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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 12:43 PM
Original message
Why are people concerned about the stock market?
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 12:44 PM by kentuck
Isn't it just the market at work? Why do all these folks that worship the marketplace have so little faith? Will not the stock market find its rightful place in the marketplace of ideas? The same goes with the banks and the auto companies. Why do we have to interfere with the holy free marketplace? Have people lost the faith?
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. If you get any sound answers, will ya give me a heads up? Wondering about it too.
The advocates of 'free market' sure want the comfort of a Nanny State when they take a hit.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. The problem is that it's taking a lot of net worth with it
That doesn't mean quite as much to someone who is still able to earn a paycheck and be reasonably sure of continuing to do so. It means a great deal to people who are older and getting ready to retire.

This is a catastrophe for a lot of people, I'm afraid, and kids coming into the workplace are going to find themselves competing for entry level, dead end jobs with old folks trying desperately to supplement an inadequate social security check.

That's why the Dow is important. It's important because pensions were gutted and workers were pushed into 401K plans as a substitute for real income in their old age. It's important because a lot of working people were using it to show their net worth so they could leverage things like homeowner loans to fix the roof or consumer loans to replace the rustbucket car.

When it goes, it takes a lot more with it than a few plutocrats.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Seems like a big hunk of that 'net worth' was smoke and mirrors at best
and outright fraud at worst.

Housing bubble? Sure. Stock bubble? why couldn't that be likely?

Not trying to be argumentative. Really would like to know why part of it could not just be that the stocks were overvalued to begin with? Brokers make $$ selling stocks. Corporations make $$ selling stocks. In a time when marketing seems to be everything, seems marketing stocks as more valuable than they actually are is not that hard to imagine.

But then, I am an idiot about money.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. You are correct.
It was a big bubble. And honest people bought into it. They believed their retirement was much more secure in the market than in low-return Treasury notes.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Actually, you're not
The commission and other fees were usually much greater than the value of the stock, itself.

The fees generated by mortgages changing hands was also the point and why the last part of the bad paper going through the system will be the least digestible part.

The fees and commissions are why any social security privatization system will fail, just like it failed in Chile. People with tiny contributions can make insurance payments into a large system but those payments get eaten up by fees in smaller systems, leaving inadequate funds after a lifetime of work. Only insurance will work, as people who are counting on pensions are about to find out.

Unfortunately, those inflated dollars are what people were counting on to keep them from spending their retirements at fast food counters and in Wal Mart. Now that they're gone, the picture is very bleak for a lot of us.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's a part of the economy, but reality is also simple: It's not the *whole* economy.
Plus, the 'free market' isn't free when (a) it's not on a level playing field, and (b) more biases are made to exploit the situation than to engender true evenness.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. OMG! Don't tell that to "the gang" at CNBC.
:P
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. Have not a clue...
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 12:54 PM by Peacetrain
Right now we are selling off overinflated issues.. brought on by 401-k's IRA's.. the people who manage those funds, people looking for a quick million playing the market, and then being played by the big boys who always win out in the end.

This is not a end to civilization, but if you are in the line of fire, getting ready to retire and everything you counted on is gone, or these companies you work for are folding ( my brother lost his job and is not working as a dishwasher at a truck stop) it is scary no doubt.

But we are not going to fold up like a cheap tent and become a country with all of its people in relocation camps.

Last year this time, I was scared spit less.. because I knew what was coming..now that it is here, well now I can start to get a little more optimistic.

Not that things are going not change overnight or even get worse.. they are.. but this is the throwing up you do at the ceramic god after a long night of partying..

The hangover is real, but it too will pass
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. When I lose money in Vegas....
I knew there was that chance. The same goes with the stock market. It has always been a gamble.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. a gamble with Ponzi on the side
The House ALWAYS wins in the end.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. People Were Told It Wasn't A Gamble
Some of the hardest hit people are those 50+...people who stashed money away in investment accounts that they were told were "safe" thanks to the "long-term health" of the stock market. Money markets, 401ks, brokerage accounts, people were told that it was foolish to keep that money in a savings account or even in a static CD when the market was always rising. I wouldn't be surprised if we learn about "financial advisors" who diverted a lot of money to these ponzi schemes and other gimmicks that promised such big returns with the promise that these investments were "insured" and all the big players were making money this way. It was too intoxicating.

Problem, Kentuck, the wheelers and dealers...brokers and bankers all but convinced people it was a sure thing.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Buyer beware - isn't that what capitalism is all about? I am truly
sorry if you lost some retirement savings, but people need to realize this was never a safe investment & even if you were told otherwise you should have read the papers you signed more closely. At some point you signed papers indicating that you knew these were not FDIC insured accounts.

How we react to this crisis is the important thing. Are you going to keep defending capitalism after this (I mean "you" collectively, not directed towards any particular poster).
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm pretty much convinced that most corporations these days are just giant
Ponzi schemes.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
10. Because Those People Have The Ability To Think More Deeply Than Such One Dimensional Nonsense.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. For such deep thinkers....
They sure know how to fuck up everything, don't they??
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Egalitariat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. Because it's a pretty good predictor of the future. Always has been.
Not perfect, but much better than any economist or government board.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. They gambled, they lost, and now there's a helluva lot of collateral damage.
All those financial "wizards" were really adept at ignoring the obvious house of cards the fortunes we're being built on.

The government has to interfere in an attempt to, at best, ease the pain. At worst, make the situation even more catastrophic.
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. Some are convinced that when the markets are doing well
it creates more jobs...but in my opinion, the markets are up when companies run lean...rather when they fire employees ...that is what they all do when they have to get higher profits...
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. Because the stock markets and the economy have been purposely conflated in the American mind.
Most of us believe that the stock market reflects the economy.


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daa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. Um, the few people that have company pensions
left, ah, where do think the companies have that money invested????????? Didn't think you knew.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. Because millions of people are losing their hard-earned money. Do you not understand that? n/t
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Earth Bound Misfit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
19. Because the 14,000+ Dow was an illusion...
The financial sector now represents 40 percent of GDP, which is to say that the exchange of paper claims to wealth is the driving force behind economic growth. The production of useful things, that actually improve people's lives and raise the standard of living, has been replaced by the trading of complex debt instruments and opaque derivative contracts. Securitization is at the very heart of Wall Street's Ponzi-finance scam. It creates profits by transforming liabilities into "cash flow" which can be sold at market. Bottom line: Factories and manufacturing are out. Toxic paper and garbage loans are in.

As ringleader of the banking fraternity, the Federal Reserve has a big stake in securitization and would like to see it succeed. Bernanke's job is to provide the liquidity and capital that's needed to put the credit markets back in order. To that end, Bernanke has spared no expense to underwrite all of the toxic loans which have presently brought the financial system to its knees. According to Bloomberg:

"The U.S. government has pledged more than $11.6 trillion on behalf of American taxpayers over the past 19 months, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Changes from the previous table, published Feb. 9, include a $787 billion economic stimulus package. The Federal Reserve has new lending commitments totaling $1.8 trillion. It expanded the Term Asset-Backed Lending Facility, or TALF, by $800 billion to $1 trillion and announced a $1 trillion Public-Private Investment Fund to buy troubled assets from banks. The U.S. Treasury also added $200 billion to its support commitment for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac…” (Bloomberg News)

There's literally no end to the Fed's generosity when it comes to providing for its friends on Wall Street. Only a small portion of Bernanke's largesse was bestowed with proper congressional authorization. Bernanke simply doesn't care if the public sees him as the unelected oligarch that he really is.

Securitization soared between 2003 and 2006 when US current account deficit skyrocketed to nearly $800 billion per year. That's when "America's banks discovered that they could borrow money cheaply from Asia and lend it out in higher-yielding domestic mortgages while using sophisticated financial engineering to wall off and strictly control their risks."(Brad Delong) The US was consuming $800 billion more per year than it was producing, but the damage remained invisible because foreign governments and investors were recycling their savings back into US Treasurys, GSE bonds (Fannie Mae), and mortgage-backed securities (MBS). It was a windfall for Wall Street that put the investment banks and hedge funds deep in the clover.


A number of economists sounded the alarm, saying that the burgeoning account imbalances were unsustainable, but the business media just brushed them off as Chicken Littles. Now, foreign investment has slowed, the credit markets are frozen, real estate is retreating and $40 trillion of wealth has drained from the global equities markets. The tremors from Wall Street's mortgage-laundering swindle have rippled through the broader economy causing an unprecedented contraction in retail, imports, durable goods, transports, high tech, electronics, and cyclicals. The unemployment roles have mushroomed while asset prices have continued to plummet. The Dow has dropped 54 percent from its peak and is sliding inexorably towards 6,000. Pessimism abounds.

snip

Until the two Bears Stearns hedge funds defaulted 19 months ago, securitization had been Wall Street's most reliable source of revenue; a real cash cow. It was the main reason that total mortgage debt jumped from $4.5 trillion in 1999 to $11 trillion in 2006; more than double in just 7 years. At the same time, the asset-backed securities (ABS) market, which packaged other types of business and consumer debt into securities, shot up by more than 500 percent to $4.5 trillion. Securitzation turned out to be the Mother Lode. The torrent of surplus capital from the savings glut in the Far East (as well as "yield seeking" insurance companies, retirement funds and investment banks) turned mortgage-backed securities and other structured investments into a multi-trillion dollar industry.

The process recycled revenue to mortgage originators where low interest rates and lax lending standards kept the volume of MBS high, but the quality low. It's clear now, that securitization created incentives for fraud by transferring credit risk from the originator of the loan to the investor. The originator makes his money on the volume of securities sold; the quality of the underlying mortgages is secondary. This week, the Wall Street Journal reported that 7 out of 10 subprime mortgages vintage 2006 will default. The failure rate proves that the system had deteriorated into little more than a scam.


It was securitization and the 25 to 1 leveraging of toxic assets at the hedge funds, investment banks and private equity firms, that brought on the current financial crisis. When trouble broke out in the subprimes, the secondary market shut down, and the flow of credit from nonbank financial institutions dried up. Unfortunately, the real economy has become addicted to easy credit and sky-high asset prices. Now that the bubble has burst, the phony prosperity of the Bush years has been wiped out in one fell swoop. The stock market has plunged to its 1996 level and housing prices are returning to the mean. The question now should be, do we really want to restore a crisis-prone credit-generating system (securitization) by providing a $1 trillion subsidy to profit-oriented hucksters who are largely responsible for the current recession?

As Barak Obama stated last week, "Credit is the economy's life-blood". It should distributed through government-owned and regulated financial institutions that operate as public utilities. Credit is everyone's business. It shouldn't be controlled by speculators.

By Mike Whitney

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9247.html

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. I don't worship it but watch it as an indicator.
But then I am uppity and cynical and like ripping scabs off wounds also.
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Ex Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
23. Because it's a leading economic indicator
you may not care whether investors are losing money. You should care what it says about the direction of the economy.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. I'm happy to see all those rich fucks lose their money.
Bet they wished they had spent it rather than "investing" it. You have a better chance in Vegas than on Wall Street. And you will get free drinks for spending your money there. What the fuck the Wall Street ever give?
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. What about the poor and middle class losing their money? Or their jobs? No care for them either?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
25. they will once again believe in the power of the free market,
but only if the government gives them enough public funds to survive that long.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. That is the really sad thing. n/t
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