Perhaps it's not a good idea to have 2/3 of your economy based on sales and service

[prolesunited]

It's not sustainable, never was, never will be. What next?

[leftstreet]

1. Why not?

:shrug:

[YOY]

2. Because a "retail economy" is dependant on nonstop profit no depressions/recessions

and frankly doesn't employ worth dick.

[leftstreet]

5. How about if 'service' and 'retail' jobs paid $50k a year?

:shrug:

[YOY]

8. Still not exportable. Unless everyone comes to your country to shop.

More specifically, still not sustainable.

Just a little more toleratable.

[prolesunited]

9. Even if you change the economic equation

it's certainly not sustainable for the environment. Honestly, how much crap do we need and why do we need to upgrade everything every few years and throw so much away?

[DJ13]

3. Sales/service jobs dont produce incomes high enough to support government

[daninthemoon]

4. production has certainly been lacking, but the real problem is that

the business of America came to be a shell game of banks and financial institutions just moving money around. Instead of banks lending to entities that produced goods and services, banks have been primarily lending to other banks in one form or another. That is what was unsustainable, and that is where we have landed.

[Cary]

6. It's fine to have 2/3 of your economy based on sales and service, if . . .

your workforce is paid sufficient wages and people don't run up unreasonable and unsustainable debt.

Average wages did not have to decline over the Bush years, or over his father's years, or over the Reagan years.

Was it an accident that average wages rose $7,500 over the Clinton years? I don't think so.

[HughBeaumont]

7. Service and Retail were never supposed to be for anyone to make a living off of. Plain and simple.

These pro-free-trade idiots thought that everything would be hunky-dory if China made all of our shit and we sold it to the people who used to make all of our shit. That would lead to "higher paying jobs" for the displaced. But hey, the rich had more than a few useful idiots who bought into this bullcrapola by making them believe they'll be rich someday too. It will trickle down. Trust us. You just GOTTA trust us.

Well, guess whut.

That, much like everything faith-based about laissez-FAIL capitalism, never materialized. The cash-and-carry bastards sold us up the river and really don't care about closing these stores, because after all . . . they got THEIRS.

This era is likely going on record to be one of the worst as far as job creation goes. It's soon going to be thirteen straight MONTHS of no jobs gained and will set new lows in jobs lost. The 12 months out of 50 since Bewsh's second term (when the first net new job was created since 2001) where the economy actually met the job churn has long been destroyed; that is, meeting the quota of 150,000 jobs per month to accommodate incoming/outgoing workers.

Maybe if the corporate idiots would have factored "WE" in this thing called "the Big Picture" instead of "ME" (meaning corporate execs and board members only), we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. You cannot replace manufacturing jobs with service jobs. You cannot do it. Overall, these jobs do not provide a decent living, decent benefits, sustainability, a tax base or purchasing power. Wages in real dollars have stagnated since 1973 thanks to this phenomenon.

Once upon a time we moved away from the Gilded Age and saw the benefit of employing workers here in decent jobs. Once upon a time, we saw the benefits of free enterprise. Once upon a time, we saw the benefit of opening up automotive plants across the nation instead of Big Box Marts.

It's a failure of colossal proportions.

[On the Road]

12. "Supposed to Be"?

There's nothing in the nature of the work that relegates service sector jobs to low wages.

Retail in Europe is largely unionized. It is possible to live a middle-class life on a retail salary. (I have a German cousin who gets by well on job in a book store.)

The US wage scale is influenced by a nonunion environment, which in turn is partly due to the fact that laws favor organizing in a few large-scale locations like steel mills. Companies with many small dispersed locations are often not feasible to organize.

What people say now about reduced employment in manufacturing used to be said about agriculture. Provided employment is well compensated and the balance of trade is not too bad, there is no reason why services can't outstrip manufacturing.

[HughBeaumont]

15. That's in Germany.

An American book store job's wages wouldn't get you out of the Parent's Basement Arms. Try getting whoever owns Borders and B&N to unionize (not that it hasn't been tried) and bring wages up to 20-22 bucks an hour. You'd be laughed out of the place.

Combine that with decades of anti-union propaganda etched in the minds of most of America, which results in their scoffing at the very idea ("18-22 bucks an hour . .. t'sell BOOKS? HA HA HA. Then I guess I should be paid a hunnert FIFTY an hour fer my office job"), since we're a nation that isn't collectively happy unless they have SOMEone to feel more superior to, and this is why you cannot make a respectable living in most service professions.

Your operative words are "Provided employment is well compensated and the balance of trade is not too bad". America has neither characteristic going for it, and as long as Friedman-loving corporatists who are in a contest to die with the most toys still run things, that isn't going to change any time soon.

[On the Road]

16. So We Are in Agreement

that the retail industry is not intrinsically poorly compensated, but is a function of how government regulates labor and business. The difference is that you would prefer to remedy that by bringing back historically unionized industries rather than by improving employment conditions for everyone.

The service industry BTW as a whole is not only represented by retail and fast food. Here is one listing of industries within the tertiary sector:

Retail & wholesale trade
Health care & social assistance
Accommodation & food services
Professional, scientific and technical services
Educational services
Finance, insurance, real estate & leasing
Transportation & warehousing
Information, culture & recreation
Public administration & defence
Other services
Business, building & other support services

A more detailed list is here. It is a very mixed bag -- keep in mind that some classifications include public utilities and telecom as well.

[leftchick]

10. it worked out well for our robber barons

same shit different era

[leftstreet]

11. Nowadays they're a little chubbier, and they don't wear hats

[leftchick]

14. barf!

:puke:

[GeorgeGist]

13. The bottom line is profits.

Products and services are just the bait.