Kucinich on Iraq Troop Withdrawal: You Can’t be In and Out at the Same Time

[BuyingThyme]

Kucinich on Iraq Troop Withdrawal: You Can’t be In and Out at the Same Time


Washington, Feb 27 -

Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), who led the effort in the House of Representatives against the war in Iraq as far back as 2002, today made the following statement after President Obama announced that the combat mission in Iraq will end by August 31, 2010. The President also indicated that between 35-50,000 troops will remain in Iraq to advise and train Iraqi security forces and protect American civilian and military personal.

“I support President Obama for taking a step in the right direction in Iraq, but I do not think that his plan goes far enough. You cannot leave combat troops in a foreign country to conduct combat operations and call it the end of the war. You can’t be in and out at the same time.

“America must determine at some point to end the occupation, close the bases and bring the troops home. We must bring a conclusion to this sorry chapter in American history where war was waged under false pretense against an innocent people. Taking troops out of Iraq should not mean more troops available for deployment in other operations.

“In February of 2007 I presented H.R. 1234, legislation that would end the war in Iraq, and the process I outlined is still necessary. We should immediately bring home American service members and contractors, convene a regional conference to prepare an international peace-keeping force and accelerate Iraq-driven reconstruction.”

Congressman Kucinich led opposition to the Joint Resolution on Iraq, known as the Iraq war resolution, beginning in 2002, and has consistently opposed funding the ongoing war.

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=112859

[ReliantJ]

1. Dennis is the man!

I feel better knowing people like him are in office.

[MadHound]

2. Once again Dennis is right

But apparently nobody is going to listen to him. Instead we'll have one more on going, simmering hot spot in Iraq for the next fifty years.

[BuyingThyme]

7. We're just going o have to do a better job this time.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. Yep, and I am proud to have voted for him. nt

[zulchzulu]

3. More political grandstanding from Kucinich... does he want more troops to die from a careless exit?

Exiting Iraq is more dangerous than entering it. Kucinich is over his head with military matters. I was against the war from the beginning, but the troops leaving there have to have it done carefully.

Part of the matter of a way to "prepare an international peace-keeping force and accelerate Iraq-driven reconstruction" involves having some of our troops there! Does Kucinich think that UN troops are not at least in some portion going to be US troops?

Should the international peace-keeping force NOT include US troops, Dennis?

[bigtree]

4. it's true that the troops are needed for any transfer to international control

But, that hasn't yet been made clear or had any accelerated commitments achieved by the administration to highlight along with their foot-dragging exit. I think if they had a more outstanding diplomatic appeal to regional actors to assume more responsibility it would make the exit appear less grudging and recalcitrant. Of course, that would include an acknowledgment of Iran's role in the aftermath (and Syria's) - something that our adversarial posture hasn't yet allowed.

[NorthCarolina]

5. Kucinich is "over his head"???

and just what do you base this statement on? What access to information do you have that would cause us to want to accept your thoughts as more credible than that of a respected US Congressman?

[BuyingThyme]

6. THREE FUCKING YEARS!

What the hell makes you think the Iraqis can't handle their own affairs? What makes you think that you and your weapons of death are so far superior to the sovereignty of the Iraqi people? Three more years of your crap?

Come on man.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. The White Man's Burden don't you know?

[zulchzulu]

21. "you and your weapons of death"

Um... take a reading comprehension course, pops.

I am and always was against the Iraq War.

I also can spot a phony and a grandstanding putz. That person is Dennis Kucinich.

Kucinich knows that it's going to take time to take the troops and weapons out. Kucinich knows that the efforts to rehabilitate Iraq's infrastructure amid an ongoing civil war (and perhaps genocidal war) is going to demand the US military working with other international forces.

Or maybe he's just fucking clueless...

[BuyingThyme]

26. If you think we should take three or more more years to get

out of Iraq, you ARE NOT, IN ANY WAY, against the Iraq War.

[zulchzulu]

32. DU's best feature is the Ignore tool

For fools like you that haven't a goddamn clue...

[BuyingThyme]

34. That doesn't made sense on any level.

Just like your take on Iraq.

[G_j]

27. I don't believe you nt

[bdab1973]

30. I know for a fact that the Iraqi military isn't ready to stand on their own...

I'm here now, advising them. Several units are at that point, where they can operate on their own. Many can operate with minimal US help, but they still need the help. The primary problem is the Iraqi leadership hierarchy. They are still in the process of organizing themselves to be most efficient. Also, there is significant tension between various groups here and the US presence actually serves to mitigate that. We're trying hard to get everyone on the same page for once, or at least in the same chapter. We're very close to success, but the Iraqis will still need significant technical expertise, mostly because for the past 20 years they haven't had anything resembling a competent security organization.

There are dozens of issues that are in work, and need time to work out. Post what you may, but unless you come over here and tour the various IA, IqAF and IP facilities, you can't really make a reasoned judgement. Obama has seen the work going on, and he gets briefed on issues that you have no clue about. He made his decision based on facts, not politics. That's a leader.

[BuyingThyme]

31. I've heard this same bullshit for five years. We've been close for five years.

If the people of Iraq are not interested in constructing a democracy in our image, we have no business forcing them to do so. Your argument is the Vietnam argument. There was no reason to invade Iraq in the first place and there is no reason to occupy that country for another three or more years.

[bdab1973]

36. We aren't creating a democracy in our image...

That's not the point here. Come on over, I'll show you around.

[BuyingThyme]

38. The "I've been there" argument doesn't fly.

Generally, the people who have been there are demonstrably the most out of touch and least informed.

[bdab1973]

46. "The people who have been there...are...the most out of touch and least informed"

I'm just chuckling at that statement. I mean, how do you reply to such an ignorant statement?

[BuyingThyme]

48. It's just the plain truth.

The people serving there probably still believe we found WMD.

The people sent on political missions there think freedom is on the march.

The words of the "generals on the ground" is worth as much as the shit on the ground.

[bdab1973]

51. Sounds like you're the one buying the propaganda...

No one here believes we found WMD. Everyone here is hopeful that freedom will be within reach soon, but it's on "on the march". And I am not a General, I am a Captain working at the unit level, one-on-one with Iraqis on a daily basis.

Read my post where I answered someone else's question, just below this thread.

[BuyingThyme]

53. I read it. You think you're there to help the Iraqis.

You're not. You're there to remake their country in your image.

[bdab1973]

54. Again, you're wrong

If you actually READ what I was typing in that post, you'd read about the fact that it takes an in-depth understanding of their culture to develop assistance that fits their needs. What you speak of is something that we try very hard NOT to do, it's called "mirroring". But then again, what do I know, I obviously have no idea what's going on here...you have all the knowledge from your computer thousands of miles away...ugh.

[BuyingThyme]

57. They don't need your assistance.

They need you to go away.

[bdab1973]

59. You sure do think you know it all, being that you've never met any of them...

Some of us in this unit are not going to be replaced (part of the plan to send them out on their own). The squadron commander (Iraqi commander) protested the move.

The government of Iraq has asked us to continue and assist them as advisors. Obama decided to oblige them. Your opinion is noted.

[BuyingThyme]

60. You are occupying their country.

They have a puppet government.

These are not opinions.

[bdab1973]

62. Gee, thanks for the info...[/sarcasm]

Uh, yeah, I know their country is occupied...I'm kinda here now, in their country...

However, my job is to "unoccupy" their country, and at least leave them with a remote chance of avoiding civil war or having Iran extend itself into Iraq (and perhaps having troubles up north too).

As for the puppet government remark, I don't know...ask they guys that voted for the people in power. I didn't vote for anyone, neither did anyone else here that wears a US flag. They did most of the election stuff themselves, including most of the security. But I'm sure you have an answer for that too...despite me assisting them with election transportation, I probably don't know as much as you do about how they feel about the election, because obviously you've read about it on the internet.

[Common Sense Party]

76. Amazing how armchair experts thousands of miles removed from

the problem have it ALL figured out and know what's going on far better than people who are neck deep in it.

Thanks for what you're doing, and for your patience.

[BuyingThyme]

78. It's amazing the those armchair experts have been right every step of the way

but you're still swayed by the people who have been wrong at every turn.

[bdab1973]

84. I beg to differ...

You are wrong about the Iraqi military needing help.

[Greyhound]

80. Are you saying that the American military is laughably incompetent,

deliberately disobeying orders, or that the Iraqi military is made up of drooling idiots?

We've supposedly been training these people for over five years. Our most elite special forces units don't train for that long. The "terrorists" don't seem to have as much trouble training their forces.

[bdab1973]

82. Try reading some of my posts again...

Some units that have been trained for a longer period of time are able to operate on their own (ours is almost to that point). Others have only recently been stood up. In addition, they are buying new equipment that they are unfamiliar with...they recently bought a bunch of King Air 350s to fly recon missions with, and since no one in the Iraqi Air Force knows how to fly them, we're teaching them how to operate those aircraft.

There are many IA and IqAF units that are very competent. But many are still in development.

[Greyhound]

86. I've read them and you have not answered the question. For five years

we've been "training the Iraqi forces to stand up so that we can stand down" (you even use the doublespeak). Iraq is approximately the size and population to California, and after five years they are still not ready to defend themselves. The very idea that this is anything other than one of three options is laughable on it's face.

Incompetence, dereliction, or genetic defectives?

OTOH, it is also quite possible that you've (the military, not you personally) been over there for the single purpose of overseeing and protecting the systematic looting of a nation. Why would you consistently defend this ongoing crime spree? Is that why you joined?

[bvar22]

12. Oh really ?

"Exiting Iraq is more dangerous than entering it."
What do you base this on besides unsupported rumor perpetuated by War Profiteers?

*Pull back all forces to protected positions inside the "permanent" bases.

*Give Saddam's Old Palace (Green Zone) back to the Iraqi People.

*Announce to all "We are LEAVING, and will NOT fire unless fired upon.

*Provide overwhelming overhead protection from Spookys and other Air Resources.

*Load them Up, and Move them Out to exit staging bases in Kuwait.

There is a greater probability of a safe, quick exit than a scenario of "leaving is more dangerous than invading".

The only scenario more dangerous is attempting to cut our forces in half, AND keep the permanent Occupation going.

[zulchzulu]

22. Really?

"Exiting Iraq is more dangerous than entering it."
What do you base this on besides unsupported rumor perpetuated by War Profiteers?

Understanding BASIC military maneuvers allows one to see that leaving is harder than entering.

*Pull back all forces to protected positions inside the "permanent" bases.

*Give Saddam's Old Palace (Green Zone) back to the Iraqi People.

What faction of Iraqi people? The Sunni? The Shia? Without googleing, tell me which faction Saddam was/

*Announce to all "We are LEAVING, and will NOT fire unless fired upon.

OK. Now you're seeing what I'm talking about. The troops WILL be fired upon if they leave in a careless manner.

*Provide overwhelming overhead protection from Spookys and other Air Resources.

Those are military forces, right?

*Load them Up, and Move them Out to exit staging bases in Kuwait.

Thank you, Captain Obvious!

There is a greater probability of a safe, quick exit than a scenario of "leaving is more dangerous than invading".

The only scenario more dangerous is attempting to cut our forces in half, AND keep the permanent Occupation going.

The troops will leave in 2011. Is that a "permanent Occupation"?

[rug]

25. I'm sure everyone killed in Iraq in the next 18 months will die carefully.

[bdab1973]

28. More will die if we just up and leave...

I'm here now, and the Iraqis I advise do not want us to just pack our bags and leave. They still need significant help after we went in and basically disbanded and fired their government and military almost 6 years ago. There's a bunch of issues that still need to be worked out, or else the violence will escalated. The US presence is actually keeping much of that bottled up for now while they try and work political fixes. And Iran...well, let's just say they aren't being helpful and there's conclusive evidence they have been testing the Iran-Iraq border militarily.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. No problem. We can call the occupation "residual forces" and the dead "collateral damage".

Worked for Nixon...kind of.

[Individualist]

10. Straight talk...

One of the things I love about Dennis.

[bvar22]

11. 50,000 "residual force".....

...does NOT sound like "ending the WAR" to me.
It sounds like just giving it another name.


http://www.standupcongress.org/content/index.php

[bdab1973]

29. Most will be advisors...like myself

They will not have a direct combat role, but will be focused on making the Iraqi security agencies capable of dealing with not just internal threats but external as well. I won't go into details, but the Iraqis are very afraid of Iran because of certain events that have transpired here in recent times. I'm sure once Obama saw the real story, he agreed to the less hurried exit. He's not an idiot, and I applaud him for making a decision based on facts and not political expediency.

[BuyingThyme]

35. Thanks for your super-secret bullshit post.

[bdab1973]

37. Bullshit? I guess you're better informed than someone who's here in Iraq

[BuyingThyme]

40. That's true almost as a rule.

From propagandized troops, to generals on the ground.

[bdab1973]

47. Propagandized?

I work directly with Iraqis, first-hand. I see what they are capable of, and what they aren't capable of. I see what help they ask me for on a daily basis. I know their names, who their families are, and I know many of them that lost family and friends in this war to insurgents. If you want to call that "propaganda", fine...but then I don't know what to call the second, third and fourth-hand stories you read online either. Maybe "uber-propaganda"?

[BuyingThyme]

49. Why don't you know that they're capable of running their own country?

[Common Sense Party]

77. That's utter bullshit.

[BuyingThyme]

79. No, that's the truth.

The two least informed demographics are American troops and viewers of Fox News.

[bdab1973]

83. And I bet you feel that...

American officers are the least educated as well, correct?

[BuyingThyme]

85. I've never heard that, but if you say so.

[pampango]

42. Thanks for the posts. Most of us have our minds made up, one way or the other,

but it's always good to get more information about something as important as this.

Do you get the impression that corruption and sectarianism will win in the end? From afar, Iraqis seem to have a more developed sense of civil society than some others who have endured dictatorship and war which can damage the ability of different groups to coexist. As with any people I'm sure that the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in peace and prosperity, but that is often difficult to achieve with powerful politicians caring more about their own interests and those of their group than they do the interests of the people as a whole.

[bdab1973]

50. To answer some of your questions...

I do think that sectarianism will eventually subside, once the political process becomes entrenched and accepted, as it is rapidly becoming so. As for the corruption, I can only say that this is an Arab country. Well, it's not just Arabs, but the culture over here, be it Arab, Persian, Turkoman, Assyrian, Chaldean or what have you, revolves around a paternal system based on nepotism and social connections. People are advanced based on who they are, not if they are qualified. People get more or less based on their cultural standing, not based on personal merit. By Western standards, that would amount to corruption. But by the local standard, it's normal.

As a rule, the people here complain about everything. I liken it to a high-school soap opera. Perhaps that's a demeaning way of seeing it, but I'm from the west and that's just how it seems to me. To them, running around and telling on their friends behind their backs, complaining about everything and calling everyone around them "corrupt" despite doing the same behavior themselves is just being an Arab. It's not a racist slant, it's just how it is...it's a huge cultural divide that often drives Western views of whether or not we're making progress here.

Once you arrive here and get through the cultural "wall", you start to develop goals and expectations for THEM, not based on Western values. As a Western-trained pilot, I would beat my head against the wall daily if these guys were in my squadron. But seeing it from an Iraqi point of view, they are all doing fine, given their cultural values, limitations and expectations. Our squadron is the most ahead, and they pretty much fly on their own on a regular basis. Other squadrons are just being formed and still have a lot of work to accomplish before they can safely go out there and perform without assistance. The same with the Army...some units can operate independently, others require more help because they are newly formed, or are acquiring equipment that's new to Iraq.

As for sectarianism, they all make fun of each other for being Sunni, Shia, Kurd, Turk or whatever. Most of the time it's in good humor, but I've seen a few fist fights break out, and on one occasion both the guys involved came to me separately to tell me that the other is going to turn them into a Shia militia or Al Qaeda...that of course would never happen (because it would likely get them killed in the process), but it highlights the "drama show" they put on. Much of the sectarian fighting is stoked by outside groups with their own intentions. The militias (backed by Iran) and al Qaeda all have separate goals to ensure Iraq stays divided. I will say that today, in February 2009, Iraq is much less divided than it was the last time I was here in 2006.

There are still major hurdles ahead, and the Iraqis I work with feel that if the US leaves, then all the gains made in the past couple years will disappear, because both Iran and the terror organizations will likely press the attack. For this reason, we must make sure the Iraqis are capable of defending themselves, and to do so without dividing along ethnic and sectarian lines. In all the squadrons I've been around, there are Iraqis of all backgrounds working together. That is becoming the norm rather than the exception again, but it could easily change if they are left without being able to hold the high ground.

With regard to the politicians in Iraq...as I said, things here work based on who you are rather than what you know. People are rewarded with cash. I've seen entire shipments of jackets destined for the rank-and-file in the squadrons get distributed among the leadership first. Again, this is Iraq, and that's how things are. Of course the low-level Iraqis get pissed, but in the end, when their leadership arrives, they kiss their ass like I've never seen. And I guarantee you that if the guys complaining get their chance at being on top, they'd do things the same way. It's ingrained in their culture, because that's also how their familial clans operate as well. We've already had to turn away several guys from getting trained in the airplanes we operate because they simply don't have the background to be successful. But the Iraqi hierarchy wanted them to come to our squadron because they knew someone up high, versus them being the best trained to do the job.

I think the new generation of Iraqis entering the military, once they attain positions of power, will be ready to institute changes. I see that those younger guys tend to be more willing to adopt a more western style of doing things, and put greater emphasis on performance and merit than position and status. But it will take a while...but not too long. Most of the guys that cling to the old way of doing things are within 5-10 years of retirement, and although the Iraqi military will never operate 100% like a western military, they will most likely have a cultural transition once the new post-Saddam generation begins to assume the reigns within the government and the military. But...we've got to help them until they get there.

[Fireweed247]

13. It is time to hit the streets again

Bush had no problem ignoring us, but we need to stand up to Obama now, and demand an end to all of the bullshit wars!

I think it would look really bad if Obama ignored US, and I don't think that he would if we made ourselves seen and heard.

I think this goes the same for single payer health care. WE need to start screaming loudly. We must demand that Obama listen to WE THE PEOPLE! We are not as stupid as they like to think.

[BuyingThyme]

14. Yep.

But people have been fooled. Barack Obama is a very good liar.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. It would be interesting to see if Obama

responded to protests or if he is as tone deaf as Bush.

[leftofthedial]

15. no. but they can give you the in and out and try to convince you they're making ice cream

[BuyingThyme]

16. kcik

[EraOfResponsibility]

17. You're cool, Dennis, but STFU

:eyes:

[BuyingThyme]

20. Why should he not continue to tell the simple truth?

[anigbrowl]

23. Talk is cheap. Delivery is expensive.

Kucinich can run his mouth all day on this kind of thing because he knows he'll never be tasked with actually implementing any of it. I don't have all that much respect for him, I think he plays on people's idealism to drawn campaign contributions from a national audience and little more.

[BuyingThyme]

24. Democrats easily could have put a stop to this crap by now.

Kucinich's comments are measured and totally appropriate.

[OnyxCollie]

33. Oil companies will not be denied.

The whole Iraq war venture was for the benefit of oil companies. Capitalistic imperialism under the guise of realist national security protection. Obama can try to put a happy face on this, but until the hydrocarbon law is finalized and the product sharing agreements are put into effect, the US is NOT leaving Iraq.

[Greyhound]

81. Afghanistan as well.

Amazing how gullible we, as a nation, are. I really don't think any other people are so easily fooled as Americans.

[tuckessee]

39. Somebody forgot serve Dennis his kool aid.

Or maybe DU'ers drank it all up and left none for anybody else.

[BuyingThyme]

41. When did very basic truths become Kool-Aid?

[tuckessee]

43. What "basic truth"?

BTW, at what point do these wars stop being W's Wars and become Obama's Wars?

[BuyingThyme]

44. The basic truth that 50K troops in Iraq doing combat operations

is neither a withdrawal from Iraq nor a cessation of combat operations.

[bdab1973]

55. My position is one of those that will stay...

...I'm an advisor. And I do not participate in combat operations.

[BuyingThyme]

58. Of course not. You just show them where to drop the bombs.

[bdab1973]

61. You really have no idea what I teach them, do you?

I'll just let you keep digging your hole here, because obviously someone of your intellect knows my job better than I do. I'll just give you a hint: No, I don't even show them where to drop bombs.

[BuyingThyme]

64. No, I don't know.

You use it as a little game because simple honesty does not serve you.

[bdab1973]

68. It might be a snarky internet "game" to you, but it's not a "game" to me...

You accuse me of playing "games" and being a liar, when you just posted a line saying I teach people to drop bombs. When I call you out on your ignorance, you resort to the old fall-back of slander.

This is not a game. It's not a political football for you and your friends to toss back and forth and discuss over the water cooler. The guys I work with have sacrificed quite a bit to be here. They believe in what they are doing, and we sacrifice our own time and effort to make sure they are successful, and ultimately, so we can leave.

I ask you if you know what I teach because it only shows your glaring lack of education on the fine details of what's going on over here, and the fact that your opinions are built on internet stories and banter on a message board, none of which serves as a replacement for the actual ground truth. Perhaps you didn't know that the guys I teach evacuated wounded when the government handed the Iranian-backed Shia militias a defeat in Basrah. Perhaps you didn't know they recently delivered tons of humanitarian aid donated to the Palestinians on behalf of the Iraqi government a couple months ago, all because we trained and taught them how to do their jobs. Perhaps you didn't know that ballots were securely collected and counted using air transportation to avoid insurgents invalidating the results with a car bomb, and those ballots were flown by the guys I trained.

I'm sure you hold the opinion that all those threats I talk about are nonsense. I would be willing to bet money that you feel the talk about Iran stirring up trouble and having a presence and violating Iraqi territory is just hubris from the propaganda masters. But you'd be wrong, because unlike you, I've been witness to some of Iran's treachery here. The Iraqis I know and work with talk often about their fear of Iran.

So go ahead, think this is a game. Think about this issue entirely in political terms...pro-war versus anti-war...keep thinking along those simplistic idiotic lines.

I am very thankful that Obama doesn't want to play games, and isn't going to politicize this issue like you have.

[BuyingThyme]

69. You're still playing your game.

And you've convinced yourself that your occupation of Iraq is more legitimate than Iran's interest in Iraq. Guess what: It's not.

[bdab1973]

71. I guess you're right...

The one deployed in Iraq and working with the Iraqi people is the one playing a game. Fun game.

[BuyingThyme]

72. Whether or not you want to say what you do, I don't care.

I don't care for your game.

[bdab1973]

73. I don't see how my job is a "game", but to each his/her own.

[bdab1973]

56. My position is one of those that will stay...

...I'm an advisor. And I do not participate in combat operations.

[tuckessee]

74. We're on the same page.

The confusion stems from my not putting "pro-war" in front of "DU'ers" in post #39. :)

[BuyingThyme]

75. A majority of DUers are now pro war.

[BuyingThyme]

45. On second look, I think I misinterpreted your post.

I thought you were identifying Dennis as a Kool-Aid drinker.

:hi:

[Smith_3]

52. Giggidy gooo.

[Raskolnik]

63. Kucinich: The perfect should always be the sworn enemy of the good.

If I remember correctly, Kucinich voted *against* a phased withdrawl of our troops several years ago that would have resulted in us being out of Iraq by now. How did that work out for you, Dennis?

[BuyingThyme]

65. Yes, Dennis is responsible for keeping troops in Iraq.

What a maroon.

[Raskolnik]

66. He certainly isn't "responsible," but neither is he particularly helpful in getting them out.

He has been consistently opposed to compromise solutions that get the vast majority of our troops out of Iraq.

In my opinion, he has demonstrated that he would rather appear ideologically consistent/pure than actually accomplish a goal.

[BuyingThyme]

67. Barack Obama is that compromise of which you speak.

And I think Dennis was correct in opposing it.

[bdab1973]

70. You mean put politics over viable solutions?

Hmmm, I would never have guessed...our politicians would NEVER do that.