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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:09 PM
Original message
The UN, PETA, and Scientific American on the devastating consequences of eating meat
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=20772&Cr=global&Cr1=environment

29 November 2006 – Cattle-rearing generates more global warming greenhouse gases, as measured in CO2 equivalent, than transportation, and smarter production methods, including improved animal diets to reduce enteric fermentation and consequent methane emissions, are urgently needed, according to a new United Nations report released today.

“Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today’s most serious environmental problems,” senior UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) official Henning Steinfeld said. “Urgent action is required to remedy the situation.”

<edit>

Livestock now use 30 per cent of the earth’s entire land surface, mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 per cent of the global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 per cent of former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.

At the same time herds cause wide-scale land degradation, with about 20 per cent of pastures considered degraded through overgrazing, compaction and erosion. This figure is even higher in the drylands where inappropriate policies and inadequate livestock management contribute to advancing desertification.

The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the earth’s increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other things to water pollution from animal wastes, antibiotics and hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used to spray feed crops.

more...

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-greenhouse-hamburger

Most of us are aware that our cars, our coal-generated electric power and even our cement factories adversely affect the environment. Until recently, however, the foods we eat had gotten a pass in the discussion. Yet according to a 2006 report by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), our diets and, specifically, the meat in them cause more greenhouse gases carbon dioxide (CO2), methane, nitrous oxide, and the like to spew into the atmosphere than either transportation or industry. (Greenhouse gases trap solar energy, thereby warming the earth's surface. Because gases vary in greenhouse potency, every greenhouse gas is usually expressed as an amount of CO2 with the same global-warming potential.)

The FAO report found that current production levels of meat contribute between 14 and 22 percent of the 36 billion tons of "CO2-equivalent" greenhouse gases the world produces every year. It turns out that producing half a pound of hamburger for someone's lunch a patty of meat the size of two decks of cards releases as much greenhouse gas into the atmosphere as driving a 3,000-pound car nearly 10 miles.

In truth, every food we consume, vegetables and fruits included, incurs hidden environmental costs: transportation, refrigeration and fuel for farming, as well as methane emissions from plants and animals, all lead to a buildup of atmospheric greenhouse gases. Take asparagus: in a report prepared for the city of Seattle, Daniel J. Morgan of the University of Washington and his co-workers found that growing just half a pound of the vegetable in Peru emits greenhouse gases equivalent to 1.2 ounces of CO2 as a result of applying insecticide and fertilizer, pumping water and running heavy, gas-guzzling farm equipment. To refrigerate and transport the vegetable to an American dinner table generates another two ounces of CO2-equivalent greenhouse gases, for a total CO2 equivalent of 3.2 ounces.

But that is nothing compared to beef. In 1999 Susan Subak, an ecological economist then at the University of East Anglia in England, found that, depending on the production method, cows emit between 2.5 and 4.7 ounces of methane for each pound of beef they produce. Because methane has roughly 23 times the global-warming potential of CO2, those emissions are the equivalent of releasing between 3.6 and 6.8 pounds of CO2 into the atmosphere for each pound of beef produced.

more...

http://blog.peta.org/archives/global_warming/

<edit>

More than Just CO2

Raising animals for their flesh, eggs, and milk is one of the world’s leading emitters of carbon dioxide (CO2). But global warming is caused by more than just CO2. Animal agriculture is the leading source of methane and nitrous oxide emissions, which—combined with carbon dioxide—causes the vast majority of global warming.

Methane: The billions of farmed animals crammed into factory farms produce enormous amounts of methane, both during digestion and from the acres of cesspools filled with feces that they excrete. Methane is more than 20 times as powerful as carbon dioxide at trapping heat in our atmosphere.5 Statistics from the Environmental Protection Agency show that animal agriculture is the number one source of methane emissions in the U.S.6

Nitrous Oxide: Nitrous oxide is about 300 times more potent as a global warming gas than carbon dioxide. According to the U.N., the meat, egg, and dairy industries account for a staggering 65 percent of worldwide nitrous oxide emissions.7

more...
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ummm...steak.
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 01:11 PM by jmg257
Now I know what to cook for dinner tonight.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. What a great seat I got for this one.
:popcorn:
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MrsBrady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
51. you like to get in for a good seat early, don't you.
:rofl:
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. The only cool vegatrian I have ever met refused to eat meat because she
was appalled at how something like 70% of our grain supply was being used to feed cattle instead of people.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. THERE! That is THE reason for going veg[etari]an.
But, in that vein, eating less meat is enough -- not necessarily none.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. The only cool one, eh?
I'll log in again, just to make sure I'm not on a Freeper board.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
52. We haven't met
so I'll let that go. *sigh* :yoiks:
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
68. when you get a chance, look up the difference between "dent" corn and "table" corn...
humans don't eat dent corn, the largest variety of corn grown on this planet. that is where that 70% number comes from.

cows eat dent corn. and they make plastics and shit from dent corn. but humans can't eat it.

wait. i will take that back. dent corn is used to produce high-fructose corn syrup, HFCS. and that's a great thing, yeah?

ask your vegetarian buddy about that...



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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #68
92. What?
And let me say, I've spent most of my life surrounded by dent corn, so, yes, I know what it is. But I don't get your point. If people weren't eating meat, which is fed dent corn, the land used to grown dent corn would be used to grow something else...like food.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. and all of the hormones pumped into the animals is giving men breasts


girls are bleeding sooner, as soon as age 8! and girls are developing larger and larger breasts.

just to name one thing bad about meat.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. And we should have a problem with larger and larger breasts because....??
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 01:21 PM by Gman
like that's a bad thing?

I just thought it was the water.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
55. I sure hope you're not serious.
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 09:00 PM by Kitty Herder
First, it sounds like you're making light of this issue and it's not an insignificant one. Life is extremely difficult emotionally for girls who develop early. I should know; I was one. There are also serious health risks, such as breast cancer, resulting from the longer exposure to estrogen over a lifetime.

Second, large breasts are a health issue. They cause very real back problems. They can create serious self-esteem issues, too.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
85. true, very true


look what they have done to the poor cows. now with udders so big the cow has trouble getting around.

extra large breasts hinder.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. I am now even more strongly in favor of meat. nt
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is pretty much indisputable
The environment can't sustain a meat-rich diet for everyone, or even most. Total carno-gluttony and total vegetarianism are pretty much equally no-go, since the former is so damaging and the latter would require a mass genocide of livestock. A huge gradual cut in demand would probably be the best thing for all concerned.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ah the monthly anti-meat thread.
Do we need to do better in how we obtain our meat? Yes.

Do we all need to become Vegans? No.

I predict this thread will devolve into a mess of "mmmm steak" and "you are a bloodthristy murdering bastard" posts.

:popcorn:
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Beurre noise yet?
(worst pun ever)

:hide:
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Is it that time already?
Shit, that means the gun control debate is next week.

Already?

Damn 28-day months...
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I thought next week was pit bulls and breast-feeding.............
It's also anti-cop day ! Hurray!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Lemme look,
Wait, next week is double-booked with Easter next month.

Religion gets an extra two weeks this month...
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. yesterday was pitbulls.
Try to keep up sheesh!


:hug:
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I thought yesterday it was cheese sandwiches.....
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 02:22 PM by Marrah_G
I am not worthy, I am not worthy!

Note: cheese sandwiches ARE vegetarian, but apparently are bad for you especially when served with milk and fruit.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Cheese sandwiches...that was a special annual Flame Edition
:evilgrin:
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. NO! NO! NO!
Next week is crying babies who smoke at Applebee's and don't tip waitstaff!
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. It's
the Olive Garden for Jeebus's sake. :eyes:
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. So sayeth the Queen!
I bow to your superiority, your highness!
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Lost in CT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
61. I've been trying to switch it to Golden Corral to no avail...
I guess we need more customers slapping each other to make the news there.
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Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
78. You just made me grin :D
:hug:
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Wish I could recommend your post`
because it's spot on...
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. I could always do a pro foie gras post and really stir the pot.
:beer: :popcorn: :beer:
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. let me be the first meat eater to say ---- EWWWWWW
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.
Of course if you don't like any kind of liver, I do understand.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. ewww ewww ewwwwwww
I like raw beef.... I like raw fish.... However just the thought of the textureof raw swollen liver makes me gag!
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. It's okay .... I won't say the "FG" words again. Calm down, have a nice glass of wine
Take it easy.

Bacon, potatoes, Bacon, onions, Bacon, Cheese.

There, is that better?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. mmmmmmm........bacon .........mmmmm
I love you.......
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. See, I knew you'd feel better.
I'm cooking cassoulet this weekend for twenty six - lots of pork, some lamb and duck confit along with beans.

Plus two tarte tatin.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. Yes the subject line is misleading
It isn't the EATING of the meat they're talking about, but--like you said--the way we raise and treat animals.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Right. It should be "of the meat-production industry," not "of eating meat."
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Yes- and they are using it to promote their cause.
It is a convenient means in which to approach a certain style of living they have and want to insist on others having.

Factually much of it is correct...the intent in posting it is where it becomes dishonest.

It's something most of us do at one point or another when arguing for the causes we feel are most important.



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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
49. How do we raise animals so that 8 billion humans can eat like DU carnivores without
the environmental devastation described by the articles?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. good question nt
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #49
66. all 8 million don't like meat !
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. I was responding to the claim one can divorce the raising of meat from the consumption of meat. It
seems to me that that simply can't be done. The mass production and mass consumption go together. If one is going to argue that the articles are talking only about the raising of meat and not its consumption (they're not, by the way), how can one raise meat for so many people without the adverse consequences described by the articles?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. Personally I think the amount does need to be cut down
I would like to see meat be more local and be organic. In the last year we have cut own on it alot. More potatoes and carrots...less meat per meal. Not in any way going vegatarian, just trying to learn to live a more sustainable life.

My real issue is the real reason behind the posting of the articles. It's not posted because of concern for the environment. It is yet another thinly veiled attempt at pressuring people into embracing a lifestyle that they have deemed to be the "correct" one. It's obnoxious, we see it over and over.

It's like the anti-choice crowd. I see them every morning of my life picketing a mile from my house. The signs all say "pray to end abortion" but I know what they REALLY mean is "legislate to remove women's privacy and healthcare choices". I know that "pro-life" really means "anti-woman, pro-fetus, anti-birth control".
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #70
79. The assumption in equating them is that the only way
to change one is to change the other. That's not true.

We can change the way we raise animals for food (not just cattle but all animals) that have a far less devastating impact on the environment. For example, organic environments for grass grazing beef (whether for dairy production or meat) are better for the animal, better for the environment, don't consume grains or petroleum products (gasoline for equipment, fertilizers, etc.) on even close to the same level and reduce the incidence of disease caused by closely housing animals which reduces the need for antibiotics.

But it's just so much easier to say the only solution is to stop eating meat (and by extrapolation, dairy products) than to address the real issues behind food production of all kinds.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. That's not the assumption.
The assumption is it's unlikely that the meat industry will or will be able to adopt the reforms you suggest if the demand for meat continues at its current level or, given population increase, increases. Reducing the consumption of meat would appear to be the quickest way to address the environmental devastation caused by eating meat.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
31. The GOP has their finger-waggy fuck police, we've got our finger-waggy Fork police.
I suspect the subconscious motivations are similar.

(For the record, I haven't eaten red meat for over a decade.)
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. The GOP has their gimme-gimme lower taxes police, we've got our gimme-gimme more meat police.
I suspect the subconscious motivations are similar.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
117. Funny, like I said, I haven't eaten red meat in over a decade.
I occasionally eat free range poultry or sustainable fish, but even that isn't as much as I used to.

So, how that translates to "gimme gimme more meat", I have no idea.


Odd, too, that I reduced my intake on that stuff on my own, with no help from hair-pulling PETA types who feel the need to compare Col. Sanders to Hitler.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Funny, I haven't policed anyone's fork in over a decade.
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 04:06 PM by Karmadillo
Several decades, in fact. Never, if we were going to be accurate. Odd that you would attempt to equate the posting of facts detailing the destruction caused by the mass production/consumption of meat with right wing efforts to regulate sex. I'm not sure I see the connection. Maybe you could elaborate?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. No, I'm drawing a distinction between the unarguable environmental impacts from, say, beef farming
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 06:33 PM by Warren DeMontague
and the 'no one should eat meat, under any circumstances, ever' agenda which is pushed by a small minority of PETA supporters.

One is a legitimate scientific point of fact, another distorts that point of fact to promote an agenda which has everything to do with a moral opinion, i.e. all animals deserve full equal rights as people (similar, in fact, to the moral opinion that says a single celled, fertilized human egg deserves full equal rights) and really isn't about the environment at all.

Certainly, the environmental impacts of beef farming, in particular, are unarguable. As noted in Scientific American. But it's disingenuous to pretend that now PETA is all warm and fuzzy with the viewpoints of SciAm--- for instance, PETA is perfectly happy arguing that it's more important to protect rats in laboratories than it is to get potentially lifesaving drugs to human children. That's a fact. I'm glad they've decided to be pro-science in this one, exceptional instance, however it's valid to point out that that's really not what they're about-- they are only "pro science" and "pro environment" as far as it suits their agenda.

If saving the environment meant advocating that humans eat a shitload more beef, I highly doubt PETA as an organization would give two shits about it.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. Sure sounds like PETA is in agreement with Scientific American on this issue. Read the OP.
You're the one who attempted to dismiss a thread about the environmental devastation caused by meat production/consumption as something no different from rightwing efforts to regulate sex. Interesting you have such hatred for the hypothetical evils of PETA but can't seem to muster a single obscenity in the direction of those who are actually causing extreme, irrational damage on a global scale. Why is that?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. That's what I said.
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 07:19 PM by Warren DeMontague
On this issue, they're okay with science. If science involves testing potentially lifesaving drugs on rats, they're neo-luddites. If they think they can make a point about eating chicken by disrespecting people's relatives who died in the Holocaust (like mine), they'll do that. That's not "hypothetical", that's a fairly recent "consciousness raising" campaign. In short, PETA can fuck off. Yes, I have a lot of obscenities for them. If you want me to spew obscenities at everyone who is responsible for environmental damage to planet Earth, by my count there are approximately 6 Billion of us.

Am I horribly angry at people who eat meat? No. Am I horribly angry at the internal combustion engine, for that matter? No. The environmental challenges we face (a bad thing) are a direct outgrowth of our technological advancement as a civilized species (overall, a good thing) .. we need to find solutions to our environmental problems, starting first and foremost with sustainable, renewable ways to power our shit. That's the challenge, no matter how much some folks may want to make it a moral crusade against eating meat.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. Issue obscenities as you please. It's not my concern.
I don't want to feed your PETA hatred thing, but you should know it was Nobel prize winning author Isaac Singer, whose mother, brother, and many extended family members died in the Holocaust, who much earlier made the comparison between the Holocaust and our treatment of animals. I'm sure he meant no disrespect to those who died in the Holocaust, just as PETA meant no disrespect.

Epigraph

In his thoughts, Herman spoke a eulogy for the mouse
who had shared a portion of her life with him and who,
because of him, had left this earth. "What do they
know--all these scholars, all these philosophers, all
the leaders of the world--about such as you? They have
convinced themselves that man, the worst transgressor
of all the species, is the crown of creation. All other
creatures were created merely to provide him with food,
pelts, to be tormented, exterminated. In relation to
them, all people are Nazis; for the animals it is an
eternal Treblinka.

--Isaac Bashevis Singer, "The Letter Writer"

Again, it's interesting you have such anger for PETA while you go to such lengths to absolve those responsible for environmental devastation caused by the mass production/consumption of meat. Everybody's transgressed against the environment, right? So no need to get worked up about any particular instance. You choose, instead, to work youself up about PETA as if their advocacy for animals is a greater threat to humankind. Meat eating sure seems to require a lot rationalization.



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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. Don't you dare try to tell me I don't have a right to be offended by that ad campaign.
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 04:47 PM by Warren DeMontague
"I'm sure he meant no disrespect to those who died in the Holocaust, just as PETA meant no disrespect. "

Well, a lot of people found it incredibly fucking disrespectful. Not just me.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/02/28/peta.holocaust/

I'm not going to any "lengths" to "absolve" anyone for environmental devastation because I'm not hung up on some idea of these things being "sins" that need "absolving". As I said. Our environmental problems (get it? problems... not "grievous sins against the righteous order of things") are largely an outgrowth of our technological advancement as a species which is, to my mind, a net gain for humanity and the planet. We need to use the same brains that gave us the internal combustion engine to solve our energy needs, primarily.

I'm not trying to "rationalize" anything, because I ALREADY HARDLY EVER EAT MEAT. Guess you missed that. One can eat a mostly plant-based, sustainable diet and still think PETA is full of shit. Go figure.

Hey, since you're so interested in "going such lengths" to "absolve" (your words) PETA for their idiotic stances, why not justify the mindset that places the welfare of a lab rat over the welfare of a sick kid? :shrug:
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #123
128. Given your PETA hatred thing,
I don't see any possible way you could avoid being offended by the PETA campaign. I was simply pointing out they, like Singer, meant no disrespect. Obviously, you have a right to work yourself up over into a tizzy over everything PETA related, just as it's obviously your right to rationalize the massive environmental devastation caused by meat production/consumption as nothing more than a symptom of progress and fodder for our big problem solving brains. After all, those brains "gave us the internal combustion engine." Mass extinctions? Global warming? No sweat. Just bumps on the road to big brain utopia.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #119
124. Nice cherry-picking.
for instance, PETA is perfectly happy arguing that it's more important to protect rats in laboratories than it is to get potentially lifesaving drugs to human children. That's a fact.


It's also a fact that obvious species-specific differences in anatomy, biochemistry, physiology, pharmacokinetics, and toxic responses renders the bulk of vivisection obsolete.

But vivisection is a multi-billion dollar industry, so we'll keep sacrificing countless animals at the altar of "Science"--regardless of whether or not those results are obtained in the most efficient, applicable, and humane way possible.

Pro-vivisectionists always try to frame the debate in terms of "a useless mouse vs. your child's health"--but I wonder why they never bring up the horrible history of LD-50 tests in the cosmetics industry. Gosh, that seems almost disingenuous!

:eyes:
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
47. You said it.
It's never enough to argue for common sense solutions, we must go to the barricades!

Pass the popcorn would ya?
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
58. Ah Wisdom ...ty
We will see the two sides of the same coin as you poin out. One side will defend their meat eating issues without ever really looking at the rational side of not eating meat as a political and moral statement.

Then there will be the other tired over moralistic "animal rights" uber vegetarian irrationalists who will condemn anyone for eating a hamburger or wearing leather.

Both sides are sad and pathetic.

Truth is eating less meat is a political statement of some quality be it for the grain produced to feed such a meat crazed diet of the world or the methane produced, or the toxification of animals with all sorts of hormones, or the death factories of mass produced meat products...

Truth is I love a good steak. Shame it has to be one or the other.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. We can always choose locally grown organic steak....
Not everyone can, of course.... because it is expensive.

I'm looking into splitting a cow and a pig with a couple friends. A guy I know raises turkeys ( we have one on order) and his brother raises pigs, all organic, here in new england. He does all the butchering. I am hoping it will come close to what I would normally spend over the course of a year.

I've been lessening the amount of meat in recipes. Not cutting it out- just smaller portions, trying to keep my bills down as much as I can.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #67
104. Yep
I have done much of the same... bought from organic butchers, friends who are subsistance hunters etc and I eat as organic as possible.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. I noticed something with the organic meat.
Smaller amounts are just as satisfying as larger amounts of the regular stuff.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is just another example of something that we eventually wil be forcced to deal with
and until then we'll have food-fights. Enjoy your steaks though, you don't have long before meat will become a rare treat, not by choice but by necessity.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
54.  as with the economy, sustainability has not been the goal. nt
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 09:06 PM by G_j


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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. We are making pork chops right now, but
we are having sweet potatos, too, and salad and stewed fruit, so we have an overall meat/vegitable balance.
(Whatever that means.)
Hate to think what gasses pigs emit......


mark
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thanks for this!
One of these days this environmental issue will be treated with the concern and seriousness it needs.

Until then, keep up the good work! :hi:
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Fireweed247 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. I wonder if eating fatty meats full of antibiotics and hormones....
is somehow connected to all of the obesity threads ....

that would be my only advice to all of the people with weight problems- throw out the meat! Who the hell knows what all the crap they are putting in the cows is doing?
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. or it could be from the non-meat based HFCS ! Technically that would be Vegan!
This is fun- let's play the finger pointing game!

I can go "Mmmmmmm STEAK" and then you can go "nazi cow murderer"... won't that be fun?
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
59. Meat doesn't make you fat. White flour and sugar make you fat.
I'm all for eating less meat-I was a vegetarian for many years and eat mostly fish and chicken now-but it's not meat that make people fat. It's white flour, sugar, grains and corn. They feed grains and corn to fatten cattle and it does the same thing to people.
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crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. umm. how much livestock is on earth as compared to 200 years ago?
There were huge herds of buffalo and wild horses roaming the Great Plains. I wonder if the percentage of greenhouse gas caused by livestock has increased or stayed level. If it's level, then it isn't the problem.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. I am pretty sure that what will eventually drive humanity towards vegetarianism
is simple economic necessity. As populations increase, and as we begin sensibly taxing carbon emissions, meat will eventually become so expensive that it will be little more than a garnish or a delicacy.

However, I do not intend to stop eating chicken until that day. I like chicken.
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Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. So... do we support a luxury tax on the worst offenders?
I assume beef/cows would be first on the list followed by pork/pigs.

Do you tax these industries to help subsidize things like green energy, health care and possibly competing industries such as poultry or fish farms?



I eat meat, I am as bad an offender as most people (I suppose) but I am also not against taking the first steps to alleviate some portion of the problem.
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Lost in CT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. Well actually whales are the worst offenders on a per animal basis.
If only we had some sort of program to keep their numbers in check...
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
32. So is PETA going to side with Scientific American when they advocate testing potentially lifesaving
drugs on rats?

No, sorry, I forgot, the rat's rights are more important than a sick kid.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
41. Great! More "meat" for the anti-PETA pricks on D.U.
Looking forward to those witty responses. Maybe even co-opting their acronym? Like: People Eating Tasty Animals.

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. It starts at the very first reply, too
"fuck the planet, fuck the poor, fuck the future of human kind...just give me that tasty steak, dammit"! :crazy:
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
69. I don't care for Peta. I would never use the acronym you used though.
Both sides get nasty when it comes to this topic.

Personally- I respect other's food choices. If you don't eat meat, or dairy, or wheat, or sugar or any other type of food and you were a guest in my home I would do my best to serve you foods you can enjoy.

So am I one of those Anti-peta pricks? personally I think they are screwy as hell and do more damage then good.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
45. wrong target-- the problem isn't eating meat....
The problem is too many humans.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. It's both. Feeding cattle takes more natural resources than feeding humans
crops from the same land. Meat is a monstrous wastes of the resources we have left-plus a far bigger contributor to climate change than cars.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Exactly.
We ate meat for 10's of thousands of years. It's only a problem now because of our out of control population.

It wasn't an issue 1000 years ago.

Soon, due to our increasing numbers, rationing will be enforced.

First meat, then other foods, then we'll all be down to gruel.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #50
62. no gruel for me, thanks...i have a wonderful garden.
and i may get some chickens as well.
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. Bingo.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #45
73. Once in a while I agree with something mike_c writes
This is one of them.

:toast:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
56. the Solution: EAT MORE VEAL!!
that way they don't grow up into hugh polluting cattle.

problem solved.

next?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. delete
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 09:48 PM by G_j


:wow:
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Lost in CT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. You know I think you have something there..... nt
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. back when i was a waiter at the meadow club- i sold A LOT of veal chops...
it was the second-most expensive item on the menu, and when people would ask for a recommendation, i always thought that suggesting the lobster was a little obvious...so- it was the veal chop that made me lots of good tip money...although- it was the after dinner drink cart where i could really make sales. i poured the last shot out of more than one bottle of louis tre...
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
64. Evangelism.
By any other name, it still comes down to brow beating, and patronizing superiority. Continue to be smug in your "discovery" you may get a few converts, but they won't be doing it for themselves or their health. They'll do it just because they joined a cool eating cult.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #64
72. Do the UN and Scientific American evangelize for "a cool eating cult" or are they
simply presenting the facts regarding the devastating environmental consequences of eating meat? If you think this is just evangelizing, please point out of which of the facts cited in the original post are not correct.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #72
86. Don't hide behind them. I wasn't talking about them.
I was talking about YOU!

YOU posted that so YOU could do yeat one more meat eaters are evil, browbeating thread. The info you used is just masking your true intentions.

Just like Jesus isn't to blame for a Christian's bigotry, the same applies to your post. Whenever somebody always hides behind "credible sources" to deflect from taking responsibility, it's to hide an agenda and sell something. "Who are you to challenge Scientific American? Hmmmmm?" Too predicatable.

SA and the UN don't want us to join a veggie cult. YOU DO!
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Facts are stupid things, aren't they. Feel free to challenge Scientific American
Edited on Tue Mar-03-09 05:26 PM by Karmadillo
and the UN and PETA. Point out where the articles go astray factually. It's not an issue of evil or browbeating. It's simply recognizing the facts strongly suggests mass meat production and consumption have devastating environmental consequences. Why does the posting of these facts upset you?
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #90
112. Again, wasn't challenging them.
I was talking to you. Own your agenda. Quit being a chickenshit.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. You are so funny.
I'm not sure how it works in Bizarro World, but in this world, we don't have to own the imagined agenda projected on to us by people trying to rationalize their contributions to environmental devastation.
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. It is not our job you ease your liberal guilt
Nor is it my responsibility to lie and tell you that you're not fucking up the world, because you are.
If you don't care have the balls to say so. I don't just as I don't care enough about the starving people in Africa to donate every single penny I make to feed them.

But you are part of a system that will end up screwing the entire human races unless alternatives are brought fourth. It's that simple.

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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #95
113. Wow. I have no response to that.
What language do you speak on Neptune?
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
71. dont eat meat, dont need meat. dont want meat.
best choice i ever made 30 yrs ago.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. I completely respect that.
I am an omnivore, but if not eating meat enhances someones life I think that is great. We need all the positives in our lives that we can get.

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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #71
76. Key word "choice"
Edited on Tue Mar-03-09 11:04 AM by cobalt1999
I won't tell you to live with my life choices, you don't tell me to live with your life choices. e.g. "don't eat meat, don't eat meat, don't eat meat"

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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
77. Why are meat eaters so bloody defensive?
I eat some meats and animal products, mostly of the organic variety. No beef though.
Why can't other meat eaters admit that they are part of the problem?

Hell, we ARE The problem. It's that simple, there's no way to turn away from it or rationalize it.
We either stop raising cattle or we cull the human population, anything also will not be enough.
With our current technology those are our two choices if we want to avoid truly catastrophic consequences.

So please, keep up the childish burger jokes.
So much defensiveness must have a common point of origin.

At least have the balls to admit that you value your comfort too much to care the same reason we in the west value our comfort too much to donate all our money to help the homeless, dying and starving around the world. I am personally not willing to live in a tent; I like my cushy, sterilized and relatively carefree existence but I can't understand how meat can be so important that so many are willing to sacrifice so much for it.

In the meantime, enjoy your steaks. Your great-grandchildren will be digging for cockroaches in the boneyards of humanity.
Without a technological breakthrough or a dramatic change of priorities that will be our future.






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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. You say "why so defensive" and then post "Your great-grandchildren will be digging for cockroaches "
Blah blah blah.

This isn't about the environment. If it were the discussion would be "how to lessen the impact" instead the it was a thinly veiled attempt to evangelize a way of life you and some others deem "the correct way to live". All others must conform to this or they are selfish, greedy, want the world to die, evil, gross, bloodthirsty, murderers...etc etc etc.

That sort of attitude and the snark insults within your post are HALF the reason these threads devolve into flames.

The other half is the responses like "mmmm cheezeburgers" to any veggie post.

it has become a vicious circle of nastiness towards each other.
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #80
91. ...
I don't have to be nice, the argument stands on its own.
Yes, you are fucking selfish and greedy. Deal with it one way or the other, it's the fucking truth and I won't be the one to shift the blame that lies squarely on our shoulders.

Either you accept the fact that raising food animals is unsustainable or you don't but the evidence won't go away if you choose to stick your head up your ass.
You react like wealthy, privileged people do when you point out the fact that people are suffering around the world.

You feel guilty, but not guilty enough to actually change your way of living and that's just fine.
But don't act offended when I say that you are to blame for the future problems your habits will create.





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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #91
98. And you are a rude obnoxious little twit.
Edited on Tue Mar-03-09 06:19 PM by Marrah_G
YOU are the poster child for why people get pissed off in these threads.

I hope you choke on all that self righteousness and spend your days wallowing in all your righteous indignation.

Rest assured I will not be witnessing it.

Welcome to ignore, you are not worth spending another second of my time on.
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DrCory Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #77
100. If you are part of the probelm...
Then why haven't you become part of the solution by ceasing your consumption meat products?

"...we in the west value our comfort too much to donate all our money to help the homeless, dying and starving around the world."

Have you donated ALL of your money to these causes? That's what you seem to be suggesting we should do.
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. No, because I don't actually care enough to give up my comforts for the sake of others
But at least I admit it.

I just hate the hypocrisy going on here where no is willing to admit that they value their eating habits more than they do the future and would rather see it all go to shit than do anything about it.
Instead they act all offended, self-righteous or childishly coy to try and draw attention from the fact.



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xenussister Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
81. I eat meat for my health
I'm diabetic and have to be on a near-zero carb diet or else my blood sugar goes wacky. It's impossible to be ultra-low carb without eating meat. After years of being out of control, my blood sugar is normal. After years of being out of control, my blood pressure is normal.

I want the animals I eat to have been treated well, but bottom line is, I have to eat them, or my health will suffer.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
82. I eat meat and find the "pro-meat" responses on this thread hysterical...
reflexive, ignorant, intolerant and very proud of their own stupidity. The rhetorical level is Freeper. It's not even "kill the messenger," it's "kill the assumed messenger and make all my insecurities plain." Astounding the lengths of denial to which people are inspired when they fear seeing their own complicity.

Thanks for your post.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #82
93. would they snicker at oil spills?
or other ecological challenges?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #93
107. Very good example...
Because we all use oil, yet do not snicker at its environmental impact. Some would, of course, but it wouldn't be a source of humor on DU. Whereas an accurate view of meat's environmental impact produces strong resistance, probably because of the greater guilt one feels (and denies) about the living things one has killed (by others) and ingests, compared to the fuel no one alive today chose to be the basis of civilization 200 years ago. Although, truth be told, it's oil we eat...
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #93
110. If dealing with spills interfered with their consumption patterns, I'm afraid they might.
Edited on Wed Mar-04-09 11:06 AM by Karmadillo
nt
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
84. Doesn't Sound Like A Meat Eating Problem Whatsoever. Quite Misguided.
Edited on Tue Mar-03-09 12:25 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
What it seems like, is a global over-population problem.

Humans are supposed to eat meat. If this much damage is done because of it, it is not because we shouldn't be eating meat; but rather because there are too many of us in order to supply meat to the masses without causing damage. If the planet wasn't overpopulated, there wouldn't be as much a need for all the farming etc.

So it is an over-population problem not a meat eating problem. We're meant to eat meat. But the planet likely wasn't meant to handle 6+ billion humans. :hi:
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
87. Eating meat is normal for humans. Some don't want to eat it, and that's OK.
But the constant cacophony lambasting meat eating by food nannies is a bit much.

You don't like meat. I get it.

You think raising meat is horrific for the planet and everyone on it. I get that, too.

I get it, I just don't care. I've already heard or read all your arguments. I've considered and dismissed them. Humans eat meat because we need it and we like it.
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. Enjoy it while you can 'cause it won't last long
I can't last long one way or the other. I don't really give a fuck personally whether the human race faces extinction in the coming centuries.
I just hate the fact that as usual all the whiny liberals don't have the balls to say "I don't give a fuck that I'm screwing up the world."

And then they turn around and whine about global warming, nuclear energy while doing absolutely nothing about it.

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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. I assume you hate any liberal with children then
Since having children is bigger environmental impact a person can make.

A person with no kids, eating a steak every day and driving a hummer is less harmful to the planet, than a vegan with kids.

Tell all the folks here with kids that they are whiners and doing "absolutely nothing about it"



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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. As long as they can say "Yes, I know the consequences and I don't care"
It's the hypocritical bull that gets to me.

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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. He is just a self righteous rude little bugger
He hates anyone who doesn't take to the lifestyle he has deemed correct and is incapable of have a civil conversation.
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. I am not a vegetarian. I eat most everything except beef and factory farmed meats
You just hate to be called out on your own hypocrisy.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #96
108. Untrue and implicitly: anti-humanist claptrap.
"A person with no kids, eating a steak every day and driving a hummer is" definitely more harmful "to the planet, than a vegan with kids." Just as the average single American is more "harmful" (if by this we agree that we mean: uses more resources and emits more pollutants) than the average two Indians with five children.

There's also a specific name for this fallacy by which you turn a discussion about steak into some general strawman about children, but I forget it...
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #108
111. Absolutely true.
Just look up the resources use and pollution caused per capita published by the U.N.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #94
103. Apparently you didn't understand what I said.
Edited on Tue Mar-03-09 09:09 PM by TexasObserver
Do I need to repeat it in another language you understand better, eh?

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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. Puedes tratar, si queréis
I actually like your honesty.
Out of all the whiners here, you're the only one so far to admit that they just don't care about the consequences.
These debates would be a lot shorter if people were honest about their needs and desires.

:D
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #87
126. Humans need meat? Quick! Someone tell my nutritionist!
So, how many examples of perfectly healthy vegetarians would it take for you to admit you're not omniscient?

1?
10?
100?
1000?
10,000?
100,000?

I suspect that the number will be a moving target as the number of vegetarians increases in the world. But that's always the case with such arguments that appeal to emotion, isn't it?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
88. Seems to me they are talking Factory Farms, not "meat". eom
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Agreed. Capitalism is the problem.

As usual.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #88
109. What is the distinction in the modern urban context?
How many people are sourcing their meat to organic grazing? How much of that could be supported based on the land limits?

Meat 365 days a year for everyone (which, roughly, is the American ideal, at least to most Americans) can't be supported for more than a few decades... and most of that time appears to have been used up.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
114. Half of the food supply goes to waste every year
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AB_Positive Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
115. Wait...
with all the hormones in milk, can I just drink milk 24/7 other than obtaining estrogen pills? It'd be easier and cheaper... :D

*signs up for the large breast line*
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
125. It's chicken fried steak night at my house. n/t
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
127. See, I can't constantly eat soy products. For me, veganism is OUT.
Edited on Thu Mar-05-09 05:42 PM by BreweryYardRat
I've tried the soy-everything. It gives me the shits like you wouldn't believe. The most I can manage is a protein bar a day. And the stores here don't stock Quorn or other non-soy meat substitutes -- Whole Foods might have it, but I'm a college student. I can't afford to shop somewhere nicknamed "Whole Paycheck" on anything like a regular basis.

Meat doesn't cause me nearly as much intestinal distress, and it's affordable.
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