Why Should Simple Empathy Have To Be Taught To Supposed Adults?

[20score]

Lately there has been a lot discussion about the homeowners that are losing their houses. The right-wing blogs and Youtube are saturated with comments on how these ‘losers’ deserve everything that’s coming to them. No help should be extended. Rick Santelli and Stuart Varney have become folk heroes to some because of their ‘organic’ outrage at the homeowners, and in the process the heat has slowly being turned down on the financial industry that caused the meltdown. (I also like to add that they had help from congress who wrote the laws.) But because of great investigative work by Playboy and DU’s own drm604, we now know that this outrage is anything but organic. It was planned months in advance. I wrote a post myself about the Wacky Fascists and Their Outrage, highlighting the fact that these are paid propagandists carrying water for those that caused the problem in the first place.

What bothers me, besides all of the obvious aspects, is the fact that people are so easily manipulated in the first place. Forget the fact that the homeowners couldn’t have designed the system to their liking – they have no power to do that. And forget the fact that everyone is suffering from the mortgage crises and some people will have to be helped in order to help us all. These people are losing their houses and in many cases ending up homeless. Luck does have a good deal to do with how a person is doing financially. Of course planning does too, intelligence, drive, etc. also play a part, but how many out there have lost jobs, gone through a financially devastating divorce, have health issues or simply believed lies that a loan officer told them? So how is it that the media can tilt people toward hating others that have never harmed them, so quickly? It happened in the build up to the Iraq War and it’s happening now. Why should empathy have to be taught to adults?

[Idealism]

1. Why is Ethics 101 no longer a Business degree requirement?

[ihavenobias]

13. Most programs don't have some type of ethics course requirement? n/t

[Idealism]

14. They used to.

It is my understanding that it is no longer a course requirement.

[Mind_your_head]

32. I have a course book from my college dayz "an ethics for the affluent"....it was ONLY in paperback

(I presume because no 'serious' publisher would "bank" on it.) ~ even though we 'affluent' could have afforded a hardcover. It was "raw" :eyes:

It was as sickening to me then as much as it is to me now.

Don't assume an 'ethics' course would only discuss what is good for "the group/society as a whole"....in fact such a title, alludes to "How to have/keep mine....and let the "others" agree with/support me".

[Idealism]

33. Of course, but the mere fact that it is completely absent from the Business debate

is more troublesome than some incorrectly twisting Ethics class to their own needs.

[Mind_your_head]

44. Yes, you're correct, but whom can we trust to teach ethics anymore?

The priests?

The bankers?

The government's (elected or not)
representatives?)

Doctors?

Lawyers?

There is no TRUST. Continuity of trust ANYWHERE. It's all been torn down.

edit: stupid typo

[Idealism]

45. That is why this will be a global depression

There is no faith in our financial system anymore. Those who warned us were ignored. Those many trusted were incompetent. Some just flat-out lied to our faces. Many have lost faith in our economic system.

All economic systems have one thing in common: Capitalism benefits the top 10% or so, Socialism benefits the bottom 60% or so, and Communism (thanks to human nature; not how Lenin imagined it) benefits the top 0.0001% that govern the state. It all depends on who you want to benefit from your system, honestly they are all the same in this regard.

The Great Depression saw a lack of trust coupled with rampant fear. Fear of starvation, war, and later Communism. We didn't stop "fearing" any of these things, but they just became less apparent. We got on after awhile. At some point, you become desensitized.

[Mind_your_head]

46. Hmmm........ n/t

[Xipe Totec]

2. empathy has to be taught, only to children

and that's all I have to say about that.

[20score]

5. Exactly!

[surrealAmerican]

51. The thing is, empathy is easily observed in young children ...

... who have been well cared for. By the time most babies are a year old, they will give "mommy" a hug to help her if she's crying because that is what mommy does when they are crying. Only seriously neglected children fail to show empathy.

[DURHAM D]

3. "Why should empathy have to be taught to adults?"

I don't think it can be taught. Its no longer a concept.

Thank Ronald Reagan and the hate mongering racist and sexist group known as Republicans. They have controlled conversation and education for almost 30 years.

[CoffeeCat]

4. Have you listened to right-wing hate radio lately?

Right wing haters have tried to squash the humanity out of human beings.

They have positioned people who care and people who empathize as weak, mindless idiots or "bleeding-heart liberals."

Caring about the poor is now a character flaw. We must abandon people and let them empower themselves. If you help,
then you are really hurting those in need.

Right wing hate radio has attempted to make being a selfish, hateful, venomous, judgemental, lying, divisive hatemonger--a cool thing.

So now, people who chose to tear down and destroy---instead of think, care, be creative and empathize--can feel good
about what jerks they are.

They've been working on this for decades...

[Qutzupalotl]

66. In short, they exist to rationalize avarice. n/t

[liberalmuse]

6. I don't really know, but...

it seems that a lot of adults choose not to have empathy. Why do you think Rush Limbaugh is so popular? Everyday he's on the air he justifies being an asshole, says it's okay, and even "American". Reagan did that shit, too. Some people are so morally and ethically weak or lazy that they will jump on any excuse to not do the right thing, and to even feel good about doing what they know damn well deep inside is the wrong thing. I remember when President Carter asked Americans to sacrifice and conserve energy. We all knew it was the right thing to do, but then Reagan came along and said we didn't have to sacrifice or suffer because, goddamn it, we were Americans, the greatest country on earth, blessed by god, so to speak, the chosen people. These people ended up supporting a war and they all have innocent blood on their heads. And right before our eyes, we are starting to see ugly festering souls of people who allowed love, compassion, empathy and kindness to be replaced by fear, hatred, apathy and greed. People who claim to love "America" would not hesitate to shit on the people who make America what it is, or help their fellow citizens. They are much too concerned with what is in it for them, and they do not want anyone getting what they feel is rightfully theirs, which is everything. They are The Damned.

[mrcheerful]

7. Dude these are the same people that stand there watching their drunk neighbor beat the snot out of

of da wife and kids. They cheer as the neighbors house burns to the ground. They laugh when the neighbor's wife comes over to let them know they will be moving because hubby lost his job and the can no longer afford their home, some times they wait till wife leaves before the laughter starts. As long as its not affecting their life or income they love seeing others in hardship. As long as its not them who cares? These are the products of 30 years of Reagan self centered ethics. If they can watch a child die of starvation or abuse they find a joy in the suffering of others.

Empathy to these folks is a weakness and weakness either needs to be destroyed or be taken advantage of if seen in another. They actually believe they don't use government services, the mail person that delivers their mail is often unseen. They think cops should be called when their house is broken into but not when they are drunk driving, then of course they pay cops wages and are out raged to be arrested when they know for a fact theirs worse criminals then them on the loose. Or when they over load the wiring on their electric box and the house catches fire they expect firemen to be Johny on the spot, but these things aren't run by government in their minds, they are just doing a public service for them.

I could go on and on about these self centered egotistical assholes but why bother Reagans dead his trickle down economic plans are dead and soon these self centered assholes will be on the streets asking "brother can you spare a dime?"

[MedleyMisty]

8. I have been trying to research and learn about this for years now

The best that I can tell, it's bad genes combined with bad nurturing. A lot of people don't get the nurturing they need to move beyond the egocentric stages of development.

And it's a bit of a catch 22, because while I can easily think of a society that would produce more empathetic people, you would need to have way more empathetic people than we do now to create such a society in the first place.

[conscious evolution]

31. A good start down that path

would be to shut down the propoganda machines that use every trick in the book to stifle empathy.

[Odin2005]

9. Being a high-function autistic who suposedly "has no empathy" I'm always telling people that...

...They need to look at themselves in a mirror. Sometimes it seems like it's everyone except me that has no empathy. :puke: To me it seems like what non-autistic people call "empathy" is a fake empathy that is all about telling people you can "feel their pain" so you can manipulate them before ripping them off.

[pnwmom]

17. I don't know much about this, but

among my three children, I noticed different degrees of empathy as they've been growing up. One, in particular, was extremely empathic from toddlerhood -- he would tell me what his older brother was feeling, and he would be right. He also couldn't stand to have anyone else feeling bad/sad/etc.

The child who was least empathic wasn't "born" very empathic, as his brother seemed to be. He had some degree of natural empathy, and the rest was learned, just as he learned other social skills. And now it's clear to me that he routinely tries to see things from other people's point of view, and does so. He wasn't a very empathic toddler, but he is an empathic adult.

I bet it's that way for lots of people. People are born with tendencies that could make them more or less empathic, but empathy can be learned -- and also, unfortunately, unlearned. People can harden themselves against the feelings of others. And that's the real tragedy.

[bertman]

20. Odin2005, you really should get out more often. Join a Democratic county group,

work at a food bank, help build a Habitat for Humanity house, be an aide at a hospital.

The world is full of people who are empathetic, caring and helpful to others without a thought for remuneration.

[Odin2005]

37. I think you are mixing up compassion and sympathy with empathy, which are different things.

A person can want to help people and prevent suffering (compassion and sympathy) and yet still not be able to think of themselves in the other person's shoes (empathy).

[janx]

42. Agreed. n/t

[bertman]

43. Not really. Many of those folks I described do those compassionate deeds BECAUSE they

can imagine being in the other person's shoes. So they do what they can to help others less fortunate than they to have a better life.

[janx]

34. I'm sending you a PM

because I believe that working with autistic students has enriched my life.

[Odin2005]

36. Please do!

We need more teachers who understand us folks with Asperger's Syndrome! :hi:

[dweller]

10. so few teachers?

:shrug:

dp

[tabasco]

11. Because we haven't really evolved very far from animals.

Some people are still more like animals.


Due to our overpopulation, we have actually regressed to become even worse than the other primates, it seems.

[20score]

50. How true.

[cabluedem]

65. Overpopulation: the elephant in the room no one talks about. nt

[TahitiNut]

12. It's the same reason humanity created a "Vengeful God"

As long as the victims of hardship and deprivation can be blamed for their own suffering, the blame-mongers accomplish TWO goals: (1) they convince themselves that they're safe - since they do things "right," and (2) they can hoard their own meager assets out of FEAR that they, themselves, might encounter difficulties and hoarding is doing things "right." (Many people would rather be "right" than happy or safe.)


I choose to live in an abundant Universe where love is what we're best designed for.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. I think Tahiti Nut is on to something

When people dump on the less fortunate members of their own social class, it's a form of magical thinking. "Maybe if I hate the unemployed or people who lost their homes intensely enough, I can prove how virtuous I am and it won't happen to me."

It' a matter of disassociating one's self from the less fortunate

[Odin2005]

38. Good observation and I agree. n/t

[iamjoy]

27. #1 Is Spot On

If some one can convince themselves it was the "victim's" fault, they can convince themselves it will never happen to them. This is easier than being inconvenienced by empathy. It also explains why Republicans seem so insensitive sometimes. They really aren't heartless - they're scared sh*tless.

[pnwmom]

16. Because no one helped them learn it when they were young. n/t

[Triana]

18. if you knew my ex you wouldn't have to ask that question

emotional eunuchs abound. . .

[BrklynLiberal]

19. It is part of what is called the "mirror Gene". Dogs have it. Some cats have it. Some people

have it..but I guess not all of them.
Perhaps if one does not have the predisposition for empathy it cannot be taught to you.

Born to be kind, study identifies empathy gene

February 12, 2009

The ability to empathize with others is partially determined by genes, according to research on mice from UW-Madison and Oregon Health and Science University (OHSU).

In the study, a highly social strain of mice learned to associate a sound played in a specific cage with something negative simply by hearing a mouse in that cage respond with squeaks of distress. A genetically different mouse strain with fewer social tendencies did not learn any connection between the cues and the other mouse’s distress, showing that the ability to identify and act on another’s emotions may have a genetic basis. The new research was published (Feb. 11) in the Public Library of Science ONE journal.

Like humans, mice can automatically sense and respond to others’ positive and negative emotions, such as excitement, fear or anger. Understanding empathy in mice may lead to important discoveries about the social interaction deficits seen in many human psychosocial disorders, including autism, schizophrenia, depression and addiction, the researchers say. For example, nonverbal social cues are frequently used to identify early signs of autism in very young children.

<snip>

In contrast, observer mice from a less gregarious strain — less likely to seek the company of other mice — showed no response to the tone when they were placed in the test chamber.

The differences exhibited by the two strains show that there is a genetic component to the ability to perceive and act based on another’s emotional state, the researchers say. Future studies will focus on the genetic differences between the mouse strains to try to identify some of the specific genes that may be involved.

While it may come as no surprise to pet owners or those who work with animals that animals are able to pick up on the emotional states of those around them, this type of effect has not been rigorously demonstrated in a scientific context, the researchers say.

<snip>

http://www.tricitypsychology.com/blog/born-to-be-kind-study-identifies-empathy-gene/
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The missing Conservative empathy gene. EXCELLENT ARTICLE
http://diagnarfl.blogspot.com/2007/01/missing-conservative-empathy-gene.html
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
How Do Mirror Neurons Work?
Where does empathy come from and how do we understand the goals of others
http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-Do-Mirror-Neurons-Work-39171.shtml
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Good Samaritans are born not raised, new study suggests
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/4581313/Good-Samaritans-are-born-not-raised-new-study-suggests.html

[bertman]

22. BrklynLiberal, the study you site certainly jives with what I have experienced in a number

of humans. Sometimes that lack of empathy can be countered by someone simply SHOWING EMPATHY or explaining to the NON-empathetic one why empathy is an appropriate response in a given situation.

I swear I have been with men mostly who apparently feel it's a sign of strength or hardassedness or something to act like unempathetic buttheads. But when I, or someone else in the group, was empathetic the offender would realize how stupid he sounded and start acting like he had half a brain and a spoonful of empathy.

Of course, if the people you keep company with are all a bunch of hardass ignoramuses, then your empathy coffers might be a tad low.

Edit to add: Some of these empathy-free types think of themselves as the Last of the Rugged Individuals. Kinda like George Bush was The Last Tough Guy.

[20score]

35. Good info. Thanks.

[Odin2005]

39. They are grouping us autistics with puke assholes? Fuck that!

:grr:

[MercutioATC]

21. It's too diverse a pool to feel empathy for ALL of them.

I feel bad for those who were responsible and just fell on hard times.

However, there were those who were gaming the system. They bought more house than they could afford, planning to sell at a profit as housing values rose. That's no different than playing the stock market...and if one did it in the past two years, it was more like gambling. I don't "feel empathy" for people who take a risk playing the stock market and lose money, do you?

There are also those who were just irresponsible. They could afford the house, but as values rose they refinanced and took money out to spend on luxuries. When values dropped, they were screwed. I don't feel any empathy for them, either.

Then, there were those who were taken in by disreputable lenders. However, they're only responsible for the contract they signed and if anybody signs something without reading it, they kinda deserve what they get. I do feel a little empathy for them...but only a little.


See? It's not so easy. I do feel really bad for the person who was playing by the rules, just trying to improve their life. They might have lost their job or got sick or such and the economy just rolled over them...but that doesn't mean that I empathize with everybody who loses their house.

[tomp]

23. a little balance to the guilt-tripping is nice. thank you. nt

[20score]

26. Yeah, wouldn't want you to feel bad.

That's real tough, I'm sure.

[tomp]

48. don't be a jerk , ok? where's your empathy? nt.

[annabanana]

52. Why do some people's empathy come with such rigid strings...

and others are slower to judge?

[tomp]

62. who's judging whom?

rigid strings? you think you can reasonably come to that conclusion about me and the poster i supported by those two posts?

[20score]

25. I understand that not all of this group deserves compassion. You can always find a few people

in any large group that are unsympathetic characters. My point is the people loosing their homes are under attack as the cause of this, (which is ridiculous) and as a whole, for being worthy of derision. They aren't. Just like in the debate in 2005 about the credit card law, we are talking about less than 10% of those effected that, "didn't play by the rules."

[MercutioATC]

28. Both extremes (in fact, all extremes) are silly.

You're right, the whole shouldn't be judged by the actions of the few...but the bleeding hearts are just as bad as those who say they're all deadbeats and cheaters.

[iamjoy]

29. I Feel Empahty For Them

I do feel empathy for the ones who made bad decisions, bought more house than they needed and tried to game the system. They thought they were making a good investment, it didn't work out that way. I blame them for their part in this mess too. Somehow with me it isn't mutually exclusive.

Hey, look, if I leave my house unlocked and get burglarized is it my fault? I don't think so. I think we should blame the person who came in and took my stuff. Yes, I was foolish and am partially responsible, but I hope you would still have a little empathy.

Anyway, when it comes to bailing out the institutions and homeowners who helped create this mess, it isn't a morality issue. It would be nice to say "they screwed up and don't deserve our help" but letting them go down to "teach them a lesson" hurts others in the process. If the family down the street loses their house to foreclosure, that lowers the value of my house and contributes to blight in the neighborhood. I really don't give a hoot if they got into that mess because they were greedy, dumb or just unlucky. Oh, and now what's going to happen to that cute little cat they have when the family taking them in has a kid with allergies? And when the bank loses money on that house and then doesn't want to give me a home equity loan for some renovations even though I have equity, income and savings because they are so freaked out about defaults, it affects me - even when I've been responsible.

Let's help who we can.

[cilla4progress]

24. Would we have gone "there"?

Well, I hate to bring him up because he always comes up in these discussions, but Hitler? Nazi Germany? Third Reich? Those folks were "normal, mainstream, nice people, good neighbors and Christians" befoer their complicity.

[stillcool]

30. Perception management...

I know propaganda works, but I don't know how well. If my perceptions were correct about what was going on in this country, based on media reports, Obama not only would not be President, he wouldn't have been the nominee. I don't know how many people are really affected by the bombardment of bullshit. I know I am. Sometimes I think more than the intended target.

[omega minimo]

41. Perceptive post

:bounce:

[omega minimo]

40. Reaganism

[OneBlueSky]

47. the banks that push mortgages they know can never be repaid . . .

are equally responsible as the homeowner -- probably more so . . .

[Berry Cool]

49. My Republican coworkers are like this.

The night after Obama addressed Congress and Bobby Jindal looked like such an idiot, all they could talk about was how terrible and unfair it was that THEY would have to pay the price for bailing out all these greedy people who bought houses they couldn't afford.

I heard another of my coworkers saying she didn't understand why the Obamas had get the financial aid to attend an Ivy League college; wasn't a state university good enough for them? We are not all entitled to an Ivy League education, you know. I just said something to the effect that I believe everyone should be able to attend whatever college will admit them, because I would not have been able to attend the private university I did at certain points in my college life without financial aid. And that, in fact, without government financial aid, I would not have ANY kind of a college degree AT ALL, and I would not be sitting in my cubicle next to her today.

It just amazes me that the Repigs can so easily milk middle-class resentment by convincing ordinary average not-rich people that poor people, or people who cannot pay for everything out of pocket in order to achieve a good and decent life, are somehow their enemies and are unfairly getting something they are not getting. Fuck it. I got what I got because of my academic achievement and the fact that my mom was, at the time I attended college, earning what was considered a below-poverty-level salary and my father wasn't contributing a dime. I'm not going to apologize for the fact that the assistance I received help boot me up from poverty or near-poverty to the middle class.

Oh, and my mother was one of those greedy people who fell for the mortgage lenders' spiel and, after years of renting, bought "too much house" when she retired...a $40,000 condo. Then she died, and left one of my sisters who makes just above minimum wage to try to pay it off. I think you can guess what is happening now.

[NashVegas]

53. Empathy vs Sympathy

First of all, you are short shrifting the US public in one regard: the overwhelming majority of people who are pissed off about the bail-outs and about people taking on more debt than they could handle didn't need, or follow, a Repuke-sponsored scheme that started back when we still had a Repuke president.

Secondly, empathy differs from sympathy. One is having some idea what it's like to walk in another's shoes, the other is feeling pity for someone who's got it rough. You CAN have sympathy for someone who got screwed, you can even empathize with someone who got screwed, but that doesn't mean you have to approve bailing all of them out at the expense of people who were able to say "no," and it sure as fuck doesn't make someone a Rushbot.

[20score]

54. I know the difference. You seem a little pissed. Did you read the post?

I was talking about people blaming the homeowners and becoming furious at them and letting the bankers off the hook.

Whatever, I don't care anymore. Be pissed.

[NashVegas]

60. I Have a Tendency To Be That Way

When one person takes what is a normal emotional reaction (anger, in this case) to a situation and attempts to manipulate others into having and expressing the emotion that person wants them to have. Even more so when the manipulator in question attempts to tie the (undesired emotional expression) to a negatively-perceived "other" group.

"You shouldn't be angry, if you're angry, you're just like Rushbots! You should be sorry for those who got screwed."

Feel all the empathy you want, but it's anger that stands the better chance of preventing a repeat in the near future.

Many Republicans and Conservatives want to place all the blame on home-owners, just as many Democrats and Liberals (I'm talking rank and file, not DC) want to place all the blame on Wall St and the banks.

I reject both in this instance.

[20score]

61. You rock!!

[slampoet]

55. Wow. The person with Empathy can't figure out why other's don't have empathy.

This is the best laugh I've had all morning.

[punkin87]

56. I don't think he saying there aren't assholes.

I'm sure you know what I mean.

They're all over.

[Profprileasn]

57. Empathy

Is much easier when one's wallet isn't involved.

[AllentownJake]

58. What amazes me more is how many supposed Christians

are saying what you speak.

The parable of the Vineyard.

These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' 13 But he replied to one of them, `Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?'"

[fed_up_mother]

59. I feel sorry for most of them. We all do stupid things, sometimes.

I would have liked to make money on flipping a house. I think most people would if it's an honest way of earning money, but most of us aren't going to gamble. Anyway, I can feel sorry for someone who took a gamble and lost, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I think that person deserves help.

On the other hand, there are people who truly have found themselves on hard times through no fault of their own, and I wish we could help everyone of them. And I certainly think that folks who were screwed by the mortgage companies deserve help.

[anonymous171]

63. It's not about empathy. The Corporate media was just worried that we might start blaming the rich,

specifically the rich parasites that work in Wall Street, for the mess they created. So they reverted to their usual "make the lower classes attack eachother" strategy. Now instead of attacking the banks we are attacking our fellow Americans.

[noiretextatique]

64. because we are mostly morally bankrupt

and as spiritually broken as we are financially. 28+ years of rw bullshit manifesting in yet another way. i felt this first happen with reagan...the mood of the country changed overnight.

[Edweird]

67. Except it's not just 'RW blogs'; it's DU too. Certain pieces of human garbage here were all too

happy to explain how EVERYTHING WAS MY FAULT when my construction company collapsed followed by divorce and foreclosure.....

[Greyhound]

68. Television, the drug of our nation. Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation.

We've become a nation of simpletons that form opinions based on nothing more that whatever shit pours out from our pusher. We believe literally anything that comes from the tube, no matter how absurd it is.

If we no longer have empathy for others, it is because we don't know what it is. We all believe ourselves to be empathetic, we "feel sorry" because we are told to and also who/what we should "feel sorry" for. We believe we know what is going on because the TeeVee tells us what is going on. We like what it tells us to like and we hate what it tells us to hate. We base our entire reality on this obscenity.

Don't believe it? Turn it off for six months (the "new season" will have started by then) and see how quickly you have no idea what people are talking about.