Las Vegas to Disneyland?

[Cant trust em]

Did you guys catch that little tidbit last night? I know that the republicans hate California/Hollywood/LA, but these lies are totally intolerable.

[tridim]

1. That phrase has been a standard issue GOP talking point for awhile now.

Jindal has said it multiple times during the past week.

[BuyingThyme]

2. Not that I wasn't listening intently, but what is the applicable context of this phrase.

[Cant trust em]

4. High speed rail.

We're going to spend 8 billion dollars shuttling people from Pirates of the Caribbean to the MGM Grand.

[BuyingThyme]

10. Thank you.

:hi:

[gollygee]

17. It would be better to have people using gas and polluting the environement in their cars?

If people are going to travel between the two, doesn't it make sense to have an alternative like this?

[Cant trust em]

20. If there were a few more cities between the two, I'd be more supportive

I love high speed rail, but that area is just too sparse to justify spending. The rest of the California high speed plan is brilliant though. I'm really excited for it. I recommend checking out their website.

[Lance_Boyle]

25. high speed rail loses lots of its high speed when it stops.

that said, I think high speed rail between DC and NYC might be a better use of funds than a high-tech tourist transport between unsustainable desert "oases."

[Cerridwen]

27. It's not "just" tourism, which is business for some in these places, btw.

But thank you for giving an example of how easy it is to re-frame the discussion to hide the reality.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. There are already plenty of commuter trains between DC and NYC, aren't there?

"a high-tech tourist transport between unsustainable desert "oases."

You're against high speed trains between two major metropolises seperated by a long flat stretch of desert that's too far to drive and too short to fly? Based on ignorance?

Fair enough.

[Cant trust em]

43. I don't think LA to Vegas is too far to drive

Also, a lot of people are forecasting that Vegas won't be as much of a metropolis now that housing prices are continuing to fall. Most of what propped Vegas up in the first place is the mirage (desert pun intended) of a real estate market.

[Ichingcarpenter]

49. You must have never driven that route.... It is a madhouse

Bumper to bumper at 80 miles a hour.

[Cant trust em]

51. I have actually, and it stinks.

But I don't think it's worth the investment just yet. Maybe in time it will be, but not yet.

[Lance_Boyle]

57. lots of trains, no high speed

I believe the funds for high-speed rail would be put to better use in an area where rail is already an established mode of transport, and it exists to do more than haul vacationers. Granted, some non-tourists may end up using the LA to LV rail for non-vacation purposes, but I believe the vast majority of use would be leisure travel. Not a top priority in my opinion.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

58. Are there vast tracts of empty desert between NY and DC?

[Lance_Boyle]

61. Delaware and NJ n/t

[Cerridwen]

64. What you appear to be dismissing as "just tourism" or "vacation"

is called business in these parts. It means jobs, income, and education.

It may not meet your standards of business, but some actually make a living catering to those vacationers and tourists, as well as those who cater to those who cater. Including those who might better meet your standard of "business," i.e., bankers, office workers, teachers, bus drivers (we have some), federal, state and local government workers, bank tellers, fast food employees, food and beverage industry, chemists, researchers, writers, CPAs, bookkeepers, hell, we've even got priests, ministers, tailors, bakers, chefs, and, oh ya know, all kinds of "regular" folk.

[Romulox]

70. If it's "business", then why should the taxpayer pay for it? nt

[Cerridwen]

74. Why is the gov't paying for the auto industry and the financial

industry?

Personally, I'm with many others from my area who think that the casinos should be the ones to fork over the money. Just as I think the financial industry and the auto industry should pay their own way and run effective and profitable businesses using best practices; and let the "free market" we've been sold, do its thing.

That, however, is not the discussion here.

[Romulox]

77. Because their collapse is thought to jeopordize the broader economy

That is in no way analogous to the situation in LV; LV is not near collapse, nor is there any suggestion that LV's current economic situation would drag down the broader economy with it unless such a line was built.

[Cerridwen]

80. So then it's just a matter of scale.

Some here *have* been arguing that Vegas *is* about to "shrivel up and die." <----my interpretation

If that were true, what *would* be the ripple effects? There's a lot of federal government money and resources in the Vegas valley.

Now, why on earth should the government pay to create infrastructure for *any* part of the country?

[Cerridwen]

26. So we should spend more money and natural resources to

populate an area that is mostly, inhospitable to humans and other "things" in order to justify spending money and natural resources to connect the ones already in place?

That's what it looks like you're saying. If only it were more densely populated and built, then it would justify more building.

[Born_A_Truman]

41. Actually I live in that inhospitable to humans area

I live in a small unincorporated area of the high desert, but the local communites along the I-15 corridor up here include Apple Valley, Victorville, Hesperia and Barstow.

Victorville as of 2008: population estimate released by the state of California is 107,721.

In 2006, the Hesperia municipal government estimated the population at 80,000.

Apple Valley as of 2008, the population was estimated to be 72,922

2000: Barstow Population: 21,119

[Cerridwen]

46. Good point. Thanks.

I was thinking of that stretch that is the dried lake bed; can't think of the name. It's where high winds meet sand and create "dust devils" and visibility "problems" out of a horror flick.

You know what I mean. It's where, if you plan it well, you can park your car and have the entire paint job sanded off in minutes. Icky.

[Cant trust em]

45. No, I'm saying the opposite

I don't think that LA to Vegas makes sense right now because no one lives in between. I don't think we should force a housing market in the middle of the desert to justify a rail line. The rail line shouldn't be built.

[Cerridwen]

52. One of those "no one"s who lives in between has responded in this

thread.

If you think the only reason Vegas exists is because of the housing market, then you've just displayed an amazing amount of ignorance about the Las Vegas valley and its environs. While it enjoyed astounding growth beginning in the 80s, it also serves as a "hub" for Nellis Air Force Base, Hoover Dam, the Nevada Test Site/Mercury, the management of much government land (when not sold to the freaking developers), and other DoD sponsored activities; love 'em or hate 'em, they are there. There's also a university in which one of the (once?) top rated schools for the "hospitality industry" is located, as is the Desert Research Institute and other industries and businesses.

Unless you think the US Gov't is gonna pack up it's stuff and move to other parts of the country, Vegas is gonna be around a while longer.

[Cant trust em]

56. I don't think that Vegas exists because of the housing bubble

but it became a huge metropolis because of the housing bubble. If it weren't for that we'd still be talking about Vegas in small terms and certainly not about spending billions connecting a high-speed rail line there.

[Cerridwen]

59. From "a housing market in the middle of the desert" to

"I don't think that Vegas exists because of the housing bubble but it became a huge metropolis because of the housing bubble...we'd still be talking about Vegas in small terms"

We, from the area, began talking about this around the 80s (perhaps before then) - back when Vegas was still "small terms." Then, we were talking millions not billions. If we put it off a few more decades we can talk trillions. It's piss poor planning on a lot of levels.

I wonder how much it's cost us in gas, time, business, and lives over those past decades. Some of that time and money spent was due to the business of government. I wonder how much it will cost us in the future.

[Cant trust em]

62. Unfortunately there isn't the funding or political will to get all of our projects done

at one time. I think that an argument can be made for a lot of projects to be made right now and the $8B that was allocated for high speed rail is inadequate, IMO. I would have liked to see more money for urban mass transit too. But if a political compromise has to be made, then I'm glad they made the one they did.

[Cerridwen]

66. So I gather. n/t

[enlightenment]

75. Wrong.

Do you really think Vegas is a huge metropolis only because of the housing bubble? If that's the case, that bubble's been around for a lot longer than anyone thought.

In 1910, the population of Las Vegas increased 209% from 1900.
In 1930, the population more than doubled from 1920.
In 1950, the population more than tripled from 1940.
In 1960, the population again tripled from 1950.

Just how long has that housing bubble been going on, anyway?

[Cant trust em]

85. When 1 increases 210 percent it becomes 3.1

When that number doubles it becomes 6.2. You can multiply that number by 10 and you still only have 60.

Wow! It's multiplied by so much! Statistics can be tricky if used incorrectly.

Here is the population in real numbers.

Census Pop. %±
1920 2,304 —
1930 5,165 124.2%
1940 8,422 63.1%
1950 24,624 192.4%
1960 64,405 161.6%

Hardly a booming metropolis.

Now in 2007, it's a different story with estimated population of 558,880.

[Ichingcarpenter]

31. You know of another route to get high speed rail out of California?

So it can make its intercontinental journey?

High speed rail is not intercity rail.

[Cant trust em]

35. I'm not sure that intercontinential rail travel is feasible

I'm interested in high speed from the bay area to southern california because it only adds about an hour or so, is cheaper and more comfortable than flying. This country is just way too big to get from San Francisco to New York via rail. I wouldn't want to take a train from Prague to Barcelona either.

on edit: If you're looking at commercial uses, that is likely to be an investment for another time.

[Cerridwen]

39. That would be why we may need to "cut it" into managable "bites."

LV to LA could be one of those "bites."

Do you know Amtrak doesn't have a stop in Vegas? One must take the Amtrak to Bakersfield, CA then bus into Vegas. I believe it's Amtrak to Salt Lake then bus when traveling from the other direction.

[Cant trust em]

50. If we're going to move to intercontinental high-speed...

then LA to Vegas should be the first one built. But since we're talking about regional rail right now, I think that Vegas is too much of a stretch for the Souther California mega-region.

[Ichingcarpenter]

44. I suspect the north south west coast corridor will be built first

connecting up from Canada to San Diego.



Arizona, Colorado and New Mexico have their own plans but ultimately
interstate high speed rail will become a reality

I loved taking the train from Paris to Barcelona so I have no idea what you are talking about.
The Czech republic is not up to scale with western european trains or tracks. Your reference
there is mute.

[Cant trust em]

48. My point is more of the distance/time to travel, not the infrastructure of Czech rail

While I love train travel because I like riding on trains, I don't think that most people who have to take trains regularly will. Actually you're right, that reference is mute because those two randomnly picked cities are too close geographically to be a fair comparison. It would be more like Moscow to Barcelona to be comparable to the size of the US. I think most people are willing to spend a few hours on a train, not a few days.

Secondly, your use of words like "will be built first" and "ultimately" indicate that you're talking about an investment to be made sometime in the future. I agree that this should be done some day, but trying to do it all at once right now is not going to work. Let's not forget that the intercontinental railroad was done first by two privately owned rail companies and we're currently talking about massive amounts of government funding.

[sledgehammer]

78. I think LA to LV is a good idea

There are around 20 nonstop flights a day between the two cities. And lots of buses and, of course, cars too.

A high-speed train, if done right, would make the trip in well under 2 hours. And without the hassle of flying. Plus, trains can go straight into the downtown areas of most cities. And for those who travel by bus (like my parents have done in the past), they wouldn't have to worry about traffic.

You also open up the possibility of day trips between LA and LV. Lots of people who visit one city could add one day as an excursion to the other.

Yes, is is true that there is not much in between the two cities. But railroads have spurred growth throughout history. Perhaps new towns will spring up.

I often have to travel to Boston for work from NJ. I used to fly, but now take the Acela. What comfort! And no airport crap to deal with. End-to-end, it does take a bit longer than flying on average, but with a lot less hassle. And if they upgraded the entire track to true high-speed, it would be the same or faster than flying.

[kiva]

83. Exactly!

Considering the number of people who travel between the cities, rail would be a great choice. If a rail service could tap only a fraction of the traffic, it would certainly prove to be an important investment.

[sledgehammer]

84. Yep

And a great model to follow.

Another area ripe for high speed rail is the Chicago area. With cities like Indianapolis, Detroit, Des Moines, St. Louis, Columbus, Cleveland, Toledo, Dayton, Milwaukee, Cedar Rapids, Madison, Louisville, Green Bay, etc. all within 350 miles, high-speed rail would be so beneficial.

TGV travels at an average, of around 170mph, and that's easily doable in the US if the right investment is done for the tracks. Even if you bring the speed down to 150mph, that entire Chicago region is within 2.5 hours of Chicago. Day trips from Columbus to Chicago become a very real possibility.

After a certain distance, air travel becomes more efficient (perhaps 500 miles). But we could get rid of so much short distance air travel (and encourage so much new travel) if high-speed rail is implemented right.

Bring all the liquids you want, no security lines, no taking shoes and belts off, use your phone and laptop throughout, walk over to the dining car for a snack or meal, no seatbelts, use bathroom whenever you want, no overbooking, no weather delays (except in extreme cases), no holding patterns, etc.

[krabigirl]

69. and the point is? I think it's a great idea. I don't get Americans (and I am one!)

[Cerridwen]

7. High speed rail between Vegas and LA.

It's something those of us who've lived in either of those places have wanted for quite awhile; 20, maybe 30 years.

There is a lot of travel between the two cities; business, fun, family, etc. Driving into Vegas on a Friday night, especially if it's a holiday weekend, is equivalent to sitting in a 60 mile long parking lot. Then there are the accidents; ugly, ugly.

[BuyingThyme]

11. Thank you.

:hi:

[Cerridwen]

13. You're welcome.

I forgot to add education is another reason for the travel. There's also the time and expense and damage to the environment with that volume of driving.

Think of it as a west coast version of a shuttle between DC and surrounding states. It's just our mileage is a bit larger than in the east. In the time it takes me to get from, for example, Las Vegas to the Los Angeles area (about 6 hours depending where in LA), how many states could I cover in the east; 3, 4, 5 (depending on traffic, of course)? We're a bit spread out here in the west. Something many "easterners" seem to forget. :D

[Cant trust em]

19. When the CA high speed rail line is open

I can imagine people in Fresno commuting to LA. It's only a 90 minute train ride from Fresno to Downtown LA.

[enlightenment]

15. Careful, Cerridwen.

This is not a 'DU-approved' project. ;)

Las Vegas is just 'Sin City'. No one lives there, works there, raises family there. It has no history, no houses, no schools - just lots and lots of neon lights and slot machines that steal people's money. It would be wasteful to build rail linking Las Vegas to anywhere. That money should go toward improving rail in real cities.

*or so I've read here*

:shrug:

[Cerridwen]

21. Oh, it won't be the first time, nor the last, that I post non-approved

material on this board. I've my share of deleted posts.

:D

I've also read posters saying LV, Phoenix and other desert cities should just be allowed to die. I understand where they are coming from and I don't completely disagree, however, where shall the couple of million residents of those cities move to? What about those whose health is improved by the dry and the heat?

I'm as "unrealistic" as the next person, maybe more so in some respects. I do occasionally allow my feet to touch ground, however. Dry, desert ground.

:D

[kiva]

30. From another resident of a non-approved city,

hello.:hi: I agree that putting a city in the middle of the desert has its drawbacks but you're right, our cities won't disappear and our residents simply absorb into another place. Besides, gotta love living here this time of year.

[Cerridwen]

34. I'll be back home in about 3 weeks.

We're leaving the Pacific Northwest to return to *snort* The Dead Zone.

I'm conflicted. I'm also homesick. And, I hate packing. :D

[kiva]

38. No matter how careful I am, I always seem to leave something

behind when I pack...the family that I visit think it's a sign that I really don't want to leave, and maybe they're right.

[Cerridwen]

40. :D

Maybe you're just (sub-consciously) leaving your mark.

Or you could be like my SO and have a habit of forgetting things. :D

[blue_onyx]

67. I don't think people want the desert cities to die

My only issue is when the idea about diverting water from the Great Lakes to southwest comes up. Bill Richardson brought that up during the primaries and angered many people from the Great Lakes area. Truthfully, I don't worry too much about the survival of cities in the desert. Most people haven't given a damn about Detroit so it's hard to show any concern for other cities.

I think a high-speed rail between LA and Vegas would be good, but only if funding for high speed rail is given to other areas of the country too. I don't think it would be fair to fund one high speed rail project when there are other cities that could use it too.

[Cerridwen]

72. I've actually read those sentiments here at DU.

It's not uncommon - nor unwarranted.

The water rights debate is a whole 'nother debate that would take this thread entirely off topic.

As to fair,

Nevada
Federal Taxes Paid vs. Federal Spending Received*
1981 - Present

Year..recv'd..rank
........per $

1981 $0.85 43
1982 $0.85 40
1983 $0.85 42
1984 $0.88 41
1985 $0.88 41
1986 $0.98 33
1987 $0.88 41
1988 $0.79 45
1989 $0.83 44
1990 $0.76 46
1991 $0.78 46
1992 $0.74 45
1993 $0.70 47
1994 $0.71 48
1995 $0.73 48
1996 $0.78 45
1997 $0.73 48
1998 $0.75 48
1999 $0.74 47
2000 $0.77 47
2001 $0.75 47
2002 $0.71 47
2003 $0.66 49
2004 $0.62 49
2005 $0.65 49

Per capita, we are ranked 50th since 1999.

details at this link, page 28.

[blue_onyx]

79. Yeah, alot of states send more money than they recieve

Michigan is a "donor" state too. We've moved up (37th in 2005) since the 1980s but we've sent more money to the federal government than we've received every year included in the document. It's nothing unique to Nevada.

I bought up the water rights issue in response to your "people hate desert cities" argument. I don't remember reading anything particularly negative about Nevada/Vegas or other desert cities. The only thing I've heard negative about them has been in response to water issues. If anything, it seems to me that the cities you're talking about get praise, particularly when you talk southern California.

[Cerridwen]

82. Perhaps we're generally at DU at different times.

Though I do see quite a bit of "negative" even in this thread about Vegas. Just as I have read negative posts about desert cities and the water wars.

I wasn't implying that NV's donor status was unique. Just that it exists and that "fair" has little to do with distribution of funding.

[Ganja Ninja]

16. Exactly.

What the hell is so wrong about building a rail line where there's a need?

[Cerridwen]

22. It's a "red herring," a "canard."

It plays into the east versus west, us versus them, way of thinking of some people.

Calling it Disneyland to Sin City just helps catapult the frame to obfuscate the need.

What's always entertaining to me is those of us who want a well-designed public transportation system yet don't have one are THEN villified because we drive everywhere using all that gas and damaging the environment. Anyone who's ever walked a "Vegas block" in 120F weather knows walking everywhere isn't always a healthy alternative.

Having a car in many places in the west is more necessity than luxury. It sucks. But that *is* the reality.

[ColbertWatcher]

28. Agreed; especially if that holiday weekend is Memorial weekend. n/t

[Cerridwen]

36. Or a weekend New Years.

:hide:

[ColbertWatcher]

47. I've never driven the 15 between LA and Vegas on New Years, but ...

... I have seen the world's longest parking lot during Memorial weekend.

Oh, and the heat doesn't help the traffic much.

[Cerridwen]

55. I hide during New Years.

:D

Returning from LA to Vegas on those weekends is brutal. A six hour drive becomes 12; yep, it's happened. I've heard of longer.

The heat, the dust, the fumes...ick, just ick.

[krabigirl]

68. Exactly. It would be great if they could build this. I don't understand the opposition to it.

[Cerridwen]

76. I think the opposition - this is *my opinion* - I think the opposition

has a lot to do with who and what is more deserving and has more value. "Tourism" is of "no value." Vegas is not a "real" city.

Others are "more deserving" than we. There's a whole 'lotta judgement going on in this debate.

That is *my* *opinion*.

[MadBadger]

3. I wonder if they know that Disney is in Anaheim

[Cant trust em]

5. Of course they know.

But that would be the truth, when a lie would be much more convenient.

[havocmom]

8. doubt it. They seem unaware of volcanoes in America

Bunch of narrow minded, ego centric bozos, with blinders on and no ability to experience empathy.

[Cant trust em]

12. They know. Anaheim is smack dab in the middle of Orange County.

It's the epicenter of conservative thought in California.

[havocmom]

14. Used to live in Garden Grove. Thinkin only local GOP knows where it is

Nationally, they seem to think all of California = liberal Democratic movie stars who don't behave like the folks in East Redville. ;) Ignorance is encouraged in the masses when the GOP wants to lead them to BS

[Cant trust em]

18. That's true.

I just wish that once, just once, the republicans would argue with the truth instead of a lie.

I'm easy to please. Just once.

[Greyhound]

71. I believe the middle is somewhere between Irvine and Lake Forest,

maybe a bit further south.

[Winterblues]

6. What , they don't want Mickey and Goofy to gamble?

What is wrong with a magic train from Disneyland to Los Vegas? Sounds like a winner to me.

[havocmom]

9. and they think 'Mickey's dog is gay?'

;)

[spinbaby]

24. I thought Mickey's dog is Pluto

:rofl:

[havocmom]

32. Pluto. Plato..... Old enough to recall the show Soap?

I loved that dialog exchange.

[libodem]

23. So is it true or not?

Or is this another lie that they are all repeating until everyone including Democrats think that it's true? Does anybody know for sure? Reminds me of the "Al Gore is a liar" campaign that went on in 2000. By the time it got repeated that he said he invented the internet, was the title character in Love Story, and discovered the toxic waste at Love Canal, you remember, even I thought he had a huge ego and exaggerated every thing he said and did. Same shit different day.

[Ichingcarpenter]

33. Its not true and not in the bill specifically.

and would have to be worked out between the States Governments anyway.

[libodem]

37. thank you

paging: Keith Oberman, Tweety, and Rachel---other duties as assigned.

[BlooInBloo]

42. I think highspeed rail between LA and LV is a great idea...

Would serve a busy route, and be an excellent posterchild for the entire concept.

[hedgehog]

53. I'll be a contrarian here and suggest that this is an excellent demonstation project.

I assume that obtaining rights to the route will be relatively easy since there are few people living there to be displaced. Alternative transport is already in place, so if the system has to go off-line for repair or re-design, disruption should be minimal.

[GinaMaria]

54. All I could think was

where do I sign up? That sounds awesome. Wasn't it something like a magnetic monorail or something that sounded a bit Sci Fi? I was really excited about that.

On edit: I realize now it was High Speed rail. Still cool though especially if it cuts down on gas.

[Beregond2]

60. What's so dumb about that is, even if it were true,

why would that be a bad thing? A high speed rail line between two big cities...how is that bad? I can remember just such a project being discussed when I lived in L.A. in the eighties, and had it been built, it might have been the successful pilot that led to a full nation-wide system. And had we had that, 9/11 would not have had nearly the impact it did.

All these Republican asshats are doing is trying to stoke the fears of ignorant backwoods boobs, who think anything to do with SoCal and Vegas must be evil. What useless buffoons they are.

[Initech]

63. As an LA resident I can say this is badly needed.

Airfares between LA - Vegas are absolutely ridiculous now that US Air dropped their Vegas hub, and driving with the traffic the way it is most Fridays sucks ass, and the Cajon pass is very dangerous to drive on if you dont know what you're doing. There's got to be a third option.

[Cant trust em]

65. I object to the "disneyland" phrasing

It's Anaheim, GOP idiots. You know, part of the multi-million resident greater Los Angeles area?

[Initech]

73. Which traditionally has not been very GOP friendly.

Easy to see why they hate us.

[spanone]

81. they've been offering that lie for the last 3 or 4 weeks...they love them stupid soundbites