Okay, I need to vent here. I was at a Edmonton Police Commision Meeting on Prostitution.....

[CraftyGal]

Okay the presentations went well. We heard from Vice, from PAAFE (Prostitution Awareness Action Foundation of Edmonton), AADAC (Alberta Alcohol and Drug Abuse Commission) and Mental Health. All good things. It was when the public got up to share. There was one that was insidious in her hate of Prostitutes that she blamed them for EVERYTHING going wrong in the community. I couldn't stand it, I had to get up and share what I know and believe.

Prostitution, at least for someone that is doing survival prostitution, is the symptom just like alcohol is the symptom for an alcoholic. It is that hatred that blinds people to the humanity of a person. I got up and shared a bit of who I am which was really scary as I am a community activist and I am well respected all around. I spoke about a woman that I knew from just walking the neighbourhood who went missing a year ago and was later found in a suburban neighbourhood, murdered. She has been thrown away like yesterdays trash because she was a commodity, a "whore", a second class citizen. This woman had a name Brianna Torvalson. She was a warm loving kind individual who had her life taken away by a predator.

I also spoke about the home invasion that I went through almost a year ago. This Sunday is the one year anniversary of that crime. This was a gang related offense that had nothing to do with the prostitution in the area.

When we get these community people who act like their shit don't stink it scares me. I thouhg to myself what if she knew my deep dark secrets? About my whole life? Would she think that I deserved to be killed just because I am not like her. This is really scary to me and I have to sit on a board with this woman. The whole Not In MY Back Yard is very, very scary.

I am still shaking from this encounter. The Chief of Police came up to me after the meeting and thanked me personally for putting a face to the whole issue.

So now what? I am unsure of how to proceed dealing with the hateful people in my neighbourhood. I can handle ignorance as you can educate, but hatefulness? Wow!

CrafytGal

[EFerrari]

1. How are you doing, CraftyGal? You're one brave lady.

:applause:

[CraftyGal]

7. Thank you...

Still kinda reeling, wishing TrogL would get home.

Craftygal

[Canuckistanian]

2. Ignorance and irrational fear often go together

I suspect this person is ignorant on many levels.

Some can be reasoned with, others not.

[grantcart]

3. your compassion and your intelligence certainly touched many at the meeting

Your C of Police sounds like an exceptional guy.


All you have to do is keep doing what you are doing.


The woman that you speak of almost certainly was raised in a repressive unloving environment and is projecting her feelings of inadequacy back onto people who are weaker than she is.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. M'dear...As the ghods are my witness...

Do not venture south of the border. Really. What you describe is a daily occurrence in every public or semi-public venue available. Two Minute Hate? Shit. We got the 24/7/365 Hate goin' on down here and it makes your opponent sound like an rank amateur.

5 will get you 10 that the crazy lady is either one of them Texas Oil Expatriates or friends with a lot of them.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Thank you for standing up. eom

[Tangerine LaBamba]

You did good.........

Courage is always scary, and you exhibited a mountain of bravery in what you did. I commend you, and I don't even know you.

Putting a human face on abstract principles can throw some people who are much more comfortable with the certainty of their abstractions. You pulled them out of the safety zone and forced them to see a human being behind the intellectual concept.

That's powerful and that's meaningful and that's the best thing anyone can do in this life because you made a difference. It sounds like you rocked the Chief, and I'm guessing that you changed a mind or two. Or more.

You began something good.

Take a bow, hold your head up high, and the people who might try to look down on you? Hey, they can't do it unless you lower yourself, and you are not going to do that.

Mazeltov, pal.

[CraftyGal]

8. Wow, you brought it into perspective!

Thank you. I understand because I have been there myself. Not worked the streets although I am familiar with the Sex Work Industry. It is toughest for the ones that are on the street because they are visible, so they are easily blamed fro all of societies ills. I have had to deal with this woman's hatred for quite awhile now. She hates all sorts of people, such as those in recovery, those hat are poor, well you get the idea. I have received a number of hate filled emails from her. I almost quit a board because of her. Of course I didn' quit, but I expressed my vies in a clear concise manner and that scares her.

Craftygal

[Mister Ed]

6. When my neighborhood was suddenly swarmed by streetwalkers 15 yrs ago, the meeting went differently.

Neighbors were up in arms about it, and circulated fliers, and called a meeting. However, the consensus that folks arrived at was that the women on the streets were simply not the enemy, and were deserving of such compassion and neighborliness as we could offer them.

We agreed to work with local groups that did advocacy and outreach for women in prostitution, while working to make the neighborhood as hostile and unwelcoming as we could to the johns and pimps that preyed on them.

They key word in your post is "educate". Your neighbors need to know what life is really like for those women on the street. Few of them would have the heart to kick a person who's as down as those women are.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

21. great example of a compassionate response

maybe if they saw this way of dealing with the situation, it might bring up more ideas for alternatives to the hate (good to see the Police chief understood about putting a face on the problem)

:applause: CraftyGal for who you are and what you did.

[The Brethren]

9. I don't believe prostitution is the

be all and end all to all problems. It's one of a huge range of problems -- some that are related and others that aren't. But one thing I rarely hear anyone say who wants to do something about prostitution in their neighborhood is regardless of what any other issues it may involve, it comes down an old fashion rule of supply and demand...there are no hookers w/o Johns.

If folks in your area or other areas want to really address the problem, then put their focus stopping the Johns. And if they do....what they may find is that there maybe a whole of lot of Johns, so to speak, right in their own back yard, or their house, or their bedroom. :-)



Know what you're paying for. The Stimulus Plan ("American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009"): Orig. House version -- http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/RecoveryBill01-15-09.pdf , House spreadsheet -- http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pV-c6t5fOVmNorqMpHvnCMw ; Senate version -- http://appropriations.senate.gov/News/2009_02_02_The_American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009.pdf ; and Senate compromise -- http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1 , Text and $$$ details of Senate compromise -- http://appropriations.senate.gov/News/2009_02_08_UPDATED_Appropriations_Provisions_of_American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act.pdf?CFID=4043629&CFTOKEN=40573040 . In addition to -- http://readthestimulus.org/amdth1.pdf , along with -- http://www.readthestimulus.org/ . Final version, Feb. 13th, 1500 pgs. worth -- http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/arra_public_review/ , more details on the final version -- http://www.taxpayer.net/resources.php?category=&type=Project&proj_id=1913&action=Headlines%20By%20TCS , including spending -- http://cbs4denver.com/national/Web.government.accountability.2.937188.html

[CraftyGal]

11. I agree with you there....

one of the things that I have noticed is that johns are coming from other neighbourhoods to utilize the women on our streets. The hassle of us. I usually take the bus to go anywhere. I decided to wear a dress and some really nice shoes that still kept me warm. I wore a real nice winter coat as well. Well I had to deal with some real idiots on the ave. I didn't recognize them from the area. That is what I deal with everyday in my neighbourhood.

CraftyGal

[The Brethren]

16. You shouldn't be treated that way CraftyGal

in your neighborhood or any where else for that matter. If you happen to have a video camera, try using it sometime in your neighborhood when the johns are around and then post it on the net if you want. There are some pretty good reality shows on television and sites online that are doing just that. And talk about scaring the pants off the john. LOL Especially the older ones who don't want the little woman back at home and their grandchildren to know what gramps is doing with a hooker in his car. Except, if you do try and use video cams, be very careful -- keep a cell phone on hand and call police if you need to because some johns may throw a fit. And it's worth your well being.

I've had guys approach me in all sorts of areas: cities; quiet, remote parks; even just walking through a parking lot etc., looking for sex and offering money. And I like makeup and dressing pretty, but I wasn't wearing crotch-high skirts, fishnet stockings, and killer heels.

One time it happened during an afternoon at a park next to an ocean with children nearby. I was sitting in my car facing the ocean studying for finals and this guy parked right next to me. He seemed polite at first, but wouldn't go away. Then he kept offering to pay me for sex. I told him to get away from me. He wouldn't, so I tried to move my car to another area in the park. Except he followed me. I then drove over to a cop nearby and the jerk finally took off....with the cop chasing after him. What this guy did bothered me, but what really ticked me off the most was that there were young children nearby where this creep approached me.

[ConcernedCanuk]

10. hatefulness is best handled by ignoring it - be "aware" of it, but don't respond

.
.
.

As for the prostitution thing - some are willingly in that profession

I have no idea what percentage is desperation or choice

either way - they all deserve to be treated like the rest of us expect to be treated

That's my opinion anyhoo . . .

[CraftyGal]

12. Thanks....

wouldn't it be lovely if everyone was treated equally?

CraftyGal

[iverglas]

13. well hmm; I'm not ignorant, and I'm not irrational

I do live in a prostitution-ridden neighbourhood of a large Canadian city.

And I don't like finding people performing sex acts in my back yard. It has happened.

I don't like finding used condoms and needles in my back yard. It has happened.

I don't like having my front porch used as the waiting room for prostitutes, who dump their trash there when they go.

I don't like having my block used as the rendez-vous point for prostitutes and their johns and dealers, transacting business a few feet from my door.

Does being a prostitute mean never having to say you're sorry, or something?

Yes, I despise the johns and dealers with a far whiter passion than anything I feel about the prostitutes.

I happen to be able to afford to live somewhere else if I want. I don't. I like my ordinary-people, immigrant, working-class neighbours. And they, for the most part, can't afford to live somewhere else, or at least somewhere else without similar problems.

Why are they and I the villains because we expect to be able to live peaceably in our own homes?

I can respond to all this myself. Prostitutes are overwhelmingly women with major personal problems. The immediate problem is usually addiction, and the addiction is the predictable result of being on the street and the problems that brought them to the streets.

But how is it that we, me and my neighbours, are expected to bear all the fallout from these problems and not object?

We aren't the ones who abused the women when they were young; we aren't the ones who hooked them on coke; we aren't the ones who infected them with HIV or who rape or beat or kill them. Why are we the ones who have to live with what they do and get called names if we want the authorities that we elect and the municipal services that we pay for to do something to protect US from these problems?


I like the analysis presented by a Quebec organization at hearings into prostitution laws here a while back: prostitution is the method by which organized crime funnels money from the pockets of stupid, unpleasant men into the pockets of drug traffickers. The prostitutes are merely the pickpockets, picking the pockets of the stupid, unpleasant men at their request.

And I like the approach adopted by Sweden: outlaw the purchasing of sexual services. And enforce that law. No more fucking john schools for the assholes patrolling my streets and harassing the women who live on them, and exploiting and abusing the women who work them.

Eliminate the demand and thus the cash transfers, and you eliminate the means by which organized crime profits from prostitution. No way for the prostitutes to earn the cash to pay for the coke, no incentive to hook them on it. (And yes, that is the process; I've seen it played out between small-time dealers and teenaged girls on my corner.)

But I'm sorry. If you're not interested in addressing the problems that street prostitution causes for the people who live on those streets and choose to dismiss their concerns by calling them "ignorant" and "hateful", I see those words being turned back on you rather easily.

[ConcernedCanuk]

15. We can never eliminate the demand for prostitutes, hookers, whatever you want to call them

.
.
.

Sex is like alcohol, cigarettes, drugs . . .

If people want it, someone is going to supply it.

IF we decide to regulate it, then we have to do it wisely

just to make it illegal

don't work

Prohibition should have taught us that

we have to DEAL with the sex trade

we'll never eliminate it

NEVER

[iverglas]

17. tell it to Sweden

You might want to do a little research before you try.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=sweden+prostitution&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

You can start at the top:

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

Obviously, a single piece of legislation has not transformed the society overnight. No legislation does that.

Your prohibition analogy is about as stupid as when the gunheads try it on.

Prostitution is not an addictive substance. Prostitution is not something that regular, ordinary, normal people enjoy a little of on social occasions.

Prostitution is not normal. It is an exploitive, oppressive practice that men engage in against women, that organized criminal networks use to make money, and that no decent society approves of or tolerates if there is a choice. The fact that it is inextricably bound up with human trafficking in various forms is good enough reason in itself.

And no, I'm really not interested in any responses painting prostitution as some sort of legitimate choice or prostitutes as empowered women, or johns as anything other than scum.

[ConcernedCanuk]

22. Interesting - the use of the word "scum" - My landlady has expressed that's what she thinks of men .

.
.
.

something to ponder

It IS an unusual word don't you agree??

and you sorta put the kaibosh to any further discussion on the topic

oh well . .

[ThomCat]

24. Why would you expand

Johns = scum to men = scum?

Not all men buy prostitutes? Not even close? Or are you implying that buying prostitutes is something all men do, or something all men should have a right to do?

:shrug:

I don't see what your objection is to the above post.

[ConcernedCanuk]

43. My landlady is USAmerican - I never heard a Canadian refer to men as scum

.
.
.

I notice these things . .

[iverglas]

50. your powers of observation are failing you

Either that or your ability to engage in civil discourse.

[iverglas]

32. so?

My landlady has expressed that's what she thinks of men .

That had nothing to do with anything I said. But it was nice of you to let me know.

and you sorta put the kaibosh to any further discussion on the topic

Actually, misrepresenting what the person you are speaking to said does that quite effectively.

[CraftyGal]

18. Actuallu I have been working with the community to clean up the problems...

such as drug houses, pimps and drug dealing that is done out in the open. What I have found out about the dropped condoms is that it is often the johns because the don't want the evidence of the deed done in the car. As for the needles, are absolutely sure it is the prostitutes? Not every drug addict is a prostitute. If I see a dirty needle, I contact the police and they contact the van that deals with the needles. Not every drug addict is a prostitute. Not every prostitute is a drug addict. You looking at the fallacy of the undivided middle here.

CraftyGal

[iverglas]

20. oh for pity's sake

Gosh, duh. No, I didn't know that not every IV drug user is a prostitute ...

I do know what I see on my own block, thank you.

I suppose that not every couple engaging in sex acts in public places and on other people's property in my neighbourhood are a prostitute and a john ...


Anyhway, here's a tip. It worked for me.

Two years of complaints to the landlord about a particular house on the block, occupied by dealers and frequented by their various customers, produced no action.

A letter detailing the activities on the premises (and the street and sidewalk), which none of my neighbours had the guts to co-sign, and threatening a lawsuit in nuisance -- interference with the use and enjoyment of my own property -- had their stuff on the street by next garbage day. My city counsellor requested a copy of the letter for distribution. I don't know whether anybody's tried it or had any success elsewhere.

Absentee landlords are in it for the money; threaten their bank accounts, and they may pay attention.

[CraftyGal]

25. Actually again that is some of the stuff that a committee I am on is doing.

We got the support of the Chief of Police to do the various community oriented projects, such as Block Captains (different than neighbourhood watch), CRUD (Community Response to Urban Disorder), report a John/Drug House (EPS initiatives) and other programs. What upset me with this woman was that she identified the woman who had been involved in a crime by the word prostitute.

Say a someone was murdered in a community, and the murderer was a I don't know...for arguments sake a chef, well they are not identified in the community as a Chef that committed a murder. It is just stated that this person ahs been charged with murder. I have seen this over and over. However if a prostitute had committed the same murder, she/he is identified as Prostitute arrested for murder. That is what I am upset with. What about Prostitute found Murdered, or Another Prostitute has Gone Missing...etc. I could go on ad nausium.

What frustrates me is that people don't see the women as human beings.

Craftygal

[conscious evolution]

29. Molotov cocktails also do wonders

So I hear,anyways.:evilgrin:

[readmoreoften]

27. Delete

[treestar]

52. the woman who spoke was apparently ignorant and hateful

blaming everything on the prostitutes. That was the point, no one said anywhere anything further than that this woman was hateful about it. No one said anything about ignoring the problems.

[Juche]

14. I admire you canadians

I really do. You are like a more innocent, loving version of us. The fact that your police chief proactively tried to put a human face on prostitution is just icing on the cake. Tandalayo_Scheisskopf said it well.

As for your deep dark secrets, I have to struggle with that too. It is hard because you feel like you can have friends and a decent life, but if people find out about the humiliating things you've done and had done to you, they will abandon you or turn on you, or at the very least never look at you the same. I have no good advice, but you aren't the only one who has to struggle with that dilemma and the feeling of isolation and social nakedness that comes with it.

[stevedeshazer]

19. Good for you for standing up

Keep speaking out. The truth is powerful.

[Smith_3]

23. I think prostitutes deserve societies greates gratitude. I think we should give them major benefits.

Health insurance, the lowest tax rates and a huge government provided retirement check. People who look down on prostitutes are idiots.

[barbtries]

26. hopefully she's shaking harder than you are

someone who sits on a board and brings her hate to the table is probably not a danger to you. you are a danger to her, because you shine light on the creepy crawly thing she really is. you should feel really good about speaking out it took guts and you have guts. Yay for you!

you can handle hatefulness, you just proved it. how did she handle you?

[CraftyGal]

34. Well um she didn't.

I didn't realize she was standing behind me when the Police Chief said thank you for bringing the human factor to the table and then shook my hand. I was a bit flustered because I have never met the man. I have attended a number of community safety meetings that he has been conducting. However I have never actually spoke to him.

I just believe that whne something isn't right to speak up. I don't who will?

CraftyGal

[readmoreoften]

28. Thank you. I generally judge people by their opinion of prostitutes.

I'm serious. Considering that some police forces considered their deaths NH or NHI (no human involved), my gauge on people's humanity is based on people's opinion of prostitutes. Women as well as men.

[Blue_Tires]

30. it was brave of you to speak your mind

a man wiser than myself once said having enemies was a good sign of one's character because at one time or another that person stood up for a principle...

[lightningandsnow]

31. Thank you for posting this.

I hate the whole "Not in my backyard" attitude.

[iverglas]

33. well hey then

How about I give the prostitutes operating in my back yard -- LITERALLY -- directions and cab fare to yours?

How about "not in ANYBODY's backyard"?

[Spazito]

36. You're posts often make some good points but they are so full of ...

vitriol and sarcasm as well that the good points you may be making are lost and the only successful thing they have accomplished is to piss off a whole lot of people.

Congrats if that is your intent, you have done well.

[iverglas]

37. gosh

Did I forget to give you a little heart pic?

If you have something to say on the subject at hand, I'm sure you'll say it.

Evidently, you prefer gossip and tittle-tattle and personal invective. Your choice!

[Spazito]

38. Thank you for the further illustration of my original point n/t

[iverglas]

39. aw, c'mon

Tell everybody what it's really about.

I'm not a Liberal Party shill, and I must be silenced.

[Spazito]

35. You're actions are exactly why boards made up of ordinary citizens are....

so vital. You may not have impacted the woman who could not contain her hate but your courage in standing up and confronting the woman, not by insulting her, but, instead, putting a human face on those the woman had just condemned, may well have caused others to look at prostitutes more humanely.

Please stay on the board as you are, imo, incredibly valuable to your community even if they don't yet see it.

[CraftyGal]

40. Wow, thank you...

I kept thinking after listening to her tirade, when I had walked into the room she had greeted me warmly, wow if she only really knew me, you know. I was even thinking of the other Canadian poster on this thread and thinking the same thing. I really believe that society is to blame.

In Vancouver there are over 60 women and transgendered missing, of which 26 were found on the Pig Farm. There is still an unidentified woman who skull was connected to the same farm. On the Highway of Tears, Hwy 16 near Kamloops, there are 19 women, primarily aboriginal women, found murdered, and many more are missing.

In Edmonton we have had 2 serial killers of prostitutes and teenagers arrested and convicted. There have 26 murders since 2006, and we have had 8 more names to that list. This is happening all across Canada.

Society has put the term no human to these people and yet it the "respectable men" who go are actively looking for these women! The same men who use those terms. If that hurt, TFB, the truth can be painful.

CraftyGal

[Spazito]

41. I live in St. Albert and your OP brought back my memories of the prostitute murders...

and I was living in B.C. when the outcry about the "missing" prostitutes was being ignored by law enforcement for years and when the serial killer was finally apprehended only because his property was searched on a gun violation I believe. Appalling.

We need people like you to continue to serve on community boards, I know it is hard when you feel like a voice in the wilderness as I have been there as well, because your voice DOES make a difference in the end.

I believe we do need to legalize prostitution and I hope, one day, we will get there but, until then, we need people like you to fight on.

[CraftyGal]

45. I actually would like to decriminalize solicitation, living off the avails and keeping a common

bawdy house. These laws are ridiculous! As it stands a Sex Worker (prostitute) can't have a spouse/partner because the law views them as a pimp who is living off the avails of prostitution. You see in Canada prostitution is not illegal, it is solicitation. This link Prostitution in Canada does a much better job of explaining the laws than I do.

I lost 2 friends on the pig farm. These were women who were protective me because they counted me as a friend, part of their "family". I had a run in with that killer and the girls saved me. I was just walking home when he stopped and asked if I wanted to go party at the Piggy Palace. I don't party and I was pregnant with my daughter. The girls noticed him talking to me and that he wouldn't take no for an answer. The stepped in and got me away from him. They walked me home and left. I knew them throuhg an outreach program that I worked at. I started their because I thought I could somehow save them, they in fact saved me in more ways than one.

CraftyGal

[Spazito]

47. OMG, CraftyGal! I don't know what to say except....

I am saddened by your loss re your friends and am glad you had such friends near by to rescue you. Your post brings the horror that was the pig farm into a greater reality to me. I have shivers at what might have been for you.

You are right, I should have been more clear in my point re prostitution/solicitation, it was careless of me and I totally agree re:

"I actually would like to decriminalize solicitation, living off the avails and keeping a common bawdy house."

[CraftyGal]

48. No problem...

I am so used to correcting that assumption...lol.

CraftyGal

[iverglas]

51. have you investigated this idyllic world of decriminalization at all?

I actually would like to decriminalize solicitation, living off the avails and keeping a common bawdy house. These laws are ridiculous!

There's lots of information available about what happens when that happens.

This a short introduction I find instructive, also addressing the alternative Swedish approach of criminalizing the purchasing of sexual services while decriminalizing the service providers activities:

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

... This Swedish experiment is the single, solitary example in a significant sized population of a prostitution policy that works. In 2003, the Scottish government in looking to revamp its own approach to prostitution enlisted the University of London to do a comprehensive analysis of outcomes of prostitution policies in other countries. In addition to reviewing Sweden's program, the researchers chose Australia, Ireland, and the Netherlands to represent various strategies of legalizing and/or regulating prostitution. The researchers did not review the situation where prostitution is criminalized across the board as it is in the US. The outcome of that approach is already well known. The failures and futility of the revolving door of arresting and rearresting prostitutes is all too familiar the world over.

But the outcomes, as revealed in the Univ. of London study, in the states under review that had legalized or regulated prostitution were found to be just as discouraging or even more discouraging than the traditional all round criminalization. In each case the results were dramatic in the negative.

Legalization and/or regulation of prostitution, according to the study, led to:

* A dramatic increase in all facets of the sex industry,
* A dramatic increase in the involvement of organized crime in the sex industry,
* A dramatic increase in child prostitution,
* An explosion in the number of foreign women and girls trafficked into the region, and
* Indications of an increase in violence against women.

In the state of Victoria, Australia, where a system of legalized, regulated brothels was established, there was such an explosion in the number of brothels that it immediately overwhelmed the system's ability to regulate them, and just as quickly these brothels became a mire of organized crime, corruption, and related crimes. In addition, surveys of the prostitutes working under systems of legalization and regulation find that the prostitutes themselves continue to feel coerced, forced, and unsafe in the business.

A survey of legal prostitutes under the showcase Netherlands legalization policy finds that 79% say they want to get out of the sex business. And though each of the legalization/regulation programs promised help for prostitutes who want to leave prostitution, that help never materialized to any meaningful degree. In contrast, in Sweden the government followed through with ample social services funds to help those prostitutes who wanted to get out. 60% of the prostitutes in Sweden took advantage of the well funded programs and succeeded in exiting prostitution. ...

[CraftyGal]

53. Interesting article....

It still deals with laws. Which is great for those who have been victimized through prostitution. What about the ones that choose to enter into the sex work industry, like massage parlors, escorts or the adult film industry. They have made some kinda of choice to use their bodies for money. Should the still be penalized?

CraftyGal

[iverglas]

42. were you?

I was even thinking of the other Canadian poster on this thread and thinking the same thing.

That would be me then?

wow if she only really knew me, you know.

Was there something you wanted to tell me about you? Something relevant? There's nothing about you that would likely be relevant to anything I might think or have to say. I don't assess anyone's positions on matters of public interest and policy by who or what they are or have been. I might find the point of view worth knowing about because it could mean that the positions are more or less worthy of consideration, but the identity or status or background of the person would not be relevant to me in itself.

I'm a woman. I've been a victim of sexual assault and extreme violence. I might very easily have ended up one of those bodies on the side of the road. And the police might have reacted the same way they all did when I was missing a few years earlier -- a long-haired blue-jeaned pot-smoking placard-waving bra-less hippy university student who didn't arrive on a plane at the appointed time where her parents were waiting for her, last thought to be hitchhiking to Toronto (as I was, and was doing, when I was abducted three years later) to catch the flight. Oh, they said, you'll never see her again. I was just ... gone. No need to go looking for me. In fact, I was sitting in a snowed-in airport waiting for a flight to replace the one that had been grounded, with no way of contacting anyone to let them know what had happened. But nobody bothered to find that out. Because of who I was, I didn't matter.

I'm also a member of a community, a resident of a neighbourhood, that I care about. I have been the voice of the voiceless here, of the neighbours who don't speak English and need help to deal with authorities and to speak up when we are collectively disregarded (not to mention of all my actual clients, refugees and immigrants and vulnerable minority women).

I have not expressed any hatred of prostitutes here -- of anyone except the johns and dealers and pimps who oppress and exploit them.

But I am also not willing to acquiesce in me and my community being the victims of the prostitution business. We are not at fault. We have done nothing to deserve the disruption and fear and harassment that prostitution brings to our streets. We don't want it in our backyards. You're right.

But this is NOT "nimby". We are not saying it should be moved to someone else's backyard. We aren't saying Ew, we don't want this, send it to somebody less able to defend themselves. That's what nimby is. And it cannot be pinned on us.

It isn't up to us to solve all the problems of the "society" that you say is to blame. Society is to blame. Not us.

I don't know this neighbour of yours. She may be a perfectly horrible person. That doesn't delegitimize her desire not to have the prostitution trade destroying her neighbourhood any more than your own personal characteristics delegitimize whatever position you are advocating.

[CraftyGal]

44. Okay, I didn't mean to offend you...I didn't know you were Canadian.

I thought it was ConcernedCanuck that made the comments. Be that as it may, TrogL has asked me not to go public with all my deep dark secrets so to speak. Lets just say that I understand all sides. I want to make clear that in this report from this community member, not once did she mention the typical stuff, such as the needles or the condoms or anything else. It was about a tragic murder of an elderly member of the community.

What people don't realize is the fear that the women go through. If you have a pimp, you have a quota to make or they will beat you. The pimps need to make an example of you. Even if you work indoors (massage/escort) you could get a hefty fine or not be able to work if you make a complaint or report a "bad date". Beside who would you go to, the police?

I to have been a survivor of spousal abuse and sexual assault. Last year I went through a horrible home invasion where the lives of my step-daughter and I were threatened, at the hands of gang members.

I am not saying that there aren't big issues related to prostitution, however the flip side is why should the respect us if we cant respect them? That is what was behind my original post.

It isn't up to us to solve all the problems of the "society" that you say is to blame. Society is to blame. Not us.

Yes I do say that, because if we as a community cannot respect these women, who live in the community. Then why should they have to respect us? Respect is earned not a right. It is the same when we have children. How do children learn respect if they are constantly ridiculed and put down?

I was out one evening just walking along the avenue and this is what I saw:

1) a women had trash thrown in her face and called a crack whore piece of trash.
2) Another woman had a bucket of cold, soapy water thrown at her from a car. The pimp came up and started wailing on her for ruining her outfit and make up. Yes I did call the police and they said oh well she was trailer park trash and a whore.

These two incidents were done by people that called themselves Citizens Patrol and they are community residents. TrogL and I own our own home and we originally moved here so that we could be closer to kids, they lived with mom at the time. My husband and I are part of the Block Captain Program, which is not a vigilante program. We notify the neighbourhood of issues, such as break in , car thefts, etc to our block. We help set up block party so that we know who belongs in the neighbourhood and who doesn't. If we see illegal activity we deal with it by calling the police. Often we keep a journal of what activities is happening and have neighbours call if they feel unsure of what they can do.

So I am not saying oh there, there and give them a pass. To quote a movies "If we treat our students like animals, that's exactly how they'll behave!"-Lean on Me. WE still need to stamp out anything illegal.

What I am saying is that everyone should be respectful to on another. These women have been beaten into submission and will do anything to prevent the wrath of the pimps coming down on them.

CraftyGal

(edited to fix a mistake about another poster)

[iverglas]

49. let's think straight here

I didn't know you were Canadian.

I think it was in the first sentence of my first post here. I live in a low-income, largely immigrant, prostitution-ridden neighbourhood of a large Canadian city.

What people don't realize is the fear that the women go through.

I'm not "people". I understand a fair bit.

Beside who would you go to, the police?

You (i.e. someone) work in a job where you are subject to violence and if you go to the police you will lose your job.

I'm sorry, but why are you working there, again?

Because you're basically fucked up and sick and addicted? Okay. Let's outlaw the purchasing of sexual services. Make the men whose money goes to the prostitutes, for them to pay the dealers, criminals. Not candidates for john school, let alone the Senate of Canada. (Remember the famous cardiac surgeon in Canada's capital picked up for soliciting from his car? Senator Dr., now.) Let's see how many men go roaming the streets and abusing prostitutes then. And how many "massage parlours" stay open.

Yes I do say that, because if we as a community cannot respect these women, who live in the community.

Excuse me, but who is this "we"?

I live in my community, and I don't bring scummy men and scummy drug dealers into it, to sell my services and buy their goods. I don't hang out on the properties of other people's homes soliciting for prostitution and providing sexual services for money, and tossing my trash around.

I respect my neighbours who are working long hours and raising their kids and tending their gardens. They don't do any of those things.

Where is this lack of respect starting? Who is not respecting whom? My lack of respect for them is a result of their behaviour, which demonstrates a complete lack of respect for me and my neighbours -- the community they supposedly live in.

I was out one evening just walking along the avenue and this is what I saw:
1) a women had trash thrown in her face and called a crack whore piece of trash.

Well, I can't say I've ever done that. I've said quite a few other things to various prostitutes in my neighbourhood, generally involving instructions to get the fuck off my block and stay off my block - or my porch or my driveway, if that's where they happen to be. I don't know whether they live in my community or not, but I do know they don't live on my block. We're very slightly lucky that way these days.

Again. The problem isn't who/what they are, and that isn't what my remarks to them are about. Not that the remarks I get back aren't 100% about who/what I allegedly am. The problem is what they are doing.

2) Another woman had a bucket of cold, soapy water thrown at her from a car. The pimp came up and started wailing on her for ruining her outfit and make up. Yes I did call the police and they said oh well she was trailer park trash and a whore.

Frankly, the cops in my neighbourhood are altogether a little too chummy with the prostitutes for my taste. Part of that neighbourhood policing, keep the prostitutes safe policy we have around here, I guess. I've done the take the plate number, record the visits jive for a household on the block a few years ago -- the pyjama-wearing Hugh Hefner wannabe pimp/dealer and his pregnant prostitute wife, a pair of charmers. When I and my neighbours inquired at a community meeting as to what the police were actually doing about "Bill", we were told they used him for information. How nice for the rest of us.

To quote a movies "If we treat our students like animals, that's exactly how they'll behave!"

I'm afraid that if one starts out by behaving like an asshole, one should not be surprised that one gets treated like an asshole. No prostitute in my neighborhood started out by behaving like a good neighbour / member of the community. (We may also have different, uh, classes of prostitutes. Ours don't actually wear makeup.)

I want all of the resources and supports our society can marshall -- including the criminal law against johns -- to assist women in this situation, a situation that no sane person with choices would choose, to get out of it.

But I am simply not the bad guy for wanting them the hell off my block, off my front porch and out of my actual backyard.

[TWiley]

46. Religion ,and more specifically, the bible is the problem

Both teach idiots to hate for gad.

[Uncle Joe]

55. Jesus never taught to hate, although he wasn't too happy

with the money changers doing business in the Temple.

[Uncle Joe]

54. You did good, CraftyGal.

Thanks for sharing.:hug: