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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 01:47 AM
Original message
Want To Save The Economy? Enact Healthcare
I live in the UK. Here, I am covered by a communist socialist sensible healthcare boondoggle system. Naturally, I use this state handout system as reference for comparisons to the American system.

Now, why would healthcare save the economy? Well, for several reasons. Firstly, a universal healthcare system would inject a lot of money into a lot of industries. A universal healthcare system needs to build hospitals and roads to connect them. That pumps a stack of money into the construction industry. Then you need to fill that hospital with medical equipment, beds, a canteen. That's lots of money going into those industries. Then you need ambulances, lots of money to the auto industry (maybe enough to save that too). Then you need people to work there. Doctors and nurses are obvious but what often gets overlooked is that a universal healthcare system also needs a lot of jobs which can be filled by unskilled or semi-skilled workers: Janitors, groundskeepers, cleaners, a cook and serving staff. New jobs for people who currently don't have jobs. I've known people who filled similar jobs with the NHS and their wages, while not luxury, were decent; an honest wage that you could live off knowing that you were a productive, valued member of the workforce. We're not talking Porsche territory here but we are talking about a fairly recent Ford. And their jobs are pretty much recession-proof. Rain or shine, boom or bust, people still get sick and need looking after. Until the day we invent a panacea, people will need hospitals and those hospitals will need people to run them so the jobs aren't going to go away whenever times get tough.

Financially, universal healthcare saves you money. Really. OK, it costs an ungodly amount of money to set-up but running it year-on-year is pretty cheap. And unlike bailing out the banking industry, that ungodly amount of money only has to be spent once and you have a gleaming new health service to show for it. The combination of Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance costs the US populace around $2.3 trillion annually. The NHS has an annual budget of roughly £62 billion a year. In American terms, that's slightly over $2000 per citizen. So, applying the NHS model, covering the entire US population would cost around $600 billion a year, slightly over a quarter of what you currently pay. Even if you apply the French system (generally regarded as the world's best), the annual cost would only be around $900 billion, less than half of what you currently pay. That means that firstly, you don't have to buy private insurance and secondly, tax cuts (yes, lurking conservatives, universal healthcare means tax cuts); both of which put more money in your pocket and don't most of us want that? Conservatives often proclaim that universal healthcare would mean massive tax increases but the evidence says exactly the opposite, the evidence says that because of a simpler system, economies of scale and lower admin costs (private insurance generally spends about 20% of it's outlay on admin, the NHS spends 6.8% on an admin staff which is unionised with pensions and benefits), universal healthcare is cheaper. Mike Moore has made this point several times: If you include the costs of healthcare, Americans pay higher taxes than the French. At the very least, the fact that universal healthcare which doesn't have to make a profit, is cheaper than private healthcare which has to show a profit (preferably a collosal one) to it's stockholders should be so obvious that it doesn't need stating.

But isn't that messing with the free market? Well, firstly, what's so sacred about the free market? Seriously, I want to know. Hasn't the current economic divebomb shown that free markets uber alles is a failed philosophy? As the late great Molly Ivins said, the market is a great tool for creating wealth but we have to have regulation because people cheat. Secondly, yes, it's messing with the market but it's messing with it in a way which has to be done. There are certain services which we all need (or at least need to have access to) constantly: Water, electricity, gas, healthcare. One could make an arguement for telecoms to be thrown in there as well. These things are essential services, we all need them or the option of them and we all need them all the time and because of that, free market principles don't work on them. If the price of a Big Mac (for example) gets too high, you can just skip lunch or go to Subway, no big deal but you cannot choose to do without the essential services because it is virtually impossible to live without them in the modern world (at least, in any kind of meaningful way). That creates what is called a "captive market". You can jump from company to company but you cannot leave the market altogether and that allows those companies supplying the essential services to game the system, keeping prices within a few cents of each other and, essentially, price-gouging. For example, there are the pharma companies on the Fortune 500 list. Those ten companies have combined profits (not turnover, profits) that are greater than the other 490 companies combined and that is largely because you cannot choose to not buy their products except at great risk to your health and/or life. Whenever the essential services are privatised, the same thing happens: Prices soar, service deteriorates and standards are taken out back and shot. This happens every single time, as predictable as the sunrise. I lived through Maggie Thatcher's (and, to a lesser extent, Major and Blair's as well) drive to privatise everything in sight here: We privatised electricity, water, gas, railways, the mail. In every single case, prices exploded (500% in some areas) and the standard of service plummetted. Every single time.

So no, the market is not always right. The free market only works when it's free. A captive market is not free, by definition. However, if you insert a fallback option (universal healthcare in this case), then the private companies have to compete for your dollar. To convince you to take out private insurance instead of relying on the USHS (for lack of a better term), they have to offer a better product at a competative price. Call me crazy but I always thought that was the essence of capitalism.

Incidently, and this is an old observation, it is not in the interests of pharma companies to end diseases. It is in their interests to treat diseases.It is in the interests of universal healthcare systems to end diseases because that then removes a cost from their budget. Just something to think about.

Finally, there's prevention and this is best illustrated by example. I'm one of those horribly stubborn men who hates to go to the doctor (even universal healthcare can't cure this one) but I also suffer from Major Depressive Disorder. As part of my treatment for that, I'm prescribed antidepressents and every so often, I have to go and get checked out to continue getting them (to check I'm not suffering from any side-effects and suchlike). My last check-up showed I had slightly high blood pressure. Because this was caught very early during a routine check, it can be easily handled by a few minor modifications of my lifestyle and diet (and quitting smoking, I'm ignoring that one). Total cost to the healthcare system: Perhaps ten minutes of the doctor's time and whatever the pamphlet he gave me cost. Now, imagine that I was getting billed for every check. Would I have been getting treatment for my depression in the first place? Maybe but probably not. Would I have gone in for a check-up and paid the exhorbitant co-pay? Almost certainly not. Which means the problem with my blood pressure wouldn't have been caught for some time, quite possibly so long that the system would have had to expend funds on medication to deal with it.

I suspect I may be becoming boring at this point so this will be the last post I make on this subject for a while. If I give anyone the impression that the NHS is perfect, I apologise. It's not perect by any means, I'm not sure anything could be but it's safe to say that the disadvantages you hear about are exagerated. Yes, there are sometimes waiting periods for necessary but non-emergency surgery but firstly, that's considered a bad thing and we're trying to fix it and secondly, do you really not have waiting times in the US? Can you really walk into a surgeon's office, slap your money on the counter and have the operation there and then? Or do you need to find or maybe save the money, make an appointment, wait until the doctor can fit you in? If you think about it in logical terms, you already have waiting periods, you just don't call them that.

And morally? Well, if I need to morally justify universal healthcare to you, you have more problems that I can help with...
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Bravo!!
Thank you for posting!
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. I've heard that once you're over 65 you can't get angioplasty done. Is that true? n/t
Edited on Fri Feb-13-09 01:54 AM by Mind_your_head
edit: correcting your, you're mal-exchange
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. And at what age can you get it done here?
Without the old cash on the barrelhead?
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Well, that's the thing....you can get it done here AT ANY AGE, as long as you
Edited on Fri Feb-13-09 01:57 AM by Mind_your_head
can afford it/have the money for it (or are under insurance).
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Not as far as I know
Obviously, it depends whether your doctor considers it necessary but AFAIK, there isn't an automatic cut-off age.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. It won't happen on Obama's watch, but it's inevitable down the road
Just hope we don't have to wait til the South American socialist revolution makes its way north.

K&R
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zagging Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. I hate to be a stick in the mud, but
"Now, why would healthcare save the economy? Well, for several reasons. Firstly, a universal healthcare system would inject a lot of money into a lot of industries. A universal healthcare system needs to build hospitals and roads to connect them. That pumps a stack of money into the construction industry. Then you need to fill that hospital with medical equipment, beds, a canteen. That's lots of money going into those industries. Then you need ambulances, lots of money to the auto industry (maybe enough to save that too). Then you need people to work there. Doctors and nurses are obvious but what often gets overlooked is that a universal healthcare system also needs a lot of jobs which can be filled by unskilled or semi-skilled workers: Janitors, groundskeepers, cleaners, a cook and serving staff. New jobs for people who currently don't have jobs. I've known people who filled similar jobs with the NHS and their wages, while not luxury, were decent; an honest wage that you could live off knowing that you were a productive, valued member of the workforce. We're not talking Porsche territory here but we are talking about a fairly recent Ford. And their jobs are pretty much recession-proof. Rain or shine, boom or bust, people still get sick and need looking after. Until the day we invent a panacea, people will need hospitals and those hospitals will need people to run them so the jobs aren't going to go away whenever times get tough."

As far as an economic stimulus, we've already got all the infrastructure and professionals. It's not like we'd be building a brand new system from scratch on a desert island, just modifying the source of revenue for providers.

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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Hmmm
Well, my presumption was that a new system would be built as an alternative to existing providers, rather than simply changing the billing address. Besides which, it's generally agreed that public works are a good way of stimulating the economy and every nation always needs more hospitals.
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zagging Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I don't know about that
Edited on Fri Feb-13-09 02:15 AM by zagging
Hospital locations, and the general regulation therein are directed at the state level depending on need. My presumption is that the need is already taken care of. I suppose one could assume that if directed at the federal level, some infrastructure shifting would be necessitated by demographic populations without regard to state borders, but I don't think the over all infrastructure would be greatly affected.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. No, we'd be more like Canada. Public funding and private delivery
Mostly. Publich health would continue to be a government option.
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zagging Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I agree with that. n/t
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I'd LIKE to say 'welcome to DU', but "NO".....your outlook is just too negative.
Edited on Fri Feb-13-09 02:21 AM by Mind_your_head
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfHnzYEHAow

on edit: can't get my your, you're s straight tonight *sigh* But watch the clip ~ you won't be dissappointed ;-)....well, maybe you will be if you are a republican assh*le b*ttplug.,,,,vitter, haggard sort of duplicitous b*stard.
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zagging Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm not trying to be negative
Edited on Fri Feb-13-09 02:27 AM by zagging
But realistic. States already regulate the location and procedures which hospitals can provide based on the need of the general demographic. I don't see an economic stimulous provided by enacting a federal single payer system. I was not denigrating the proposition, I was just proposing that there would not be an economic stimulous as a result.

On edit to your edit: Consider what I'm saying. I didn't slam single payer, just the economic result of what the OP proposed. That is, unless you're an as*hole, buttpl*g, and all the rest, etc...
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. 'Miracles' do happen among people who have the will and imagination.
"Proclaimed experts" be d*mned :P
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. K&R...
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
16. kick for morning crowd n/t
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
17. Well said
K & R.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Cheers n/t
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
19. REC
Big D'oh!
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. But... but... but...
"They" keep telling us (lying to us) that you have to wait forever to be seen by a doctor, and you really hate the system!

You better rethink this...

:rofl:
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. 'Fraid not
I could ring my doctor this morning and I'd probably get to see him today. At very worst, my appointment would be Monday morning (Sunday is emergency-only).

I think a lot of people are put off by the fact that we moan about the NHS so much. We do moan about it a lot but moaning is the British national passtime, we moan about everything. Odd thing is, whenever someone suggests doing away with the NHS (and the occasional barmy MP does), we shout them down and boot them out of office...
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
21. Well said. n/t
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
22. Great post, Prophet, thank you! n/t.
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