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Did anybody catch the PBS documentary of Lincoln last night?

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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:05 PM
Original message
Did anybody catch the PBS documentary of Lincoln last night?
I thought it was really well done and looked at the man as he was and not some glorified object on Mount Rushmore. I think by humanizing him Abe still comes out as our greatest president.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Man, those Sons of the Confederacy were batshit insane, weren't they?
I was really looking forward to that Michael Healy documentary that came on after. Great character, but the documentary wasn't well put together.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. yes, that was interesting especially when the black family came out.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry I missed it... btw, you do know that Lincoln is not on Rushmore
Edited on Thu Feb-12-09 12:09 PM by hlthe2b
right? Just teasing--the RW desperately wanted Reagan on it.... and ditching Lincoln seemed like their plan after they remove FDR from the dime.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Really now?
Interesting that his bust is up there on the Mountain. Is it an imposter?


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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Dumbasses didn't know why FDR was on the dime....
The MARCH of Dimes, for which he rose a TON of money fuckheads!


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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Exactly.... Ignorance breeds Repugs breeds Ignorance...
Vicious Cycle...
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. you are talking about ronny raygun fans
of course they are that stupid. and hate FDR. because he gave a shit.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yes, I've read several books comprised of letters to FDR and ER.
They gave a shit. ER received more letters her first year in DC than Hoover got in 4.
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hwmnbn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yep, I thought it was excellent ...
They put his life in perspective of the times. He lived in an era even more socially complex than ours. He seemed to be a consummate politician at the same time a deep thinker.

What blew me away was the fact that the Lincoln-Douglass debates were wildly popular in their day. Attended by upwards of 20,000 people at some sites, I wondered if there were sound amplification equipment back then.

I am tempted to trek on down to Springfield, IL to see that museum and learn more about Lincoln.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I want to see the Lincoln Library and Museum as well.
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I went to the Lincoln Library and Museum summer before last. It is most excellent.
I've been to several presidential libraries, and this is far and above the best. It's quite interactive, and great for the kids too. My kids were 11yo and 5yo at the time and really enjoyed it.

We recorded the special from last night but haven't watched it yet.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I coulda done without the Bush parts
See, Lincoln was villified just like me.

Some of the anti-Lincoln sentiment seemed motivated by black nationalism.

"During the heyday of the Black Power movement, I listened to speaker after speaker in a Mississippi forum denounce whites. 'They are your enemies,' thundered one black militant. 'Not one white person has ever had the best interests of black people at heart.' John Brown sprang to my mind, but the speaker anticipated my objection: 'You might say John Brown did, but remember he was crazy.'" (Loewen, "Lies my teacher told me" 1995 p. 177)

This idea of de-mythologizing Lincoln is not new to this program. As Loewen wrote of high school history textbooks in 1995 "However, most textbook authors take pains to separate Lincoln from undue idealism about slavery. They venerate Lincoln mainly because he 'saved the union'. By far their favorite statement of Lincoln's, quoted or paraphrased in nine of the twelve books, is his letter of August 22, 1862, to Horace Greeley's New York Tribune: ... Ironically, this is also the Lincoln whom black nationalists present to African Americans to persuade them to stop thinking well of him." p. 180
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. yes
Edited on Thu Feb-12-09 02:58 PM by Two Americas
There is an important issue here, and that is that whites have controlled the narrative about emancipation and Lincoln, and much of it is skewed to make whites look good. I am more than willing to give wide latitude and serious consideration to alternative narratives about Lincoln and Emancipation from Black scholars taking a Black perspective. I am completely intolerant and dismissive of the revisionism coming from right wing sources, which is unfortunately getting traction among liberals.

The letter Lincoln wrote to Greely is the most abused and misapplied and misrepresented document of all time, I think. The point of Lincoln's letter was to make a distinction between his personal stance on slavery and his view of his public duties and authority. It was pretty gutsy of him, because it was the truth and certain to piss almost everyone off. He said that his public duty was to preserve the Union, whatever that took. That meant that he was constrained from using the presidency to dictate Abolition. Then he said that his personal position was that all people should be free. That was a strong anti-slavery statement. Anyone accurately reading that - and ironically the pro-slavery people did know exactly what he was saying and what his intentions were more so than anyone else - would recognized that he was going to look for a way to liberate the slaves, within the framework of his Constitutional duties as he saw them. And as soon as he could see a way to cut the Gordian knot, he did.

Lincoln was a politician. So of course he compromised and horse-traded and did all of the things that any and all politicians do. Did Lincoln free the slaves? No. The slaves freed themselves. Did Lincoln facilitate that as much as any politician could have under those circumstances? Yes, I believe he did. So did the slaves at the time, and they are the ultimate authority on the subject. So did the Confederates, and they had the most to lose.

Frederick Douglass deserves more credit than Lincoln, in my opinion, for Emancipation. Lincoln did the one thing that a politician in a representative democracy can do and that we should expect them to do - he listened and figured out a way to get it done. That is especially relevant to our current political situation. During Lincoln's administration, there were many people saying that critics of him should be silent and that we should all just trust him, and saying he was the best we could hope for and that he knew what he was doing so we shouldn't second guess. But the reason we elect a politician is not so that we can all fall into blind obedience behind them, but rather in the hope that they might listen to the grievances of the people and respond. They can't listen and respond if we are all passive and silent for fear of "tearing down" some politician we are enamored with.

It is a good thing that Douglass didn't "get behind Our President" and stay silent. Lincoln listened to him, yes, but Douglass did the work and should get the credit. Today, we should be careful not to call for silencing of critics for the sake of "loyalty" to "our leader." That sabotages the dynamic process of representative democracy, and will cripple the new administration.

I don't think that placing Lincoln on a pedestal, nor pulling him down off of the pedestal is very useful. We ought to be talking about the pedestal - which is built on racism and privilege and American exceptionalism - not the person on the pedestal. Lincoln was but one player in a grand struggle, and many other players get far too little recognition. Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, Frederick Douglass, and Angelina Grimke all come to mind.
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JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. I got a lot of interference
because of the weather,but the part I actually got to see was fascinating. My Tv started acting up just as Gates started interviewing Bill Clinton

dammit

then I got to see the part where he interviewed BUSH ( I hit the mute button it till his part was over)

It is on again , so I will try again!

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