ARGH! Its tough being an Evil Landlord!!!

[IdaBriggs]

I'm a 4th generation landlord; we took over managing some property for my mother after my father died. It doesn't make a profit, but I was raised that it is an honor to provide good quality housing for people. We have 8 rooms that are rented out (there are two buildings) and a three-bedroom apartment that used to be where my mother lived before we relocated her to a smaller, less memory filled condominium. The kitchen in the 3-bedroom unit is amazing; it also has an office, a fireplace, and a two-car garage. We pay for the gas, electric, water, trash pickup, and outside maintenance (the two buildings are on an acre of property in a great neighborhood, and there are three deer that visit). I grew up there, and its where my father passed.

I made the mistake of moving in a family that was having some problems last June. Instead of listening to my mother, I got nervous because it had been empty for two months (this is the 3-bedroom unit), and accepted folks I shouldn't have. She was working two part time jobs, and he had a good job at a local factory; they shouldn't have had any trouble paying the modest rent.

They were late on their first month's rent payment after moving in (July); I should have evicted them on the spot, but we switched it from a monthly rental agreement to a weekly one, which they assured me they would have no problem paying. They paid mostly on time in August, and did okay in September, but then the husband was hospitalized for diabetes related problems AGAIN, and they stopped paying at the beginning of October.

He doesn't work in a union shop, so he didn't have any short-term disability. No work = no pay. I'm not sure what happened to the wife's two part time jobs, but apparently, she isn't working them anymore. I started eviction proceedings in November (delayed it while trying to work with them), and they were hours away from having their stuff put on the street two weeks before Christmas (please keep in mind they kept making promises as to when they should get some money, and I delayed as long as I could), when we struck a deal on December 10th to keep them in the place.

I shouldn't have done that. They still owe money on the judgment from the end of November, and haven't paid anything toward the 'currently due' rent since. They told me they'd catch me up with their income tax refund, and hoped to have his social security disability under control by then. (He ended up having surgery last month to remove a portion of his lung, and is back in the hospital again due to an infection.)

I'm being told they are now having marital issues (understandable with all of the stress they are going through), and he might not come home when he is released from the hospital/doesn't plan on paying me off with the income tax refund because he's leaving his family, which means either a) I get to keep supporting them, which I can't do, or b) I get to toss them out onto the street, because so far, they aren't leaving on their own. I am not sure why the wife isn't working, but apparently she can't find anything. She spends a lot of time dealing with different agencies, and chasing down stuff for his medical problems, but that isn't paying the bills, and its killing us.

My mother is doing her best to bite her tongue, because obviously, I've been an idiot. They were living on the financial edge, and now they are taking my family down with them. Its the 11th of the month, and I haven't paid the mortgage yet. I had to beg for an extension last month to keep on the heat and the electric for ALL of us!

She was served yesterday with a court date (February 24th); they will have about two weeks afterwards before the sheriff's department will put their stuff in the street. It will cost me several hundred dollars to get her out, and the odds are good we'll never see the money they owe. I'm not sure what I'm going to do to keep everything from going into foreclosure at the moment, but if I can't figure it out, everyone else is going to end up homeless, too. Trying to be 'nice' to this family has literally destroyed our credit.

The most annoying part is that I *knew* better, intellectually. There was a part of me that knew I was being fed a line of crap, but when she told me she had found a job in December, I thought there was a glimmer of hope, plus hello! Tax refund time is a good time to catch up on things, and a guy who needs to have a hunk of lung pulled out sounds like someone who should be getting disability to me. But honestly, I kind of got the idea they 'knew the system' and there were a lot of clues that they had taken advantage of it in the past.

They've got two young adolescents, plus a returning twenty-something year old living with them. They are going to end up on the street, but frankly, I need to get someone in the property who can actually PAY THE RENT which is used to PAY THE MORTGAGE. In Michigan's economy, that might take a bit of time, despite how reasonable the rent is, and how nice the place is.

We are screwed.

[WI_DEM]

1. You are not an evil landlord if you keep the apartments up, make repairs and don't charge

more than it's worth and show compassion. Also letting them know expectations. You have no doubt done all of these things and you have given them chances. You have a right to expect tennants who will pay you for the housing you are providing, for a fee, to them. You have done nothing wrong.

[IdaBriggs]

4. Thank you. I agree with you intellectually (as I said, its an honorable thing)

but its going to be hard as hell to watch as their stuff gets put on the street. My mother says they are living beyond their means, but with no income/no savings, BREATHING is beyond their means. They have been to every agency they can think of, I've filled out a ton of paperwork on their behalf, and NOT ONE GOVERNMENT AGENCY is willing to help them financially. His disability claim was rejected; he now has an attorney, but frankly, we all know getting SSD can take up to three years. In the meantime, his job won't take him back because his doctors won't release him, and oh by the way, his company just laid a ton of people off over the holidays, so there isn't a job waiting for him when/if he recovers.

:banghead:

[bluestateguy]

2. When their lease is up can you just not renew them?

I don't know the laws in that regard, but can a landlord just wait difficult tenants out?

[IdaBriggs]

5. I have to evict them if they won't leave. Michigan is a Tenant Friendly state.

Our rental agreement has a provision about renewing, but eleven weeks of non-paying CURRENT rent, plus a thousand dollars still owed on the prior judgment (which was supposed to be taken care of by January 10th) is going to trump that. Renewal won't become an issue until May, and most likely they will be gone by then; the pain, however, will still be here. Sigh.

[Warpy]

3. At some point, it becomes an "us or them" situation

and probably the best thing you can do at this point is save yourself.

My heart bleeds for these people, too, but a foreclosed property isn't going to do either of you any good.

Putting them in touch with the state welfare office might do some good if she's not working now. It would be cheaper to pay the rent than it would be to house them in a welfare hotel, but you never know what the state will do and you're SOL on the back rent even if they keep them where they are.

Just chalk it up to "no good deed goes unpunished." You took a chance on these folks and through little fault of their own, it all went pear shaped.

It's an ugly situation that will likely haunt you in years to come, but what good will it do them if you're out on the street with them?

[peace13]

6. I am sorry for your pain.

Your story is a good reminder that in these hard times we will all face decisions on who we can and can not help. The bottom line is that things are done with 'the good of the order' in mind. Don't kick yourself about this. Go forward. Thanks for the reminder. Best wishes. Peace, Kim

[NNN0LHI]

7. I recently considered purchasing a rental property and realized I couldn't do it

Wouldn't be my cup of tea.

I have enough problems of my own to have to be worried about someone else and how that could effect me.

Sell them for a loss if need be and get your life back before the pressure from this stuff kills you.

Thats my advice.

Don

[hfojvt]

8. you really should be making a profit on 8 rental rooms

Surprising to me that you are living so close to the edge that three months of not getting rent sorta pushed you over it, or very close. It sounds to me like the renters are having a much tougher time of it, and at least they burned you because of their own bad luck. Whereas one of my renters quit paying rent because he lost his job because he smoked pot. The other one had some boyfriend issues and one angry guy who broke down her/my front door. At least I got their damage deposits.

[IdaBriggs]

11. Only 6 are rented at the moment; we just had one guy disappear

owing three weeks rent, while the last room is usually vacant in the winter/rented to a returning snowbird in the spring. Our cash reserves were tapped previously; the place they are renting accounts for the biggest income the property produces, which is why it covers the mortgage, while the other folks cover the gas, electric, water, trash pickup, taxes, and insurance. In a 'normal' market, it would be different, but we've had to drop rents to be competitive, while the expenses have increased. I agree that their luck has been bad, but its my fault I let them get so far behind: I kept believing their promises. Who knew the guy who begged me to be patient just until his tax refund came back 'when he'd get everything caught up' would decide to let his family get evicted instead?

I obviously don't know everything going on; I should have listened to my instincts, but I felt bad for them, and really believed they wouldn't screw me.

I was wrong. :shrug:

[barb162]

20. Yeah I think the rents should be raised.

The landlord has to look out for the landlord and have some safety net.

[madmom]

9. Don't know if this will help or not, but, my son was laid off and was behind in his rent, he

files for cash assistance through the state (Ohio) and they sent a check directly to the landlord. He and/or his wife have to put in so many hours of community service type work. They also helped with utilities. Good luck and you are not a bad person.

[IdaBriggs]

14. She has been working with several different agencies here in Michigan

and so far, they haven't been helping. Once I evict her, they will help with security deposit and first month's rent on a new place, but the amount they are allocating for rent and expenses for a family of 4/5 isn't going to cut it.

I don't know why I keep worrying about her problems, especially since she's created so many for me, but I do.

My mother is right; I am an idiot. :banghead:

[madmom]

16. You're not an idiot, just someone with a heart.

[barb162]

21. Say it a million times

"I am not responsible for these deadbeats." They weren't paying you on time even when they were working!

[monmouth]

10. What I wouldn't give to be able to rent a lovely place like yours...sigh...n/t

[IdaBriggs]

12. It looks like I have a vacancy coming up! LOL!

It is a beautiful place. Shortly before my father died, my mother finally got the kitchen of her dreams. It is gorgeous -- double convection ovens, 'hot tap' on the sink, and FIFTY (!) cupboards in a big, country kitchen with pergo-type floors. The family joke is that after 30 years of being married/raising six kids, she finally got her dream kitchen and then never cooked again! LOL! The wife cried when she moved in, because it isn't a normal 'rental' property; its a home, and it shows. Sigh.

[monmouth]

15. That's pretty much my situation too. Unless my son comes to visit

(he's the great cook of the family) Marie Calendar is my chef mostly..LOL. Plus, if you're in MI and I'm in Florida, well, today is in the high 70s...

[EFerrari]

13. Everyone I know, including us, has done that at some point with a tenant.

Don't feel bad, IdaBriggs.

[IdaBriggs]

19. Evicted them, or screwed up with people who weren't going to pay?

I have had to evict 'non-payers' in the single room units before, but that seemed different somehow. This is a family. The dad is in the hospital AGAIN/STILL. We forgot to be born rich, tho, and its my job to take care of my family, which honestly, is partly why I feel so bad -- I failed at that. I let myself get played, even though I think they had good intentions.

Plus my mother warned me about them, but I brushed her off thinking it would be okay. That stings quite a bit, too. She says she knew better because she's made the same mistake in the past (I know she's telling the truth), but this is probably going to be the one that burns for a long time.

Learning experiences suck. :(

[barb162]

23. The next few weeks watch very carefully if it looks like they're moving out.

They may take some of your stuff (fixtures, carpeting, etc) with them. That happened to me once. Do you have a good sized security deposit on that apt?

[EFerrari]

25. Screwed up with people who were going to be trouble and especially

in the "give them another chance" department because you just want things to work out for everyone.

Learning this way really does suck. :(

[barb162]

17. There's nothing like a tenant who pays on time and doesn't destroy the place.

I've been a landlord and and know several others. I've noticed a friend's tenant who could never pay the rent on time every month, but she was getting big tattoos and sending her kids to dance lessons every month.

You are not a bad person; you have bad tenants. "They were late on their first month's rent payment after moving in (July);" Definition of a bad tenant there.

If you do end up evicting them in early March, don't even think of feeling guilty. It sounds like these people were living on the edge even when they had jobs and you got suckered by experts.

I would start looking for new tenants immediately; put an ad in the paper now!!!! Get rid of them soon even if they show up at the door with all the money they owe you.

[barb162]

18. PS You are definitely not an evil landlord. You're a saint.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

22. Definitely goes in the "no good deed goes unpunished" file

Bad for you and bad for them - their story sounds pretty awful.

A suggestion for the future might be to see if you can get your house approved for Section 8 housing. People always think they will get undesirable tenants when they hear the phrase Section 8(I guess because it's a crime to be poor), but actually you will get tenants who have been through a process and have their rent guaranteed. I think Section 8 sends the checks directly to the landlord, but I'm not sure about that.

Maybe landlords on this thread can point out the pros and cons of Section 8. I know the house has to meet a certain standard, but it certainly sounds like yours would.

[guardian]

70. You have it wrong--sometimes a sterotype fits

I've been a small landlord for 15 years and have 6 units. The reason people think of Section 8 is undesirable tenants is because they generally are undesirable.

The reason that most people on Section 8 end up on Section 8 is that they tend to have bad judgment. They don't pay their bills, overextend, are drug addicts, have other criminal backgrounds, associate with other people who get them in trouble, etc. etc.

The Housing screening process it is shit. In my personal experience with Section 8, they tend to lie to the Housing office. They have employment/income off the books (and not paying taxes) in violation of their Housing agreement. They ignore provisions in the lease agreement. Bring in extra people to live in in the unit. Trash the place. Spit off the balcony. Through cigarette butts all over the place. Break beer bottles in the parking lot. Let their non-approved pet ruin the carpet, padding, and subflooring, doors and walls. You get the picture.

From what I have seen they tend to be very self absorbed--it's all about them and what society owes THEM. They want to play their music loud at 2:00 am. They don't care. They don't have to get up for work at 6:00 a.m. And they sure as shit don't care about bothering their neighbors.

Section 8 will send a check every month. But that hardly pays for the lost rent from vacanies of the 3 neighboring tenants they drive away because of their behavior. Or my getting phone calls at all hours day and night with complaints and my having to take extra time to deal with endless problems. Then you have to go through the expense, time, effort of an eviction process. Small claims court--what a joke. You can't get blood from a turnip. Okay--you get a judgment. Then what? They have no job (at least a legal one) so you can't garnish wages. They have no assets. So all going to Small Claims Court does is waste your time and another $200-$400 in court costs, process server fees, etc. They already had shit for credit history and could care less if you put another bad mark on their credit.

I'm sure there are exceptions. I can see perhaps someone that came to be on Section 8 through illness, or death of a spouse, or some other incident beyond their control. But let's say 80% are as I described above. Do you really want to deal with 4 tenants in a row, just to maybe get one good one?

I'll let others deal with Section 8--you can have it.

[williesgirl]

24. There's nothing wrong with you, it's them. They weren't paying you even when

they were both working. Get rid of them quickly and don't look back. Just be grateful if there's no damage to the place. I have a home that's been empty since last March when I moved my daughter back here. I've been afraid to rent it and couldn't sell it. I had brand new hardwood floors installed throughout the house and really worry about someone damaging them. Plus the town it's located in was very illegal-immigrant friendly for about 3 yrs and we're paying the price for that now. 5 and 6 families went together and got subprime loans, then walked when local communities started cracking down on employers of illegals. Many of them stayed in the area though and are looking to rent homes. They destroy them even if they pay their rent. They just pack too many people in them and disaster results. There are so many empty, foreclosed homes and more on the horizon. So consider yourself lucky even though this has been a nightmare.

Good luck to you. rec'd

[4_TN_TITANS]

26. Dude, you need to exercise some tough love.

Realize that you have done more than enough to try and work with the family and put an immediate end to this situation. If they are taking down you and the other renters, you have to cut them loose.

I'm not heartless and willing to help people down on their luck, but the survival of my family comes first and foremost.

[Two Americas]

27. kicking for future reference n/t

...

[TWiley]

28. I have a rental in Michigan too

My rental does not pay for itself either; I still have to pay the taxes and a little bit on the mortgage / insurance. I am not renting it at market value, it is quite a bit under, because I have good tenants and I want them to stay. I have put more into maintenance than I have made in rent since I have owned the home as well. Roof, electrical, furnace, plumbing, and tree pruning just to name a few maintenance items.

The dynamic of someone irresponsible taking down your family with them is a real danger. If I loose my renters, I will be real selective finding new ones.

[renate]

29. you are a sweetheart of a landlord

I'm so sorry... you've been so kind. Don't feel bad--you went above and beyond, trying to help them out and giving them so many extra chances. But in this economy more than ever, you shouldn't feel guilty about not letting them drag you down with them.

You are an O8)

[Kashka-Kat]

30. I feel your pain - I'm going to have a talk w/ my tenant tonight and see if we can negotiate

when she moves out - if its gonna be April, May, or June. No later.

Like you I got bamboozled into setting aside my screening policy - requiring an income of 3x the rent amt. - because I happened to know this woman's former apt. manager and she leaned on me hard to accept her ( and her kid I might add, which adds to the guilt factor in making someone leave.)

To her credit, she does eventually pay but its so erratic and irregular and is getting later and more irregular all the time, and the last straw is she's been running space heaters 24/7 to the tune of an extra $200 a month - WHICH I am stuck with paying like I have it to spare. Evidentally 68 is too cold for her.

[Ilsa]

31. You've done all you can. ALL OF YOU could end up on the street

if you don't get some paying renters onto your property. Tell your mom you tried to do the right thing. It could have gone either way for that family.

Bless you for trying.

[IdaBriggs]

32. UPDATE: SHE BOUGHT A NEW CAR!!!

I am awake and absolutely enraged! I spoke to the wife tonight, who told me the husband is definitely NOT coming back, and she finally admitted she got the tax refund, AND BOUGHT A NEW CAR because HE plans on keeping their other one, and she therefore had "no choice" about it. I told her she did so have a choice -- she could have paid the rent, and she said she realized she can't afford it without the husband (which she can't, since she doesn't work), and since he is leaving her, she and the kids need to find housing/he'll be taking the car since its in his name and she'll move out as quickly as she can, but she PROMISES SOMEDAY we'll get our money.

She didn't give us a dime, but she bought herself a new car.

Words fail me. She has financially destroyed our family, but she bought herself a new car, and she spent their entire tax refund on it.

I am so furious with her -- and to be honest, ME!!! -- I can barely type. My husband wasn't even surprised; he expected something like this, and just gave me a 'you should have booted her out already/you are the one who let her get away with this' speech.

Words fail me. He is right.

SHE BOUGHT A NEW CAR!!! :banghead:

[EFerrari]

33. Can you file in Small Claims? Omg.

I hope you're keeping notes / a timeline. :mad:

[IdaBriggs]

34. She (they?) still owe a thousand dollars on our previous judgment,

and I'll get another one on the 24th for the rest of what they owe (11 weeks and counting!). I'm going to be making a phone call to the hospital tomorrow to talk to the husband, which I have been deliberately avoiding doing prior to this out of respect for the fact he's in the freaking hospital, and I *assumed* the wife was acting in their mutual interests. Now I'm not sure what to believe, since its pretty obvious she's been doing some intentional misleading, if not outright lying.

I still can't believe she didn't give us a dime. I keep stopping myself from typing all sorts of nasty names. Man, she SCREWED me, and she knew she was going to do it.

ARGH!!! :mad: :banghead:

[EFerrari]

36. If she bought the car outright, maybe it can be awarded to you.

If she bought it on time with a down payment, maybe the deal will fall through. Is there a dealer license plate holder?

What a piece of work.

ETA: I hope they both signed the rental agreement?

[IdaBriggs]

38. Its possible; I'm going to look into it in the morning/talk to the court

folks. I don't even know what kind of car she bought, but I know they were expecting a substantial refund based on previous years, and she told me tonight 'it was all spent.' Prior to this, she was saying the husband was refusing to give her any of the tax refund money because he was planning on leaving her, but I pointed out tonight in conversation that since they were married, filing jointly, he couldn't cash it without her signature, and HELLO! he was in the hospital! That's when she finally 'fessed up. She's known she was doing this for days.

They both signed the rental agreement. If he has half a brain, he'll keep the kids, and boot her out, but who knows? She keeps saying he is 'deserting the family' but He Is In The Hospital, and as far as I know, has been there for three weeks, minus two days when he went to his brother's because they were fighting. (Please keep in mind that I only know this from what she says, so who knows if its true or not?)

Its weird to me that she can't find a job; my ex-brother-in-law, no car, no license, just got out of a rehab program, who lives in the same neighborhood, found one within walking distance in less than a week of trying. Of course, he was actually LOOKING....

ARGH!!! I AM AN IDIOT!!! :banghead:

[EFerrari]

39. I don't anyone who hasn't made this mistake. It just comes with the territory.

Whatever their deal is, it's not your problem. If they both signed, they're both responsible whether they stay together or separate or move or stay.

[LostinVA]

50. Since he signed, he HAS THE PAY THE RENT

It doesn't matter if he's there or not.

Kick their asses out NOW (as soon as you can legally), and cut your losses.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

35. Okay

I am going to be the a-hole. As a landlord, you are a business man. You should have listened to your mom who knows best. THere is nothing you can do about it now besides cutting your losses. For the future, get some guidlines on who you will rent to and stick to it.

[IdaBriggs]

37. You aren't being an asshole. You are right, and so was my mother.

I knew the rules -- I grew up watching them -- and I bent them for these people. I was nervous because the place had been vacant for two months, they had cash in hand, looked like good employment, and their references checked out, BUT their credit was iffy, and they had a sporadic payment history with their previous landlord, which they had a reasonable explanation for (she'd been laid off, but was working now). I also know the rule about 'evict immediately' but I let myself get played. I have lost track of the 'just give us a few more days' speeches; they keep planning on getting checks any minute from fill-in-the-blank.

My mother warned me about people like this, but I had to get burned myself because I really thought these people were just going through a temporary trouble that was going to be controllable, and kicking a family out two weeks before Christmas as he was waiting to find out if he had lung cancer was more than I could stomach. Plus, the answer seemed so reasonable -- income tax refund to catch everything up/get ahead a bit, and a decent lawyer to fight for his disability. There is also a rich brother in the picture someplace, but he apparently has been burned before, and refuses to help. That was kind of a serious warning, and is one of the clues I've been watching for the last couple of months.

I didn't take care of business. Now I'm burning. But she's still not a nice person for buying the damn car.

[JVS]

41. Oh! Boot them the hell out of your place.

[LostinVA]

49. Did her husband sign the lease -- if so, he IS legally obligated to pay the rent

Even if he doesn't live there.

I'd start eviction proceedings NOW, and file with small claims TODAY.

[IdaBriggs]

40. MORE UPDATE: She bought the car last week!!!

I talked with the husband -- I had to call him at the hospital, which made me feel like a scum. I talked to his brother, also. She bought the car last week while he was in surgery, and it is one of the reasons he isn't coming back to her. He specifically told her to pay the rent, and she decided to buy a new car instead. He apologized all over the place, but there is nothing he can do, and isn't sure he will leave the hospital alive, as he has almost died twice now, and is fighting two serious infections.

She played me. I'm calming down, but I'm still beyond words pissed. At least I know what is going on, though. She played me.

Expletive deleted.

[Robb]

42. I sympathize. Sincerely.

The sad truth is some people simply choose not to do the "right" thing.

Unfortunately, all you can do now is use the system to get the place empty for the next one.

I became an unwilling landlord this year. It's really quite simple, all a landlord really wants is to get paid rent on time. 99% of everything else a tenant can do really won't bug you. But the simple contract of getting rent in exchange for living there is the biggie. And when people BS you, you feel betrayed, in part because it's so simple.

I have a family under my rental roof, and they're circling the drain, and I'm bending over backwards to help them, and I'm starting to feel bitter about it. I haven't, but I know if I catch her in a lie it would send me over the edge.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

44. I have a friend who is a landlord and his ONLY piece of advice is

DO NOT LET the tenant's problems become your problems.

The second they are late, he starts the eviction. He can stop it if they catch up, but his tenants know he is not fooling around. He also says you have to do this the FIRST time shit happens and then it won't happen again.

[LostinVA]

51. He might be playing you, too -- remember that

Don't believe either one of them.

[IdaBriggs]

53. Its possible, but seems unlikely at this point -- he is going to be

hospitalized for at least another week, and frankly, isn't sure he'll get out alive, as his surgery to remove a piece of his lung has become infected, resulting in the surgery he had last week while she was out buying the car. His brother spoke to me (his family doesn't get along with the wife), and they are just trying to keep him alive, and are sorry for the rent trouble (but won't do anything about it). I spoke with the family minister, who has been counseling everyone, and told me he personally knew that the husband's instructions were to pay the rent with the tax refund, but the wife decided a car was the more urgent problem.

The husband isn't playing anything at this point -- he is on pain medications, and sounds horrible. There is nothing he can do about the situation at the moment.

Honestly, there is nothing anyone can do. I just need to clean up the mess, pay the financial piper, and pray God we don't lose everything. Our credit is officially destroyed.

I am still stunned about that. We went from being in good shape less than a year ago, to missing mortgage payments/being in danger of having utilities turned off, over SOMEONE ELSE'S PROBLEMS -- not even our own.

Add to that the fact my husband is employed in the Michigan auto industry, and we are on the edge of disaster ourselves.

Lesson learned; time to put my head down, and get to work taking care of business.

[Shakespeare]

55. Ida--you probably already know this, but once you have the second judgment...

...have judgment liens recorded for both of them with your county recorder (PM me if you need help with this or have questions), and in any county they move to (if you can track them down). It only costs a few dollars to do this. At the very least, it'll stop them from obtaining a mortgage (or any other large-form financing), for years, and may keep them from even getting a lease if a potential landlord does a records search, unless and until they pay you back (that's usually a good motivator).

I'm sorry you're going through this--what a horrible situation. :hug:

[Kashka-Kat]

43. Just a question here - what exactly is involved in eviction and just having someone come (sheriff?)

and get there stuff out? What's involved - cost, court appearances, etc?

It hasn't come to that for me but it might be good info for me to file away in the back of my mind.

BTW, please do feel free to vent. This is the place to do it! Also if you have a car - use it as your primal therapy space and scream out every vile thing you would say to their face if you could. (Don't actually dump it on them bc that could create a real mess.)

In short, get the emotion out. That has the effect of really clearing your mind to be able to start to think as an adult of how exactly to deal with it and where to go from here. Good luck!

[IdaBriggs]

45. It takes a bit of time, and please be aware this is Michigan specific.

First you have to give them a seven day notice to quit. This part is 'free' and if they pay/catch up, it just goes in your file for future reference. On the 8th day, you file a complaint/summons with the court. This is where you spell out the money they owe you, and that you want the property back. If they pay before the court date, you can't boot them out. They *must* be served 'in person' to receive a money judgment. If you just want them removed from the premises, the mailed complaint works, but let me repeat -- if they aren't served IN PERSON, you can't collect.

Usually a court date is two-three weeks out. Make sure you put in the complaint that you want money while the clock is ticking. Then you go to court. Either they pay before court, or they don't. Usually my tenants don't show up because if they had the money, they wouldn't be in this mess, and they don't want the humiliation of having to stand in front of a judge and say they don't have the money. The judge will sign a JUDGMENT ordering them to leave the premises within 7 days (or is it 10?), and saying they have to pay you. It will be mailed by the court, but you have to have it prepared for signing with the amount you are requesting.

Then they have another 7-10 days to leave/pay you. To retake possession, you must have a specific court person (they will provide you with a list) go and serve them the final 'get out in the next fill-in-the-blank time, or you will be removed'. Here you can give them 24 hours or up to 30 days. Then, when they don't leave, you send the specific court person back, who gives them ANOTHER 24 hours, and THEN you have to pay for a sheriff department sanctioned team to come in, pack their stuff up, and haul it to the curb.

Now you can start prepping the place for the next tenant. :eyes: It will have cost you approximately $500 to get them out, not including the lost rent.

You have to wait 21 days from the time of the Judgment before you can take the paper to their job (if they have one) and start garnishing their wages, or their bank to garnish their accounts. You can also file the judgment with the IRS, and garnish their tax returns, but I've never done that personally. You have up to three years (I think) to collect on the judgment; usually a Landlord is just so happy to get rid of them, its not worth pursuing. Also, be aware that the last two weeks are ones you don't have a Judgment for, so you have to re-sue them if you want to keep their security deposit!!!

[pipi_k]

46. Wow...now I feel like a shit...

Because once upon a time, when I was very young and very stupid, I also had a couple of problems paying rent.

It never occurred to me at the time (like I said, young and stupid) that my problems, whatever they were, could have such an impact on the person who owned the building. :(

I'm now older and own my own home. I don't even know if I'd want the aggravation of renting it out if that became an option/necessity.



Anyway, my BIL owns a few rental properties and is a sucker for a hard luck story. I can't count the number of times he's had to do eviction proceedings against tenants who haven't paid their rent in months. Family members have, on occasion, advised him to just sell the damned buildings but for some reason he refused. Of course now, what with things being as bad as they are, his rental problems are likely to get worse, and he probably can't even sell the buildings for what he still owes on the mortgages.

NOT a good time to be a landlord in this country!

:(

[pipi_k]

47. PS....

although reading further, it occurred to me that I never bought a new car and then failed to pay the rent.

So at least I wasn't that big of an ass...

[petronius]

48. I don't think you're being evil at all - I'd love to have a landlord like you

At this point, though, it sounds like you're just going to have to draw a line and stick to it. You've bent over backwards so much farther than any (I mean this in the kindest possible way) sane and rational person would do, and you are clearly an amazingly kind and generous person, but you have to put an end to it.

It's not evil, you shouldn't be embarrassed about being 'wrong', it's not unfair - just take it as a learning experience and move on...

Good luck!

[IdaBriggs]

52. Heck, I want a landlord like me -- free housing for several months,

then a new car instead of paying the overdue bills -- woo hoo! The bottom line is I didn't take care of business. I am working on forgiving her AND myself, and will do everything I can to get past this. If everyone ends up homeless in this story (my other tenants, my mother, and my husband/children/me), you will be hearing a lot more whining; she knew what she was doing, and I let myself get played. I've talked to a couple of other people at this point, and I keep getting the same message over and over: consider it a valuable learning experience and move on. Hopefully, that won't involve foreclosure stuff -- I'm not sure where the mortgage money is going to come from for this month or March (expecting she'll still be there until the last possible minute). Then we have to find a new tenant/get it ready for them....

If I worked on wall street, I'd be getting a bonus! LOL!!! :banghead:

[Evoman]

54. Man, I wish you were my landlord. I ALWAYS put my cheque into the landlords slot

the day before rent is due. Always. Never missed a payment. I also plant flowers and take care of the garden FOR FREE. My landlord just sold my building, though, and now the other apartments are renting for 300 dollars more than mine. Because the new owners don't know me for shit, they will no doubt raise my rent.

[Xithras]

56. I discovered years ago that being a landlord requires a level of assholeness.

Speaking as a landlord: I've probably owned a dozen rentals over the years (both of my remaining investment properties are for sale right now) and I keep them in top shape. I cover landscaping, insect service at no fee, the essential utilities, and keep everything in perfect repair. That said, I learned years ago that I can't let myself get sucked into someone elses sad story and bend the rules in the name of charity. I have very high rental standards: No more than one move in the past three years, income at least 250% of the rental amount, no active collections in the last 5 years and no overdue bills in the past two, etc, etc. When I hold to my guidelines, I invariably end up with good tenants who stay a long time and take good care of the properties.

I have, in several instances, waived those rules for people with particularly bad stories who managed to somehow crack my landlord armor. In all but ONE case, those renters ended up stiffing me on rent, damaging the property, or vacating without notive. One started a fire that did over $30,000 in damage, and another STRIPPED the property of everything including the brand new cabinets in the kitchen. I only wish I was kidding.

So I tend to be an asshole about these sorts of things. Yeah, life sucks, but landlords have mortgages to pay too. In my case, I can't pay the mortgage if they aren't paying rent.

Charity, in this case, usually backfires.

[Kashka-Kat]

66. well, dunno if I'd call it being a-hole - its just refusing to be a door mat!!! question - does

the 250% income level refer to the tenants gross income or net, after taxes. I am in the process of writing up some screening policies.

[Xithras]

68. I do gross income.

Net income is too variable. Some people deliberately over-claim deductions to get a bigger refund every year, while others claim no deductions and are in financial trouble because of it. As a general rule of thumb I do like to make sure that they're bringing home twice the rent, but 250% of gross is my hard rule.

Some landlords are even stricter than that, but I've never had a problem at 250%

[Xithras]

57. dupe n/t

[Zywiec]

58. The sad thing is once you evict her, she'll find another landlord

to take her in and the cycle starts over.

I spoke with one landlord who says people go from one apartment or house to another until they are evicted. Then find another.

Did you check references on their last place of residence?

[IdaBriggs]

61. Job and personal references checked out; there was a sporadic

history w/rent, but it came with a reasonable explanation, and assurances that the problem was corrected. Since the REAL problem was that they are used to living that way, obviously it wasn't. As I said, she had been laid off, but was working two part time jobs at the time they rented. Within a few weeks, she was back to being unemployed. He had been at his job for several years, and I double checked that there were no attendance issues, but shortly thereafter he began having medical problems with his diabetes, and as I said, no work = no pay in a job with no short term disability benefits. (Something to check for in the future, in the doh! department.) Also, it never really occurred to me that if one partner ended up medically disabled, and the other person was able bodied, that they wouldn't move heaven and earth to make sure their family was taken care of -- this is just a value system that is different than mine, and I honestly did not/could not wrap my head around it. As I said, having your family put out on the street, versus buying a new car -- WTF??? I guess they plan on having everyone live in it? Or, more likely, they will have the state provide first month/security deposit on a new place, and then start the whole process over again -- with a new car.

For the record, if she had been working a minimum wage job at 40 hours per week, she could have made a serious dent in the weekly rent, and I probably would have been willing to work with her to make sure her other expenses (food and gas) were going to be covered by taking a lesser amount while things wound through the system. Instead, she stiffed me completely.

But she has a nice new car now, so whatever, right? :eyes:

[schmear happens]

Do you and your wife work outside of this? Because you mentioned that you need their income to pay

your mortgage...I would think that to rely on tenants to pay your mortgage would be pretty risky, given that you cannot control what they do.

I have had an eviction decision rendered against me. For months, my partner and I would leave not knowing if our stuff would be out on the lawn when we returned. However, we managed to save all the money not spent on rent and pay him back, along with court costs. Since even evicting a tenant can take months to actually physically remove them, I don't think it's worth the hassle.

[IdaBriggs]

62. I am the wife; I have twin almost two year olds, and returned to work

full time right before Christmas because of the bills -- a good portion of which were theirs. I had asked if she was interested in babysitting for me to earn money, and she turned the job down. It would have paid the rent, with some extra.

So, to review: she hasn't paid rent in eleven weeks, didn't want to help watch my toddlers so I could work to cover HER expenses, which I was going to PAY HER FOR, and now has a nice new car, while owing us over five thousand dollars, which she has made clear we aren't going to be seeing from her, possibly ever.

The rental property is the house I grew up in, and we took it over from my mother. The twists and turns of that transaction are such that we put ourselves in a negative cash flow situation in an effort to make sure my (widowed) mother was financially taken care of, but now that our situation has taken a turn for the worse, we are screwing HER over as well.

In a normal market, it wouldn't be 'put out more money than you take in' but the Michigan economy has literally turned housing values upside down, and right now, the money owed to the bank darn near makes the place 'top heavy' meaning the bank is owed more than the house is worth. We were advised by our tax accountant last year that if it wasn't a situation where we were taking care of family, he would be telling us to hand the property back to the bank, and walk away. That might be best for my husband and I, but it would literally financially destroy my mother, and make everyone else on the property homeless; hence our 'working for free' while we wait out the economy/wait for the world to get better. If it just pays for itself, we consider it a godsend, but my tenant has just made that dream completely impossible.

Got a few grand you want to chip in to cover her expenses? Sigh. Me either. But she has a nice new car -- woo hoo for her!

[schmear happens]

63. Ugh! I didn't know the half of it! That is outrageous!

Both of those points: she wouldn't babysit and they've got a new "ride." I don't have a car, no...LOL

No, you did more than enough and people like this give "bleeding hearts" (just joking) like you, a bad name!

See, I was gonna say that losing one's job can cause depression and have a reeling effect, but they really took advantage with the other points you made.

[schmear happens]

Do you and your wife work outside of this? Because you mentioned that you need their income to pay

your mortgage...I would think that to rely on tenants to pay your mortgage would be pretty risky, given that you cannot control what they do.

I have had an eviction decision rendered against me. For months, my partner and I would leave not knowing if our stuff would be out on the lawn when we returned. However, we managed to save all the money not spent on rent and pay him back, along with court costs. Since even evicting a tenant can take months to actually physically remove them, I don't think it's worth the hassle.

[schmear happens]

59. Do you and your wife work outside of this? Because you mentioned that you need their income to pay

your mortgage...I would think that to rely on tenants to pay your mortgage would be pretty risky, given that you cannot control what they do.

I have had an eviction decision rendered against me. For months, my partner and I would leave not knowing if our stuff would be out on the lawn when we returned. However, we managed to save all the money not spent on rent and pay him back, along with court costs. Since even evicting a tenant can take months to actually physically remove them, I don't think it's worth the hassle.

[jxnmsdemguy65]

60. Being a landlord...

is more trouble than its worth. Simple as that. Get out of it.

[IdaBriggs]

64. As I said, I was raised to believe it was an honorable thing to provide

good quality housing for people. We aren't slum lords; we take care of the property, and I am/was proud of that. We don't gouge people, and we don't take advantage. Most of the tenants have been with us for years, and literally are like family.

I don't think its being a landlord that got me into this mess -- I think it was not treating it like the business that it is, and making sure my family was protected. I let their problems become my problems; I should have promptly evicted them as soon as I knew that their character/personal integrity was questionable. There are always going to be people out there who try to take advantage of others, and I got taken. If we survive this, it will be a very valuable lesson.

At least that is what I keep telling myself. Sigh.

[Kashka-Kat]

67. What I have to remind myself of is that its entirely reasonable to expect to find a tenant who is

him or herself ALSO an honorable person. I've never ever stiffed a landlord, even at my most broke. Ya just scale back, get roommates, live in a cheap dumpy place or whatever. I'm sorry but I'd rather live in my car than live under that cloud of negativity, and in fact did live in a tent once for 4 months. Your home is supposed to be your home - a place of refuge. I'm convinced certain people just feed off of negativity and conflict, maybe its all they've ever known or something, I don't know. All I know is its best to steer WAAYYY clear of them.

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. It's also hard out there for a pimp

Just sayin'...

[aikoaiko]

69. I rent out my condo. Rental apps with $30 credit report fee plus fat deposit has worked for me.

Every rental situation is different, but you have to me smart about it.

[Vinca]

71. Can you get a short term note or a home equity loan to get you over the hump?

Talk to your bank. I'm sure they don't want to end up being the landlord. My husband and I used to own a house with an apartment over the garage. We had such bad luck with tenants we finally said to heck with it and turned it into an office. We were lucky because we weren't relying on the income to pay the mortgage.

[IdaBriggs]

72. LAST UPDATE ON THREAD: She intends to stay until (at least) the end of the month.

The court date is the 24th, and she will have 7 days afterwards, plus basically another three days while everything winds through the system. Her husband remains in the hospital, and things are looking grim for his recovery; his family will be taking care of his interests.

She keeps swearing he is leaving his family with nothing, and that is why she was 'forced' to spend the income tax refund on a 'dependable' car, since the other vehicle is in his name. His family is spitting mad about this, because in front of them and their minister, he told her she could keep the car since a) he's in the hospital and can't use it; b) he won't be able to drive for several months when/if he is released, due to the nature of the surgery; and c) even while he was planning on staying with a brother during his recovery, he wanted to make sure his kids had a place to live, hence him insisting the income tax refund be used to pay for housing.

Turns out, in one of those really 'it takes all kinds' ways, instead of being at the hospital while he was undergoing the second surgery (which they weren't sure he was going to live through) that was when she was out buying herself the new car. Then she left 'his' car at the dealership for him to deal with -- did I mention he was in the hospital undergoing surgery at the time, and is still there a week-and-a-half later due to infections?

She is delaying moving out for now because she doesn't have to move until after the court date. (That is a direct quote.) She has no ability to pay for anything, and is unwilling to move out sooner so we have a chance to get a paying tenant into the property, despite the fact she has an apartment lined up to move into, funded with first month and security deposit courtesy of our state government. She has still been unable to find a job, and, if she gets one, she assures me I will be on the list to pay back 'someday.' She is sorry I don't understand that 'she had no choice' because of her husband's willingness to 'abandon' his family. She is going to explain to her caseworker that now they have NO INCOME anymore, since he's going to leave them.

She is now THREE YEARS without a job. I reminded her I had offered her a job babysitting that would have covered her rent, plus gas back and forth; she brushed it off. I have also previously offered her work painting and cleaning, but somehow, she's always too busy to get together to discuss it. She spends a lot of time dealing with paperwork from different agencies, however; she is expecting to receive half of her husband's SSD when the 'back money' comes in, and was explaining to me how she 'earned it' because she took the paperwork back and forth from the hospital to the lawyer's office.

Listening to this narcissistic woman explaining how dire her situation is because of everyone else, I can only shake my head, and wonder how I fell for any of her crap in the first place. Then I remind myself that it was her husband who made the arrangements for the income tax payoff, and truly, I believe he was sincere.

I hope he recovers. Send good thoughts his way, please.

Oh, and her new car is gray.

:argh: :banghead: