Sympathy for Ted Haggard

[varkam]

Sexuality is a complicated thing.

I think that most of us who have thought about sexuality understand that. Most of us probably have aspects of our sexuality that we're a bit uneasy with - I think that's probably human. Ted Haggard is no different.

I feel bad for Ted Haggard because of a woman that I love. Almost two years ago now this woman and I got engaged. I have never been so close to anyone as I was to her. We shared some intense experiences, and like all good friends and lovers we leaned on one another to get through them. I don't know if, by ourselves, we would have made it through. We were going to get married now. We were going to have arguments over the dishes, watch movies on the couch, paint the house, and yell at the dog. We were going to hold hands and sleep together.

She wasn't a stranger to questions of sexuality. When she was a teenager, she had a homosexual relationship with another girl. Her mother found out, freaked out, and sent her off to one of those "re-education" camps...or whatever it is that they're called. You know, those places that claim to pray you straight. She came back convinced that she was straight, or that if she wasn't straight, she was bisexual. Some nine years later, she met me.

About a year before we got engaged, we both experienced a pretty traumatic event. For her, it was so bad that it caused her to lose her faith in God. I hated that for her, because although not a religious man myself, I knew that her faith was important to her. But we leaned. We held hands. We made it through the moments and the hours as they turned into days and weeks and months. We emerged on the other side of this storm, and we were still together.

But something had changed for her. She had always been attracted to women, but now things were different. She no longer felt that guilt, that shame, that self-hatred at exploring the very essence of her own identity. Of who she was. And so for months after we were engaged she thought and explored until, one day, she dropped a bomb-shell on my doorstep: she said that she was gay.

It may as well of been a real bomb, because I was destroyed. I desperately wanted her to be wrong. I begged and I pleaded. I prayed to a God I didn't even believe in. I'm ashamed to say I even got her to talk to a therapist about it, thinking that it was a phase. The therapist, though, said that she was, indeed, gay. I cried for what seemed like weeks. I hated her. I hated myself. I hated the world and everything in it. I just lost the love of my life.

Time heals all wounds, as they say, and so it did with mine. My pain and heart-break abated, and I was able to see the sunshine again. I realized that my trying to convince her that she was mistaken, that this was a phase, that she just needed to snap out of it...well that was wrong. This isn't something that you change. This isn't a phase for her, either - she's been wrestling with this thing all her life, and it has been because of religious shame and unsupportive people in her life that she continued to wrestle with it - until she decided that she could do it no longer. I realized that, if I loved her, then what I needed to do was support her - and support her I did. I realized that because I realized the horror that she went through all those years...

...and that's why I have sympathy for Ted Haggard. Not just Ted Haggard, but the tens of thousands of people just like him - stuck in a lifestyle that isn't who they are with people who like them for who they pretend to be. It's gut-wrenching to think that there are so many people out there who hate themselves, who regard themselves as failure, who think if they just had a little more willpower or faith that they could "overcome" this thing when it's not something to be overcome at all! The only things that need to be overcome are the hatred and bigotry of the many.

I can understand that religious guilt thing, because she explained it to me well. I can't help but think, though, that if your God condemns you to torture here on Earth or else torture in the hereafter for how he made you, then yours is a God that no moral soul would have anything to do with. Yours is a small God.

I can understand the fear of coming out, too. She lost some friends over it. I can't help but think, though, that if your friends and family would only love you for the charade, for who you pretend to be, then those people aren't worth the time you have given them. Small-mindedness and bigotry make poor companions though this life, as do people who subscribe to such doctrines.

It is my sincerest hope that Ted Haggard and all those like him are able to find some peace in this life, but I know many of them will carry to their graves their deepest secrets and fears never having known what being happy feels like. For that, my heart hurts.

And as for me and my ex? I lost my fiance, but I gained a best friend. It turns out we were soulmates - it's just we're taking a bit of a different path than we planned on, is all.

Thanks for reading.

[donheld]

1. I have NO sympathy for the Hypocrisy

That's where the issue is with Ted.

[Barack_America]

4. Yes. Sexuality is complicated, but hypocrisy is not. nt

[varkam]

6. I don't mean to say that people cannot be angry for his hypocrisy.

Hell, I'm angry with it, too. At the same time, though, I've got to believe that's just making them hate themselves that much more.

[aquamarina]

8. Precisely - the minute began to sit in judgment of others about

their sexuality he lost all right to not be judged about his own.

[roguevalley]

43. he's going to live his whole life messed up, finding any excuse to

deny himself. that has to be hell and only he can find his way out. I don't believe he will.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

25. Why not?

Sympathy is a complicated concept. I suppose everyone has sympathy for the invalid, poverty-stricken person living in an Indian slum. That sympathy is easy, and holds no moral dilemmas. Sympathy for someone like Haggard is far more difficult, mostly because he's an asshole. But in the end my sympathy, your sympathy, varkam's sympathy doesn't mean anything to the poor person in the slums of Mumbai... or Ted Haggard. Sympathy is a moral deal you make with yourself - an attempt to rationalize emotions, nothing more. All of the sympathy in the world won't buy you a cup of coffee unless it's backed up by actions.

[varkam]

28. Wow - awesome post.

:thumbsup:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. Thanks.

I didn't mean to diminish any of what you've said, and if that was what came across in my post then I apologise. I just felt it would be useful to say something about the actual utility of sympathy, seeing as some of the posts in this thread appear to support the concept of wielding sympathy as a battle-axe.

[varkam]

34. No, not at all.

I wish that I had said it myself.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

55. The hypocrisy stems from the fact that society doesn't allow him to be who he is.

[jhrobbins]

59. I think the hypocrisy stems from the fact that Ted has bought into the radical right's

agenda regarding this issue and his desperate desire to mainline himself into society at large - or at least the society that he has identified with. I live in the same overall society that Ted does and that society has not allowed or disallowed me to be who I am - I decided a long time ago who and what I was and then directed my life accordingly. Ted could have done so too, but he chose to lie to everyone, including himself.
As Shakespeare said, "This above all; to thine own self be true and it must follow, as night the day, thou canst not be false to any man".

[jschurchin]

2. K&R Varkam

And I couldn't agree more.

[Bluerthanblue]

3. wow.....

k&r

:hug:

[Lint Head]

5. Haggard is a born gay individual in denial.

He has been taught that it is evil and he can be converted. That is the big lie that is killing people. Isn't it ironic that some Christian beliefs can directly result in the deaths of people when the commandment says "Thou shalt not commit murder."
The Bible even says if you think of killing someone that you have committed murder in your heart.
The Bible also says that Jesus said, "Many will come in my name and many will be deceived."

I apologize for all the Bible quotes. Or course the language is nothing more than an interpretation of an interpretation

:dem:

[donheld]

16. He was born Gay, but he Chose to be a hypocrite

[Barack_America]

7. Thank you for sharing your story.

K&R.

:hug:

[MadMaddie]

9. I appreciate you sharing your experience with us

Ted Haggard just as many so called Christians have done something entirely different with their struggle than your beloved friend. Ted Haggard ridiculed and mocked gays while loathing his internal struggle. He stood in front of hundreds and sometimes thousands of people and riducled and mocked gays.

Every person has struggles in their lives, it's how they deal with and manage those struggles that make them worthy of sympathy.

Ted Haggard is responsible for his own actions.

[varkam]

14. It's not my intent to say that he's not responsible for his hypocrisy.

I was just meaning to focus on a different aspect of things is all.

[MadMaddie]

49. I understand

[sam sarrha]

10. he'll find no peace while trying to destroy other peoples lives, as a child i was tormented and

tortured by a Free Holiness Pentecostal cult church, being singled out and publicly humiliated and threatened.. tortured in the "Praying Thru" procedure is bad enough, but i am Autistic, as a child i had no idea what was happening or why they were trying to drive the demons out of me.. and why i was so bad for not rejecting them... i was beaten frequently by my Drunken father.. till one day he said he was getting hid razor strap /he was a barber/ and teach me lesson, i picked up a 3' long piece of pipe and told him i didn't think that was a good idea.. he never said another thing till i was 18, ad that was, "get out of my house".. my mother gave me $300 dollars in $1's and i was free..

the Evangelicals that lurk even here always whine and complain and act clueless when their best intension's are marred by unwelcome responses.. and i contribute whenever possible.. i have earned the right to tell them they are F'n delusional if they think their flavor of bullshit tastes better than all the other sacks of crap called religion. they need to just accept the fact there are those of us that are permanetelly damaged by their religion and we cant be "Hooked" and feel a deep need to warn others.. of the dangers we have seen in religion.. but if it makes you a better loving and compassionate person i'm glad for you.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. Oh, he will find no peace.

And it is for that reason alone that I feel sorry for him.

[jhrobbins]

60. Sounds like your mom was putting away a little money at a time, just for this situation.

[valerief]

11. He supports an institution which denies civil rights. Who cares if he's gay or not?

He's a thieving asshat.

[kirby]

12. Wow! Thanks for sharing your personal ordeal...

It sounds like a very painful experience.

[Lerkfish]

13. if he was only tormenting HIMSELF, I"d have sympathy

but the reality is that he is tormenting others and inciting disgust and hatred and intolerance against other human beings.
for that I have no sympathy, sorry.

[ljm2002]

15. Really nice story...

...and good of you to share it. It is very insightful, and I am glad that you and she are able to remain close.

And I did at one point have sympathy for that one aspect of Ted Haggard -- the fact that he never could own up to who he really is, largely because of his upbringing.

But. Any slight shred of sympathy I had for him, is far, far overshadowed by the wrong he has done. The thing that illustrates it for me, is that when the church that he founded was just starting out, he and his wife and their congregants literally harassed women out of town -- women who they accused of being witches. Hell, the women may have *been* witches -- i.e. Wiccans -- but this self-righteous little band of pricks and cunts just thought it would be a good idea to band together in front of other people's houses in Colorado Springs and hold "prayer meetings" where they tried to pray away the evil witches -- to the point where several of these women actually moved out of town because of the hateful environment that was created for them there.

As soon as I found that out about them, my sympathy dried up. Just went away. I have no sympathy for Mr. Haggard, nor his wife who bore him five children only to find out that he really prefers doing it with men and high on meth if possible, nor his children -- well, I'll withhold judgment on them because they did not choose their parents. But Ted Haggard chose his path and his wife chose to go along that path with him, and they didn't care what they did to others along the way.

Fuck them. I hope they continue to be subjected to the truth, which shows them up for the hypocritical assholes they truly are.

[Raster]

20. Why is it that most religions have to have someone or something to persecute and hate?

I am gay and raised mormon. Talk about hypocritical bullshit. I have no use for religious hypocritical assholes. None.

I have no sympathy for Haggard.

[bconngemini]

17. Sexuality is a complicated thing.

"Sexuality is a complicated thing."

wrong

[varkam]

23. ?

[a la izquierda]

26. Go piss on someone else's thread.

Your attitude isn't welcome on this one.

[LaurenG]

39. Never had any "sexuality" yet huh?

and yes it is complicated as are the relationships that sometimes go with it.

Best of luck, you're going to need it. :)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

52. Why do the trolls love to use GW avatars?

:shrug:

[jhrobbins]

61. Wow, insighful and penetrating response. You might not want to be so economical with words

about this issue though. Brevity, in this case, is a bowl of shit. (You probably won't get this)

[Political Tiger]

65. I think it's FEAR of sexuality

that makes sexuality complicated.

Most of us were raised and taught that heterosexuality is the only norm, end of discussion. Any feelings of anything other than heterosexuality were wrong.

My first childhood crush was on another little boy, when I was probably 7 or 8. At that point in my life, I didn't know it was a crush, but I knew this other little boy was all I could think about. I also knew I couldn't talk about my feelings to anybody.

As I got older, I had many more crushes on other boys, but still I knew I couldn't talk about these feelings I had to anybody, because it was "wrong," it was "perverted" and it was a "sin."

I went into deep denial about my feelings and convinced myself that it was just a phase I was going through and that one day I would snap out of it. Of course I was only fooling myself.

Finally, through some counseling, I learned to accept the fact that I was gay, and I was able to let go of the fear of my sexuality. Only then was I free.

Ted Haggard and others like him will never be free until they get over the fear of their sexuality.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for Ted Haggard because of his hypocrisy, although on one level I understand it. However, it's people like Ted Haggard, who not only fear their own sexuality, but use that fear to condemn others, that hurt so many people, especially young people who are dealing with their fear of their sexuality.

[Mz Pip]

18. It's one thing to privately

engage in a personal struggle that only impacts the lives of those you are close to. What you and your fiancee went through was a personal and private matter.

She did not try to use the church, the community, and a public political agenda to work through her issues. There in lies the difference.

Yes, sexuality is complicated and for some it is more complicated that it is for others.

The only thing I feel sorry for as far as Ted Haggard goes is that he spent so much time and effort creating an illusion that included the demonization of people who are like him. He could have saved himself and many many more people a whole lot of grief if he didn't include them in his personal crusade against his own nature.

Ted's denial wasn't private. It was public and affected far too many people for me to give him much of a pass.

[closeupready]

19. If Haggard had publicly come out, embraced his homosexuality openly, and said he was sorry for what

he'd preached and done, then I would be able to sympathize.

He has not done that. He wants the best of both worlds, IMO. So no, I have no sympathy for him.

Obviously, I do not enjoy the thought that he is in psychological pain - I never enjoy that - but that pain is self-imposed, so whether he's someone in news stories halfway across the continent or my next door neighbor, there is nothing I could say or do to lessen his pain, so making the effort to put myself in his situation, etc., serves little to no purpose, in my opinion.

[Lil Missy]

21. Nope. No sympathy from this gay woman. For a queer who make a living off condemning gays.

[hunter]

22. I survived a similar train wreck. I can feel some sympathy for Haggard too.

But I avoid my ex and she avoids me. There's really nothing more we can say to one another. She used me to prove to herself and her family she wasn't gay. She was wrong.

I can forgive, but I can't forget. We crossed paths a few years ago and we pretended not to recognize one another. It was the very best we could do. The scars still bleed whenever we scratch them.

She married her true love, a woman who very nearly succeeded committing suicide in my apartment while I was utterly alone and terrified, and I know they've made a life together that works, but I can't forget the white hot pain in my heart. All I can do is place the blame on my society and my religion that could not, would not accept homosexuality.

I know Haggard lives in his own private hell, and I know how awful it must be, but he's inflicted that hell upon others and that's a terrible, terrible thing.

:cry:

I fly my rainbow flag in hopes of a better future.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

24. Thank you for sharing your story.

Being supportive of someone who has broken your heart is probably the hardest thing in the world, but you did it, and for that you should be proud. I have always lived my life trying to be basically decent, generous, and supportive of my friends, relatives, and lovers regardless of the circumstances. I don't believe in God, but I do believe in karma and I expect you've got some seriously good karma coming your way.

[a la izquierda]

27. I'm happy you shared this.

And I'm happy for you that you and your ex had a love strong enough to overcome this: while it may not be what you once hoped, it sounds like a very strong bond that many, many people should hope for.
:hug:

[BR_Parkway]

29. Thank you for your story - but there is one huge glaring difference

between your fiance/soulmate and the Rev Ted Haggard. Your fiance was the one that was inflicted upon that she she couldn't live her life according to the sexuality that was hers - the church/family/whoever didn't approve.

Ted Haggard had the same thing - but chose to become a part of that system of forcing others to repress their sexuality (which is bad enough) while continuing to partake of it on his own (the hypocrisy).

Your fiance came out of a bad situation with a better appreciation for who she was - Ted became the bad situation and ruined countless lives because of it (I wonder how many funerals his church has performed for people, especially teens who committed suicide)

[varkam]

30. I'm not saying that there isn't a difference...

and I'm not saying that Haggard and those like him, who have chosen not only to live in that denial but to cause suffering to others through their actions. I'm not saying that all is forgiven, but I think you can have sympathy for people while recognizing that some of the things that they do are unequivocally wrong. Like another poster wrote upthread, sympathy is a complicated concept. I'm not saying that people cannot be angry at the likes of Haggard for the things that he has done, but what I am saying is that things are not so black and white as would perhaps comfort us the most.

Just my .02.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. What is the point of sympathy if you can't have sympathy for a hypocrite?

To make a judgement such as you have made, to draw a line between those worthy or not worthy of your sympathy is inherently wrong for exactly the same reasons that Haggard's rantings are wrong. I have no use for Christianity in general, but the concept of "love the sinner, hate the sin" does not seem like such a bad idea in these dark times.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. Show me your verse and chapter for that 'Biblical' quote

'love the sinner' is made up preacher talk, not 'christianity'.

Sympathy and forgiveness occur within. I can forgive and feel understanding for the likes of Haggard, while also calling him out for his attacks upon my family and indeed upon himself. I have no need to telegraph to him or to others my inner forgivness, that is for me. For Ted, I will contantly call him out for his hatred. He hates himself. To rationalize his self loathing for him is to harm him, not help him. Anyone claiming to feel for him who is not calling him out for harming himself does not feel sympathy, does not understand. It is not as easy as you'd like it to be.
And you do know that the fake Biblical quote you use is used by the likes of Ted to oppress gay folks each and everyday, don't you? A fake quote. Not the Bible. A saying used to rationalize hatred toward others is what that extemely unchrist like quote really is. I'm sure you intentions were better than that, but the phrase is loaded, in case you don't know, and also- it is not Scripture, but made up religious blather that excuses hate.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

38. I agree with most of what you've said.

However, I am not interested in the provenance of the quote, "love the sinner, hate the sin." I'm furthermore not interested in how it has been abused by bigots like Haggard. That is their concern, not mine. If you consider that particular phrase to be loaded, then I apologise for using it. It wasn't my intention to use hurtful words, and I certainly don't view that phrase as a licence to be a bigot.

[jhrobbins]

63. I don't think that you said, anywhere in your post, that what you were saying was,

in fact, a Biblical quote - you said it was a Christian concept, and I think this is true, in a weird way. I understand the genesis of the concept, and in theory, it seems fairly innocuous, but it has been, as so many things in Christianity, perverted.

[noiretextatique]

41. this man actively worked against other gay people

while sleeping with men himself. he doesn't deserve my sympathy.

[olegramps]

35. Ted Haggard has extremely beneficial.

Ted Haggard is the best thing that could have ever happened in exposing the dangerous side of in tolerate religious teachings. He is a prime example of just how twisted a person can become when they have been indoctrinated as children in one of these radical Pentecostal or evangelical churches. I would also extent this to large segment of the Catholic Church who believe that homosexual actions are sinful.

Those who preach that homosexuals are evil sinners and they are condemned to hell are fully responsible for death of every young person who has been driven to commit suicide. Their blood that is on the hands of every one who sows hatred of these innocent victims.

Where do we see a greater acceptance of those who are homosexual than among the youth of our nation. It certainly isn't to be found in the majority of churches. The majority of younger people, even those who are being dragged to some nitwit Pentecostal church, see through the hypocrisy of preaching hatred in the name of Jesus. I find His silence on the subject very informative, in that homosexual practices were very prevalent during this period of history.

Thanks, Ted. You have provide your fellow mankind a great service in exposing the danger of radical religious teachings. If the government was being responsible it would demand that, like tobacco and alcohol products, that religions should be made to post a warning that their teachings could be damaging to your health.

[arikara]

37. You showed great compassion for your friend

in spite of your broken heart. Its wonderful that the two of you managed to work through the pain and confusion to stay together. I can totally understand your empathy with Ted Haggard and I hope more begin to act like you, the world will soon become a better happier place.

:hug:

[noiretextatique]

40. i have zero sympathy for haggard

or other self-hating closeted gay people who actively work to hurt other gay people, as haggard did.

it's one thing to be confused about your sexuality...i completely understand that. it's quite another to be a hypocrite who preaches hatred of gays in public while sleeping with men in private.

[TWiley]

42. I have no sympathy for him. He would send you to Hell in a heartbeat.

He is the poster child for everything that is wrong with Christianity.

[sarcasmo]

44. Like the first post, No sympathy for HYPOCRISY.

If he wants to come clean and admit he is Gay, then he may get the sympathy you are seeking.

[lala_rawraw]

45. no, i don't agree..

i have plenty of gay friends who have struggled with their sexuality and coming out of the closet or staying in the closet, etc. but NONE of them call for hate crimes against people like themselves and NONE of them help push discriminatory laws against people like themselves. sorry, when you cause others to suffer through your own actions and on purpose you lose the right to have a pity party.

i understand where you are coming from and appreciate your column, but with respect I must disagree.

[ellacott]

46. I have a question

I was left more confused by his explanation on Oprah. What if he truly did love his wife and loves sex with her? Was he in denial about being a homosexual or heterosexual? I was left thinking he was bisexual.

I don't mean to be offensive to anyone. These were just things I was wondering while listening to him.

[varkam]

50. He could be bi-sexual.

Though it would seem to me that if he had so very much to lose by engaging in extra-marital affairs with other men, then it might be a bit more complicated than that.

[Deja Q]

57. Especially if he is bisexual; he still chose a monogamous relationship bound by marriage.

To cheat on her was grossly disrespectful on his part. He disrespected her. He disrespected himself. When you're in a relationship, you do not cheat on your partner behind your partner's back. It's disrespectful, outright rude, and potentially dangerous - the type of person one is cheating on may be some form of unknown character, and may have a gaggle of STDs as well. Sexuality is nothing to take lightly.

He can do it with toasters for all I'd care. Just be upfront with anyone and if they don't bugger off you've got a chance at something real.

Which is a cliche; it sounds like he told her he had same-sex feelings and opted to ultimately indulge them. Which has no validity in my book; plenty of heterosexuals willfully ignore the same marriage rites. Ted is no different as far as I'm concerned.

Cheaters be damned. Just leave the good people out of it.

[ellacott]

67. Thank you for that

This is where I'm confused. There is no justification for cheating on her.

[JerseygirlCT]

47. You're a good a guy, Varkham.

But for me the difference is that Haggard, while struggling himself, probably caused even more pain for those around him with his hate. I understand it was really self-hate turned outward, but I'm terribly sorry for all the pain he tossed out there.

I do understand what you're saying, though, and I'm sure he's going through a particularly hellish time now. I do hope he comes through it with a new understanding of the world, it's varied people, and of God - who is never about hate and loves us all in all of our differences and diversity.

[varkam]

51. I know that he's done some pretty bad stuff.

And it's not my intent to deny people their anger towards him for that. Hell, I'm angry with him for that, too. I guess I think that you can be angry with someone and have some sympathy for them at the same time.

And no, I'm not a good guy. I'm just a fellow that does good things sometimes and bad things other times - hopefully the good stuff will win out in the end.

[JerseygirlCT]

53. Well, yes. Absolutely

You can both reject someone's behavior and have some sympathy for them.

And I think given the limitations we human beings must live with - perfection being unattainable - you still come across as a good guy. So there.

[UTUSN]

64. This specific post of yours makes me think you are "playing"

It's like, "Yeah-yeah, he's done some PRETTY DAMN STUFF" -----------BUT-------------


This JERK is out there with VIDEO -----------POSING----- like a GOD -----------ACTING real DRAMATIC!!!!!!!!!!!111



As for your last paragraph in your post here (that I'm replying to) ------uh, Get some PRINCIPLES somewhere, get some BELIEFS, get some FUCKING CONVICTION somewhere!1

[varkam]

66. What the hell is your problem?

I have my beliefs and convictions - sorry if they aren't good enough for you.

[Eryemil]

48. The bastard and those like him can die for all I care

Not one ounce of sympathy from me. It is because of self-loathing worms like Haggard and those married politicians getting blow jobs in restrooms that so many gay teenagers kill themselves, it is because of them my people continue to suffer. So much blood is on their hands.

I wouldn't piss on any of them if they were on fire.

[cynatnite]

54. I have sympathy for his family...

The man knows he's gay and everyone knows he's gay. He's just putting his family through hell because he refuses to acknowledge what everyone else knows.

[MrScorpio]

56. The difference between you and these so-called Christians is that you have genuine compassion

It's something that most people in this world need to have

[Behind the Aegis]

58. No sympathy for him...NONE!

For his family? Yes.

[UTUSN]

62. O.K., I've gone this thread withOUT replying, but, sorry, NOooooooooo!1

Your (O.P.) "fiance" was discovering herself sincerely. These a-hole double-dealers are LYING. They KNOW what they are doing AND they are covering for themselves for THEIR OWN self-interest. That is all.

[phleshdef]

68. Yea, I have sympathy for anyone as confused and messed up in the head as Haggard is.

Some others around here are all on their high horse shouting "hypocrite" and all that. They are just as judgemental, unforgiving, uncompassionate and narrow minded as the people they are claiming to rail against.

I guess its just the liberal in me that wants to reach out and see the root causes that create a person like Haggard. And when I do, it certainly saddens me. He and his family are still obviously brainwashed by their version of Christianity and its a very difficult thing to break out of.

[olegramps]

69. Having come of age in the 50's

I have seen attitudes regarding homosexuals and African-Americans change dramatically. I have seen discussions about human sexuality go from absolutely no discussion to detailed discussions on radio, TV and the print media that would have horrified my parents.

The change has been dramatic for the majority of Americans who grew up in the Ozzie and Harriet culture of the 50's. What I have found puzzling is that it seems that it is the females in our society are that are far more comfortable in bringing the subject of sexuality out of the closet. What I am referring to is the entire range of human sexual behavior. Yes, Kinsey was perhaps the catalyst who did much to open up the entire discussion that was mired in Victorian prudence, but I believe that it was the women that were the first to emerge from the darkness in which the entire subject was submerged. It only seems to me that it is the radical religious nut-cases that what to once again submerge the entire subject into the depths of ignorance.

My wife and I watched the movie "Prayers' for Bobby" and we could deeply saddened by fact that he was the victim of the radical religious teachings. The very teachings that are spewed by the likes of Ted Haggard and his ilk. His blood is on the hands of his mother and those who vilified homosexuals as condemned sinners. It took the death of her son to bring her to realization of her error. I can't dismiss her culpability since she had the opportunity to examine the subject. Her only concern was if Bobby had gone to heaven or eternal damnation in hell.

When I see the tragic results of such ignorance then I have no sympathy for Haggard or the bastards that spew this crap. I saw that bastard on "Jesus Camp" and he struck me as being a slim bag. Just how long will it take people to come to their senses and realize that far too many of these people who are so damn vocal in the condemnation of homosexuals are only covering up their own actual involvement or some suppressed desires that they are unable to deal with. Its like Shakespeare said to the effect that they protest too loudly in their condemnation.