An AWESOME Response To A Conservative Mass Email(!)

[ihavenobias]

The first email you'll see is the conservative email template (Quick FYI, , more details as I know them). I'll clearly mark where his response email (same format) begins. Enjoy!

The Conservative email:

To All My Valued Employees.

There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your jobs. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country.

However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests.

First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is a back story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. You've seen my big home at last years Christmas party. I'm sure; all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.

However, what you don't see is the back story.

I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I lived in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.
My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I saved went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.

Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the Goodwill store extracting any clothing item that didn't look like it was birthed in the 50's. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.

So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour. Every day this business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacations... You never realize the back story and the sacrifices I've made.

Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didn't. The people who overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for.

Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds.

Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why:

I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay enough. I have state taxes, Federal taxes, Property taxes, Sales and use taxes, Payroll taxes, Workers compensation taxes, Unemployment taxes, Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time.

On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for $288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my "stimulus" check was? Zero. Nada. Zilch.

The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country. </SPAN>

The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? That's nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.

Here is what many of you don't understand ... to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, h ired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.

When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it.

Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.

So where am I going with all this?

It's quite simple.

If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I fire you. I fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem any more.

Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.

If you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about....

Signed,

Your boss


The Progressive Response To The Conservative Email:

To All My Valued Employers.

Thank you for your words explaining your life story and how you got where you are today. Yes, we have been "rumbling" about the future of this company because we are paid at existence level wages and if the company goes under, we will all be up the creek - but we will take comfort in knowing that you took the paddle with you. At least we'll know it's safe.

You'll be pleased to know that your Toyota Corolla is still serving even though you dumped it for the new Mercedes you get every year - you see, I drive it here to work every day. It's all I can afford, but it gets me here and back so that I may make the products you sell which enable your nice house and new car. Oh, and the transmission is still defective. Wish I could afford to get it fixed; it's a good, dependable car and with what YOU pay, I can't afford a newer one.

We appreciate that you acknowledge our sacrifices in life so that you might live more prosperously, even though you appear to have nothing but contempt for your employees with your implication that we don't actually do any work, all we do is show up and expect a paycheck. Yet, there is still product flowing out the door. Thank goodness for Magical Elves doing all the work, huh?

So, 28 years ago your friends were making a "modest" $50k per year at only 40 hours per week...are there any of those jobs still available? We ask because it would be a step up from the job we have with you that pays $28k for 40 hours. (And that's in TODAY'S economy.) Oh, and we stay at home weekends a lot, too. We would date more, but for some reason, the people we date don't appreciate a Big Mac dining experience the way folks used to.

Now the economy is falling apart and you are asking the people who keep income flowing your way to sacrifice so you can still get your new car next year.

As you say, you have, "state taxes, Federal taxes, Property taxes, Sales and use taxes, Payroll taxes, Workers compensation taxes, Unemployment taxes, Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him." Oddly, all of those items help your bottom line because you deduct them from YOUR taxes and take your depreciation allowance, interest deductions, and all those other expenses of running your business. I used to be able to deduct my mortgage interest, but since the interest rates rose faster than my pay, the foreclosure ended that. My landlord still gets HIS deduction, though, thank goodness!

You may want to check to see if your accountant is stealing from you because it's impossible for 14 of us to rack up $21,000 EACH in tax requirements during the last quarter. For someone who seems obsessed with their business, you are fairly oblivious to what's going on with your finances. Of the $288,000 you say you deposited, how much of it will you be getting back when you file you taxes and deduct every penny of it?

That single mother pregnant with her fourth child waiting for a welfare check? Well, she used to work here, but was fired when her babysitter got sick and your reaction was that it wasn't your problem. She's been trying ever since to get a job but when people see she was fired, they assume it was due to nefarious reasons. And thanks to the welfare reforms passed over a decade ago, she has a limited time to collect those safety net checks before she is cut loose to swim on her own or drown.

What color Mercedes are you going with this year, by the way?

Why was it when George Bush gave you the tax cuts you desired, instead of raising our wages or hiring new employees, you put that money in your pocket? Incredibly stimulating, wasn't it? What in the world would lead us to think that you would do anything differently if you receive another round of tax cuts? Would you start offering affordable health care? Didn't think so.

If you don't think the "poor" run our economic engine, try running a business WITHOUT them. Who do you think you are selling your product to? Who does the work which enables you to live the lifestyle you've become accustomed to? Yet you disrespect our contributions and accuse us of defrauding you because we have the nerve to want to be paid for our efforts. (You know, we are called THE WORKING CLASS for a REASON).

So, if you only make 3/4 of a million dollars instead of the full million, your motivation to work and to provide jobs will disappear and you will run off to another country, huh? And you expect us to blame the GOVERNMENT?

What a whiny, snivelling, greedy, inconsiderate coward you are! You make it clear that you DON'T give a damn about your employees and their worries were NEVER yours, yet you don't mind exploiting us for every penny you can gather.

So, close your company, move to another country, and retire. Spend the riches we have helped you to accumulate. Turn your back on your country - we'll be better off without you. We're at a time when everyone needs to pitch in together to fix the problems the "Free Market" has caused and if you would rather cry in your Dom about how abused YOU are because you can only have steak four times a week instead of five, don't let America's door hit you in the ass on your way out...

Putz.

Signed,

The hard working employees who keep your company going

[BrklynLiberal]

1. [STANDING OVATION]

[Blue Dog Dominion]

33. Have any of you ever had to worry about making a payroll?

Knowing that your employees and their family is couting on that paycheck to put food on the table will cause you many a sleepless night when times are tough. For most its agonizing to have to let someone go because you can't afford to pay them.

While both letters are full of hyperbole, most business owners CARE about their employees. Especially small buisness.

You know, it doesn't hurt for employees to know what sort of expenses it costs to run a business. One of the biggest con jobs our government ever did was to impose a "hidden" tax on workers via payroll taxes. I'd love it for an employee to see all the taxes and fees (lets not even count benefits) that are being paid to government(s) on their behalf. The pitchforks would come out!

[ogneopasno]

36. Oh, what a wonderful company that would be, one that kept the books open for any employee who wanted

to take a look! They're few and far between, of course.

[rfranklin]

42. This email is propaganda written by one of the "think tank"

employees who are paid to generate this crap, enabling the ultra rich (who look down on him as useful tool) to squirrel their tax cut bonanzas in hedge funds which produce nothing of value.

The tax cuts ballyhooed by the Republican tools have produced no jobs of consequence. In fact, it can be argued that they have actually destroyed hundreds of thousands of jobs by generating a bubble of greedy speculation and the resulting financial panic.

[Enthusiast]

107. Yes, you are correct.

The same think tank probably provides talking points for the piggish Rush Limbaugh.

[The Wielding Truth]

127. Yea, my take,too. The greedies are playing us again.

[sendero]

189. Of course it is...

.. as is the response. It's time to counter this Heritage Foundation, American Enterprise Institute, CATO Institute

BULLSHIT

[nosillies]

40. Agreed. Both letter writers make good points, and both are full of self-righteous bullshit.

As the child of a small business owner who was once dirt poor and is now very well-off, I will never understand why some here think rich=evil.

Things I learned from my evil, rich, Mercedes-driving Dad:

When times are tight for your business, you must always pay your employees before you pay yourself.

If you want people to come to work, treat them well and pay them well.

Pay for as much of your employees' health care costs as you can.

If keeping your business afloat means you work from 6 AM to 1 AM each day, then by God, you do it, because people are depending on you.

If an employee is struggling, give them a cash advance. If you can, give them a raise.

If an employee calls you from jail in the middle of the night, go bail them out. (I never quite got that one, but I think that if a road crew was short, it could cause issues. And as I recall, his employees used to get arrested en masse on Thursday nights.)

I could go on. But of course, to many here on DU, none of these lessons matter, because my p-o-s dad has a big house and nice cars.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

45. I know

Having been in your Dad's position, I know exactly what you're saying, and, yes, sadly, too many minds are closed to the reality of how the business world works for some folks.

I thought both those emails made sense, and I also thought they were both idiotic.

Interesting, though, that TYT has had its youtube account suspended. I wonder why.

Anyway, here's to you, nosillies - :toast:

You're not alone.

[BreweryYardRat]

56. See, rich doesn't automatically equal evil/uncaring/etc...

Your example proves that. But most company CEOs/CFOs/boards of directors, especially in the really big companies, don't demonstrate that kind of care for the workers. All they care about is lining their own pockets, and they don't care who they have to screw over to do so.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

63. One of the great misconceptions, all Republicans are rich, all Democrats are poor.

[Enthusiast]

108. I have no such misconception. nt

[October]

64. Yeah, that last line of yours wasn't self-righteous at all. /nt

[nosillies]

182. You're right, it wasn't. It was factual.

There are many people on DU who hate others simply because they are wealthy. If you don't believe that, you've missed some seriously hate-filled threads.

There was absolutely no sarcasm or snark in my last line. Unlike yours.

[Confusious]

67. As someone that has worked for the types of people in the letter

If your dad is like that, he is few and far inbetween. My bosses have always been greedy fucks, who gave a shit about their employees only as long as it didn't impact their wallet. Screaming at how worthless they are is a good motivator. etc, etc, etc.

[Lucky Luciano]

69. I am with you on this one.

As another poster mentioned above, both letters have some points and both are loaded with ridiculous hyperbole....and it is definitely true that someone who busts their ass because they watn to be wealthy has earned every damn fucking penny of it.

[Plucketeer]

80. Congratulations on lucking into a great dad.

Your Pop's proof that only 98% of corporate wigs are self-serving and greedy!

[Wetzelbill]

89. It has nothing to do with a big house and nice cars

It's how a certain segment of them exploit the system and treat others. It's not wealth itself, it's outright greed that does damage to our country. Your dad doesn't fall into that last one. Guys like John Thain asking for a bonus and a handout and complaining along the lines of that first letter while he's spending over a million dollars to redocorate his office is indicative of that mentality. The points that you make have nothing to do with what we're dealing with in these guys. If more owners were like that it'd be different.

[eridani]

105. Your dad and Henry Ford are, unfortunately, not typical

Ford was sued by his stockholders for paying his employees "too much" and lost, despite his protests that his business would suffer in the long run if he didn't pay his employees enough to buy his cars.

Business owners who get this and try to act on it are hurt as much as workers by the race to the bottom, which only parasitical financial types win.

[wolfgangmo]

111. I could be wrong but...

.. I think that most here on DU realize that there is a big difference between small business owners like me and your dad and corporations.

Corporations are the biggest welfare queens this country has ever seen. Most know that small companies are the backbone of our country. One of the reason that I so strongly support universal health care is that it would also allow me to get more and better trained employees because they would not worry about their families health care .

I would like to meet your dad some day, but for right now I am living in a small crappy 100 year old house with some serious issues and I don't have time to fix any of them. I have deadlines to meet and employees to get paid.

FYI - I love the people who work for me. They are great.

[Pacifist Patriot]

119. I am not so sure.

I didn't have the patience to wade through the first letter, but the response from the worker sounded like it was directed to more along the lines of a successful family-owned business rather than a corporation. I am on the fence since my experience with successful family businesses includes both the asshole in the conservative letter and the wonderful man described above. I suspect they both exist in equal measure. I too have detected disdain and/or distrust for successful small businesses among liberals and have found it highly surprising.

[ejpoeta]

114. i think you are misunderstanding the OP's response.

Rich is not evil. the owner is blaming the employees for his woes. and as if they ask too much by expecting to get paid a decent wage. Not all employers are like this, but I contend a lot of them are. especially the big ones. my husband's ceo of where he works said in reply to someone suggesting he is inviting a union in by how he was treating his employees... they work for ME. as if he can do whatever he wants and screw the employees. they go bust their asses to do the work. they go out and work long hours and deal with the customers. they get you the great accolades from the customers at how great your company is. and then they don't get a raise. or a bonus. but the healthcare goes up, so now we have a high deductible insurance which means I'm never going to the doctor again. and our kids had to go sign up for child health plus so at least they have decent insurance.

My husband likes his job. He enjoys going out and fixing things. He likes his boss, the regional manager. He doesn't go to an office everyday. He works out of our home for the company, and he has always done better in that type of job. He has gone above and beyond as have his co-workers in this area. they've had to pick up that worker's slack that doug hired that wouldn't do his work, or did a crap job and they had to fix it. on top of their own work! what do they get for that.... no raise. no bonus. and that alone is not what would make them mad. it's that AND seeing the higher ups get raises and bonuses.

Sure, times may be tough. but what should a person think when they see no raise and no bonus for themselves, but the CEO gets a big fat bonus. They cut back on workers, demand more of the ones still there, and say, don't get overtime. you have more work expected of you, we demand you get x numbers done, but NO overtime!! and no raise. no bonus. and why? because 'they work for ME!!' they've as much said to the guys that there are lines of people waiting to take their job. there's a morale booster.

Yes, they are employees. and yes, the owner, CEO does do a lot to keep things running. but to treat your employees as if they are just a drag on your bottom line, or your checkbook, is not helpful to anyone. The employees, the ones that do the work that gets you that bonus or the profits.... they are an important part of the company. without them where would you be!!! If you treated them better.... treated them as valuable employees instead of some drag on your wallet, then you would get even more! because they are the ones doing the grunt work. people like my husband thrive on that accomplishment. and they thrive on being rewarded. not just by money... but by being treated with respect and as if they are an important part of the team. Hey, you're doing a great job goes a long way with my husband.

Bob took a paycut to go to his current job. It wasn't about the money. It was about respect. It was about opportunity for advancement. It was about having his ideas taken seriously. That's what it was about. The money is important. We all need to live. But while some are just there for a paycheck, many would thrive with mere respect. By not saying we can't give bonuses or raises because times are tough, but then give the big whigs big bonuses and raises. That is not respect.

[gaspee]

50. Oh please

Cry me a river.

[TahitiNut]

55. Business income taxes are paid on PROFITS ... that's AFTER deducting the expense of a payroll.

If that "businessman" is paying over a quarter of a million dollars in his quarterly estimated filing, then he's seeing about FOUR MILLION DOLLARS of annual PROFITS. Again, that's AFTER DEDUCTING the expenses of employee compensation! So, here's the newsflash - no "businessman" ever paid more income taxes because he hired people ... UNLESS they brought in so much in PROFITS that he wallowed in the wealth they created.

It's FUCKING asinine to claim that an increased tax rate on PROFITS would somehow cause a businessman to fire employees. By reducing the number of employees (and the deductible payroll expense) the "businessman" is, in the short run, increasing PROFITS (and the corresponding tax on those profits). In the longer term, he's cutting his revenues (attributable to the labor of his employees) as well as his expenses. That's just fucking STUPID.

[Blue Dog Dominion]

66. Open up a lemonaide stand and see how long you stay in business n/t

[TahitiNut]

71. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

Tell me, if you had a business with a net income of $189,363 per employee (that's after deducting expenses such as employee compensation -- and after income taxes, too) in an industry where the average net income per employee was $90,178, do you think you'd be firing a few thousand of those employees?? Why?

Let's further stipulate that the business has a pre-tax profit margin of 36%.

So, tell me about how you're losing sleep over firing those employees. Hmmm??

Next, try to tell me how federal income taxes on those profits causes you to fire employees.

I'll wait. :eyes: :eyes:

[Blue Dog Dominion]

75. Thats ridiculous logic

If you fired the people that are doing the work, how do you expect to make any income? Hell, if those numbers that were pulled out of the ether were true I'd HIRE more employees and increase my margin.

If those employees weren't contributing to the business then keeping them on isn't fair to the other employees who ARE contributing to profitablity and could be getting raises, bonuses and better benefits.

[TahitiNut]

84. Well ... it describes Microsoft ... and the numbers were not "pulled out of the ether."

:shrug:

[Blue Dog Dominion]

95. What he said vvvv

[aintitfunny]

123. Exactly Right.

If the quarterly tax numbers are accurate, which of course they are not, then this guy is raking it in.

[Wetzelbill]

90. wow you are catastrophically ignorant nt

[Raineyb]

169. Ignorantly spoken like a true neo-feudalist

Every employee hired is a tax write off as taxes are only paid on profits. What part of the post did you have trouble comprehending?

Regards

[justaregularperson]

97. Word!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

160. Yes, that's what most people don't know unless they've actually run a business

I was surprised and delighted at all the things I could deduct when I went free-lance, things I never could deduct before, as long as they were a cost of doing business, like the cost of any software that is used for my work or my office supplies.

[MadMaddie]

59. This is true...

But many of these employers are also against Universal Healthcare or any other government programs that can help families.

It makes no sense to me because that would seem to benefit the employer:
-Employeer would not be paying healthcare
-If all employees have decent healthcare they would not have as many missed days.
-If employees have children they could have their children in a safe daycare.

It seems to me that a physically and mentally healthy employee means more productivity for the company.

[wolfgangmo]

112. Most small and mid size business owners that I know...

... who don't have their heads shoved up Rush Limpballs nether regions understand the advantages inherent in universal health care.

Those that don't seem to be closing their doors.

[valerief]

153. Well, it might harm the employers' own personal investments to

cut out the Med Insurance middlemen or to see revenue cuts in Big Pharma.

[zipplewrath]

60. My sister does

She does the books for a very successful, very wealthy man. He isn't like this fictitious letter writer, but it is true that he demands amazingly steep profits. He gets them because he's good, so more power to him. But he constantly claims he is some how "taking it the rear" when the profits fall a couple percentage points below some ideal of his (which is well into double digits). Warren Buffet comments all the time on the obscene profit expectations many folks in his income bracket have.

[Common Sense Party]

100. Often, this is because of unrealistic shareholder demands

and expectations. Shareholders want big, juicy profits and they encourage management to take bigger risks or cut costs (which often means wages) in order to maximize shareholder revenue. It's stupid and shortsighted, but in a world where shareholders can pick up their capital and move on, management does stupid things to keep the temporary "owners" happy.

Granted, this is just with publicly traded companies, but it happens.

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. The first letter does more to reinforce the stereotype of the self-absorbed small businessman...

...than all the bolshevik books ever printed.

Yesterday, I went to the funeral of my former boss. He and his dad started their welding shop with jack shit, and eventually built it into a $25m a year business. He was plain spoken and generally generous. He could also be defensive and nurturing of a grudge.

His kids, on the other hand are slackers with a huge sense of entitlement. No one likes working for them, and they've made it clear that the non-family employees are menials, who are told, every single day, what the employee is costing them.

I think that most small business owners do care about their employees, but that is not usually made apparent. The ones that engender loyalty are those who open up their books, collaborate, communicate and engage their employees in the success of the business.

The first email was, in all likelihood, not written by anyone who has ever had to worry about making a payroll either.

No matter how stressful it is to worry about paying someone else, it's more stressful to worry that you won't get paid and your kids won't eat. We all need an improved perspective.

[SteelPenguin]

83. I've had both perspectives

Both are stressful, but it's worse when you own the company because you not only have to worry about your own family, but you worry about others as well. At least in my experieince.

[WCGreen]

104. You know the employee "taxes" you speak of are there really to protect the

employer. The FICA matching tax has been there for over 75 years so that's not much of a surprise. Unemployment taxes are there to protect the worker in all sorts of situations including the seasonal workers who are let go and rehired every year. This allows all those companies that are seasonal to keep their trained employees coming back which allows them to save money on training new workers over and over again. Workers Compensation is cheap insurance so that the company does not get sued every time a worker is injured while on the job.

That's it. Those are the taxes that a company has to pay in order to have workers. Those taxes vary little by little each and every year. You know why I know all of this? Because I am a tax accountant and have been at it for 25 years now.

Oh and that hidden payroll tax you are so concerned about? Well, that allows workers to retire with some sort of dignity after they have out lived their usefulness. Do you honestly think that if the Payroll taxes were cut that any company would pass that tax cut along to his/her employees so they could sock away a little for retirement?

You are so full of bullshit with this hidden tax. It has been out in the open since the 1930's and you and your ilk have been trying to get rid of that so-called hidden taxes before FDR's ink was dry on the signed bill.

Yea, and that payroll tax you are so worried about? All that has done is allow your fellow free marketeers to borrow against that money whenever the country was unfortunate enough to have the GOP in charge of the money.

Take a hike. Head on over the Freeper land. I am sure you will find a mess of fellow travelers over there.

[Blue Dog Dominion]

116. Those taxes are hidden if people don't know they are there

A LOT of people don't realize their employer pays these taxes on their behalf. I just think if people releazed the AMOUNT of taxes paid "in their name" would make them feel a little bit different about that "mean old boss" that is trying to get everyone paid.

I never said any of those taxes are bad, just that a lot of people don't realize they are there and PAID FOR BY THEIR EMPLOYER. You're an asshole for accusing me otherwise, but I'm sure thats not the first time you've heard that.

[WCGreen]

121. My point is the empoyer knows of these expenses. It's not like they

hired a bunch of people and all of sudden discovered all these new taxes...

[Blue Dog Dominion]

122. I was talking about the employee

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a college educated friend a couple of years ago.

He didn't know about his employer kicking in for FICA and was somewhat shocked that approximatly 15% of his pay goes to SS. It didn't take him long to figre out that his ROI on SS benefits were going to be pretty paltry (based upon his SS statment and what he thought he was contributing).

He ended up getting laid off about a year later and I asked if he signed up for unemployment. He said he didn't want too because that would make him feel like a loser. I told him that he was a fool for NOT taking them, as in a supply and demand sense HE paid for that unemployment insurance

[Senator]

141. His ROI ?!?

You might want to remind your college-educated friend (and yourself) that SS has no ROI. It is insurance, not investment.

Sure, you can pretend that this is money that could be given to him to invest. But the same can be said about the money in his neighbor's wallet. What he and his employer are "contributing" to is an insurance premium.

Too steep a premium? Try adding up all the peace-of-mind benefits -- of guaranteed "limitless" retirement payout, disability benefit, survivorship benefit, healthcare. To say nothing of the intangible of not fearing old-age destitution for oneself or one's parents, and increasingly, one's children.

Or try asking some recent 401K-deflation victims if they'd rather risk their futures on possible Bush III economic theories. Or try chatting with an Enron retiree/victim.

Because that's the "hidden" alternative you're offering.

---

[mrreowwr_kittty]

143. So if you didn't have to pay those 'hidden taxes' you'd pass them on to your employees?

Waiting...

[Blue Dog Dominion]

148. Supply and Demand

If they didn't pass them on they would eventually lose those employees to companies that did.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

149. Uh huh.

[Enthusiast]

106. You mean like Social Security?

Why don't you Republicans run your next presidential candidate on the platform of doing away with Medicare and Social Security? Try truth in advertising, for once, instead of your lies. And don't compound your lies by claiming to be a Democrat.

[ProfessorGAC]

110. Hidden?

Nice try. There are no hidden taxes. It's right there on everyone's pay stub.

GAC

[Delver Rootnose]

131. those payroll taxes...

...are not your money to be cried over they are money that is being deducted, granted by you the business owner, as a convenience/requirement from the EMPLOYEE’S PAY. If the taxes those monies are for were reduced they should go to the EMPLOYEE not you. I don’t like having 50% of my paycheck, if I had one being currently unemployed , being eaten away by taxes and deductions for insurance etc. but it they are part of the pay package you must give me if you want my services. That is why when companies renege on deferred payments like pensions then I think a theft has occurred.

[jeff47]

132. Yes, I've had to worry about making payroll

Have you ever had to decide who in the house goes hungry tonight? That makes your payroll bullshit look easy.

[aquart]

139. Especially small business.

And let's add in that workmen's compensation doesn't allow for part-time workers. It's forced many small businesses to pay off the books which ends up cheating everybody. Do we realize that expense would basically disappear with universal healthcare? Which means more people would be legally on the books and contributing to social security, helping it and them in the long run.

Our current healthcare system is hugely destructive to American small businesses. It deliberately stifles them in favor of large corporations. This hurts innovation, initiative, everything.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

142. Would you write an email like the first one?

If not, then this isn't about you.

[kenfrequed]

145. howzabout this

Dear stupid, short sighted, arrogant, ignorant, incompetant boss,

I don't want to confuse you or anything but it isn't as though this threat of leaving the country is remotely new to us. You make it every time we ask for a wage increase that even comes to your table. Of course I won't discuss that you have already defacto offshored the janitorial services hiring that agency provides for you, the INS is giving you enough problems for that.

Maybe I, the unworthy peon that actually shows up and does my job everyday )including the off the clock OT that your assistant manager keeps assuring us is needed to keep the shop open) can make a few minor suggestions that might benefit you.

1. Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh for your information about taxation. Unless you are looking for a cheap place to get Vicodin or Oxy, then his fat butt isn't going to have any real information for you and results in the kind of letter you sent us.

2. Stop sending money to the Chamber of Commerce. This isn't a group of cooperative small businesses helping each other out and promoting good business practices and civil stewardship. It is a clearinghouse for ideologues and a closet that the big corporations whispers "truths" to you about the government.

3. Stop big businesses that seek local tax abatements or extra tax giveaways. Accept that Walmart and other big businesses like them are the enemy of a healthy economy. If you are against excessive use of Welfare you should really be directing your anger at a company that pays so poorly and provides so little in the way of healthcare that their workers have to apply for public assistance, heck they even offer instructionals on how to do so.

4. And speaking of this you should get behind universal single payer healthcare as soon as humanly possible. Stop calling it socialism just because your even wealthier friends at the golf course joke about it. This is a good thing for you. Our insurance premiums are based on the negotiating power of the number of employees you have under you and no amount of grouping or lumping is going to significantly effect this. They are going to increase well above the rate of inflation every year to assure profitability in the health care industry.

With universal single payer you would not have to worry about it any longer and you might also be able to significantly reduce the premiums on your workers compensation insurance since it would eliminate most of the medical bill end of it. Also with this you can refocus on wages a decent percentage of this and it might help you compete with the larger corporations in terms of profitability and attracting a better workforce. After all, if you really are a small business owner, you don't have shareholders that are going to eat up the majority of the savings.

5. Get off the backs of single mothers and children. I know it was popular to yell at or deride or scorn the poor during the 1980's but seriously it really is starting to look bad. If you are worried about their contribution and how about creating realistic and flexible jobs or providing low cost or free daycare here at work. I am willing to bet that they would prefer to make a decent living for their children if they knew their children would be safe and well cared for. Honestly fixing yoru ire against those least able to fend for themselves and with no significant lobby to call their own makes you look even more like an ogre than your stupid letter you left me did.

6. Stop blaming the government. Infrastructure costs. If you don't believe that I have a bridge to sell you in Minneapolis, or at least whats left of their old one. You didnt complain about the internet that you used to move and sell product all over the country. You didn't complain about the water that comes in nor the fact that all the toilets work. You didn't complain much that the plows allowed most of us to make it here the day after that 4 foot of snow blizzard from back in the nineties. And you didn't complain about that Salmonella recall that prevented last years company picnic burger feast from turning into the first annual puke-o-rama. I do seem to recall your bitching about the potholes but don't we all?

7. Fire your accountant or stop doing your own books. You don't seem to be doing well at it as you seem to be thinking that you are levied all state and federal taxes prior to expenses. My bet is your boy is pocketing a pretty good sum of money every year.


If you take any of my advice and it works out for you just thank all of us working stiffs that have been making you your money every year day in and day out.

If you decide to ignore it let me know when you are having a 'going out of business sale' I got dibs on the phones.

Respectfully yours (or "Screw You" as it applies)
Joe Workman.

[kenfrequed]

177. And obviously...

This note is directed at the fictitious boss that wrote that 'letter to his employees' above.

[CherylK]

2. K & R!!!

:applause:

:patriot:

[helderheid]

3. YEAH!!!!!!!!!

[BR_Parkway]

4. Off to the Greatest with you!

[chill_wind]

5. BRAVO! And a big fat K & R.

Hope it goes straight to the DU front page

[ihavenobias]

26. Thanks, I think it's on its way.

:)

[chill_wind]

57. Excellent! :-) n/t

[gratuitous]

6. The poor baby, driving last year's Mercedes!

My goodness, how does he get out of bed each day, thinking about having to pay taxes? Taxes that didn't exist in any way, shape or form prior to January 20, 2009. And now, considering all the interest he's paid on money he's never lost, he wants to pack up his bag and leave the country?

Actually, that's just fine with me. I've had enough of the bitchers and the whiners and the moaners with their hand in the till, expecting something for nothing. When they're finally asked to pull the wagon instead of just riding along with all their possessions, they throw a tantrum like this. Fuck 'em. I've had enough of their leeching off of my work anyway. Take your loot and get the hell out. I for one still believe in a country that provides for domestic tranquility, promotes the general welfare, and secures the blessings of liberty for all its citizens, instead of just a lucky few. One less of the few will plug this drain on the Treasury and make more available for the rest of us.

Good-bye. Good luck. And fuck off, Mr. boss (and you know it's a man).

[radfringe]

7. k&r

[bluestateguy]

8. It's not patriotic to go against the Commander in Chief in a time of war

If he doesn't like America, he is free to go to some Third World tinhorn country where they coddle and pamper rich people like himself.

[20score]

9. K&R. Very good.

[Lugnut]

10. Wow!

:applause:

[FLAprogressive]

11. that one earns a big K&R from me.

[rateyes]

12. I hope whoever wrote the response delivered it with

a bitch-slap across his employer's face. :fistbump:

[Mad_Dem_X]

13. BEAUTIFUL!

:applause:

[Still Sensible]

14. An outstanding post.. K & R... I just hope

everyone realizes that there is a great deal of truth in both letters. And real success in getting the "system" fixed will be in finding the right balance between those two points of view.

And the President is right. You grow the economy and foster prosperity from the bottom up.

[treestar]

15. Good one!

If it's so miserable for him, why does he keep doing it? Oh, yeah, so he can drive a Mercedes. Because he "deserves" it.

[BreweryYardRat]

16. K&R.

Ugh. Neo-con assholes, feel free to pack up and leave. We'll be better off without you.

[progressoid]

17. Putz!

I love it!

[Riley18]

18. This made my day. Thanks.

[n2doc]

19. And of course, if "he" hadn't paid the 288 thou in taxes he would have:

Had to bribe the local police-mob-drug lords to keep from kidnapping/killing him
Had to hire bodyguards to prevent same and guard house from unwashed masses.
Had to buy 4-wheel trucks to get around on the unpaved streets (since no one was fixing them). Maybe he could buy a nice mercedes truck!
Had to bribe the Government to keep from sending soldiers to confiscate his biz and giving it to his competititors (who are also bribing said government).
Had to buy bottled water and imported specialty food since the local food and water are contaminated.
Had to send children out of country to get education, and pay up the wazoo to do it.
Had to breathe soot/pollution laden air since no government controls on said nor enforcement possible.

OR

expected the Government to provide above services by borrowing even more from China and putting the burden on all of our children to pay it in the future. Of course, he wouldn't want anything like a "death tax" either so HIS children wouldn't be forced to pay their share...

[kenichol]

130. Thank you

So many forget that the employer is able to make profits because of sacrifices (in the form of taxes) made before him to educate both his employees and customers, to provide a decently-funded police and sheriff departments & judicial districts which provided necessary stability, to provide public libraries, to provide funding for all the agencies which made our nation great.
There was an expectation those sacrifices would be honored by 'passing them on'...which the conservative's 'take, take, take' attitude dishonors.

[Delver Rootnose]

134. I don't think I got it correct...

...but I remember somewhere somebody said there was an ancient Chinese proverb that says 'taxes are what the rich pay to keep the poor from eating them' or something similar.

[bperci108]

156. Maybe you're thinking of this one:

"Religion is what keeps the poor from justly killing the rich".


:evilgrin:

[Delver Rootnose]

135. sorry for dup post.

is there a way to delete your own comments

[Robbie88]

20. Awesome!! n/t

[pacalo]

21. Good reality check!

Funny how Ebenezer didn't mention the stimulus windfall (to the rich). The selfish motivation of writing this letter to his employees is that he's worried that the Democrats won't keep the money trough flowing to the rich & he sees his employees as potential votes for keeping that trough full.

That Mercedes would look pretty silly driving on nothing but pot-holed streets & driving through weed-infested, abandoned surroundings. Someone needs to explain to him where the tax dollars go, besides helping the unfortunate.

[mbee]

22. one word -

Beautiful!

[8 track mind]

23. f-ing brilliant!!!!! n/t

[malaise]

24. Super response

:yourock:

[unblock]

25. the response about the quarterly withholdings is just plain wrong

it's entirely possible for a boss to owe $288,000 in quarterly withholdings on the backs of only 14 people. all this means is that he pays something slightly north of a million in income taxes each year, which implies that he's making a profit of 3 million or so. hardly implausible.


my response would have been something like this:

"as we are loyal employees, we made a list, so you could be aware, of all the questionable business tactics you insisted we do in order to keep our job. you should be well informed just in case word ever got out. it includes every questionable tax dodge, every jiggered accounting figure, every exaggerated representation and warranty, every questionable ingredient, every broken agreement, every skirted government regulation, and a whole host of things that would be just bad p.r. if they got out.

well, joe must have been a bit upset at your memo because he found the list we put on your desk, scanned it, and emailed it out to the entire customer list, supplier list, investor list, and wire service list, along with the irs, epa and osha.

naturally, being a prudent businessman, you made him sign a contract when he was hired, making him liable for any damage to your company as a result of that sort of thing. good luck collecting. he's already in bankruptcy because he just couldn't keep up with the bills after you slashed our medical benefits."

[bj2110]

72. please please tell me where I can make 3 mil in net income/profit with only 14 employees !-

Sorry- not possible. Even at 33% margins and only 3% overhead (both ridiculous figures in 99% of the industries in this country), thats 14 employees generating $10 million in annual sales/revenue, plus running the operations, keeping the books, and collecting from customers.

Please show me this industry - i need to quit my job and get into that business

[unblock]

85. niche software, specialty finance, etc.

you just need to have some kind of secret sauce.

[pleah]

27. K&R Oh, burn!

That was really good.

[mbee]

28. One of my favorites that the greedy business owners do is

ask the consumer to pay for a warranty on their products. Usually when I am asked if I would like to buy a warranty on a TV or whatever the product may be I give the same response. Why would I want to pay to warrant your product?
If it doesn't work properly I will never do business with you again. The American people need to get tougher and tell these people where to get off.

[Number23]

29. "if you would rather cry in your Dom about how abused YOU are because you can only have steak

...four times a week instead of five, don't let America's door hit you in the ass on your way out..."

LOVE IT!! Love it, love it!! :applause:

[infidel dog]

30. Can someone say "Greatest"??? This dog can.

[Chulanowa]

31. Can't reccomend enough

Outstanding

[louis-t]

32. Whines about all the taxes he pays yet.....

still has a new Mercedes every year and lives in a "big home". Hmmmm.

[Seldona]

34. Simply the most DUzy worth op I have ever read.

What to do you think DU?

[OhioChick]

35. Hear, Hear!

A big K&R

:kick:

[mitchum]

37. His employees should turn that "big house" into a pyre

[democrank]

38. Bravo!

I`m going to do reread this one.

[snappyturtle]

39. Perfect! K&R nt

[LiberalPersona]

41. Beautiful /nt

[bertman]

43. As a small-business owner my opinion is that BOTH letters are over-the-top and

represent extreme positions.

I've been an employee and an owner so I know the frustrations and the joys of both. If I received a letter like the one that is attributed to the employer I would respond with a letter like the one attributed to the employee (excellent reply ihavenobias).

Sure, there are some asshole business owners who would write a letter like that and feel it was totally justified, but I'm pretty sure they are a minority--at least of small business owners.

Employees probably outnumber employers by ten to one or more, so I realize that most people have no idea what business ownership entails. It's not all counting your millions of dollars of loot, loading it in your Mercedes/Jag/Hummer, and taking it to the bank. Some of us actually work right alongside our employees and share the fun and the misery of being working folks. And hopefully we are more attuned to the needs of our employees than the thoughtless butthole represented in the first letter. If our company has a good year we make good money because we owners put up the capital (bad word to some, I know, but it's accurate) to keep the business going. And if our company has a bad year we owners are the ones who still have to pay the bills even though the money isn't coming in. In the company I own with a partner, we share our profits with the people who work with us and help make the company prosperous. That's our philosophy of how a business should operate.

Right now, due to the economy, our workload is slowing down and we are trying to keep everybody working despite having fewer jobs. As Blue Dog Dominion said earlier it is very stressful and disheartening to have to tell your employees that there is no work, so those good people who work for you will have no job and no benefits and they and their families will suffer.

I'm not looking for sympathy. Just saying that there is another side to being a business owner. Most of us are not RICH. Most of us want the best for our employees and we try to treat them as we would want to be treated if we were in their shoes.

So, I'm glad everyone who has (or has had) a really shit boss is getting a chance to get the anger out at the SOB. But please don't forget those of us who are trying to do the right thing.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

99. I refer you to Rule Number One of the Intertubes

1. If a post isn't about you, then it is NOT ABOUT YOU.

[bertman]

124. Thanks catburgler, but don't forget Rule Number One A.: When gross generalizations

are being thrown around about groups of people, it's usually good if someone can inject a note of reality into the discussion. Even on the internets.

[Scout]

126. oh, thanks for helping us poor ignorant fools who thought both letters

applied in all details to all people

:eyes:

[bertman]

174. You're welcome.

Oh wait. You were being sarcastic.


:(

[mrreowwr_kittty]

140. What gross generalization? The OP is about one fictitious asshole.

There was no wholesale condemnation of small business owners despite the fact that a few DUers chose to see it that way and get defensive.

[fascisthunter]

44. Bravo!!!!

[Not Sure]

46. Good stuff.

I can't imagine how such a dickhead continues to have employees show up from day to day. No job is worth being treated like that.

[Bette Noir]

47. Hoax.

Neither of these letters is genuine. I say that without evidence-- it just sets off my bologna alarm.

[ihavenobias]

48. Hmm, I thought I was clear in my title/description but I guess not.

I purposely titled it "mass email" so that it was understood that this was floating around. And I explained that my friend wrote a response to the *mass email*.

Maybe I wasn't clear.

:)

[Azlady]

65. Ohhhh Kick & Recommend

[johnnypneumatic]

49. oh by the way, boss, you know that guy you fired?

yeah, that one last week, because you didn't like his "attitude". He killed his wife and his five kids today, and then himself.

[kywildcat]

51. I swear on all things good-I'd rec this every hour if I could.

[ChromeFoundry]

52. Nice!

:thumbsup:

[jmowreader]

53. Short, succinct response to this email

Dear Scumbag:

I read with more than slight discomfort your message of just a couple days ago, explaining you were going to fire us all and close your business if taxes were raised.

On the back of your new Mercedes is a bumper sticker that reads, "Give War a Chance!" What pays for war?

You demanded the city repave the street in front of your business. What pays for paving?

You call the police at least once a day to remove someone from your business--a vagrant on the sidewalk, someone you fired, whatever. What pays for police?

Yes, TAXES pay for all these things, and you use more than your share.

Oh, and I ran the numbers on your $288,000 tax remittance. It seems we earned you over $750,000 last quarter. You might want to tell Mary in receiving, who draws food stamps and Medicaid and walks to work because she can't even afford bus fare, why you can't afford to pay her enough to live on.

The real reason I take the time to write you isn't to castigate you for you profligate personal spending. That's fun, and I'll do it in another message, but it's not the purpose of it. It is my duty to inform you your employees have hired an investment bank to launch a hostile takeover bid for this company. Our advisors have informed us your company is worth, at most, one times cash flow--which is pathetic, as you know--thanks to the Vietnam War-era production equipment you claim you can't afford to replace, the falling-down factory building you claim you can't afford to repair, the product line you won't expand because if your father didn't own it you won't make it, and the fact your salary is 63 percent of the company's earnings. Your shareholders have approved a deal in which we pay you $3 million in really iffy payment-in-kind junk bonds, you get the fuck out of town in the next 24 hours, and we won't report the absence of brakes on the forklifts or your flagrant COBRA violations. We have further been informed that if we donate the company to the fire department and rebuild from scratch in a location that's ten miles closer to the Interstate than your rat-infested factory is, we can easily owe $1 million a quarter to the US Treasury.

The door is open. Try not to let it hit you in the ass.

[ejbr]

54. K & R n/t

[GOPBasher]

58. That was AWESOME!!!

:toast:

[Aviation Pro]

61. This is the usual bullshit full of righteousness letter.....

...that passes around right wing circles like a turd in a toilet bowl. The salient fact of the matter is that nobody who passes this pile of dung along with a sense of pride in their rightness owns a business, owns a license to own a business or has the wherewithall to run a business.

This is Joe the Fucking Non-Plumber letter.

[leeroysphitz]

62. Word. n/t

[Dystopian]

68. KandR. Awesome indeed! n/t

peace~

[HughBeaumont]

70. Let's see, we got . . .

. . . Democratic Party hatred (you know, because the conservative way of doing things is TRULY the better plan :eyes: )

. . . the freeper romanticization of the self made man (because we ALL know you hearty individualist self-made businessmen would never even THINK of using little things like public agencies that enforce property laws, public schools, employees who use public transportation, roads, bridges, airports, sewers, water treatment plants, harbors, or other utilities built and maintained at public expense, mail, hospitals, health and safety regulations, police, fire departments, libraries, any public amenities that add value to commercial or residential real estate, government contracts, government-provided business incentives, the FTC, BBB and SEC, a government-granted license permitting the exclusive use of a broadcast channel for ads, social welfare programs that keep the poor from rebelling . .. yes, you made it TOTALLY on your own, therefore, you shouldn't HAVE to be bothered with silly things like a progressive income tax! No siree!)

. . . taxophobia.

. . . the Reaganite "welfare queen", which is a kinder, gentler way of saying "N***er", especially in this e-mail. We should get rid of welfare queens. Starting with Citicorp, John Thain, B of A and GM (currently using bailout money to build a plant . . . in BRAZIL).

. . . the government inefficiency myth. ER, letter writer? Who's been in POWER for the past 28 years, specifically the last 8? NOT anyone who would spend the money wisely (read: Republican crony capitalists).

. . . the "tax cuts create jawbs" myth . . . an absolute WHOPPER of a lie.

. . . poor hatred. Uh, if no one has jobs, where's yer business coming from, stupid? Just askin'.

. . . the veiled "everyone an owner" libertarian utopia. You know, because ANYONE and EVERYONE can whip up a viable business idea, a product, a market and audience for that product, start-up capital, materials, a manufacturer, hope that a corporation can't instantly undercut you and your service, and an insane amount of luck that you're one of the one out of ten that DOESN'T fail in their first year! Like shootin' fish in a barrel! Why isn't EVERYONE doing this? If you took a job, then you MUST be stupid, unlike me!

. . . "steamrolled the Constitution". Specific examples, please, on how week-in-office Barack Obama's . .. "steamrolling" that there Constitution. Specific examples, please; because I can name a fuckton of ways your benevolent King George (a veritable CHAMPION of small business, no doubt) used that thing as a giant towel to wash his ass with. Money where thy mouth is, freeper . . . money where thy mouth is.

This one just about has it all. The response is great, BTW.

Freepers. They really tell it like it AIN'T.

[LiberalEsto]

115. Don't forget "little things"

like those taxpayer-funded mega sports stadiums with fancy taxpayer-funded private skyboxes where the filthy rich corporate types can entertain their friends and deduct it from their taxes (whatever tiny amount the poor babies are forced to pay) as a business expense, thereby forcing us lowlife worker types to pay even MORE taxes to subsidize their personal enjoyment of public amenities that we, the average public, can't afford to use ourselves.

[snot]

73. EXCUSE ME: TYT YouTube Account SUSPENDED??? Is this the bigger news? nt

Pls provide details -- maybe best in a new OP.

[ihavenobias]

77. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4925209

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4925380

[johncoby2]

74. Both letters are way to damn long

Couldn't get through any of them

[texastoast]

76. Proud2B #100

This is what we all have to do. The "haves" sure "have" it coming.

[Autonomy]

78. Best post I've ever read

This post (the reply part) sums up why I am on this website and why I am a Democrat. I hope that the rich leave the country and drop out of the business world -- that will leave less competition for those of us who are *really* hungry to make it.

Btw, the economic arguments the conservative businessman uses do not hold water. What he is actually saying in subtext is that he deserves more becuase he is *better than* his workers.

[southernyankeebelle]

79. Yeah Go ahead

Move your company to India where sometime last year a Italian businessman was murdered because his company laid off some people. There country didn't seem upset about it at all. So go ahead. Just make sure that President Obama put high tariff on your products coming back into the country.

[Career Prole]

81. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

[davefromqueens]

86. Bravolicious

[snake in the grass]

87. Beautiful.

I hope I get this chain mail now.

[Blue_Tires]

88. GRAND SLAM

[matthewf]

91. k&r

[Wetzelbill]

92. The bottom line is every Dem president has had better job and economic growth

than every Republican president. At their best Republicans aren't as good as Dems at their worst. So whatever the rationale the Republicans have for their economic philosophy the Dems are still better. They can say everything over and over and over, but their way of running an economy is vastly inferior. That's just a fact.

[Kitty Herder]

93. K&R

[Chisox08]

94. A big K & R

[newtothegame]

96. Wow both sound like they're full of shit...n/t

[Common Sense Party]

102. Exactly.

Both have a few nuggets of truth, mixed in with a boatload of hyperbole, lies and exaggerations.

[Pacifist Patriot]

120. That was pretty much my take on it. I thought it sounded like two people...

who were too shrill and self-absorbed to ever try to see another perspective and thereby reach a mutually advantageous position.

[newtothegame]

125. Yeah, I have a hard time believing either the original or response is from an actual scenario...

but if it is, yes, they are both full of it. I can understand the employee's point of view, but I can also understand a person being visibly upset at paying 50% of everything they make back to the government. We are truly in a sad state of affairs right now; we're getting very little for our money.

[ihavenobias]

168. As the thread title and introduction indicate, neither response IS from an actual scenario.

Hence the carefully chosen wording (mass email as opposed to simply "email"). Obviously it's an email circulated by right wingers...like the grasshopper and the cricket story, etc.

[ihavenobias]

167. FYI: The second response was purposely written with the same tone and hyperbole

It was *meant* to match the first letter. I thought that was obvious, but apparently not.

[Pacifist Patriot]

178. I'm not an idiot. I completely understand that it was a response to a crafted mass email.

I fully realize that neither of the "authors" exist as actual persons. That does not change my assessment of the quality and tone of the missives. I think both are short-sighted, shrill, and self-absorbed perspectives. Tit for tat isn't necessarily the best tactic as a response.

[ihavenobias]

179. Not always the best tactic, but in this case, quite an entertaining one.

(I'm not alone in that evidenced by 95% of the reaction)

I'm not saying anything, I'm just sayin'.

;)

[Pacifist Patriot]

180. I am perfectly comfortable having minority tastes. ;-)

Cheers

[Imagevision]

98. McCain today; "Obama's stimulus package must contain more tax cuts" imagine if he was elected

[Common Sense Party]

101. Awesome? Hardly. BOTH letters were full of much crap.

The truth, as is often the case, lies somewhere in between.

[Norrin Radd]

103. Nordstrom's?

The dick who wrote the conservative letter must live around Seattle...

[Stainless]

129. Nordstrom's

We have a couple of em here in Northern Utah too. The Con could easily be a whining Mormon cheapskate; They're notorious for screwing their employees.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

150. We have them in AZ as well.

The first letter, though probably a work of fiction, expresses sentiments I hear from many a Limbaugh-listening choad around these parts.

[Optical.Catalyst]

109. The conservative letter sounds like a product of Neil Boortz

It is on his web site, but he denies writing it.

It is the typical conservative view of us who have to work. The 'boss' overlooks that some of us don't have the influence and pull in the right places to get a business going or circumstances preclude putting 100% effort into building a business.

It is socially unacceptable to (and less than human) to kick a dieing family member to the curb to worship the great god of capitalism.

I hope the 'boss' can live with his conscience

[liberal N proud]

113. I can't believe an employer would write something so stupid

Even a conservative asshole.

I guess you never know these days.

Great response, hope there is no retribution

[lonestarnot]

117. Oh hell yeah! Face card, check card! Employee Free Choice Act!

Hell yeah! Get out you Putz!

[Gman]

118. $288K in QUARTERLY payroll taxes?? He should be making weekly deposits

if he's paying that much a quarter. There's a box on the 941 you have to check if you're paying more than $2,500 in the reported quarter. AND... almost half of that $288K is NOT his money, it's federal WITHHOLDING (i.e. his employees' money) that he's depositing. I smell something kinda rotten here.

[Common Sense Party]

147. Not to mention he's paying way too much.

If, as the response e-mail suggested, he's only paying $28,000 to each of his 14 employees, then his quarterly payroll tax bill would only be about $7500, not $288K.

Both e-mails are gross exaggerations.

[Soylent Brice]

128. it doesn't get any better than that.

outstanding.

[George II]

133. If this was really sent by a business owner to his employees....

...one should point how out many of our federal and local (not sure of the locality but they're all similar) this person violated!!!

[dccrossman]

136. K&R

Awesome.

[denverbill]

137. Isn't it interesting how thesefake letters are always about the small businessman?

How come they are never from the CEO of a corporation that just outsourced 5000 jobs to India and gave the CEO a bonus? Or the President of a corporation that buys up it's competition, fires all the employees, then raises it's prices and gives the President a $20 million raise?

Why don't they ever talk about the CEO whose grandfather's hard work sent him to Yale and Harvard, and whose father's connections guaranteed him a job, who never in his life had to worry about whether to pay the overdue water bill or the overdue electric bill with his last $94?

Or the CEO who paid lobbyists $1,000,000 to lobby Congress to eliminate tariffs on ceiling fans, so he could import them dirt cheap from China and undersell his competition, who sold American built fans, thus costing everyone at that company their jobs, including the hard-working owner of that small business?

They never mention the CEO who hands his Senator a check for $100,000 and promises him a seat on his board of Directors when he retires if the Senator pushes a government contract his way.

It's always a nameless, faceless, productless, cityless, hard-working guy, who built his business with his own two hands, but who is apparently ashamed to name himself.

[YOY]

138. I would add the line: "Time to stick a fork in it. The Regan revolution has officially failed."

If they want to deny it tell them to have some "personal accountability".

[guitar man]

144. K&R

:applause:

bookmarked ;)

[truebrit71]

146. Simply BRILLIANT!!!

Bravo!!

[Rabrrrrrr]

151. Both are over-generalized ignorant bullshit that only quashes dialogue, not helps it.

Too many of my fellow liberals need to start learning that a) many business owners are liberals, and are not evil, and b) that even business owners who are conservative are not necessarily evil, and c) not all employees are God's little perfect angels on earth.

[Redstone]

154. Bingo, bingo, bingo. You nailed it perfectly, Rabrrrrrr.

Redstone

[mrreowwr_kittty]

157. Okay. So the OP is not about them.

Sheesh. If the post isn't about you, then it ISN'T ABOUT YOU. What's so hard to understand about that?

[Rabrrrrrr]

181. Oh, open your fucking mind up. The problem with shit like this is stereotype perpetuation,

the stereotype that all business owners are Republican selfish bloviating shitbags who will fuck an employee over for a penny, and that all employees are angelic perfect little people who work their asses off perfectly making perfect product and all they want is just a smidgen or a crumb, and their evil selfish republican asshat business owner boss won't even give them that without forcing them to kiss his ass.

This is an insane, unhelpful, dialogue-stopping stereotype that has to fucking end.

There are a lot of employees out there who are worthless, lazy-ass, sabotaging idiot fuckbags.

There are a lot of business owners who are dyed in the wool liberal progressive democrats who treat their employees better than average.

Just as there are amazingly hard working employees who go unappreciated, and shiftless unethical business owners who have all the respect for an employee as I do for the snot I blow out of my nose.

Stop the goddamned stereotyping. That's what these two letters are.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

183. The first "letter" is a characature concocted in a RW think tank.

It uses a "small business owner" to spout RW talking points.

As for the "response":

There are a lot of employees out there who are worthless, lazy-ass, sabotaging idiot fuckbags.

Well, tell us, how do you REALLY feel? :eyes:

It's a damn good response to a stupid-ass RW chain e-mail.

[Rabrrrrrr]

184. No, it is not a "damn good response" - it is a response as equally ignorant and stereotyping

as the first letter.

And thanks for quoting me without any context - that's what the ignorant shitwit fanatics on both sides do.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

185. Out of context?

It was a stand-alone phrase. You went to the trouble to separate it by hitting return. Don't try to backpedal now.

At any rate, the original email in the OP is a FICTITIOUS BULLSHIT RIGHT WING CONCOCTION. It is not from a real business owner. The point was to spread bullshit conservative memes. The point of the response was to counter them. It succeeded.

[Rabrrrrrr]

188. Yes, out of context. Spacing is irrelevant. Don't be disigenuous.

That sentence is clearly the first in a trio of sentences that makes a whole picture, for which quoting any one of them without the rest is a clear attempt at obfuscation and character assassination.

Your argument based on "spacing" speaks volumes about the lack of integrity of your intentions.

I always find it hilarious - though also frustrating - to come across who simply refuse to read what is actually there, and insist on rewriting (i.e., intentionally misreading) people's words to mean whatever they want so they can go on the attack.

If you pulled a bullshit stunt like that in a college paper, any ethical professor would give you a great big FAIL.

[Redstone]

152. Oh, fuck both of them, and the respective horses they rode in on.

A "boss" (who doesn't actually exist, and very, VERY few business owners would resemble, and CERTAINLY would be smart enought to not put his contempt for his employees in writing like that).

A "progressive reply" full of all kinds of bitterness - and a waste of time, for having been duped into the effort of crafting the "reply" to a business owner who simply DOES NOT EXIST. And a reply that furthermore does not acknowledge that this is, after all, America - where you don't HAVE to work anywhere you don't want to work. Go get a different job if you don't like your boss.

Putz.

Redstone

[ihavenobias]

170. (Sigh) Did anyone read the title and introduction to this thread?

Apparently not. If they had I wouldn't be seeing responses like this one. It was a MASS EMAIL. The person who wrote the response KNOWS it was a MASS EMAIL. It was not HIS boss, it was a generic, fictional right-wing boss.

The author of the response *purposely* responded with the same tone and hyperbole for this reason. Sorry if I sound angry, I'm just annoyed because I assumed that was semi-obvious.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

187. It's obvious to me.

The initial email in the OP is FICTION. The second is a response to the RW propaganda. I don't know why it's so hard for people to figre out. :shrug:

[geardaddy]

155. Brilliant reply!

:applause:

[GreenPartyVoter]

158. My hubby runs a business of 1. He can send both letters to himself! LOL

[mrreowwr_kittty]

159. ATTENTION: If you are one of the good small business owners.

Then the OP is NOT ABOUT YOU. Really, there have been more than enough "b...b...but not all small business owners are like that! stop overgeneralizing!!1!" posts on this thread. Once again:

Not.

About.

YOU.

[UpInArms]

161. the freak-a-zoid that wrote the original had the gall to say

steamrolled the constitution

:lol:

wasn't that his shit-for-brains boy - Dimson?

[humbled_opinion]

162. Everybody just needs to

come together, stop all this us against them rage. Yes many people are greedy, how many people go to Vegas and try to win by betting their hard earned money some even the kids food money. How many flippers bought houses they thought they would be able to quick fix and dump when the housing bubble was expanding only to find their dreams dashed when they couldn't sell. Yes hard work for good pay that is the American Dream. Government needs to balance the act and help where it can.

[happygoluckytoyou]

163. BEING THE OWNER means you pay for EVERYTHING i get.... yes... that's right--- maybe you should just

BE SELF-EMPLOYED.

QUIT COMPLAINING THAT as the owner YOU HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF THE SLAVES MEDICAL BENEFITS.... exactly....

THAT IS THE PRICE OF OWNING AND BENEFITING FROM A SLAVE.....

if you can't afford the UPKEEP.... feeding me, my wife, my kids, my landlord, my car payment, MY taxes.... THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD RECALCULATE THE PRICE OF OWNING A PERSON....................... maybe you are not wealthy enough to OWN 21 PEOPLE

you are... as my "OWNER" responsible for my health care, vacations, ALL THAT.... Y E S Y O U A R E

otherwise.... YES.... CLOSE YOUR DOORS.... your product is not profitable enough to support ALL OF US....

C L A S S W A R F A R E I S O N.................. V O T E P R O - U N I O N......... P R O - LIVING - WAGE ! ! !



....the occasional banker or broker who jumps from a window..... well there is another job for the street sweeper

[butterfly77]

164. Excellent response!

[Change or Revolution]

166. I once worked for an asshole like this...

...he used to base our salaries loosely on a 60 hour work week, instead of the lawful written 40 hour one. Typical Conservative---how much MORE can I squeeze out of them? My tight wallet, etc. Where the EFF were you on Saturday?!?! Yeh.

He used to beg, borrow and steal to get equipment and components in (we were an OEM and had production deadlines, etc. impossible ones, at that, but that's a different story...) and lied to all of his creditors in the process...

Well, kiddies...guess where the evil tyrant is now? His company folded under Chapter 11 a number of years ago. Universal Law prevailed.

Luckily, I was already gone by then...I left to continue my education after he told me he'd make work get in the way of my attempt to finish my very necessary Bachelor's Degree.

[daggahead]

165. Huzzah! n/t

[Political_Junkie]

171. Yeah!!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Two thumbs WAY up!

[november3rd]

172. How did they stop cooperatives?

How did they stop cooperatives? How did they stop cooperatives from sprouting out of the new deal? It sseems like we have to break down the system in order to get back to a point where we can build it up on a stronger foundation.

[MedfordTim]

173. I can't believe ANYONE would think either one "real"

OF COURSE they are both "made up." Are there any discussions about the existence of rich Nigerian Princes? If so, I'd like to ask the participants for a small loan.

Seems like excess fuss is being made about this post. Maybe it's just my perspective, but it appears to be a throw away bit of frustrated sarcasm rather than something for the ages. I'm pretty sure anyone here could have written something similar...probably better. Undoubtedly better.

Ihavenobias - I can't help but wonder if you don't have better things to do with your time. Like looking for clipped toenails in your carpet or training a cat to roll over. I'm sure you'll understand why I can't recommend it...

How's that for a first post?

[ihavenobias]

176. Considering that they cut my hours (again) at work and the TYT youtube channel is suspended

No, I *don't* have anything better to do with my time, so you're stuck with me.

;)

[bulloney]

175. People don't start up businesses to create jobs per se. They do it to make money.

But, in order to make that money, they have to purchase labor.

The creation of jobs, if you will, is a second-tier benefit of a business.

I know enough business owners that if they could, they would try to operate without hiring any labor, but they can't.

I'm appreciative of the jobs created by business owners, but I'm just putting things in perspective. Too often, our local and state governments give businesses the house in the form of infrastructure upgrades and tax abatements.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

186. I think politicians are more concerned with campaign contributions.

They way they ladle out subsidies to corporations that promise good jobs and don't deliver them. The Walmarts get the lavish subsidies and the small businesses get screwed. What's really frustrating is how small biz owners swallow the GOP koolaid. I used to belong to the NFIB, until I saw the way they endorsed the absolute worst candidates and policies.