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Would keeping the bush tax cuts hurt the economy even more?

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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 11:11 PM
Original message
Would keeping the bush tax cuts hurt the economy even more?
I don't get why there is such a hesitation to repeal them? Is it because the rich won't be as rich? Won't it give the govt. more money that his badly needed for things like the bailout and all that?
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. They need to be repealed now.
The hesitation is due to not wanting to piss off the millionaires.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. If the taxcuts to the filthy stinking rich are allowed to expire then 'no one' can be blamed.
If the Dems repeal the taxcuts to the greedmongering bastards and bitches NOW, the Dems will be blamed from here to eternity. If we had NOT had taxcuts to the rich, things might be better. The wall street scumbags would have finished US off anyway!!
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. OF COURSE!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. We need them to pay for health care reform n/t
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. Maybe
There's something called the Laffer Curve - the idea that at a certain point increasing taxes does not increase revenue. This is not an entirely Conservative principle - John Maynard Keynes supposedly spoke of this (although well before the graphic was developed).

So, the theory is that if the tax rate is increased, people may have disincentive to work or will be willing to spend more to find ways to avoid paying taxes. I think we are already seeing this with corporation. On paper, the US corporate tax rate exceeds that of many other industrialized nations (John McCain mentioned this a debate point). However, most US corporations find tax shelters and don't pay anywhere near what the rate is (Senator McCain conveniently forgot to mention this.

Take an excise tax or sales tax. If there were high user taxes, a strong black market may develop. Then, the government either loses out on revenue, or has to spend more money tracking down "free traders."

There's something to the theory, although I think corporations are going to do whatever they can to avoid taxes anyway. To me it isn't so much a matter of increasing taxes, but how we collect them - getting smarter about the types of exemptions and shelters we allow.
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. The Laffer curve is appropriately named.
It's a joke some economist drew up on a napkin. AFAIK, it has no basis in reality.

The fact is that high marginal tax rates encourage reinvestment. Allowing rich people to 'keep their own money' just encourages hoarding and wealthy dynasties.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. It hasn't helped us yet...
why would it now?

http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/2010/decline.htm
In the 1970s and 1980s, many of the industrial giants in the United States, Europe, and Japan became global companies; they no longer wanted to claim allegiance to any country in the world. By becoming global companies they could force nations to compete with each other to attract their companies to build factories in their countries. By the 1980s, these global companies, now often called Transnational corporations (TNCs) were aggressively using this strategy of globalization to blackmail countries into reducing their costs and increasing their profits. I believe that President Reagan's economic program, which Phillips and others have called Reaganomics, reflect the increasing reality of the global industrial economy and the power of TNCs to blackmail even the biggest and strongest countries and force them to create economic, political, and social conditions that will reduce their companies' costs and increase their profits. Let's now look at some of the major demands these TNCs imposed on industrial countries in the 1980s and 1990s:

Demands Made by Transnational Corporations to do Business in a
Country under the Global Economy

1. Greatly reduce Corporate taxes and taxes on the rich.

2. Greatly reduce government spending in order to cut taxes.

3. Increase taxes on the middle-class and poor to pay for the necessary government services, such as support for TNCs.

4. Reduce environmental, work-safety, and product-safety regulations.

5. Provide millions and millions of dollars in tax incentives and subsidies to TNCs in order to convince them to locate in your country.

6. Build and support modern industrial factories for TNCs to use rent-free.

7. Create tax-free export processing zones so that TNCs can produce products without paying any taxes at all.

8. Reduce and lower worker's wages by keeping the minimum wage low or eliminating the minimum wage altogether.

9. Reduce the costs of hiring workers by reducing or eliminating workers' compensation taxes, social security taxes,and health insurance taxes.

10. Allow child-labor at almost any age and under any conditions.

11. Do not enforce maximum work-day hours, such as the eight hour day or the 40 hour week.

12. Use government power to crush and weaken labor unions. Allow companies to hire security firms to harass and intimidate workers and unions.

13. Allow TNCs to freely take their money and profits out of your country.

14. Reduce government support for health-care, education, and anti-poverty and anti-hunger programs, forcing workers to work for any wage just to take care of and feed their families.

15. Support global free trade and work to prevent countries from denying companies the right to sell their products despite the brutal conditions, environmental destruction, and exploitation of their workers.

16. Don't restrict or limit immigration and encourage high levels of unemployment in order to force workers to compete by working for lower and lower wages.

17. Limit and restrict local and national government control over their economies. Encourage global bodies to set economic standards that will benefit TNCs.

18. Limit the ability of workers and citizens to challenge the TNCs and their own government's economic programs which help the TNCs at their expense.

19. Create massive national debts in order to bankrupt governments and force them to be even more at the mercy of the TNCs. Governments can thus say they have no choice but to accept these conditions.

20. Force your citizens to accept lower standards of living and quality of life in order to guarantee higher profits for TNCs.


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Kat45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Interesting.
I don't think I ever looked at it from that perspective.
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
8. Timing works out well the way it is
Even bad stimulus is better than no stimulus during a bad recession. The Bush tax cuts were dumb because they were a long-term bad stimulus that mostly came after the recession. At this point, it wouldn't be bad to keep the cuts for a year anyway, but the politics make it a slam dunk - it won't much require political capital to let them expire, but it would be the main battle to repeal them one year early. There'll be so much debt to pay off, the key thing is raising top brackets in a way that they'll stay raised. The federal gov't doesn't have to balance the budget each year, so it can take the longer view. My 2 cents, or 1.44 cents after tax.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
10. REPEAL . . .return to progressive taxes on the rich ....
Are there new laws now that any tax increases on rich have to be approved by

a larger majority?

Did that pass?

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. If they die their normal death, there will be no one to blame for the death
Political expediency trumps appropriateness. Different day, same tune.
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