for those of you who think poverty is not torture..

[undergroundpanther]

My first run in with poverty and cold at the same time.

I was having difficulty getting heating oil one year. I found out I cannot get oil on credit because I don't make enough income to qualify for it.Never mind I have no debts and pay my bills, and on time too.By November I had saved up some money maybe a quarter tank's worth but I was told that was not enough for the fuel co. to bother to come out to fill up the tank.
AArgh,the arrogant ASSHOLES!I was pissed.

My roomate was not making enough money to add much to paying for oil,either.Together we maybe had enough for a third of a tank ful.We needed at least enough money for half a tank to get delivery.So we had no heat during a cold snap that came early.And it WAS cold .The teperatures hovered somewhere around 17,20 degrees at night for about a week.

I could see my own breath by the kitchen light.
That night I piled on every blanket I had, it was so heavy,like laying under a blanket of cement,shifting positions was impossible my cats were under there too,I slept with long johns, pants a long sleeved t-shirt a thick fleece lined flannel shirt.I had on 2 pr socks and stocking slippers on top of that.Later I had to add a hat, gloves and eventually a scarf because my nose was freezing off.It was so cold even with all that on me I could not get warm enough to sleep.My fingers and feet hurt,my face hurt,my nose felt like ice except when I exhaled. Every extremity hurt.I would turn on the light look at my pale fingers scared I might be getting frostbite. I was so cold I shivered constantly. It was misery.

The next night we had to figure out something to take the edge off the cold as the wind howled outside. We strategically put candles around the house to keep the cold drafts out.It seemed to help.Was it the placebo effect? I dunno.We were still shivering like hell.But again leaving burning candles going as you sleep is a bad idea. So I piled on and slipped under the two ton blankets again.Freezing my ass off.

The next night rather than shiver I blew some grocery money , knowing the last week I'd be broke. I got a cheap ceramic space heater.It was a war between food for a week or heat,this time heat won.Plugging it in is when I found out the wiring in this house is substandard.It blew out all the fuses on one side of the house if ANYTHING else was running on that circuit.So we used flashlights to see.

So when I was in my room the space heater helped me but my roommate was left cold.So I told him he could sleep in my room if he couldn't take the cold anymore.He stayed in his room.I got up and tapped the door a few times that night to make sure he was ok.

The next day my roommate found a abandoned container of #2 diesel oil at an old job site he was clearing.He asked his boss if he could have it.Boss let him take it.(this was before oil was insane prices)He got a truck from work and poured it into our tank. It was enough to fill it to the top.It was a pain in the ass to restart the furnace pilot light tho. when warm air came out of the ducts we were overjoyed we cheered! The cats migrated to the vents.That donated oil got us through the winter or at least the worst of it that year.Having warmth here that year was due to sheer luck and because the boss was kind enough to let us have that oil.

I had no idea Citgo was giving out heating oil for low income households nor had anyone told me about other programs that help with heat costs
Being THAT cold,that it aches and feels like you might be getting frostbite,that is torture.Some are not so lucky in the very same situation I was in and they end up dead.
Sometimes it's the power companies greed directly or a stigma against poverty the oil company has that prevents poor folks from getting the oil we need because we lack enough income to qualify for it.
That's corporate greed at it's worst.

There is so much people take for granted who are not poor.

Like having enough food, having heat every winter,or reliable transportation. Try living without a fixed address,or doing without a safe sanitary place to relieve yourself,no place to shower or no place or money to wash your clothes.

Poverty is really a socially sanctioned form of financial abuse.Poverty is caused by the collective will of the well off,the greedy and the corporate. And like any other type of abuse it HURTS.Poverty hurts, it pins you down, and robs you of your health,sanity,and human dignity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At each step down the employment and social scale from rich to poor, health outcomes worsen. The clearest demonstration of that came in two studies of British government office workers. The first, started in 1967, established the link between job status and mortality from a wide range of diseases. Michael G. Marmot, who heads the Department of Epidemiology at London Medical School, wrote later:

"In this relatively homogeneous population ...each group had a higher mortality rate than the group one step higher in the hierarchy. The difference in mortality was threefold between the highest and lowest positions in the hierarchy. The question is not why people at the bottom have worse health, but why social differences in health are spread across the whole of society."(12)
http://www.cfah.org/factsoflife/vol3no1.cfm

Financial abuse: is everyday life for people living in poverty.

[Mira]

1. Thank you for telling us, it hurts me to read it.

:kick:

[AtomTan]

57. nt

[gratefultobelib]

2. I hope things are better now. I can't believe the oil co wouldn't come and fill the tank

one quarter full. Heartless. :hug:

[Marrah_G]

47. They generally do not deliver less then 100 gallons

That is around 250.00 right now.

[I Have A Dream]

3. Nobody should have to go through this.

:cry:

Thank you for sharing your experience with us, undergroundpanther.

[Wiley50]

4. I'm in a fiberglass sailboat with no insulation at all

I use two electric space heaters to heat (The old kind with coils and a fan)

They don't heat the whole boat so I hung a quilt across the bulkheads

to close off the bow area that has the vee berth where I sleep.

It works ok down to single digits. Below that.............?

But with less than a 1/4" of fiberglass between me and outside

when the power goes out (and it does often) it starts getting really cold in 5 minutes

When it happens late at night when I can't go over to the basement of the landlord's house to reset the breakers

I spend some frigid nights: exactly as you describe

It sucks

[undergroundpanther]

28. Hey Wiley

Hope you are ok out there.Keep warm any way you can.and I also hope your pain is under control too. I worry about you.

[formercia]

43. Been there too.

The hardest part of sleeping at night in subfreezing weather is keeping the extremities warm. The body, in self defense, will try to keep the core warm at the expense of the extremities, thus aggravating the situation.
I got around it by getting a pair of Sorel boot liners. They were designed to keep feet warm in the Arctic. A pair of Sorels and clean, dry socks made from Wool, Polypropylene or Acrylic will do the trick.

Cotton will kill you. It gets damp from the moisture given off by the body and will draw the heat right out of you.

Wear loose clothing that traps air. Tight clothing allows heat to escape.

[Fireweed247]

54. Sounds like fun to live in a boat...

in the summer! I wonder what you could use to insulate that for the winters, would those cans of spray foam stick to fiberglass?

Do you have a down sleeping bag, wool socks and polypropelene(sp) long johns? If not, there are lots of generous DUers that might just help you out.

[dysfunctional press]

67. get some corrogated cardboard, and put down several layers between your bed and the hull.

it'll help some with the insulating.

is the boat out of water?

[earthboundmisfit]

68. Oh Wiley I hope you are OK - I just got internet back

have been online only from library or friend's or sister's since I lost my job. But we still have a roof over our head and the heat's still on. How I wish I could help you, dear friend. All the hell I can do is send warm thoughts your way, and that does no good when you're chilled to the bone. :cry: :hug:

[panader0]

5. When I was 18 (I'm 58 now) I bought a fine down mummy sleeping bag

I can sleep outside in the snow down to below zero. (with a foam pad beneath me). I knew then that I would never freeze to death. North Face is a good brand. You can't move around that much, but you can but left and right zipping bags, and zip them together, even better.

[justgamma]

6. I remember those days.

We had 2 five gallon pails. That we filled up with diesel every couple of days. We couldn't afford to fill up the barrel. They wanted cash, no way could we save enough for a whole barrel full. Never underestimate how great heat feels when you are cold deep down in your bones.

[n2doc]

7. Poverty killed at 93 year old this week by slow, painful means

93-year-old froze to death, owed big utility bill
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

BAY CITY, Mich. -- A 93-year-old man froze to death inside his home just days after the municipal power company restricted his use of electricity because of unpaid bills, officials said.

Marvin E. Schur died "a slow, painful death," said Kanu Virani, Oakland County's deputy chief medical examiner, who performed the autopsy.

Neighbors discovered Schur's body on Jan. 17. They said the indoor temperature was below 32 degrees at the time, The Bay City Times reported Monday.

"Hypothermia shuts the whole system down, slowly," Virani said. "It's not easy to die from hypothermia without first realizing your fingers and toes feel like they're burning."

Schur owed Bay City Electric Light & Power more than $1,000 in unpaid electric bills, Bay City Manager Robert Belleman told The Associated Press on Monday.

more:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110ap_frozen_indoors.html

[NaturalHigh]

63. I was about to post that.

Someone should be charged with negligent homicide for this man's death. He died because he owed $1,000. There is no excuse for this other than greed and indifference to life.

[Chulanowa]

8. I remember having the same situation several times while living in Alaska

On more than one occasion the whole family slept outside because we could build a fire in the back yard and stay way warmer than we would with blankets inside, while all of us scraped, begged and oddjobbed for heating oil funds.

[blues90]

9. I know what it's like to not have the basics

I spent 2 weeks when I lived in IL in Jan when I could not afford my apt anylonger at age 21. I had to move what little I had into semi trailer they had parked where I worked and I tried to sleep first in my 66 VW and being -20 degrees that didn't last more than an hour so I went into the trailer and piled everything I had on my couch and still almost froze. I ended up with a pile of twigs and branches and made a fire outside near the trailer and slept near that but it was not a nights sleep. This is not something one could get away with today.

No one should have to freeze or go hungry or left to bake in the heat.

Right now being on a fixed income we have to choose between food or heat even though it only gets to 45 degrees at night here we go without the heat and the cats pile in with us. I have to use the same double edged razor blade for months and stretch everything as far as it will go , nothing goes to waste or is taken granted for. Sew worn clothes and as always we buy thrift store clothes.

But being cold like that is the worst thing I can think of to this day since 1970.

All I can think about is all the people who continue to lose their jobs and it keeps me up almost every night. It almost seems like we may have to go back to communes just to survive.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. Here's the list that was posted on many blogs post-Katrina:

Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.

Being poor is getting angry at your kids for asking for all the crap they see on TV.

Being poor is having to keep buying $800 cars because they’re what you can afford, and then having the cars break down on you, because there’s not an $800 car in America that’s worth a damn.

Being poor is hoping the toothache goes away.

Being poor is knowing your kid goes to friends’ houses but never has friends over to yours.

Being poor is going to the restroom before you get in the school lunch line so your friends will be ahead of you and won’t hear you say “I get free lunch” when you get to the cashier.

Being poor is living next to the freeway.

Being poor is coming back to the car with your children in the back seat, clutching that box of Raisin Bran you just bought and trying to think of a way to make the kids understand that the box has to last.

Being poor is wondering if your well-off sibling is lying when he says he doesn’t mind when you ask for help.

Being poor is off-brand toys.

Being poor is a heater in only one room of the house.

Being poor is knowing you can’t leave $5 on the coffee table when your friends are around.

Being poor is hoping your kids don’t have a growth spurt.

Being poor is stealing meat from the store, frying it up before your mom gets home and then telling her she doesn’t have make dinner tonight because you’re not hungry anyway.

Being poor is Goodwill underwear.

Being poor is not enough space for everyone who lives with you.

Being poor is feeling the glued soles tear off your supermarket shoes when you run around the playground.

Being poor is your kid’s school being the one with the 15-year-old textbooks and no air conditioning.

Being poor is thinking $8 an hour is a really good deal.

Being poor is relying on people who don’t give a damn about you.

Being poor is an overnight shift under florescent lights.

Being poor is finding the letter your mom wrote to your dad, begging him for the child support.

Being poor is a bathtub you have to empty into the toilet.

Being poor is stopping the car to take a lamp from a stranger’s trash.

Being poor is making lunch for your kid when a cockroach skitters over the bread, and you looking over to see if your kid saw.

Being poor is believing a GED actually makes a goddamned difference.

Being poor is people angry at you just for walking around in the mall.

Being poor is not taking the job because you can’t find someone you trust to watch your kids.

Being poor is the police busting into the apartment right next to yours.

Being poor is not talking to that girl because she’ll probably just laugh at your clothes.

Being poor is hoping you’ll be invited for dinner.

Being poor is a sidewalk with lots of brown glass on it.

Being poor is people thinking they know something about you by the way you talk.

Being poor is needing that 35-cent raise.

Being poor is your kid’s teacher assuming you don’t have any books in your home.

Being poor is six dollars short on the utility bill and no way to close the gap.

Being poor is crying when you drop the mac and cheese on the floor.

Being poor is knowing you work as hard as anyone, anywhere.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually stupid.

Being poor is people surprised to discover you’re not actually lazy.

Being poor is a six-hour wait in an emergency room with a sick child asleep on your lap.

Being poor is never buying anything someone else hasn’t bought first.

Being poor is picking the 10 cent ramen instead of the 12 cent ramen because that’s two extra packages for every dollar.

Being poor is having to live with choices you didn’t know you made when you were 14 years old.

Being poor is getting tired of people wanting you to be grateful.

Being poor is knowing you’re being judged.

Being poor is a box of crayons and a $1 coloring book from a community center Santa.

Being poor is checking the coin return slot of every soda machine you go by.

Being poor is deciding that it’s all right to base a relationship on shelter.

Being poor is knowing you really shouldn’t spend that buck on a Lotto ticket.

Being poor is hoping the register lady will spot you the dime.

Being poor is feeling helpless when your child makes the same mistakes you did, and won’t listen to you beg them against doing so.

Being poor is a cough that doesn’t go away.

Being poor is making sure you don’t spill on the couch, just in case you have to give it back before the lease is up.

Being poor is a $200 paycheck advance from a company that takes $250 when the paycheck comes in.

Being poor is four years of night classes for an Associates of Art degree.

Being poor is a lumpy futon bed.

Being poor is knowing where the shelter is.

Being poor is people who have never been poor wondering why you choose to be so.

Being poor is knowing how hard it is to stop being poor.

Being poor is seeing how few options you have.

Being poor is running in place.

Being poor is people wondering why you didn’t leave.

[Jamastiene]

19. That is so true.

:cry:

[awoke_in_2003]

79. Growing up...

I could identify with almost everything listed.

[Libertyfirst]

11. When I was eleven my family was living in an unheated apartment,

During the day we would move around to stay warm. But the cold at night was the most miserable I have ever been.We had only a sheet and a thin sheet blanket. Then a neighbor heard my little brother crying because he was cold. She came over and when she learned our situation she went back to her apartment and brought us several very, very heavy quilts. I slept warm that night for the first time in two weeks. That lady is to this day, my idea of an angel, and if there is a heaven she belongs there. And I have never been that cold again. I have been hungry, but the cold that sets in your bones is the worse.

Even today, I can not stand air conditioning because it is cold. I carry a blanket and jacket in my car even in the hottest of weather. I go outside in the winter only if I really have to. All year long I buy blankets and coats (esp.kids) at yard sales and flea markets (sometimes only pay 50 cents and sometimes folks donate them), have them cleaned at the 2.00 cleaners and donate them in the fall to charities that distribute them to those who need them. I don't remember who it was that said we can't save all the children, but perhaps we can save one. I'll tell you this, you don't have to be wealthy to help people keep warm. And after reading this post, I'm going to add sleeping bags to the coats and blankets I collect. If we are lucky enough to have a few dollars to spare, we need to help people eat and stay warm. This year I had twenty-five heavy blankets and thirty-five coats. That is not a lot, but it helps.

[awoke_in_2003]

80. "but it helps"

Yes, it does. And as someone who grew up poor, I thank you.

[Number23]

12. "There is so much people take for granted who are not poor."

Truer words have never been said.

Kicked and a rec too.

[vadawg]

14. American poor take for granted stuff

that to the poor of other nations would be luxuries. Dont get me wrong its sad that anyone goes without, but when i look at the poor here, their lot is much better than what ive seen.

[originalpckelly]

16. Wrong way of looking at it.

What's going on here is bad, and no one should have to go through.
What's going on around the world is bad, and no one should have to go through that.

To bring this up is to delegitimize the suffering of American poverty, when it is as hope crushing and mind numbing. Perhaps even more so, because you see all these other people who have more, and you wonder why you weren't lucky enough to have that.

[vadawg]

17. sorry i disagree with you, its only hope crushing

and mindnumbing because everyone tells you it is. I am sorry if that sounds crass and mayby it is but if you think poverty here is anywere near the levels others suffer then your nuts. As to seeing others having more and you not being lucky, that is the problem i see in america, everything is about what others have and thinking that you have been unlucky or cheated out of something, thats not the way to live and to get yourself out of the situation you find yourself.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. America's "poor" would be "lucky" compared to the poor of the Third World

ONLY if they could pay Third World prices for everything. That's why Americans like to retire to Central America--low cost of living if you have a North American income.

[vadawg]

20. lol you think the poor in other countries actually have money

this is the disconnect between america and other countries. The poor in other parts of the planet dont have cash, they grow, make, barter for stuff. So yes im sorry but americas poor do well compared to the poor of other nations.

[undergroundpanther]

22. Depends

Because in some countries it never gets below freezing there.That helps you survive.It really DOES.
In America poverty is legislated. One example: Is ZONING and public Property/land use laws especially in that uniquely AMERICAN isolating idiocy of land use called suburbian sprawl.Here the poor among the ones who still have jobs,who get stranded out here..They can't raise a few chickens IN THEIR OWN FRIGGIN YARD or have a cow, it isn't ZONED for that.. or in some cases like in fucking apartments people can't even grow a decent garden because the asshole rich landlord prefers a golf course of grass that nobody can eat..

Neighbors are not aware or don't give a shit about the invisible poor next door.Especiially if it is in the hell of sprawl,You are invisible..Until YOU get a few chickens to survive,or start up a garden add fruit trees or berry bushes then they neighbors you never met come out and have a conniption over it.It's noisy, It invites Rats!!Eek,The deer,skunks raccoons,they are OUT THERE and they are trying to get in MY house!! Don't forget all the birds leaving purple turds on my precious mercedes from all the berries in YOUR thicket etc etc. And of course the wealthier than thou who win the snooty zoning boards over every time.

Poverty sucks whether it is over here or over there it just sucks in different ways. Ask a homeless person about starvation.And all of a sudden it's like the third world right here, only COLDER.

[vadawg]

31. what you think there are not poorer people in colder climes

you are showing your complete lack of grasping where poor people in the world exist. Do you honestly believe that all the poor people live in hot climes, try living in a sub artic climate in poverty all year round. Once again i see in your post the belief that the world has dealt you a cruel hand, that only if people would be kinder to you and let you use your garden in any way you choose. Try spending your whole life outside, never having a house, having to move on every few weeks then get back to me about how hard life is in poverty in the US.

[undergroundpanther]

32. No

I am saying poverty hurts everywhere it happens. I am saying poverty over there hurts and over here it hurts.Minimizing Americans who are homeless and freezing does not help the starving starve any less in other countries.Minimizing the starving in other countries does nothing to help the homeless here unfreeze.

It ALL hurts was what I was trying to say.I just refuse to pull out a measuring stick of suffering to measure which poor in which countries deserves more compassion, or help than the others who suffer too, that's all.Because all suffering people deserve compassion .Compassion is not an earned thing based on the opinions of comfy observers regardless of locale,Poverty is poverty.It sucks.

[vadawg]

34. it sucks, but it aint torture.

If you think it is then you havent suffered either torture or real poverty, because given the choice id take poverty any day.

[undergroundpanther]

36. I have been tortured

Look up the drug Anectine. Read about what it does.
And I am poor.
Get over yourself.

[vadawg]

38. Okay you have no idea what torture is if you think

side effects of a drug are torture. yeah poor with internet connection, try selling that one around the world.

[awoke_in_2003]

82. I am gonna break...

a DU rule, and call you a shit head. We are the richest nation in the world, yet we have people who starve to death EVERY SINGLE DAY. Your ignorance stupefies me.

[vadawg]

83. and your welcome to call me a shithead, but i think

your wrong, i just disagree with the OP and ill stand by my statements.

[undergroundpanther]

35. About cruel hands

I didn't create reality to be this way for poor in America or poor in wherever else.

As for the gardens stuff Be aware I was using that as ILLUSTRATIONS for some of the more idiotic types of barriers to self sufficiency that exist in America that poor over here sometimes deal with..
Also You assume alot about me, be honest you never met me.So what do you know? Your replies drip with resentment that you are obviously projecting on me.

Hunny has life dealt YOU a cruel hand?
Well deal with it.That's what you advise American poor to do.
So you can do it too.Quit projecting.It's annoying.And BTW you are crass and callous.No wonder you fail to get my point. Go away.

[vadawg]

37. lol go away, is that the best you can do

what do you want a discussion, or people to look at you as a martyr and hang on your every word. You stated that poverty was torture, i am just simply telling you it isnt, its not anything like torture. Life dealt me a cruel hand, mayby, i sure as hell would believe it if i had your mindset, but life is what you make of it and ive done a lot with mine and i no longer sleep under the stars every night. You have no idea of what real poverty is, especially if you live in Maryland, lol its hardly downtown Sarajevo, or Albania, or the Congo. Mayby you are for real, but mayby your a poverty pimp i dont know and your right i dont care.

[LaurenG]

64. Not nice and since you don't know UndergroundP maybe you should wait to pass judgment

And yes poverty is a form of torture, especially when the rest of the world seems to be warm and safe. It's all relative. :eyes:

typo

[juno jones]

40. I have. At least I have had a car or a tent.

So does having impromtu shelter constitute third or first world? For the record the van was an elderly ninteenseventy slant six dodge, not exactly the apex of insulation nor comfort.

I am watching tent cities growing in the woods next to strip malls and grocery stores. It's below freezing here at night.

It's bad out there and many of us are a proverbial paycheck away.

[vadawg]

41. not poor at the moment, but until i came to america

i was poor, i would even say i was poor my 15 years in the army, but at least they fed me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. And America's poor mostly can't grow their own food

because they have no space to do so, and they can't make their own stuff because the skills have been lost. If a person runs out of food at the end of the month, they run out of food, and if they can't afford to buy clothes for their growing child, they can't afford it, whether they're in Bangladesh or the Bronx. At least in tropical countries, children can get by with just a pair of shorts.

You sound like John Stossel, who thinks that America's poor have nothing to complain about because they have DVD players.

[Tsiyu]

78. WHAT???????

the poor in THIS country don't have cash, vadawg. I don't know what reality you live in now, but you need to understand that the poor in America are just as cash-poor as anyone these days.

I can't believe you said that in all seriousness. Or that you think every American has a home. Holy hell. Homeless is homeless whether it's in San Paulo or San Diego. But cold is cold whether you're in your car or in an unheated house.

you're like the guy who says "Quit complaining about your cancer, mine was worse than that!" Pain is pain, and I'll bet if we put you back to where you were you would claim it was a form of torture in your moment of suffering.

Get over yourself; you sound like the one who wants to be the martyr here.

[vadawg]

84. difference is i dont equate being poor with torture

Its a leap only people who live in a country like america would make, As to putting me back to were i was, hell i still go back as often as i can, i may have a house now but you will find me more often than not sleeping outside so i dont think thats a good analogy. As to me being the martyr, im not the one who blames everything thats wrong with my life on other people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. Each individual in the United States contributes $48,000 to our national product.

With a GDP per capita of that size, it is unnecessary for people to be forced to go without life necessities. Our problem is fairness. The problem in other countries is something else.

[undergroundpanther]

33. No you are not sorry for being crass

You would have not offered your faux apology as if it would make up for your callousness about poor americans if you really cared about them.
You appear to me to be just another self righteous resentful middle class college kid hell bent on judging how much someone deserves help or compassion,a justification hierarchy based in your arbitrary definitions of how bad it is for someone else that you do not really know or seem to care to know..

Go over to the third world than, help them,Don't stay here in American comforts,Put your actions where your mouth is, go over there and save them, give them food ,Empty your fridge and pantry too DO it yourself!..

But do not consider yourself "noble" when you minimize the suffering of poor people over here because of your little attitude about why you think Americans are poor enough to suffer or why you think the poor here are not suffering. That's just being an asshole..And that is why you put on the fake apology you were crass on purpose because you wanted to be an asshole and not be called on it.Be honest.You are a bigot.

Poverty sucks ANYWHERE it is.

[vadawg]

39. Now i think your projecting.

And ill stand by my statement, you have no idea what real poverty is about. College, hell i never had any schooling past the age of 10 and i would never call my upbringing middle class though i guess that some would think we were rich comparetively, but you have no idea and i stand by my remarks.

[Fireweed247]

52. what would be more helpful...

would be for you to share your story of poverty. Please don't attack the Op for sharing their story.

[vadawg]

72. my story is not interesting, but here goes

ill share some, i never lived in a house until i was 16 and joined the army, never had a fixed abode until i came to america. Never really went to school but was taught by my parents and extended family. Never lived in any one place longer than a couple of months and we moved with the seasons. We lived in a true black economy, no benefits, no healthcare, no contact with the government other than the old bill. All the money we had was from selling shit we ahem found. We ate well in makerel season and herring season, we wintered in sunnier climes. So i do understand poverty and the way society treats you, but heres my but and its a big one, there is nothing on this earth that can force you to accept that poverty, theres always a way out of it whether legal or illegal and whilst your in that poverty its hard but its nothing like torture, yes you can be cold, hungary or sick but this is what humans are bred for, we can survive and flourish in the harshest of environs if there is a will.

[byrok]

59. Thanks for your "concern". n/t

[undergroundpanther]

25. Wake upThirty-one million Americans now live in hunger..

People DO starve in America.Not only kids but adults too.. they freeze and die of easy to cure diseases. Just like people do in the 3rd world, But in America, it is hidden from the public.


The effects of poverty over HERE,Different causes of death all hurt just as bad as anywhere else poverty is..
A new HUD study, released March 2008, indicated that an
estimated 1,150,000 persons in the U.S. used emergency shelter or
transitional housing at some time during a six month period from
January to June of 2006. Were these one million, one hundred,
and fifty thousand people just a bunch of street bums?

http://www.homelessamerican.com/hazards.html
http://www.nypirg.org/homeless/facts.html
http://www.geocities.com/nhutbp2001/memorialnames.html
An example of legislation making poverty worse
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/us/28homeless.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[Romulox]

44. Hey look! It's a "compassionate conservative". And here on our board! NT

[gollygee]

49. Oh, yeah, they're so ungrateful

They don't suffer nearly enough.

:puke:

I hate hate hate when people compare different kinds of suffering in an effort to minimize the suffering of one group.

[spoony]

61. Hunger is hunger the world over.

And so is cold. The homeless and poor freezing to death here are not less cold because they are Americans.

[mntleo2]

70. Uhhh if you don't have money you are WORSE off than ...

...even third world countries. I have friends from other parts of the world. Not only did my Somalian friends live in dire poverty, they were raped, tortured, enslaved, beaten, treated as subhuman beings. I have South American friends who fled their countries during the Sanctuary times, treated much the same as my Somalian friends. I have friends who lived in Asia who also fled regimes that would have killed them in many ways from starvation to torture. All of them will tell you poverty in America is WORSE than it is in their own countries.

Here's why:

1. Their indigenous populations are still living in the forests and other places. They can (and do) teach people who have fled the cities how to live. America's natives are three or four generations removed from living that way and live on reservations in situations far removed from the thousands of years they used to live.

2. Food grows wild where they can get it, and the indigenous people know what food is and is not. There is no place where the poor can go to get that kind of food in America. In a National forest, they would be chased out and the rest of the forests and open spaces are privately owned property where "camping" is not allowed and they would be prosecuted for "removing public property."

3. Shelter can easily be built and lived in in other parts of the world but not in America where fire is used, the most used way of keeping warm and cooking ~ also taught by indigenous folks who know that materials to use.

4. American poor in order to cook and keep warm are not allowed to simply make a fire because it is often illegal and their dwellings do not have anyplace to have a fire and if there IS a fireplace, it is not made to cook upon. So the only way to prepare food is on a stove, and the only way to keep warm is with a heater or furnace.

5. American food is not easily home grown anymore IF you had the property to grow it, which almost all poor do not. While many cities are using open space for community gardens, there is not enough room to feed an entire family for a year in the plots they divide ~ besides which, most Americans do not even know how to grow their own food, but even if they did know how ~ where?

6. Game and meat is nice to have ~ if you have a place to dry it or store it by canning or freezing, which most poor do not. But game is scarce in this country now, even if you could afford the guns and licenses to hunt with ~ or go the vast distances to get there. As for buying domestic meat by bulk, forget it, it is not affordable to pay that much money at once.

7. American poor are forced to live the standards of living that upper income people pay because there are few alternatives. To get to work, they need to travel by some kind of gas driven vehicle and all cost a great deal. Public transportation while it is more affordable, it is also time consuming, taking up to 4 and 5 hours a day in travel to and from work and childcare.

8. Oh and about childcare: most children in other parts of the world have extended families who they live with and who live more than one generation in the home. Thus, rather than lose time and wages, if a kid is sick, Grandma, Auntie, Uncle, Grandpa or Cousin, will always be available to take care of them while their parents work. This kind of living is not even allowed in low income housing. Besides that, extended families are scattered all over the country and are no longer available to help with the children. Not only does this create a family-based support group, but the pooling of incomes often leads to a higher standard of living.

9. Because of the way our homes are designed, in order to prepare meals and keep warm, they have no other way. This cost is a huge cost and hole in their budgets, so my friends from the other parts of the world tell me.

American customs and ways of living is *not* "more civilized" it is actually brutal as it takes a huge toll on family needs and as my immigrant friends will tell you (many who themselves and their kids wound up on American streets), it makes life far worse because you have little ways to adjust or few places to look to feed and house your family or yourself when there is a lack of affordable food, housing and energy. It merely means you have to choose one of those and forgo the other when you are poor.

Hopes this helps you realize why American poverty is in many ways worse than third world countries.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[wildflower]

76. "This kind of living is not even allowed in low income housing..."

What you wrote here is a good point, that it's not generally allowed here.

8. Oh and about childcare: most children in other parts of the world have extended families who they live with and who live more than one generation in the home. Thus, rather than lose time and wages, if a kid is sick, Grandma, Auntie, Uncle, Grandpa or Cousin, will always be available to take care of them while their parents work. This kind of living is not even allowed in low income housing. Besides that, extended families are scattered all over the country and are no longer available to help with the children. Not only does this create a family-based support group, but the pooling of incomes often leads to a higher standard of living.

[mntleo2]

85. Yes and it has been as lifesaver for ...

...immigrant friends who often pool their incomes and live this way in order to survive our customs and economy. Life is much easier when you have a support base that helps with the everyday problems and expenses. Such as having ready childcare, and support for low income jobs, since most of them are "when you don't work, you don't get paid." Because of the lack of paid sick leave that allows children as a reason to take off work, not showing for childcare issues is often the reason many women without this support, cannot hold down a job. Also transportation. Often the families will pool their incomes and buy a decent car that can get them to and from work sites and it is much more affordable. If you are driving an old car that keeps breaking down without anyone to call and help you with it, or do not have even the slow and sporadic public transportation to get your children to daycare and you to work (and transportation is a VERY common inner city and rural problem). Food preparation for a larger group can also be cheaper and helpful to the budget ~ if you have someone at home who can take the time-consuming and often cheaper way to feed a large family.

Cat

[lonestarnot]

13. It is nothing but!

[originalpckelly]

15. Agreed, it really is torture. Just ask yourselves one question:

If you stop working tomorrow, will you be OK?

The people who own this country can do that, and they wouldn't have to worry for the rest of their lives. The lucky of us who are retired still have to worry if things go wrong, even people with millions of dollars can blow it (think MC Hammer.) But when you get to billions, it's extremely hard to blow that.

Billionaires are the ones who really own this country, these modern day robber barons must be stopped, for they are not capable of knowing how to plan their investments. Our nation is no better than the Soviet Union.

[K8-EEE]

21. Yikes! i guess in one way it's easier to be broke here in L.A.

30's is about as cold as it gets usually....I really never think about that, how it would be to be that cold, how to plan the cost of heat etc. Thanks for this.

HOPE YOU'RE ALL COZY NOW!

[undergroundpanther]

30. Eh warm enough

I keep it around 55 to 60 degrees in here.Want to make the oil last.

[Romulox]

45. I got to know several homeless men a few years back. They would winter in LA, LV, Fla.

and come back to Michigan in the Summers (why, I'm not entirely sure. Probably family.)

[Fireweed247]

24. Thank you for telling your story.

I'm so glad you had a small miracle to get you through it.

What is wrong with that oil company? How do people lose their compassion? How can anyone live with themselves when they treat people like that? I hope the power company and employees that let that poor 93 year old man die are taking a long hard look in the mirror. 93! He made it to 93 only to die like that. As Michael Moore asks "Who are we?"

[undergroundpanther]

27. America has become a narcissist fantasy land

Where me first rules and fuck everyone else for existing,and keep your suffering away from ME..Mememeeeee.
I Think this culture has made people in general become less pro-social.Less socially cohesive people are easier to manipulate ,control and sell shit to.

Strange I read a survey somewhere (wish I could find it again)where it said only like 25% of Americans have 1 deep freindship,less than 15% reported as having more than one deep lasting freindship,sadly the biggest number of people reported having NO close freindships.

And I know most will scoff but this gradual change to our culture becoming less pro social? It has been engineered,legislated,.For more profits.
Check out The Way We Never Were by Stephanie Koonts

check these links
http://www.ranadasgupta.com/texts.asp?text_id=19
A paradox of our system of economics is that although this tendency is disasterous for the individuals concerned it is great for economic 'progress'.
http://www.altruists.org/ideas/society/consumerism/
http://ponerology.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-societies-regress-to-become.html

This site is good too.
http://www.globalissues.org/article/236/creating-the-consumer

[Fireweed247]

55. Thanks for the links

:hi:

[Liberal_in_LA]

26. Gosh. What a story! Living in CA I've never experienced that kind of cold. And when it gets hot

, up to 117 in the summer, it's dry heat, not the killer humidity they get in the midwest.

[undergroundpanther]

29. Marlyand gets all the shitty weather

Cold as fuck in the winter,especially in Late December January to February,Sometimes as Early as October we get below freezing a few days.It's humid sticky killer heat in summer From late May/June to Early September, it's a 97 to 105 degree steam bath.I HATE Maryland weather,it sucks for most the year.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

42. K&R. Yes indeed I agree.

A cruel and entirely unnecessary torture.
Especially in view of the extreme excess displayed by so many in this culture.

And particularly in view of the fact that if what is available was shared with a proper thought for the well being of all none in this world would need to be subjected to poverty.

There IS enough of what humans require to "go around" and MUCH more than enough hands to perform those tasks necessary to make it go around.

[Vinca]

46. That should be mandatory reading for everyone elected to govern. nt

[bunnies]

48. Me & mr. bunnies went without heat for an entire winter a few years back...

in NH - in sub-zero temperatures. We boiled water for 'baths' and used a space heater for warmth. Plus, the house our apartment is in is several hundred years old with many of the original windows. In other words, cold as hell.

Maybe because we dealt with it for *so* long we were able to deal with it better than you. We went 9 months total without heat or hot water at all. And I'm sorry, the way we had to live our life definitely sucked... but I would NEVER be inclined to call our frozen winter "torture".

[Fireweed247]

53. Having another person to snuggle with at night...

sure helps keep a person much warmer!

Dying a slow death due to freezing certainly is torture. In fact, freezing prisoners is one of the Bush Administration's methods of torture.

[undergroundpanther]

77. It is torture

when you lack the knowledge,endurance/health or means to cope with the cold.In my OP notice I said it was MY FIRST run in with Poverty and cold.
My hands ached,my fingers hurt, My feet,my nose,and at times it would go numb. For me it was torturous. I was turning on the light scared of frostbite.
But than again you are more used to extreme cold,you had an ability acclimated to cold, to cope that I did not have . I was not acclimated as it was an EARLY cold snap..It takes bodies time to get used to temperature changes.
Someone used to warm climates would have been very tortured by the cold they are not acclimated to.

[Pryderi]

51. Try having an abcess tooth with no money and no insurance.

[undergroundpanther]

75. I had an abcessed tooth

but mine came from a microscopic crack in the tooth. I had no clue it was there. it didn't have symptoms for a long time.But the nerve was dead,so I had no idea it was infected until I got something like a boil on my gum above my tooth that would fill with pus.I'd "pop"the zit,making sure none of the pus got in my mouth.Than I'd peroxide it.It was pointless the infection was untouchable.During this time I got strep throat 4 times..Than it hurt ,bad. Anyway I have medical assistance,their solution to any tooth problem is to yank it out. Now you know why poor people on disability or welfare really have no teeth.It's not from never brushing them(meth mouth not included here)This tooth couldn't be saved tho. If I lose another one,eating will be harder and I have one tooth out in a crucial spot for chewing,Don't have enough teeth missing to get dentures yet.
I hope you can get help.Try looking for a dental school around where you live.When I had no insurance I went to a dental school it's not a horror show.And it is a HELLUVA lot cheaper than a dentist.

[pacalo]

56. Your story is heart-wrenching.

Down here in the South, everyone has central air-conditioning & heat. Why is it that northerners don't do the same?

[provis99]

60. everyone in the South?

I can't remember anyone in my old neighborhoods in Mississippi who had either central air or heat. In summer, you stayed cool by moving slower, and in winter, you just had to put up with the above-ground water pipes bursting from time to time from the cold. The people who did the best in staying comfortable were the ones who lived in roadside gullies, since it trapped the air around their place and acted as insulation.

[pacalo]

66. Okay...strike out "everyone".

I'm wondering why northerners ("in general") don't have central air & heat? Heating oil seems very expensive & not as efficient.

[NOLALady]

62. Everyone in the South

does not have central air and heat. Not in this part of the South.

New construction has central air and heat, but we still have many who live in older homes.

[tooeyeten]

65. No they don't

In older neighborhoods, you'll find heaters, and maybe ceiling fans, and why in the summer, you find seniors sitting out on their stoops, because they don't have a/c.

A/C is a luxury to most of these people. But it must be an age or experience thing, that you don't know that.

[pacalo]

71. I'm probably older than you, dear.

And welcome to DU.

[AtomTan]

58. So often I dwell on how little I have in the world

It's such a cliche, but it's true: thanks for reminding me to be thankful for what I do have.

[Generic Other]

69. How come no one ever turns on the oven?

My oven kept me warm more than once in my life. Course I do not live in a cold area. Pacific northwest has milder winters. I guess I would try moving my mattress into the kitchen to stay warm if at all an option.

I hear your stories of pain and poverty and shiver. And it scares me because it seems so obvious that it could happen to any of us at any time. The wolf always at someone's door. A constant and grinding struggle for survival.

The fact that this kind of need exists in this country at all is a disgrace and a crime. They have taxed us all and nearly bled many people dry, yet this is the best they can do for us in return. Not much progress since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution. The destitute and the downtrodden.

I hope conditions are not so dire for you today undergroundpanther. I wish you warm weather and a bountiful garden.

[BartMang]

73. Wow.

The economic inequality in this country is undeniable and unacceptable however people still find foolish and greedy reasons to justify it.

[acmavm]

74. Of course it it. The feeling of an empty stomach. Nothing quite like that

and if you're watching little kids go without, listen to them cry and whine because they're hungry, and know that no excuse will make it any better, that's one of a parent's worst nightmares. That's torture.

Or if your mom was lucky enough to score milk off the milkman and she had a can of tomatos, why there was homemade tomatoe soup. Of course, no utilities because there was no money and no family members gave a damn, so you lived by candle and cooked on a barbecue grill. Little woman outside in the yard stirring milk into a pan to make tomato soup. For a kid, the embarrassment will kill ya. The neighbor kids see what's going on, and they tease you about it. And cooking soup (or oatmeal or fried potatoes) out in the yard, well there was a source for a lot of joke material for some of the neighborhoods bigger assholes. And I know now that it wasn't much better for the person outside in the yard making the 'soup'. The knowledge that the situation is bad and is getting worse, that's torture for everyone old enough to realize how bad the things really are. And when nothing works, when nothing or no one seems to care, that's torture.

And that shit was nothing, a piece of cake compared to when the landlord had all your shit put out on the street and you had no where to go. I can tell you first fucking hand, the fear and insecurity and embarrassment and shame IS TORTURE, EVEN FOR KIDS.

Some people here need their asses kicked and their heads examined. In that order.

[Cleita]

81. So sorry you are in such dire straits panther.

I wish I could help all of you and I really could spit on those who ignore your plight and that of those like you and do nothing.