Women: Is it time to stop the Ms./Mrs. bullshit?

[originalpckelly]

I consider myself polite, although as you can tell, I'm not very humble. I like to use the appropriate honorific when addressing someone. Why the fuck should I have to ask if someone is married? That's pretty fucking insane, and it's a really possessive thing. And why should women change their last names to their husbands'?

Now, I'm a guy, so I shouldn't have say in this, but it does seem like women would get pissed at this too. Do you all feel it's a possessive type thing going on here?

[kickysnana]

1. I am no longer a MIss or a Mrs, so what do you propose to call me? n/t

[timtom]

61. "Toots"?

Just wondering.

<Edited to add>

Oops. Just reread your post with a more discerning eye.

"Ms"?

[lightningandsnow]

2. Yeah.

I don't like the idea of changing one's name to their partner's. If I have a long term partner, I'm partnered with them, not their property!

Maybe this is why I don't ever want to get married. The idea of "merging", losing your own identity, creeps me out just a bit.

[originalpckelly]

4. And what about the gays?

Will I have to change my name and become a misters? :P

[polmaven]

14. There are not very many of us

who think this is important. When a woman marries, why does she become an extension of her husband? His property, so to speak.

I have often said that, if I were to marry, I would not have taken my husband's name.

The other thing that really bugs me is.....why are children automatically given their fathers' last names? What have the men done to make the children more theirs than the womens? All HE has done is fertilize. The baby grew in HER womb, was fed by HER, grew to being because of HER! What did HE do?

Don't get me started, 'cause I can go on some real rants, sometimes! AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!


:banghead:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. But they aren't

I personally think it should be a matter of choice. I chose to change my name, and I don't care what title is used. My neice, on the other hand, insisted that she keep her birth name--and her husband took it as well. Their three daughters all have their mother's birth surname. Many a folk around where I live (in Arkansas of all places!) have also gone against convention and the woman has kept her birth surname. In Arkansas, btw, a married woman's driver's license has as her second name her birth surname.

[fed_up_mother]

34. I prefer changing my name & having the same last name as my kids

I don't feel like I lost any of my identity in the process. :)

If I'd had the type of professional career that depended on name recognition, I would have probably hyphenated our last names for business purposes.

[ima_sinnic]

86. I was married for fifteen years and never once used my husband's name

-- you are free to retain your own name. The IRS had a small problem with it, but a short phone call atraightened it out.

[demnan]

3. That's why Ms. was invented

Because women didn't want to be Miss or Mrs.

I prefer Ms.

[originalpckelly]

7. Holy crap!

I went around all these years not knowing that. Figures, I'm a guy!

I can't be the only one who thinks Ms. is a contraction of Miss. I think I remember that from school, maybe I just had stupid teachers?

[JVS]

9. DUH!

[originalpckelly]

10. But we don't say it that way.

I've never heard anyone called mistress, but Ms. is a contraction of that.

WTF? Why can't it just be Mistress all the time, eh?

[ima_sinnic]

99. Mrs. is a contraction or abbreviation of "mistress"--Ms. is not a contraction of anything

[Quantess]

That would be pretty cheeky to go around to women you don't know, saying "hello, mistress!"

Can you imagine approaching strange women, and saying, "excuse me, mistress!"
:rofl:

[Jackpine Radical]

17. It was beaten into my thick skull back in about 1970

that Ms, pronounced "Miz," was a generic female honorific that did not specify marital status. You know--like Ms Magazine.

[bananas]

24. There was nothing wrong with "Ma'am"

There was no reason to create a new word with no vowels.

[defendandprotect]

35. Of course, there is a lot wrong with "Ma'am" and ....

it's the equivalent of calling a male an "old fogey" ---

Those who were taught that it is some form of politeness need to rethink it --

And, when addressed that way, refer to the other person as "Ma'am" . . .

you'll see the reaction.

Even if male ... they'll say, "I'm not a Ma'am" --

Of course not, and neither am I!

[dixiegrrrrl]

59. U R not from the South I take it?

Well mannered people know it is polite to call someone "Ma'am".......
Yes "m'am" and "No, m'am" ( and sir to men) is 100% normal here,

If you know a woman on a casual informal basis, and she is older than you , then you can call her by her first name as "Mz. Sally"
but always refer TO her in the 3rd person as "Mz. Jones".

We had the Mz thing down for years and years before an magazine came out.

Lastly, it is up to me to inform people who do not know how I want to be addressed.

And I kept m own last name, which drives folks crazy down here.

[liberalpress]

88. Points to you for Politeness Ma'am...

...it's in short supply around here.

[Raskolnik]

121. No, it isn't.

If it offends you, you may want to consider that the problem may lie with you on this one.

[ima_sinnic]

89. so you would address an envelope to Ma'am Michelle Obama,

or Ma'am Rachel Maddow?

I think not.

There WAS a need for something other than Mrs. or "Miss." Ms. is neutral as to marital status and is a perfect complement to Mr.

[csziggy]

79. I seem to remember that "Miz" was a Southern tradition if you did not know the marital status

I had several "old maid" schoolteachers that were 60 or older - one was finally forced to retire when she turned 85 - and we called them all "Miz" Doe. People of their same generation that were not friends often called them "Miz" Jane. Now that I am getting 'to that age' a lot of younger men that worked on my house call me 'Miz' Anne even after I asked them to just call me by my first name. Of course, I confused a lot of the traditionalists since I am a classic "Ms." I am married but never used my husband's name even after 30+ years of marriage.

I do agree with people who think the parents' name should match the children's. In the 50's and 60's I had friends whose mother had been widowed twice and divorced once and had one child by each husband. Each child had the surname of their father. As a child, this was extremely confusing, especially when the mother married for the fourth time and took her new husband's name. And sometimes the kids lived with their maternal grandmother, who had another surname.... :crazy:

[WolverineDG]

20. It's a contraction of both "Miss" & "Mrs" nt

[hlthe2b]

22. I wondered why you were complaining about Ms.

It is the obvious answer and is sensitive to all women.... Yet your original post had me seething. I'm glad to know (albeit shocked) that it was because you didn't understand why it was used. :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. Wow. That was an Emily Litella moment.

Never mind.

[JerseygirlCT]

71. Really?

Wow. That surprises me, really.

[Blue_In_AK]

83. Really? You didn't know that?

Wow.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. After spending some time in the south, I sort of like their approach

for social situations. "Miss Lady's first Name" or "Mr. Man's first name". Even used by children. Works great, totally acceptable at all levels and age groups. Solves a lot of honorific nonsense. It still gets a few odd looks in California.

[fed_up_mother]

37. Yeah, I really like that tradition

We have some real crappy ones in the south, but that isn't one of them.

As a child, all of my parents' friends were "Miss Elaine," "Miss Michelle," "Miss Claire," "Mr. Harry," "Mr. Chris" when we were growing up. And even as adults we honor our elderly like that.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. I still use it today

When I inquire about a friend and colleagues wife who is undergoing chemo, I refer to her as Miss Susan, and so on.

Actually had someone at the college claim it was sexist. I tried to explain the tradition and the respect that goes with it to no avail. Something about if it wasn't Ms it was sexist. *sigh*

[Runcible Spoon]

63. when I was teaching in a University in the South, that's how most addressed me

I really liked it, since it also solved the problem that technically I shouldn't be called professor or doctor since I wasn't a full-fledged PhD, I was not more than 5 or 6 years older than most of the students, and they didn't have to wonder if I was married or not. As a native NYer, I quite liked it and thought it cute.

[JerseygirlCT]

72. I'd rather just be addressed by my first name, personally

That "Miss" part is strange to me. But I'm a northerner, so I'm not really used to it - except with some kids whose parents seem to want them to address me that way.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

84. Think of Pres. Carter's mother who was universally referred to as

Miss Lillian. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillian_Gordy_Carter)Its that kind of thing. Polite and respectful, with *no* marital status connotations. Many of our northern friends found it amusing, given that my wife was Quebecois and I am from Hawaii.

I have friends who preferred to be addressed by the first names, even by young children. We always accommodated them. It was also a good lesson to my children about being respectful of others' desires, even if it is in conflict with what you normally do.

[JerseygirlCT]

105. That's my view, too

Although I don't argue with neighbors/friends who insist their kids use some sort of honorific when addressing me.

When it's my choice, just say my name, thanks.

It is trickier these days, though, I'll say that.

(Oh, and I understand the Miss thing; it's just that being Miss Firstname just makes me feel like I'm a preschool teacher, you know?)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

107. I have a PhD, so sometimes is was Mr and other times Dr.

Then the kids would want me to pull splinters or fix their dolls. Oh well.

When I read what Wiki had on Miss Lillian, it refreshed my memory of just how amazing she was...

[eridani]

126. Don't EVER be "Docror" on a plane

--if you are a doctor, but not THAT kind of doctor.

[Deja Q]

38. Seconded.

"Ms" was created, because a singular term to the equivalent of "Mr" was needed. Women otherwise have two designations for martial status, whereas men have but one. "Ms" being the more logical alternative to compounding the issue to give men another needless title.

There's an episode of "Maude" (1972) that had a mention of the "Ms" argument. It's good stuff.

[kskiska]

51. "Maude" covered a lot of issues

She was even allowed to choose whether to have an abortion after a late-life pregnancy, and decided on the abortion. That could never be shown on a prime-time sitcom today.

Regarding the Mr./Mrs./Ms. issue, future geneologists are going to have a nightmare trying to trace their families.

[morillon]

48. I agree.

I've never used "Mrs." for anything. It's "Ms." for me, and I consider addressing a woman as "Mrs." to be rude and hopelessly backward unless the woman herself uses the title. It's nobody's business whether I'm married or not.

[Quantess]

104. Not to mention presumptuous.

Assuming that you know someone's marital status is risky.
Or, how about addressing a letter to someone you have never seen, and you can't even tell by their name whether "Austin", "Jamie", or "Kim" is a man or a woman. That's tricky.

[PassingFair]

80. I prefer "Ms." as well.

I am a married woman who kept my "maiden" name...

[glowing]

5. No, I quite like to be addressed as Mrs. E....s, Especially by those younger

than myself. I'm 29, I expect that my son's little friends adress me in a polite way, like I expect him to address his friends moms. The reality is that you can choose how you'd like to be addressed. I like Mrs. and I chose to take my husbands last name.. the reality is that his last name is much easier than mine ever was, and I'm proud to take a part of my husband. It doesn't mean I'm any less liberal or care deeply about women's rights.. but sometimes a little old fashioned tradition feels ok.

[MineralMan]

6. Seems like a very minor issue to me.

If I don't know, I use Ms. It's that simple. If I know, I use the appropriate honorific. Why make it a problem?

[lynnertic]

8. You fucking consider yourself polite?

I like to use the appropriate honorific when addressing someone. Why the fuck should I have to ask if someone is married? That's pretty fucking insane, and it's a really possessive thing. And why should women change their last names to their husbands'?

Now, I'm a guy, so I shouldn't have say in this, but it does seem like women would get pissed at this too. Do you all feel it's a possessive type thing going on here?

What, are you drunk?

Ms. applies to women both married and single, and is pronounced with a hard 's' -- Mizz.

Miss is the appropriate honorific for a young woman or a girl.

Mrs. is the appropriate honorific for a woman who is married, and the Brits use 'Mrs.' for elderly women regardless of marital status.

So if you're really all that fucking worried about etiquette, use the Ms. until you find out more.

As for changing names upon marriage, it's the Woman's prerogative, and we usually take our husband's feelings into account when making the decision for ourselves.

On edit, for the benefit of the single girl upthread who's down on marriage:
I happen to think that my husband's last name rocks, and it goes very well with my first name, so I took it. He felt really happy for it, too. Furthermore I never thought it would be this way, but it feels fantastic to be a Mrs. and I love my husband's family. It's not a feeling of being property, but rather of being on a team full of outstanding people who I get to be proud of.

[originalpckelly]

11. A little drunk...

:P

PWI, that bloody Ms. Mary!

[lynnertic]

16. Party on

May I be the first to congratulate you on your choice of breakfast.

Peace! And thanks for the diversion!

:hippie: :smoke: :toast:

[originalpckelly]

25. Is it a bloody mary if you use V8?

:P

I figure, I'll be healthy and drunk off my ass at the same time. I really didn't think it was altering my posting much, but this is the second flub I've made this morning, so I'm beginning to think it is. Sorry for any errors in this post!

[lynnertic]

118. Yes. IMO it's the horseradish that defines the Bloody Mary.

BTW is V8 sweetened with high fructose corn syrup? I forgot, it's been awhile.

[dynasaw]

12. Why is this bullshit?

Both Miss and Mrs. designate a woman's status: Miss indicating she is unmarried (unshackled to a male) while Mrs. designates her as being a man's marital appendage--Mrs. John Smith, Mrs. Joe Blow, etc.

A man on the other hand by being designated "Mr" doesn't signal to society whether he's attached or not. Ms. was formulated to wipe out a woman's identity based on whether she belongs or doesn't belong to a man, i.e. women have the right to be their own person. End of history lesson. Learn the back story before mouthing off.

[originalpckelly]

13. Yep, but as I figured out in the posts above:

1. I'm feeling the effects of a mistress, bloody Mary.
2. We don't use language that way when speaking. We say Misses for Mrs, but not Mistress for Ms. which is what Ms. is that contraction of. And to complicate matters even more, I remember not too long ago my teachers calling themselves Miss blah blah and using the title Ms. SO WTF?

[originalpckelly]

15. That, I just found out we get fringe benefits, not French benefits.

:-(

But I like French.

[WolverineDG]

18. Ms/Mrs "bullshit"?

:grr:

It's none of your damn business if I'm married or not, so just use "Ms" as your default greeting.

dg

[hlthe2b]

23. EXACTLY

[bettyellen]

19. oh please it;s not that fucking difficult, when you're told the name you just use it, as is already.

whether it;s Ms Mrs or Dr or Jane just say it the way it was given to you. Easy.

[RC]

26. What's with the common sense here already?

Don't you feel the need to give yourself a heat attack over minor BS that should not matter much anyway? What's up with that? Remember where you are at, this is DU! At least throw a shoe or something. Cheeze...

[vanderBeth]

27. I like to be called Miss.

Just because. I don't mind if you call me Ms. and am not expecting you to use either in particular, but if I had to choose what to be addressed by, I would pick Miss (and I do if it is an option on something like a form). I won't get offended if you call me something unless it's Mr.

I know that some people don't like it because they don't like to to be titled according to whether they are married or not, etc., but growing up, neither had a "stigma" around it. I guess Miss meant a young lady and I seem to fit that description.

And I know that the woman taking her husband's last name comes from the woman becoming the man's "property", but that has nothing to do with my decision to take my husband's name (if I were to marry). I like the idea of doing it.

[JohnnyRingo]

28. I found it a useful address recently in it's original intent.

I wrote an email to Governor Ted Strickland's wife.
She's a columnist for The Plain Dealer, and her name is Connie Schultz. I couldn't use Mrs. Schultz because that's not her name, and I didn't want to sound so familiar as to call her Connie.

Ms. Shultz was the logical address in such a situation.

[Berry Cool]

67. Um, not really.

The proper nomenclature for her would be "Frances Strickland."

I have a feeling she's going to be amused, though, that someone confused her with Senator Sherrod Brown's wife.

[seabeyond]

29. i dont give the shit about mrs or ms or miss and if you made a mistake i wouldnt even think to

correct, but i imagine you would just use my first name. so few people mow a days uses mrs miss or ms, in my world anyway

and it is fine with me taking hubby name and as a family be united in name. so what

what is in a name

[notesdev]

30. just say ma'am

let them clarify if they please

[defendandprotect]

39. The point is, a female's status as married or not married is no one's business . . .!!

And, "Ma'am" is Okay only if you want to label a female as aged ---

Do we yet have an equivalent for that to insult males as "old fogeys" . . . ?

[Deja Q]

44. Well, if a male was to ask a female out on a date, then it becomes somebody's business...

:D

Unless we're going to dismantle marriage and let everybody shag each other anytime they wanted and hang anybody feeling jealous... :shrug:

Of course, the female would also have to be truthful in her response. Or should I have said, "Of course, the female would also have to be truthful in the response"?

In short, intellectualism gets needlessly convoluted at times.

[defendandprotect]

62. And, if the female wants to ask the guy out, how does she know if he's married . .. ???

Not from the term, "Mr." certainly . . .

So -- what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

"Ms" is as specific as it should get -- "Ms" and "Mr" tell us simply the gender.


And . . . both males and females sometimes rely on wedding rings?

I think what you should have said was . . .

"Have males always been truthful in their response to the question of

whether or not they are married?"


Unless we're going to dismantle marriage and let everybody shag each other anytime they wanted and hang anybody feeling jealous...

What we need to dismantle is patriarchy and organized patriarchal religions --
that would be a good beginning.

[Quantess]

74. Holy crap, I get called ma'am a lot. I had no idea I seem matronly and "aged".

Come to think of it, I addressed most female customers as ma'am when I was a salesperson. I figured that was better than "hey, lady".

What do you suggest as an alternative?

[defendandprotect]

85. "Ms" . . .if you know her last name . . . otherwise "Miss" . . .

What's the difference between a "Miss" and a "Ma'am" in your mind?




1. (often initial capital letter) a polite term of address to a woman, originally used only to a woman of rank or authority: Madam President; May I help you, madam?
2. the woman in charge of a household: Is the madam at home?
3. the woman in charge of a house of prostitution.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

87. I disgree with Ma'am being for older women

Its acceptable for any woman, and is respectful. Its usage is independent of marital status.

[defendandprotect]

90. You would call a 20 year old "Ma'am" ...??

1. a polite term of address to a woman, originally used only to a woman of rank or authority: Madam President; May I help you, madam?
2. the woman in charge of a household: Is the madam at home?
3. the woman in charge of a house of prostitution.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

96. I would and I have as in your definition #1.

In the situation of providing a service to a customer. That included being a sales clerk and a waiter.

Ma'am while being a contraction of Madam, but is use is still current while Madam is not in the US. It is now the functional equivalent of "Sir".

[Withywindle]

123. Yes, I've been called 'ma'am' in stores ever since I grew tits!

(Before that I occasionally got 'sir' 'cause I wore boys' clothes and had short hair as a child. Hee!)

I've never taken offense. I'm 39 now. Sometimes people ask me for ID in liquor stores and call me ma'am at the same time!


I think you've got some baggage associated with this that is uniquely your own.

[liberalpress]

91. A reminder of a post a bit upthread..

"Ma'am" is the female equivalent of "Sir." Age doesn't figure. Politeness and respect does. I neve call anyone I don't know by their first name unless the ask me to. Way I was raised, y'know.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. Agreed

There is no clarification since its usage is universal

[ima_sinnic]

93. the question isn't what to "say," it's how to address, say, a formal envelope

Ms. Michelle Obama is correct, as is Ms. Oprah Winfrey and Ms. Rachel Maddow.

Say you are applying for a job with a cover letter to "Sarah Jenkins," HR Director. You would address it to Ms. Sarah Jenkins, and begin, "Dear Ms. Jenkins"

"Ms." is simply the opposite of "Mr."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

116. It could be Dr. Michelle Obama and Dr. Rachel Maddow.

Michelle Obama has a law degree, which is a Juris Doctor, or Doctor of Jurisprudence, in English, so Dr. could be appropriate.

Rachel Maddow has a Ph.D. from Oxford University in England. I think over there they call it a D.Ph.
Doctor of Philosophy.


In the South, Ma'am is always appropriate when addressing a woman in person, especially if you are a salesperson. I'm quite used to this.

At Grandma'a house, I always had to say "Yes, ma'am" and "no, ma'am" to her.

[originalpckelly]

31. I love DU, but I drink a little.

:P

Sorry about this folks.

[supernova]

33. Glad you cleared that up

I thought this seemed uncharacteristic of you. :-)

Sincerely,

Ms Supernova :P

[JHB]

40. Let tha be a lesson to you...

:beer: and the InterTubes don't mix!

dron't dink and posT!

[surrealAmerican]

36. I may be alone in this, but I don't like the whole idea ...

... of using unearned titles for women or men. Why do we need them? I get calling someone "doctor", "professor", "senator", etc. They worked to earn that title. We don't really need titles that just show you've "achieved" a gender. It also leads to confusion when you don't know the gender of the person you are addressing. If we must have a title, it ought to be non-gender-specific.

[Deja Q]

42. Then I propose we nix all forms of written comunication

See, if I am talking to someone else, in this politically correct day and age, I don't even want to say one syllable that might be misinterpreted or perverted into something anti-_________. And, sadly, without a certain amount of labels, miscommunication happens. (though too many labels is equally idiotic, but I don't believe that's relevant right now...)


My whole response obviously being :sarcasm:, and some people don't have an issue with gender titles either.

I am now putting aside the sarcasm to get to the actual point:

In short, there's no panacea and sometimes people, especially myself, have to stop being so thin-skinned. Like I've been told by one or two here on DU, sometimes things are said as general statements and not outright attacks. I hope they've read this because they were right.

[ensho]

41. Ms was created to be equal with Mr.

Mr. doesn't let you know if the man is single or married.

neither does Ms.

Miss and Mrs. put a woman in a slot and everyone knows her status.

[Deja Q]

46. Ah, but they are gender specific. I think the phrase is "separate but equal".

:crazy:

[roody]

43. Just use Ms. and you will be polite.

[Vinca]

45. Call me Ms. or call me Mrs., I don't care. My pet peeve is

being addressed as Mrs. Robert Smith rather than Vinca Smith. Getting married doesn't mean you've agreed to give up your identity. To be fair, this practice seems to have waned over the years, although it's still found in some society pages.

[ShadesOfGrey]

54. Exactly how I feel about it. nt

[Quantess]

95. I wonder if polygamous Mormons have likewise stopped "Mrs. John Jones".

After all, there can only be so many "Mrs. John Joneses" in one household before the title is meaningless.

[noamnety]

47. I prefer Ms.

or, as I tell my students, just my first name is fine - it IS my name, and I've been answering to that for as long as I can remember.

[bread_and_roses]

49. Personally, I'd prefer if we all called each other "Citizen So & So" or some vaiant therof

I dislike honorifics of all sorts. I don't care what name people want to put on their "official" papers - take your husband's name, or your wife's name, or keep your "own" (which more than likely was your father's) or name yourself after some historical figure or rock star. Who cares? But our standard form of address to each other, seems to me, should be egalitarian and without designation of any sort of status.

[madmom]

50. I remember being asked one time "is it miss or mrs "and I replied

ms will work fine. I got "Oh you're one of those" I totally ignored the person after that.

[Greyhound]

76. As well you should.

I just learned on this thread that some people are not aware of it's origins and purpose.

I shouldn't be surprised, I suppose. If one starts tallying up all that we've lost, it gets really fucking depressing. A third generation is being born that has never known life before fascism.

[galaxy21]

56. I never really thought about it before

It's just a formality.

[CTyankee]

57. When I divorced my first husband, I didn't want his name any more

but professionally I was known by that name. When I remarried a few years later I felt I should take his name. I considered reverting to my birth name but I had no professional record with it (I stupidly married right out of college).

It's worked out ok but I wonder if I couldn't have done something different...

[galaxy21]

58. A lot of divorced women keep their husband's name if they like it better

I remember Abby from ER was divorced, but kept the name lockhart because she thought it sounded nicer than her maiden name.

[CTyankee]

64. NO WAY would I keep that bastard's name! NO WAY!

I wanted nothing to do with him. The fact that he is always hanging out at my dtr's house with the grandkids when I want to visit has made me livid. I can't stand the thought of this guy. Plus, my husband would be hurt if I kept the old name. He would be ok if I took back my birth name, tho. He is not a sexist.

Sorry, I think of my ex and teeter on the edge of a rant...

[southernyankeebelle]

60. Married

Well before I was married I never gave it a thought. After I got married and took my husband's name than I did think about. I have a very nice married name and have been married 30 yrs. However, we come from different backgrounds. I feel I lost a little of my ethnic background. Because I married a man with an Irish name people assume am Irish. But he was adopted and brought to the states. Neither one of us are Irish. He often thinks But I don't agree with that. Now I express my nationality and my husbands when someone says so your Irish. I am not against the Irish I happen to like the Irish.

[Dulcinea]

65. It's a matter of personal choice.

I took my husband's name when we got married. It was no big deal to me one way or the other, but it mattered to him! I answer to Mrs. or Ms., but prefer Ms.

"Mrs. (Hubbyname)" was my mother-in-law!

We both have ethnic names, so hyphenating was out of the question. If I had become famous with my own name, I would have kept it.

I know women who have made many different choices, and everyone seems happy. Isn't that how it should be?

Peace.

[dana_b]

66. well, if we're going to worry about this..

then why is it that children always take their father's last name? What's wrong with mom's last name?

BTW - my daughter has MY last name.

[ScreamingMeemie]

68. You know what really steams my veggies? The fact that people address

me as "Ms." now, when I clearly don't wish to be. As far as I am concerned, widow or not, I am still a Mrs. Okay, freakish mother in law??

[JerseygirlCT]

73. One should be addressed according to one's preferences

But to start, before they're known, the default should be Ms.

[Gormy Cuss]

78. Anyone who insists on calling you Ms. as a widow needs to have an etiquette book slammed into them.

As a widow you are perfectly entitled to use the honorific Mrs. Perhaps someone can point the m-i-l to Miss Manners or Emily Post.

Ugh --as if you need such an annoyance.

[ima_sinnic]

94. that is so not true. How do I know someone's marital or widowed status?

If I'm applying for a job, writing a letter to a female I never met, should I call her up and ask if she prefers to be called Mrs.?

Of course not! "Ms." is simply the opposite of "Mr." for addressing any female at all, married, widowed, single, divorced, or whatever. It is not at all the same as "Miss," which went out about 30 years ago as a way to address someone formally and depended on knowing marital status.

[Gormy Cuss]

98. The situation referenced is one where the person DOES know the status.

There is no ambiguity in that case. Unless the widow announces that she prefers Ms. it is rude to use it. Check any etiquette book.

You are correct that Ms is appropriate when one doesn't have that knowledge, just as Mr is the default honorific for a man.

[JerseygirlCT]

106. IF that's what she wants, of course.

Not if she'd prefer something else.

[Gormy Cuss]

111. If you read Mrs. Grumpy's post, it's clear that the issue is that her preference is being ignored.

I just pointed out that those who insist on calling her Ms are the ones flouting convention, not her.

And all of the discussions on this issue remind me why I decided in college that I'd never change my name unless and until we started referring to men differently based on marital status and preference.

[JerseygirlCT]

112. Yes. That's exactly my position, as well.

And I just don't see why some people (including receptionists in medical offices, even) seem to think it's strange, or up to them to question me about!

[ima_sinnic]

92. "Ms." is a generic address that says nothing about your marital status (nt)

[ScreamingMeemie]

100. Read my post again. nt

[Berry Cool]

69. I see no reason for women to even consider taking their husband's name.

After all, most men never consider taking their wife's name, even if they "like it better" than their own, so why the reverse? Why should a woman's taking her husband's name be the default choice, unless for some reason she doesn't want to?

In an equal society, no one will be expected to take a spouse's name just as a matter of "custom" or just to avoid confusing others.

As for the children, each couple should have the right to figure out how to solve the naming thing on their own. If it confuses others too much that the kids may not have their father's name, well, that's unfortunate, but so what?

[defendandprotect]

97. It's a BIG mistake for a female .. I did it --

Your entire history is lost -- including your credit rating --

People can't find you --

Legally, you have to keep producing a marriage certificate with your birth

certificate to prove you're married... for anything legal --

passport, etal--!!!

Don't do it--!!!

[JerseygirlCT]

70. That's why my name is the one I was born with, thanks

And yes, my marital status is none of your business, unless I make it so.

And yes, it bugs the heck out of me to be addressed as Mrs. Husband's first name, husband's last name. He doesn't own me. That's not my name.

I asked my husband to change his last name to mine before we were married. He gave me a weird and surprised look. I told him that was precisely how I felt about changing mine. He's a smart guy and got it right away, and has been my biggest defender to the old folks who seem to think I'm some sort of radical for asking to be addressed by my name...

[DearAbby]

75. I dont mind the Ms.

the Ma'am thing raises my hackles, makes me sound old. My Mother had the same reaction, she always thought the person using it was trying to insult her in some way.

[Faux pas]

77. I always hated Ms. After I got divorced and my kids we old enough

to know they weren't illegitimate, I took back my maiden name just so I could be a Miss again.

[uppityperson]

81. "Ms." is so you don't have to differentiate between married/unmarried.

Ms.=Mr. except for f/m thing. No more miss/Mrs, just Ms. I kept my name, got confusing when the 3 of us all have different last names, but we all know who we are and schools/dr figured it out, mostly. Except for 1 moran school admin person who sent all communication to absent parent >1000mi away because had same last name as kid.

[Blue_In_AK]

82. I've always preferred "Ms." myself. n/t

[hfojvt]

101. At a fundraiser for Multiple Sclerosis the sign said "Help fight MS"

A guy came up and said, "here's $20, I hate that women's lib stuff too."

[Skittles]

102. I'd never change my name, and I don't understand why women do this

nope

[ProgressiveProfessor]

103. I discussed this with my wife before we got married and encouraged her to keep hers

telling her it would not bother me one way or the other. She chose to drop her last name and keep her middle name. It was her choice. Our daughers split. The one with a professional reputation kept hers. The one who was just getting started took her husband's last name. Their lives, their call.

[tabbycat31]

110. ditto

my mom was married almost 9 years before I was born and didn't change her name until then. My middle name is her maiden name.

If I ever get married, my name will stay exactly the same. My sister's getting married soon and changing her name. If i were her I'd keep the name, but then again he has a last name that will get most children ridiculed in school.

[JerseygirlCT]

113. My kids have my last name as a middle name, too

So they have each of our names in theirs.

[tabbycat31]

119. my sister does not

and my mom has said that has been one of her biggest regrets. She has a more traditional middle name (Elizabeth) than I do.

Should I ever have kids, they will most likely have 4 names.

[JerseygirlCT]

120. Mine have survived quite well with 4 names - despite

(again) the nosy busybodies who think it's their job to comment on them, lol.

They don't always use my last name, but it's there - part of their name. Just a reminder that that's also their family inheritance, you know?

[Qanisqineq]

108. I'm married, kept my last name, and prefer Ms.

I hate that my in-laws always address any cards to me as Mrs. "My husband's name". Apparently I lost both my first and last name when I married him and yet changed neither. Why not just put my damn name on there?

[Bluebear]

109. I haven't enjoyed a thread by you so much since you said that promiscuity of gays is "undeniable"

'I consider myself polite' :eyes:

[Peacetrain]

114. What a woman wants to use as a prefix to her name is her buisness

and that includes Miss, Mrs, Ms,. Madam. Your Royal Highness, ..whose name she decides to take or not take, or her significant other takes or does not take or if they hyphenate into infinity, is their buisness.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

115. Never check the little preference box...n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

117. The County Clerk committed a misdemeanor upon me one time.

When I was married to hubby #1, we went down to the courthouse to register a common-law marriage in Texas. The clerk tore up THREE FORMS, because he couldn't imagine two people being married and the woman not changing her name.

I asked him, "Where in the Texas Family Code does it say that I have to change my name? Show me."

Well, he couldn't show me. It's not there.

So I looked it up in the Texas Family Code and he committed a misdemeanor by not allowing us to file a Declaration of Common Law Marriage.

So we went to the J.P. and got married.

Hubby' # 1's parents were absolutely livid when I said I wouldn't change my name. They also thought that if we lived together, we would wake up one morning after six months and magically be married. I asked them "Where does it say that in the Texas Family Code?". Again, they couldn't cite it.

I hate it when people think they know the law, and didn't go to law school and have never worked in the legal profession.

I have been married and divorced twice. I didn't change my name because I liked my maiden name that I got from my dad, and I didn't want to be "Mrs. Jerkwad"!!! :evilgrin:

My daughter by Hubby #2 has Hubby #2's last name. I should have given her my maiden name as a middle name so it would survive, because I have no brothers.

I'm planning on marrying the shackmate who will be hubby #3. Unfortunately, he has two ex-wives who have kept his last name, and the first one has the same first name as my middle name, so there would be two Mrs. Susie Smiths running around. His son has two ex wives as well. I go by my middle name.

I tried to change my drivers' license when I was married to the 2nd one so it would have both last names on it. However, I tried to drop my first name, because I go by my middle name, and they wouldn't let me do that. So I said "To hell with it".

A lawyer friend of mine said that when she was teaching high school, they fired her after one year, and she thinks it was because she didn't go by Mrs. Hubby. She said she should have told them, "Just kiss my ass and call me Doctor".

That's what I want people to do, because I have a law degree. Just kiss my ass and call me Doctor Maiden Name.

:evilgrin:

I can't believe the people who get so mad when a woman keeps her maiden name. They can't separate the concept of marriage from the concept of having two different last names. The County Clerk pulled his shit on me in the late 1970s.

And I hate it when every one calls any woman past high school age "Mrs. ___".
I'm not Mrs. ____, that's my mother's name.

[JerseygirlCT]

125. With my first child

though it was quite obvious we were married (rings, comments, etc.) the folks in the hospital decided that b/c my last name was different, I needed a visit from social services (to tell me how to make sure the father of the baby paid his share, etc.). I tossed them, and then..
the same idiots, in spite of what we filled out, didn't put my husband on the birth cert. We had to go to the town hall and get it straightened out. They also hypenated my son's two middle names, and wouldn't fix that, either.

I HATE when people make stupid assumptions like that, based on their own weird preferences, and not on what the person involved has said!

[cynatnite]

122. I had a choice in whether or not I wanted my husband's name...

I wasn't all that attached to my maiden name so it wasn't a big deal. I don't feel as if my husband owns me or anything like that. If I wanted to keep my maiden name I could have and it wouldn't have been an issue for him. He's the kind of guy that doesn't feel emasculated or threatened by this sort of thing.

We're partners for life and my choosing to take his name is one symbol of that.

[Marie26]

124. The Mrs./Miss thing is very old-fashioned

I'm OK w/Ms. & think we should just use that regardless of marital status.