I'm Sorry. I'm Done. (language)

[Yes We Did]

After reading Bluebear's post about the GLBT community's "intolerance" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4781197
I have to say I am done;

Done reaching out to the "other side"...

I tried to be rational...
I tried to find possible good...
I really really tried to be a good soldier.
But if this is what it takes... I'm Done.

I just can't.
I just won't.

Fuck Rick Warren. Fuck CNN. Fuck Reaching Across The Aisle.

Being told to that I have to be "Tolerant" of someone else's "Intolerance" and flat out bigotry is where I draw the fucking line.

Excuse my Fucking French!

[Chulanowa]

1. I gave up on "reaching across the aisle" in 2002

I wasn't into it before not being into it was cool!

Seriously, there is no way to work with those folks. Their entire premise is their way or the highway. So I say fuck 'em and let them thumb a ride from the median.

[burythehatchet]

25. In 2002 I decided on my screen name. It doesn't mean what making peace.

[awoke_in_2003]

66. Well, i always kinda wondered...

where you wanted to bury that thing :)

[Maru Kitteh]

100. Good thing your av never thought that way.

[DonCoquixote]

2. I hear you

Granted, I do not agree with people who seem to think the Obama Presidency is a wash before he even gets into the Oval office, but I agree with you about Warren. The people who will actually help Obama the most are those who keep their voices heard, because THOSE folks will actually ensure change, while the people that do not speak out will simply aid those who want to keep thing business as usual.

It's people like you that got us what little progress we have, and people like you that we need if the Obama presidency is actually going to work.

[Jamastiene]

3. All I can say to you is:

:hug:

[leftstreet]

4. 'Reach across the aisle' is basically just a reach-around

K&R

[KittyWampus]

9. that's right. Therefore, gays have zero hope. Society hasn't become more open in the last

30 years. There's been no progress. People haven't evolved.

[Deja Q]

34. I'll teleport every GLBT person back to 1908...

We'll all tell the locals what we are.

In 2008, nobody is going to care.

In 1908, we're be massacred.

People have evolved. Some more than others and to varying extents.

But if it took tens of thousands of years for humanity to develop a rich use of language and chivalry, and blue jello too, someone needs convincing that a mere 30 years is really not enough time to change age-old mindsets into the polar opposite.

All things considered, between 1969 and now a hell of a lot of progress has been made.

[Yes We Did]

38. What it is true... alot of progress has been made,

it's not nearly enough; especially when CNN can publish something like that. They just can't flip the script like that. It doesn't work. It's pure bull shit.

[undergroundpanther]

120. The sooner the old straight white

bigoted old boy network dies off the better things can get.
You know the old toxic wastes like Rumsfeld Cheney,Kissenger,Rush,Savage Hannity, etc.etc.they are growing older by the second, may they age even faster, and die much sooner!! The grave will finally silence their fucking putrid bigoted bullshit,maybe some of the children of the old bigots who grow up abused or brainwashed,hated their own bigoted parents, will decide to raise children in the ways they were not.These kids treated with kindness and no abuse , will turn a deaf ear to the hateful old bigots of the past by default.One can hope for generational changes.

[Toasterlad]

150. People Die Every DAY For Being Gay.

Talk to me about evolution when we go a week without a teen killing himself, or someone being beaten to death. Talk to me about progress when I have the same rights as the other people who pay taxes.

Standing on a corner and NOT being stoned to death is NOT progress.

[defendandprotect]

91. It's patriarchal leadership/organized religion which hasn't changed ---!!!

I agree with the OP . . .

and tough times for all of us -- including gays --

but I do disagree about society -- enlightenment does

come and I think it has -- however, patriarchy is threatened

and has been for decades; this is their last stand --

the last cry of a dying intolerance for most of us.

I'm not gay -- but it's impossible not to see ALL of

patriachy's enemies -- all of Christianity's enemies and

and not recognize the great harm/murderous harm both have

done over 2,000 years of rule --- and probably 50 thousand

years of male violence before that ...

[StClone]

5. Damn Straight

The people that are persecuted have the right to decry the stupefying Rick Warren invocation as antithetical to what Obama's election seemed to symbolize.

Warren can talk somewhere else some other time. After the support given Obama from many quarters especially the GLBT there can at least be quiescent understanding, or more appropriately open support, for those feeling wronged and compelled to vent their frustrations and anger!

[lonestarnot]

6. Reach across the aisle to slap their sorry assed faces.

[KittyWampus]

8. Ah, spoken just like Martin Luther King!

[lonestarnot]

10. Did I say I was a relative?

[reggie the dog]

16. A bit more like X

but hey, X fought for his rights as he saw fit. I have a lot of respect for him because of that.

[Greyhound]

17. It actually is...

"For years I labored with the idea of reforming the existing institutions of society, a little change here, a little change there. Now I feel quite differently. I think you’ve got to have a reconstruction of the entire society...a radical redistribution of political and economic power." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., May 1967

He and the Kennedys had to die, they were telling the nation the truth, they were exposing plans.

ETA: Recommended

[KittyWampus]

7. So your solution is just exterminate those who oppose you or just let others do the heavy

lifting while you go rant on a street corner or on DU?

In other words, you are a part of the problem.

[specimenfred1984]

11. Giving war criminals, traitors, racists and conspirators a chance is your answer?

Blow it out your Gupta, most Americans are done dealing with psychopathic criminals aka "republicans".

[tkmorris]

14. Heavy lifting?

All I see is being wishy-washy cowards afraid to take a stand against ANYTHING. What next, attempting to understand the KKK?

[PVnRT]

26. Yes, that's exactly what he said

And they say the gays, atheists and lefties are the ones who "overreact."

[bvar22]

30. Another Strawman.....

...from the Centrist scarecrow factory.

"..just exterminate those who oppose you.."
That is NOT what HE said.
That is what YOU said.

HINT: Almost every rebuttal that starts with "So...(what you are saying is)..." is a Strawman.


CENTRISM !!!....because its soooo easy!
You don't have to STAND for anything, and get to insult those who do!

[awoke_in_2003]

67. So what you are saying...

is he is erecting strawmen? :)

[DaDeacon]

31. HEAR HEAR ... BOUT TIME SOMEONE SAID IT !!!

I tried to make that point after prop 8 passed that "the real work" had just started and I was told I was bashing LGBTs while they were down?!? I am shocked at how SO many in the LGBT community like to link their movement to African American movement for scope but seem to forget the YEARS of work, DEATH and dedication that proceeded the large gains in the 60s and 70s. Please continue the good works but the sweating the small stuff and not addressing the larger issues is the fastest way to lose all gains.

[HEyHEY]

42. Abou time someone said it? People have been saying it for weeks, and they've all been WRONG

A bigot is a bigot, a bigto doesn't want to shake hands or listen and learn from Gay people. Enjoy backing repression.

[Toasterlad]

79. You Are Not Alone In Your Belief That GLBTers Must Wait For Their Rights

Lots of other dorks feel that way, too.

Since we, as a country, went through a massive upheaval in the not-too-distant past in which an oppressed minority campaigned aggressively for their rights despite the indifference and/or opposition of the majority of the populace, why in someone's god's name should we have to do it again?

We all know how this dance ends. I know it, you know it, and the lowest bigoted flea hanging off Rick Warren's asshole knows it. We WILL get our rights. Why, then, must we wait?

It was immoral to make black people wait for their rights, and it is just as immoral to expect gays to do it, too...especially since we've been waiting LONGER. Didn't someone once say something about those who forget the lessons of history...?

[Bluebear]

84. Plenty of gays have died too. Plenty.

[cboy4]

135. Oh would you put a cork in it? ... Your behavior in the GLBT

forum was unacceptable, which was why you had your ass handed to you.

And you seem so obsessed with how gay people decide to fight for our civil rights.

BTW, reaching out to Rick Warren won't do shite.

I'm embarrassed and sad that Melissa Etheridge has been played.

[racaulk]

136. "...but seem to forget the YEARS of work, DEATH and dedication..."

Yep, teh gays don't know anything about that. :eyes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x106997

[Creideiki]

137. How many years should we have to wait?

20? Done.

50? Done.

100? Done.

How many years? World War freaking II was won primarily because of a gay man, and he got persecuted for being gay. Gee, thanks.

Oscar Wilde gave some of the greatest works of literature in the English language, and he got imprisoned for being gay (actually might have been bi, but they punished him for the same-sex attractions).

So how many years, so we know not to bother you until we get to the right time?

[Yes We Did]

35. You really have no idea.

Thanks for trying to rain on the parade, but i have an umbrella. You might be surprised as to exactly how much of the "heavy lifting" I HAVE done... but that's okay.

Have a nice day.

[yardwork]

106. Don't let him bother you. There are a lot of jerks around lately.

[Yes We Did]

108. I think they've always been here...

Just not as vocal. Actually, I have noticed so many new people posting; or at least people I never heard of before... Makes me wonder how many are republicans just trying to start shit.

In case they didn't realize it, we have enough going on between the people who have been here through the entire primary and election seasons.

But thanks... Not letting anyone bother me today.

[HEyHEY]

41. No, it's those who would allow for bigotry and are dumb enough to think they can change it

With hugs and handshakes that are the problem.

[Yes We Did]

43. Don't you just love...

How people can half read a thread and then make some ass-backwards comment on it?

B-E-A-Utiful.

[HEyHEY]

54. It's cause they don't really care

They sit there and talk about reaching across the aisle, but they won't actually do it, cause they don't really care.

[DaDeacon]

46. Hugs and handshakes work far better that Internet Revonluataries

Hugs and handshakes work far better that Internet Revolutionaries. Trust! Ranting and raving online has worked so well. Tell me when the online march will be or when the internet lawmakers will overturn prop 8? Oh wait I'll tell you. NEVER! If you are too thick to understand that no mater how much you post on DU nothing will change, then good luck to you. Fight or Die people. NO more rants, how about plans, real world plans. How about forming caucuses with like minded people who are on the other side. How about building a real moment that works to bring change. Has anyone tried to setup meetings or fours @ Saddleback? We did it here in Atlanta with some of the lager churches before the vote here in 2004 and with some of the other civic groups ( we didn't do enough in south GA). You don't like what he says change his mind and can't do that on the DU! I am with you but the fight needs less rants more truth fighters!

[Yes We Did]

48. As I said...

You really have no idea. I HAVE attended rallies and volunteered my time. There is nothing wrong with coming on here and venting.

That's what this place is for; discussion.

[DaDeacon]

50. To quote Dr. King: Sometimes I get Discuraged....

I never question how much work anyone does but no mater how much you do there is still work to be done. You need to vent fine brother (or sister) vent but I need to see more of the fight. It's become too common place to see a post like this and no action placed behind it. No call to organization! If you want to post a rant follow it with an action plan. Even if it's a meet and greet in your city for everyone who disagrees with you so you can super soak them in one place :)

[Yes We Did]

63. Well, I'm glad we can agree...

Although, I don't have an action plan... I do have an open offer to assist in designing fliers or posters for any events.

I always believe you are best off helping with your best talent... That's mine, and that's how I've been doing my part.

[DaDeacon]

64. Just keep on...

The action plan thing is just a way to keep you from ranting. It works for me whenever I fell like I need to scream I just see what else I can do.
PM me when you get a chance we may need a some graphx made. You never know.

[Yes We Did]

69. I'll add you to my buddy list...

I'll pm you when I get some organized.

[DaDeacon]

102. and I will do the same.

[HEyHEY]

52. Name one instance where hugs and handshakes stopped oppression

[DaDeacon]

53. Sure when you tell me when an internet "rant" changed a law?

...smart ass!

[HEyHEY]

55. I never said internet ranting would change a thing

This is just a discussion board. But the people here are right when they are against their political leaders shaking hands with bigots. That won't do anything. So, again, when has the "hug the enemy" approach resulted in the easement of repression?

And don't throw the internet red herring at me again, I'm not now, or have I ever said, internet ranting would sovled anything.

[DaDeacon]

58. I figured it was Red Herring season!

HEyHEY, speaking of Red Herrings You brought in "Hugs and handshakes" not I. Secondly I stated that they do more good that "Internet Revolutionaries" and that is true. At least speaking to your opposition openly does more for any cause that spouting your frustration online. If you want to call my solution of working hard to overcome oppression by ...well Working and Organizing "Hugs and handshakes" then fine but know that people "Working and Organizing/"Hugs and handshakes"'is the only thing that has ever change people's hearts and minds!

[HEyHEY]

65. My comment wasn't a red herring

It was a disputing what the poster said.

Anyone who enjoys civil rights has had to fight for them. Did being nice help Native Americans? Did being nice help African Americans? Did being nice help Indians? Will it help Tibet?

No. That's the answer to it all.

[cboy4]

126. Match, set and win

:thumbsup:

No is right.

[AntiFascist]

97. Rick Warren has whined about how the internet has insulted him...

I honestly think he may have seen SwampRat's depictions of him as Jabba the Hut. This is progress! (Oh, ho ho ho ho ho.)

[PVnRT]

158. Answer the question

[FiveGoodMen]

57. FAIL. You said hugs and handshakes work. Then, when challenged, you ducked the question.

[DaDeacon]

59. WIN: I never called for "Hugs and Hadshakes" FAIL: You, for not reading post!

[FiveGoodMen]

70. "Hugs and handshakes work far better that Internet Revolutionaries"

Does that sound familiar?

[frylock]

86. *crickets*

[DaDeacon]

95. LOL, sorry in a meeting ...but *crickets* funny!

[DaDeacon]

94. Read the post not just the subject...again Fail: YOU!

I said in said post that Hugs and handshakes work far better than Internet Revolutionaries not that hug and handshakes are the answer just more effective than online rants....

[FiveGoodMen]

144. That changes absolutely nothing.

[Jakes Progress]

90. Now if you are going to hold him to his own words

what will he do. It is so unfair to expect him to either back up his statement or retract it. Instead, he is forced to toss red fish and make a new travel list. He ducks his challenges as well as bush ducks shoes.

See how much hugging Lieberman will get you.

[DaDeacon]

96. read the post not just ther headlines jakes....

[Jakes Progress]

121. Read 'em.

You might try it.

(You're real big on saying you win and others lose. How huggable is that? Seeing anyone about this?)

[DaDeacon]

131. Tisk tisk ...

So you read them and still make the comments you do? Then you are either ignorant (one who lacks knowledge), or just confrontational in either respect no mater of "reason" will win your side and no manner of insult will parry your judgment. I wish you the best of luck and please do good work much is to be done.

[Jakes Progress]

133. And it won't be by the "methods"

you suggest. Note the plural. Your insistence that yours is the "way", that those who disagree are ignorant is very telling.

I hope that you do at least half of the "good" work that I do daily. It is hard work that must be done. It requires a knowledge of the history of what has happened. If justice and equality and a furtherance of civil rights is important to our leaders, then being willfully ignorant of the history of capitulation and "cooperation" with the other side will not be be considered progress. Publicly playing nice and mouthing platitudes is exactly what people like Warren and the republican leadership does. Mimicking their duplicity will not further our goals. There is no evidence that playing nice will work. The PE was elected because the country wanted a different direction. There is no need to halve our agenda to give the republicans their share. Their share is greed and prejudice. Hypocrisy is neither a decent or effective negotiating policy. They do not want to share in our vision; they want to eliminate it. We have had four years of a majority in Congress playing nice with the republicans. Do you believe that those tactics produced any good? We have been polite and sweet and tried to be understanding. We have tried to convince them that peace in the world, brotherhood among man, and equal rights were a better vision for our country. All that talk and cooperation led us to where we are now.

The election campaign slogan was about change. Bending over for the republicans is not change.

I note that you admit that you want to "win" by insult and forms of reason that require the word be put in quotes. I do think that is the kind of reasoning that you do. I want you do do good work too. But I believe the work should produce more effect and less platitude. Roll up your sleeves and man the barricades or stay home. We don't need more appeasers.

[rpannier]

110. That I can

Nelson Mandela South Africa

After the fall of the Apartheid government was quite often seen wearing the Springboks Jersey -- The South African Rugby Team.

The Springboks and their supporters had often been heard viewing racist epitaphs and singing racist songs for many years.

Mandela sported their jersey and sat with many of their supporters at Rugby matches, loudly supporting the National Team.

He won over many Springbok fans because they viewed him as one of them -- A Springbok

[HEyHEY]

115. Oh, I guess then gay people should all join fundie churches

Let's not forget it wasn't springboks fans who stopped apartheid.

[rpannier]

128. That may be true

But most of them got on board with the new Government in South Africa and made Mandela's job a lot easier.

I never suggested you should join a fundie church

Someone wanted an example of where reaching out to your political enemies worked and I gave him one.

Sorry that I found one.

[DaDeacon]

132. Good Post --BTW

Wouldn't it be great if the congratulation of Pastor Warrens church became so over run with members of the GLBT community that he could no longer open hold the views they now stand by? Think about it. Yeah join get active and change it from the inside.

[rpannier]

146. That is a good point

One I'd never thought of.

Attend his Church.
Join his Church.

[Toasterlad]

80. I Love How Morons Who Post Online Think That's All Anyone Else Ever Does.

You must have SOME life.

I'm perfectly capable of calling you stupid on the same day that I'm calling my congressman, writing my president elect, planning a protest rally and distributing a boycott list.

Keep working on the walking and chewing thing.

[DaDeacon]

98. Done and done now can you...

Do me a solid and read the "all" post because if you do you'll see that even I and the original poster see eye to eye.

[Daemonaquila]

93. Talk about red herrings.

Let's see... either you get to rant OR you're doing work, but people can't do both in your world view. Your post is a pretty good rant, too. By that logic, your rant about someone ranting means you haven't done squat either. I see a double standard here. Apparently people who are mad are just complaining on the Internet... unless their methods are *your* chosen methods. Oh, good lordy.

Not everyone is about kissing the opposition and hoping to make peace. I can think of a whole scad of historical examples where literal and figurative firebombs were more useful than placating the opposition. "Truth fighting" requires calling a spade a spade. When faced with a true evil - active bigotry, sacrificing thousands of young americans for a lie, etc. - you don't pander to the evil. You kick it in the 'nads every way you can. No meeting with Saddleback is going to change their fundamentally odious religious beliefs or messages about women and gays.

[DaDeacon]

99. You make this too easy ...

Where do I start:

A. "Rant OR you're doing work"; I'm sorry I never made the two mutually exclusive did I? No, I did not. So your first paragraph is null.

B. "Not everyone is about kissing the opposition and hoping to make peace" I agree every Martin needed a Black Panthers Party. A force you would NOT deal with that makes the civil meeting a little easier. So when is the firebombing? AK-47 march? Not Even a black Barret and leather Jacket? See that is my point less online rants about "how mad you are" and more action. There has been at least two of these a day since Nov 4th 2008 and honestly no true call to action. TIME DATES GOALS .....see what I mean?

B. Pt2 "You don't pander to the evil." but you can Understand it, confront it, and subdue it. It takes time to break down walls of ignorance ...sorry but it's true. You will never change the hearts of others by demonizing them and refusing to sit across the table from them...wait does that sound familiar.

[MNBrewer]

112. A Lager Church?

:beer:

[PatrynXX]

88. gonna turn us all into Ann Coulter's

the day the law bans ann coulter's books, is the day America dies. Oh I hate her no doubt about that, but she's protected by the first amendment. I wish we'd practice what we preach. Going to play right into Sean Hannity's hands. It's called not buy her books or watching his shows. I'm not even comfortable with Al Franken because he's the exact opposite of Ann Coulter. Now she's going to get the crazy idea of being a senator. eek. (al's still better than Norm though. but not by much)

It's good to have a debate, but name calling gets us nowhere and gives weapons to the wrong side. And certainly isn't what Obama stands for.

[Evoman]

119. I'm 190 fucking pounds of solution if these bigots come anywhere near me or people I care about.

Fuck your appeasing bullshit.

[Starry Messenger]

12. I hope people will also kick and rec. Bluebear's Op.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4781197

:)

[Yes We Did]

36. Definitely...

That's why I linked to it.

[Starry Messenger]

37. Thank you demdog78!

It's important that people realize that the intolerance is still out there. "Reaching out to bigots"--at the very least the most virulent and highly funded--is a crock 'o the warm steamy brown stuff!

[Yes We Did]

40. I can go 85% with ya on that...

Only because I think some people are reachable; including both my father and step father; both of whom I have seen tremendous attitude changes.

However, people like Warren... no, and organizations who excuse them... no.

[Starry Messenger]

49. I think we agree--one on one with teachable people is certainly valuable.

It's the institutions and people who manipulate these issues for money and power who don't want to be convinced. It would cut off their cash flow to their orgs. :(

[Yes We Did]

61. Exactly. n/t

[BunnyBluetimes]

13. I love your FUCKING FRENCH

gimme more and FUCK RICK the PRICK WARREN:grr:

[reggie the dog]

15. mais putain de merde enfin

maintenant on doit tolérer l'intolérance des homophobes sinon on est prit pour des intolérants nous même! J'en ai marre des ces histoires à la con!

[mmonk]

18. Need a fork?

I agree about this so called reaching across the aisle stuff. Our country would be on a better path had Democrats decided to fight instead.

[racaulk]

19. Fuckin' A!

:applause:

You speak for me.

K&R

[deaniac21]

20. Can't we, at least, have a wide stance across the aisle?

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Fucking happy making news, dog

Glad to see you have a breakthrough. I knew that you would. The fucking line must be drawn some fucking where! Draw it! Fuck it! Good for you!

[snooper2]

22. You know, you have a prime example of human tolerance

as your avatar :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[wildbilln864]

23. you're right and you rock!

:yourock:

[Bluebear]

24. Wow!

:)

[mike_c]

27. excuse my fucking recommendation....

Right on!

[arcadian]

28. This will always be used as a wedge in this country

And there are those on both sides(politicians) who are just fine with that.

[helderheid]

29. Merci!

[tomp]

32. "reaching across the aisle" is bad, bad policy. nt

[Deja Q]

33. The article just points out the irony of the situation and how nuts life always will be.

It's an inevitability of life.

And what was said by a responder is still quite correct: Intolerance IS contagious.

[Yes We Did]

39. I read much more than that...

It does much more than "point out the irony of the situation"
It defends bigotry, and all but says 'how dare the gays be offended'

Apparently, we read it differently.

[Political Tiger]

44. I'm gay, and I understand that

as long as we keep this "us against them" attitude in this country, things will never get better for the GLBT community.

I work with a gal who was also a very good friend of mine. When I came out to her, she was fine about it.

But a few days later she came up to me all upset, telling me she told her husband about me and he was very upset and he didn't want her hanging around me anymore. Turns out he was very homophobic. He was afraid I would try to molest their children or try to "convert" her.

She asked me if I would come over and talk to him. I was very reluctant to do so at first but then I decided to do so.

We sat down and told me about what he thinks about gay people, how we are all perverts and like to molest children, etc.

I explained to him how all this bullshit he had been told about gay people all his life was just propaganda and lies, and explained to him what it was like to be gay.

Slowly, but surely, he started to open his mind and listen.

After more exposure to me, he came around to realizing that he was wrong about gay people, that we were not all these stereotypes that he had been led all his life to believe we were.

I even convinced him to go to a gay bar to see for himself!

After a while, we became friends and he no longer objected to me hanging out with his wife or being around their children. He even invited me and my then boyfriend to come over for dinner!

The point is, most homophobic people are that way because that's what they have been taught to be. They think gay people are this and that because they have never had any first hand exposure to gay people.

Bigotry and hate comes from fear. Fear of the unknown.

The more and more people see that gay people are not just a bunch of effeminate, cross-dressing, sex obsessed child molesting "fags," the more they will come around and start to see us instead as human beings!

That's what reaching out does! And that's what I believe Obama is trying to do, and that's why Melissa Etheridge went over to Rick Warren's house and invited him to hers.

It's not the perfect solution and it's not going to change everyone's mind, but it's a hell of a lot better than just constantly fighting with each other.

[Yes We Did]

47. You make some very valid points...

And I'm not suggesting a riot or anything like that... but... What CNN published is disgusting.

It's like... it's like blaming the rape victim... or blaming someone for getting robbed for being in the wrong place...

You know what I mean?

[Political Tiger]

51. Yeah, I do know what you mean

But when I read shit like that, I consider the source....in this case, this OP was from Jordan Lorence of the Alliance Defense Fund, which is the anti-ACLU. These people are not just bigots, they're nuts! They hate everyone who is not straight, Republican and doesn't subscribe to their particular brand of what they call "Christianity." Hate is their true religion.

As far as I am concerned, the Alliance Defense Fund is a terrorist group and should be treated accordingly.

[Yes We Did]

62. Why the hell...

would CNN give them the bandwidth? I will never understand that... I mean, yeah, they like to stir the shit, but there has to be some limits. That was disgusting.

[wolfgangmo]

56. Demdog and OVision are both right.

Let me explain.

Historically the only social revolutions to succeed had 2 main facets. First the public, wherein rights are publicly demanded and agitated for. The second is the personal wherein hearts and minds are changed 1 person at a time. Both are needed.

Let's not argue about how to achieve the goal. All methods are valid to a point . Rather let's go forth and pursue the goal with whatever method best matches our skills and temperaments.

[Political Tiger]

71. As the saying goes:

There's more than one way to skin a cat!

[TheKentuckian]

60. Damn, I wish I could rec this post

How this entire thought process is lost is well beyond my understanding. The biggest obstacle is ignorance and education is the cure, not screaming obscenities, bigot, and hiding out.

Assimilation is crucial. People won't effectively relate to folks they have no association with, it is way too easy to be dehumanized.

[firedupdem]

68. What a great post. My husband's uncle is gay. Came out to the

family years ago but lives out of state so he was the butt of jokes from my father in law for all these years even though they didn't spend anytime around him. A few years ago, the uncle came in town for a wedding with his boyfriend. My father in law was talking so much shit before hand that it was ridiculous. After spending a few days with this couple and talking with them he totally changed his tune. He even admitted he was wrong and had just never been around anybody gay in his life and didn't know how he should react.

It's all about education. People fear what they don't know or understand. Hate on top of hate never helps. What if MLK had decided fuck it, we're marching but if they throw a brick throw one back! I understand the frustration when dealing with close minded jerks but keep your head when everyone else around you loses theirs.

[Boomerang Diddle]

74. I can relate to that

I used to hold these stereotypes about gay people until my brother came out and told me he was gay. He totally educated me and made me see the errors of my way.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Political Tiger]

87. Thanks. I will. And feel free to remain bitter

and hold onto your rage if that's what floats your boat. Makes no difference to me.

[cboy4]

124. Gee, how nice of the husband to accept you after you

went over on your hands and knees and begged and pleaded in order to prove you weren't a child molester.

How lovely.

He seems like a fundamentally dishonest and rotten person to have been so homophobic from the beginning. He didn't want his wife to be around you because he was afraid you were going to molest their children? Horrible. How can you forgive that?

I think it's sad that gay people have to beg for everything.

EVERYTHING.

And this Prop 8 amendment where we had to plead to straight people for their votes was unspeakable.

Human rights are non-negotiable.

And I'm embarrassed for Melissa Etheridge who got played.

[Political Tiger]

138. Oh please! Where did I say I "begged and pleaded?"

I didn't say any such thing, and frankly, it's insulting and childish for you to even imply that I said such a thing.

This intense victim hood mentality you have only hurts you, and nobody else.

Not all gay people look in the mirror and see a victim looking back. Some of us realize that life is not always fair and we understand that we have two choices ... we can wallow in pity or we can try to make positive changes in the world and one way of doing that is giving people the opportunity to get to know us.

Some of us realize their are people who have never met an openly gay person and what they think they know about gay people is wrong because they have been spoon feed lies and stereotypes about gay people all their life, and we realize that getting in their face and yelling at them is more likely to result in them taking an even harder stance against gays.

And then some of us realize that if these people get to know us on a personal basis they will see for themselves that what they have been told about gay people is wrong.

Mahatma Gandhi said "you must be the change you wish to see in the world." I choose to be that change.

[cboy4]

140. Are you aware of the definition of pride?

Refusing to crawl on hands and knees to prove to straights that gay people are human beings is not wallowing in pity.

And it has nothing to do with having "two choices."

It's a matter of pride and confidence and principle.

What does it say about homophobes who don't approach gays and try to get to know us on a personal basis so they can make the right choice?

Why do you feel it's gay people who have to always reach out?

I'm sure my comments were absolutely indeed insulting because I found it nauseating that some asshole would tell his wife to stay away from you because he thinks gays molest children.

Sorry, but I don't need people like that in my life if it means kissing their ass to prove I'm not a fucking pedophile.

And frankly, I'd be shocked if he isn't as homophobic as ever when he's not around you. Just a hunch.

But you do what you want. I refuse to beg.

[Political Tiger]

145. Pride does not mean wallowing in pity.

Pride doesn't mean hiding in corners and hoping someone will like you and throwing a tantrum if they don't.

Pride means standing up for yourself, which is exactly what I did.

Pride means leading by example, not balling your eyes out because someone said something bad about you.

Pride means knowing who you are, and what you are, and excepting who you are, and once you are able to do that you are able to meet and talk to people on a one to one basis and show them why you have pride.

Pride = courage, something you are sorely missing.

I wasn't afraid to meet with someone who thought ill of gay people because in the end, I don't care what they think. But if meeting with someone like that can help them see life through a different set of lens, I feel it's worth it.

I met with that man at the request of my friend, and I was proud to do so, to stand up for myself. And I did stand up for myself, and I also helped to educate another human being and change his heart. Now, if my effort had failed, I wouldn't have thrown a fit or balled my eyes out, I would have just walked away and continued on with my life, but at least I could tell myself I tried.

My pride allowed me to make a change for the better in this world, to help another human being understand how they were wrong.

And I feel good about that. Damn good!

That, honey, is what pride is all about.

Instead of blubbering all day on a message board about what a victim you are, why not try to make a positive difference in your life and someone else's life by treating them the same way you would want them to treat you.

Saying you have pride and shouting and yelling insults at people tends to backfire, you know what I mean?

Of course you don't! You are too full of rage, and hate, and mistrust. You're too busy convincing yourself the whole world is out to get you and the only way you are going to be loved and accepted is to tell them to fuck off.

Well sweetie, you keep playing the martyr. I plan to stick what I know for a fact works for me, and I can hold my head up high because I know I am making a real difference, and if people like you can't or refuse to understand what I am saying, well, that's your problem, not mine.

I'm a proud gay man, a proud man who doesn't need to hide under the bed just because some bigot says something hateful about me. I can take it, because I am strong. My self worth is NOT dependent on what others think about me.

[Boomerang Diddle]

148. Good for you!

[Toasterlad]

149. You're Confusing Pride With Being a Doormat.

NO one needs a lecture on Pride from YOU.

While you may get off on patiently explaining to individual homophobes why they're misguided as the rest are pissing all over you, most of us aren't willing to wait the centuries it will take your method to work.

You "patience and understanding" types amuse me to no end. Your whole shpiel is how we won't change minds by calling people bigots to their faces. Who does that? Seriously? Do you think I'm walking down the street accosting various people and asking them if they're homophobic, and then laying into them if they say yes?

Do you think Rick Warren would tell me to my face that I'm an immoral not-quite-human being bound for hell? Well, actually, Rick Warren probably would. But do you think your average homophobe is going to be as nasty as they can be as a group in a one-on-one situation?

Of COURSE the guy liked you once he got to know you! I never said what you were doing is WRONG. I do it myself, all the time. But if that's ALL you do, if you're not willing to call out the sum total of the hate for what it is, and if you're not willing to aggressively fight it, then your efforts are a drop in the ocean.

You can be proud of yourself for staying "above the fray" all you want, but you are contributing virtually nothing to the struggle. We're at WAR, sister. Just because we didn't start the war doesn't mean we don't have to fight it. You need to get your butt marching, sign-waving, and telephoning. Most of all, you have to start YELLING. Because you are NEVER going to see progress if you're quietly and patiently explaining things one asshole at a time.

And please: don't accuse the people who are doing what YOU should be doing of blubbering, playing the martyr and hiding under a bed. These are people doing things YOU don't have the balls to do. Not only are you ungrateful, you're tacky, too.

[Political Tiger]

157. You're confusing PRIDE with RAGE.

If you guys could get beyond your rage for just one minute you might be able to understand what I actually said.

You see, I never said anything about "begging and pleading" or "changing one bigot at a time" or any of the other nonsense I've been accused of.

All I did was tell the story of how I met with one person and the next thing I know the usual suspects come running and attack me personally and acting as if that one moment in my life set back the gay rights movement by a hundred years!

Let's get real here!

Jane Elliott said "racism is a learned affliction and anything that is learned can be unlearned." I agree with that, and that, if anything, was my point.

I never said or even suggested that gay people should kowtow to every bigot in the world, on the other had, if the opportunity arises where we can make a difference by helping a bigot unlearn their affliction we should not automatically reject the opportunity to do so.

You guys are acting no different than the bigots who hate us. Like them, you have your mind made up and no matter what you are going to refuse to listen to a different point of view.

Some people, bigots and non-bigots alike, are like that. Your minds are closed, you're going to argue simply for the sake of arguing.

Thankfully, not everyone is that narrow minded. Not everyone's mind is sealed shut.

So if it makes you better to keep attacking me, have at it. If it makes you feel better to look at me as the enemy, do it.

If anger is what you need to feel alive, more power to you, but I for one refuse to give up hope on mankind.

[alfredo]

45. Some people don't like the French.

I had a French girlfriend, she was hot, but had some "issues."

Life is too short to let the assholes get you down.


fuck em

[Hepburn]

72. A-fucking-men!

:applause:

[tbyg52]

73. Word. nt

[valerief]

75. The other side sits on your face which smothers you and keeps you from speaking.

On top of that, they fart nonstop. And the sat-upon are supposed to smile? I think not.

[blublu]

76. french

Your French is beautiful.

[anachro1]

77. Why bother?

Xtians, most of whom have NEVER even read the Bible, will ALWAYS HATE US. Accept that, and then begin upsetting their attempts. I REFUSE to reach out to an ignorant hatefilled party.

I. Get. It. Fuck with my rights, and I will have supreme fun making all their ignorant lives even more miserable than they already are.

[MasonJar]

78. 2002? What happened to 2000 and the Felonious Five! My Waterloo

with reaching across the aisle. Obama had better not overdo it, if he wants to retain my good opinion.

[Union Yes]

82. Be tolerant all. Bigots reached out to us gay folks with threats of ricin.

Shouldn't we reach out with love and peace?

FUCK THAT.

This gay dood is through being nice!

[Fearless]

83. Don't enter politics then.

:evilgrin:

[ronnykmarshall]

85. But it's just a 2 minute PRAYER!!!!

[Divine Discontent]

89. what I wrote to Jordan Lorence about his CNN opinion piece proclaiming we're intolerant of Warren's

right to his opinion --

"This attorney's intolerance of allowing other people's lives to be THEIRS and not to be dictated by his opinion is breathtakingly "I speak for God" talk, and it's slanderous.

God said judge not lest ye be judged - Jordan - that means you, too! We do not say you can or cannot be married (if you are) to whomever you may love. How dare you intervene in someone else's life in such an intrusive manner.

You are shameful and pig-headed."

[orleans]

92. well said. k&r n/t

[YOY]

101. I gave up being tolerant of the fuckwads when "Leave my country." became a common RW defense.

Funny how they stopped saying it. I still want one to try to say it to my face. Makes me want to throw down something fierce.

[Yes We Did]

109. I love hearing that.... I'm a Native American.

Where the fuck am I supposed to go?

[undergroundpanther]

118. good question

I think they'd round up anyone suspected of being Native Americans,or sympathetic to the Tribes ,force us all on the nearest rez, than bomb us to bits like Israel is doing to Gaza.
That's my best guess.

I don't think the fuckers are EVER going to let Peltier go even if they kill off every last person on the Red Road..

[Goblinmonger]

143. I was pretty pissed

when Clinton didn't pardon Peltier. Hopefully Obama will right that horrible wrong.

[YOY]

129. I'm second generation American. It makes me want to kill.

n.t.

[Lilith Velkor]

156. My retort: "Leave my planet."

[trickyguy]

103. I'd reach out - with an iron hand in a velvet glove.

Those people - including Rick Warren - have no tolerance for gays.

And they've been saying the same old shit for years.

Quoting the same tired passages from the Bible. And then Rick has the fucking balls

to tell us he "not homophobic".

On second thought let me put a dagger in that iron hand of mine. :evilgrin:

[donheld]

104. Come on, reach accross the Aisle and

Slap'em a good one.

[yardwork]

105. I appreciate this OP.

We can know that something is the "right thing to do" on an intellectual and spiritual level but still find it very difficult to do, especially when we feel attacked.

I hate to sound like a victim. I don't feel like a victim. I hate being discriminated against because it casts me in the role of a victim of legalized bigotry and I don't want that identity. I fight against it with jokes and laughter and trying to focus on positive, important, constructive things.

I supported Obama's campaign. I have his name on my car and I contributed a fair amount of money to his campaign and I was so happy on election night.

Then I woke up the day after election day and felt like I'd been kicked in the gut. And even then I wasn't angry, just disappointed. All it would have taken was a little empathy and I would have continued to feel positive and upbeat, but no. It wasn't enough that gay people had more rights taken away in four more states. It had to be jammed in our faces. Real mean.

Real mean. Here on DU and everywhere else. And the meanness goes on and on. And when we complain, when we ask people to please stop being so mean....we get told that we're the problem.

That's fucked up. I'm sorry, but it's fucked up.

[Bluebear]

114. Read this commentary from a straight spiritualist

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4787575&mesg_id=4787575

It says a lot of what you're saying.

[yardwork]

123. That's very affirming. As that writer knows. it's healing to acknowledge people's hurt.

I'm done with trying to explain to people something that - if they were decent human beings - they would already know. Time to move on to more productive discussions with the kind of people I want to spend time talking with.

Thank you.

[JackDragna]

107. Reach across the aisle..with a hammer.

eom

[cboy4]

111. I'm stunned.

:thumbsup:

[Yes We Did]

122. People on the internet are rarely who you first think they are...

I can't remember if we have had arguments in the past cboy4; I don't believe so. I know I have had words with a number of people on here; several particularly within the GLBT community, but as I say often... it's not about sexuality, it's about personality.

And that's not a slight at anyone in particular, it simply means that at any given time on any given issue personalities can clash and lead to arguments that really don't need to happen.

But I can honestly say I whole-heartedly mean every word in my OP, and if I have written anything previously that offended or upset you regarding these matters, I would like to offer an apology; to you or anyone else who felt that way.

I know you said you are stunned, but if you knew the whole truth you'd probably shit your pants.

[cboy4]

125. Well I don't remember arguing with you, although I know

we didn't see eye to eye during the primaries.

That's fine. It's politics and I don't hold a grudge over differences in that regard.

You're humble response to me is very classy, and I've already switched from being stunned to being very impressed.

Thanks again for your nice words.

[Yes We Did]

142. LOL... A lot of that went on then...

And I am slowly learning about that "grudge" thing... Yeah... Grudges... I have had to let some of those go recently.

And you are very welcome. I meant what I said.

[KakistocracyHater]

113. I'm proudly intolerant of the intolerant

...

[undergroundpanther]

152. kakistocracy hater

Ahh Another person that knows what the word means..

The definition is displayed on my journal..
Look under HissSpit!
Hehe..

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/undergroundpanther

[RufusTFirefly]

116. Lorence's outrageous article reminded me to renew my PFAW membership

And to sign their open letter to Obama, letting him know how much we oppose his decision to exalt a bigot to such a position of prominence at what would otherwise have been a joyous occasion.

If you're not already a member of People For the American Way, I encourage you to check out their site. I have no official affiliation with them. I'm simply a member.

[undergroundpanther]

117. You can't compromise with sociopaths.

And say you have "Ethics" or "principles. Because assholes like Warren ARE sociopaths and they have no ethics or principles.. The sociopath LIVES to fuck over others and fuck up their lives.

The only reaching across the isle any of those sociopath,
,arrogant ,greedy evil hearted, social darwinist,'free market',
republican, prosperity jesus fundamentalist,fetus loving ,child hating,GBLT bashing,woman hating,abusive bully assholes across the isle deserves, is a punch in the FACE,and a kick in the ribs,and a foot up their ass..out the door and right into the gutter where they BELONG.

It's time we HATED the HATERS right BACK.
It's time we got INTOLERANT about the INTOLERABLE.

Fuck this "moderate" bullshit.
Taking a little arsenic in your water is STILL DRINKING POISON!
And eventually even if you can drink that tainted water with no ill effects today,Dem's,that arsenic will over time, twist you up inside, it will catch up to you kill your soul and make you SICK.

[Lucian]

127. I've always refused to reach across the aisle...

We don't need them. The Dems have a majority in both the House and the Senate, as well as the President. When the Repubs were in the same spot, they refused to reach out to the Dems. Fuck them.

I REFUSE to work with bigoted, sexist, racist, homophobic assholes.

[Zuiderelle]

130. I am surprised and grateful to welcome you to the intolerant world of GLBT Americans.

I refuse to tolerate others' hatred of me. Glad you're with us.

:toast:

[Yes We Did]

141. 100%

:toast:

[Zuiderelle]

155. ...

delete

[Bluebear]

147. Me too. Very happy and grateful.

[yardwork]

134. kicking for today with gratitude for the OP

[bluedawg12]

139. Compromise with bioterrorism?

And people who threaten to kill gays with ricin, as in the breaking story from Seattle?

Compromise with people who make couples chose between love for each other and their own children as in the recent Court ruling in Tenn?

Compromise with people who want to deny even a slight hint of civil rights for gays, as in the recent story about the clergy who oppose even a civil registry in Cleveland?


These stories are just from the last few days. There's much, much more because the right wing never waivers in their cultural war on us.

[undergroundpanther]

151. the right wing bullies

started the culture war and so eventually they will push until we HAVE to fight back,and if we tolerate threats of ricin ,there will be some asshole to up the ante.Tolerating the denial of our civil rights by these pieces of shit, says we will tolerate becoming second class citizens.And we will be hated and people won't care,than you know these social Darwinist thugs still won't be happy,with us oppressed,they will go farther they will do worse to us because a charismatic sociopath person who has a posse around him willing to kill for him and gaggle of true believers telling everyone we are evil is what the core of any culture war is about.
Social Domination of the Other..

These deluded,in denial gaggle of assholes that believe we are bad will do anything to rise up in their little hierarchy.By doing and repeating what they are told to think is terrible they get brownie points in their closed little 'culture'. Each one of these everyday people are thugs .These people will be able to tell themselves they are right to hate us and because of their god, they are by proxy justified in being abusive to us.

Truth is even if we all go back in the closet it will not satisfy the urge to dominate us and erase us in these true believer people,they will not stop hating because they believe what their leader says about us and so they do as they are told because thinking about why you hate gays is not accepted in their 'culture' at all.They are playing out a role the church or right wing think tank or right wing club gives them to do .That "role" and attendant belief that these so called leaders 'preach' can also create an illusion that god will take away responsibility and guilt from the followers so they can rationalize the most awful actions against us and delude themselves they are blameless because their leader is so much like god..to them.

This is what belief can do to warp a person, add power lust in the mix ,and phobias and it can get very bad very fast.

We must not accept the "role" of subordinate class,scapegoat or second class citizen.We must not play their game as they want it done.

Remember Hitler? He hated gays too.And a shit load of people committed genocide,normal people,nice people with evil beliefs that they used to tell themselves the systemic abuse and murder of people like us was justified.

These fundies are no different.
They started this"culture war" Let them try to tread on us,
Than WE end the 'culture war' by ending THEM, if that's what they want we should oblige them.

[anachro1]

159. GIVE IT RIGHT BACK

Although I live in San Francisco, I am soon retiring to my home town to be an openly visible and LOUD gay man. I think that the time has now come for all of us gay people who had to initally leave home to find acceptance, to return to their communities of origin and make Christians lives an ABSOLUTE HELL with our openness. Ricin the gay bars? Don't be surprised if your churches run into some 'unfortunateness.'


Support laws discriminating against gays?
WE. WILL. OUT. YOU.

[LittleClarkie]

153. This is a graphic a friend uses for his sig on another website

Perhaps you'd like to use it.

[elshiva]

154. Thank you.

:hug: