Life after a six-figure salary

[Liberal_in_LA]

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/01/news/economy/pay_cuts/index.htm?cnn=yes

Life after a six-figure salary

--------
Shaun Chedister, 30, is one of those people. Chedister was laid off from his job at Washington Mutual at the end of last year. After eight months of actively looking for work to help support his wife and four children, he accepted an offer from Ernst & Young even though the new position as an executive administrator paid less than half of what he was making before.

"My unemployment had run out, and I had to get something," he explained.

But the adjustment to making $66,000 a year from $125,000 has been hard. "For the last four to five years I'd been making six figures," Chedister said. "My lifestyle had been at a certain level."

Now Chedister said he's looking for a more affordable home. Last week one of the family's cars was repossessed after he got behind on the payments.

-----


After Jarrod Posner, 34, was laid off from his $110,000-a-year job as a mortgage lender for D.R. Horton, he had to change careers to find employment. After months of looking he took a job as an enrollment counselor at the University of Phoenix - a position that paid $33,000.

"I was actually thankful because I was getting a job, but at the same time my wife and I realized we had to make a lot of lifestyle changes," Posner said.

Since then, the Posners, who have two children, foreclosed on their home, moved into a rental property, downgraded from two cars to one and learned how to budget, he said. They've also given up their telephone and cable TV package. "All the little luxuries we don't enjoy anymore," he said.

[20score]

1. Too bad there so much of this going around.

K&R. (The underemployed are never talked about, but they should be.)

[firedupdem]

2. I know these stories all too well. n/t

[Quantess]

3. I wonder who they voted for in 2000 and 2004?

Just wondering.

[20score]

5. Yes, there is the poetic justice aspect for some. But not all.

I tell that to all the bushies I argue with. "If this happens to you, you deserve it, but it's not fair to the rest."

[Quantess]

7. Both those guys are making more than I do

and I know I didn't vote for Bush.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

135. Shit, 2008 while we're at it.

I'm sure they were just charmed by that Governor Palin, you betcha. :puke:

[fortyfeetunder]

4. Lifestyle changes?

Gave me pause that I was not living above my means and could survive a layoff.

[samdogmom]

11. Re: Living Above Means Comment

I know you weren't trying to be flippant...but if someone has been earning $125K for several years and bought a house and a car based upon this income...how is that living above the person's means? Are you suggesting that one should always pay CASH for major purchases? In other words, if you don't have cash to cover your purchase, you're living above your means?

I have great empathy for this poor soul...his income is just a tad better than half of what he used to be earning. My guess...anyone who suffers a 50% cut in pay is going to have some problems.

Good grief, our crazy Supreme Court Justice Roberts was claiming his six figure salary is inadequate today!

Anyway...this is just the start...more and more middle class workers are going to be pushed down a few levels in income unless the economy makes a fast turn-around! And, if that happens, YIKES!

[NashVegas]

38. "if you don't have cash to cover your purchase, you're living above your means"

Basically, yes.

The fellow in the story seems to be making the adjustment well, and you can probably safely bet that if he ever finds himself making a six-figure salary again, more of it will go into savings for financial independence than an X-Box live subscription.

[XemaSab]

70. I take it you don't live in California

Unless you have 500K plus burning a hole in your pocket for a house, you're going to have to take out a mortgage.

[NashVegas]

72. Nor Would I Want To

And that's just one reason. I have nothing but sympathy for those who have the mixed fortune to have been born in a state with such ridiculous real estate prices.

[CreekDog]

164. I didn't ask to be born here in expensive California and the more expensive Bay Area

and my family and friends are still here, so where the hell am I supposed to go?

and why the hell should anybody move away from family and friends and everything they know just because of money?

credit is best used for something which has a value greater than the amount of debt owed. secured debt has a good place in society. other people who judge us Californians for buying real estate that seems overpriced should remember that we saw rents increasing 10-20% per year and buying was a hedge against skyrocketing rents and evictions (due to rental properties being sold, owner move-ins).

those that mock and judge what middle class folks in California have had to do to keep a roof over their head and keep their families and extended families together are acting heartlessly and ignorantly.

sometimes i would love nothing more than to move away from here and go to Phoenix or Portland or somewhere, but who is supposed to look out for my aging relatives in the meantime?

people who judge families that have bought houses here, exactly why should those families be forced to leave? why should these families be considered irresponsible for simply wanting their kids and their kids' grandparents to be in the same community? is that what's considered selfish these days?

i am so sick of this shit. this whole discussion started over a family that had a middle class income here in California, and a relatively average house (though not average in price by national standards). they faced a 50% reduction in income and have done everything they can to simply hold on and it's not easy. now just because it may be even harder for others doesn't mean that these people aren't having a rough time or did anything wrong.

everyone on this thread who is lecturing, look in the damned mirror and tell yourself that you are better than the people you lecture. those of you that go to church, tell your God that you are better than the people you lecture. those of you that don't have a god, tell yourself that you are superior to the people you lecture. and if not, then be quiet and have some sympathy once in a while. this is what we have been fighting for after all.

[NashVegas]

224. I Was Not Mocking, Nor Judging

Anymore than someone who says, 'yes, it's true that 2+3=5.'

The credit industry allows people of lesser income to enjoy immediate gratification our grandparents never did. Want to have a 52-inch screen, just like the guy in the $1.5 million dollar house, even though you're in a trailer? Well, you CAN.

My resentment lies in the idea that people - both individuals, and corporate citizens - who are living above their means and making investment purchases based on theoretical future income are bringing the rest of us down with them.

As for the people in the OP stories, I will repeat: they seem to be doing the best they can to adjust, and I commend them.

[hfojvt]

105. almost everyone takes out a mortgage in every state

but you do not have to buy the most expensive house the realtor says you can afford. When I bought my house, I was very cognizant of the fact that I might not keep the job I was just starting. They were more secure in their job, but their company unexpectedly went under. It's better to do some planning and saving though. Although, like another poster said, probably no amount of planning is gonna help you when you lose 50% of your income, and it doesn't help that the housing market is way down so you probably cannot sell that house and get your money back and downsize to fit your income.

[XemaSab]

125. The cheapest house in Santa Barbara is 600,000

:shrug:

[Liberal_in_LA]

188. yep. And renting a 1 bedroom will run you about $1500. That's the cost of living in CA.

[CreekDog]

165. that's crass

incredibly so.

i carry a 300k mortgage on a 2 bedroom condo. believe me when i tell you if i didn't have that mortgage i'd be paying the same amount in rent (though when i first bought i could not get a rental due to stiff competition, though i had near 800 fico scores, never late rent and left my last rental with a letter from my landlord saying she'd never seen an apartment left in such good condition --that's ME, and *I* could not get a rental).

so i bought. same price monthly as renting and at the time, it was the only mode of getting a roof over my head that came through.

your flip attitude (despite "sympathy") has really angered me.

all i wanted to do was stay in the community where my friends and family were and not get priced out. you consider that above my means? :wtf:

that's what i wanted, not a fucking x-box. :rant:

[NashVegas]

225. I Choose Not To Sugar-Coat It

It sounds like you got a great deal, for California. If you're putting more than 25-30% of your monthly pay in mortgage + association fee, then yes, you are living above your means.

Our parents knew it.

Our grandparents knew it.

Who are we to think that rule does not apply to us?

A generation of debt-slaves.

[CreekDog]

239. prove it

because your ancestors thought it that makes it right?

[NashVegas]

248. Because Pretty Much Everyone

thinks it's right.


http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Banking/HomeFinancing/38-percent-burdened-by-housing-costs.aspx
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080201173806AAyNcza
http://www.thetaoofmakingmoney.com/2007/05/24/376.html

You can do all the searches yourself, and will basically come up with the same answer: if you're paying more than 30% of your income to housing, you are over-burdened.

The questions become: when and why did so many home-buyers and renters stop adhering to that formula and forcing the market to accommodate them, and instead accommodate the market?

[CreekDog]

249. Actually I'm at 28%

and many people who suffer a cut in income were within those guidelines before their job loss anyway.

further, the higher one's income, the less important that percentage becomes.

after all, the assumption is that you can't spend more than 30% on housing because you have to pay for food, cars, clothes, etc. but those things can be bought for the same amount whether you are in an expensive house or not. so what it boils down to is that as your income goes up, say a household makes 150k/year, with current employment, they can spend (and may need to) more than 30% on housing in order to even have a proper place to live.

because at 50k per year, 70% of remaining income is only $2800/month.

however, at 150k per year, if you spend 40% on housing, you are left with $5000/month.

that's the point.

and what you are failing to address is that often you can't find housing within the 25-30% guideline.

it's like my friend in graduate school said to me when i asked him why he used that $1000 line of credit for everyday needs.

he told me, "you gotta eat."

he had a point. i never asked such a stupid question again while standing in his $400/month apartment.

[NashVegas]

256. You're Doing Okay

I'm at 29%. My expenses are low enough that if I had to go on unenjoyment, I could squeak by without moving, but only *just.*

further, the higher one's income, the less important that percentage becomes.

because at 50k per year, 70% of remaining income is only $2800/month.

however, at 150k per year, if you spend 40% on housing, you are left with $5000/month.

By my numbers:

50k guy buys a loan that, over 30 years, costs $450k.

150k guy buys a loan that costs 1.8 m over 30 years.

If the 150k guy wants to piss away 900k or whatever in interest, that's his choice. The trouble is that choice affects other people by driving up real estate prices. Because the banker and the RE agent won that battle with Mr. $150k, they're going to carry it to Mr. $50k, too, and keep bringing costs up for Mr. $30k while they're at it.

[redqueen]

259. "driving up real estate prices"

But that's a good thing... right?

They're not homes, they're investments!

[NashVegas]

263. Maybe I Should Have Specified

"artificially" driving up?

;0

[sendero]

219. If you don't have living expenses..

.... (savings) for 6 months of no income, then you are living beyond your means. It is a concept that many have a hard time with, but they are going to learn all about it the very hard way..

[Ms. Toad]

269. Well, we bought our last house for approximately

30% of the mortgage we qualified for - deliberately so we could, and did, survive the unexpected things life tends to throw at us. That was 19 years ago.

Within a year of purchasing the house, though, my spouse was laid off and we ended up living on about half of what we expected to be living on. We had to tap our savings because we chose to continue our plan to give our daughter a full time parent for the first five years of her life - otherwise with even a minor second income we would not even have had to take money out of savings for that 5 year period of far less than expected income.

Not everyone who makes $125k a year (and we weren't even making close to that) would have "some problems" if their salary were cut in half by 50%. Some of us purchase well below what we can afford, don't purchase every luxury available, save for retirement, and so on. I don't feel particularly sorry for anyone living at the top of their salary who starts out making more than is reasonably needed to live on and chooses not to prepare for an unexpected job loss or decline in salary. (People making a subsistence living who are suddenly lose half - or even less than that of their income - do have my sympathy).

As an aside, wee still live there, even though our income has approximately doubled from what it was at the time of purchase (so theoretically, we could now "afford" about 6 times the house we now live in. Not planning on moving any time soon.

What does make me angry is that because I have not been spending all the money I earn, colleges feel free to tap my savings for college tuition for my daughter - while handing scholarships to the children of folks like the guy in the article who has been spending every penny he makes and thus has no assets.

[chucktaylor]

6. Boo flippin Hoo

A personal safety net. since you have the income, is a smart idea.

[20score]

8. That's not the point. And I address this to all the future posts that look at just the dollar amount

As higher paying jobs are eliminated, most are replaced with lower paying jobs. It will effect you, or someone you know. The same can be said of of jobs paying $100,000.00 or $50,000.00.
It's time to get into the mindset people had in the 1930's.

[Fire1]

201. The rest of the country, with the exception of New England, have

been livin' like the 1930's all along b/c their incomes don't meet inflation prices. Now that prices are beginning to come down to meet the avg. income level, people have no jobs.

[revolve]

9. Fuck em

Learn to budget. There are a lot of people doing a lot worse. I do not feel sorry for them in the least. Fuck em

[Joe the Liberal]

10. Ditto that.........

They get no sympathy from me, "OMG you have to live on $60,000 a year now, God save us from this nightmare", please. They will be fine, there are people who are in a far worse situation.

[CreekDog]

27. a family can't live here on 60k per year

without being in poverty.

[Maine-ah]

63. 60k a year

and I'd have no financial worries. I could pay everything off, and start saving for retirement and my kid's education.

[CreekDog]

167. not if you lived here

you are comparing apples and oranges.

if i lived where you did and in your circumstance i could handle a big pay cut.

if you had to live where i live, you'd need a lot more money.

hell, i thought middle and working class folks were in this together --i'm not sure you think so.

would you prefer it if those of us that made 60k or more voted with the very affluent and voted Republican policies that screw everybody making less than us?

think about it.

[Maine-ah]

229. I was just pointing out that it's frickin' cheap to live in Maine.

chill out.

[CreekDog]

244. maybe you should

because i was simply pointing out where your statement begs the question.

[Liberal_in_LA]

189. Run the same numbers on minimum $2000 rent for apt. large enough for family, $150 mo car insurance,

gas for long commute, etc... then tell us how you'd been paying everything off and saving on 60K.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

193. You Must Come To Learn That The World Is Larger Than Yours Alone.

Yay for you. You could do it. Many others depending on their family situation and where they live couldn't. If my only income was 60k, we'd be in really bad shape right now. Try opening your mind a little.

[Maine-ah]

231. I shall explain a little better as to what I was getting at.

it's cheap to live up here, and obviously I'm not pulling down 60k per year. We pull 40k per year and are in financial distress. So I perfectly understand the issue at hand. I have not always lived in Maine, I have lived in other areas of the country that are more expensive, and contain a very large population. Most everyone I know is in the same financial shape we're in, and it's not getting better.

Try not being such a dink sometimes. :hi:

[hfojvt]

109. the article does not say where they are from

and I really would like to see income stats from your county because I would wager that even in your county there are many people making less, and many making much less, and I seriously doubt that they are all living in poverty.

[CreekDog]

170. those were the census stats for my county

81k is median household income per year.

average income for males 51k, average income for females 40k.

per capita income averages 36k.

enough stats for you?

2000/month for a 2 bedroom apartment if you can find one. that's 24,000 a year just for the roof over your head, before you heat it, before you bring food into it, before your kids get clothes, before you drive you car, take the bus or ride on BART.

now what say you?

[truedelphi]

184. Unless a person lives in California, they really cannot understand

We left the Bay Area because not only were housing prices ridiculous, even food was. When I was out on the road and needed something to eat, a bagel bought with a skimpy layer of creme cheese might be $ 4.

The first few months we lived here in Lake County, we would drive into a nearby small town just for the luxury of paying $ 4 for lunch, and for having enough to brown bag some of it home! We felt like we had won the lottery.

Most affordable housing in the Bay Area is only affordable by comparison. And if you need to work in the City, but can only afford a place on the outskirts, then you have to factor in the cost of the commute. Commutes are expensive, in terms of time, stress and money. What a simply awful lifestyle!!

[CreekDog]

199. they are smart enough to know better

how would they like it if people in China told them they got nothing to complain about since they are in the USA?

in fact, most of the people in the world could say that.

and these posters KNOW that and they say it anyway.

[truedelphi]

265. Actually I have had one friend who came here fromChina in the late eighties.

She had thought that our country was going to be the land of milk and honey. And even though she married well (Part of her divorce settlement was a very nice condo) she could not get over the fact that in the USA we paid such exorbitatnt amounts for healthcare.

In China, the average worker in the late eighties was paying the equivalent of $ 80 per month for housing. While in the Bay Area, $ 80 would get you two or three required credit checks while you looked for housing.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Missy Vixen]

14. I know I can always count on so much compassion

from those at DU. :sarcasm:

Does it occur to any of you that those with the incomes above actually spent money in their communities, helping others keep THEIR jobs and businesses going? Of course not. It's more fun to demonize ANYONE that makes more than $5.00 an hour.

Julie

[shugah]

31. i guess misery loves company?

"if you have or had a job making more money than i do, then you deserve it! no one, under any circumstances, should earn a decent or living wage. if you make a 6-figure salary, you are a rich republican - no exceptions!"

it's bizarre. i can't believe the responses on this thread. i can't.

[hfojvt]

116. so $100,000 is considered a 'living wage'?

am I considered dead then at $12,000?

Let me just say that for me, and probably a few others, both $125,000 and $66,000 are not just "more money that I make" but two or three (or in my case, five or ten) times as much as I make.

[cottonseed]

119. I think it should be -- unless you form your opinion by what Corp CEOs tell you.

The international free market system thanks you.

[hfojvt]

132. I think that is ridiculous

For one thing, Americans already consume and waste too many of the world's resources. For another thing, there's costs involved in salaries. If the people at Burger World go from $7 an hour to $21 an hour, then the dollar menu goes to the $3 menu and there are two options 1) my salary goes from $13.44 an hour to $21 an hour, which leaves me much worse off, or 2) my salary goes from $13.44 an hour to $39 an hour which leaves everything the same, only at higher numbers. The thing is, if you take Wal-mart's profits and CEO salaries and divide them among 300,000 employees it's not a huge gain for the employees. It doesn't even triple their wages which would still leave them at only $48,000 a year in this area.

[shugah]

168. i'm sorry that you do not make six figures

if you did, i would not be bitter or envious of you. :hi:

[Naturyl]

174. Yeah. $66,000 is about ten times my income.

Call me cold-hearted, but the tears just don't come.

[lumberjack_jeff]

178. The US gdp per capita is $46,000. There are undoubtedly more fair ways to spread it around...

But the pie is only so big. If $100,000 is a "living wage" then half of workers will get no wage at all.

[dana_b]

257. ditto

there evidently is little compassion for those people. Maybe people who make these cruel comments are going through very tough times and figure "who cares? I've been going through this for ages"? I don't know but it's very sad that we are like that towards others.

[lumberjack_jeff]

177. There's a big gulf between demonization and being unsympathetic to their "plight". n/t

[Number23]

187. Makes you want to just run and hide, doesn't it??

I know I can always count on so much compassion from those at DU.

Some of the most judgmental MF'ers in the whole damn world... It's SO much easier to judge and criticize than to exert even one scintilla of sympathy and human compassion.

Folks are struggling right now. And these are working folks just like the vast majority of us all, even though they once held high-paying jobs. My heart goes out to everyone having a hard time in this economy.

[20score]

15. Look at my other posts.

Then, think for a minute or two.

[CreekDog]

28. i'm not getting upset over a couple knucklehead posters

lecturing others about how to budget.

:boring:

[Zodiak]

65. Do you remember the Bankruptcy Bill argument here on DU?

Half of the posts were people bragging about how they have their financial house in order while looking down their nose at those that did not. They saw no problem in the change of laws because it punished deadbeats. There was little attempt made by these people to see the situation from another perspective other than self-righteousness.

...and of course with the Dems help, the bill passed....and ruined our economy. Since the debate was confined to whether "deadbeats" deserve a break or not, opposition to the bill had little chance. No one cared about medical issues, divorce, etc......punish the deadbeats was the mantra of the day.

I personally do not understand the knee-jerk need to preen oneself while denigrating others, but alas, it apparently is part of our culture and knows no political lines.

Those that still engage in this behavior have obviously learned nothing about the ill effects of their attitude towards their fellow Americans, even with our economy in shambles around us.

[CreekDog]

169. i remember it well and i find that attitude troubling

and i keep money in the bank, don't carry credit card debt, can pay off my car loan in cash if i wanted to, live modestly, etc.

but as far as lecturing others on how to spend their money and tell them they get what they deserve? hell no. there but for the grace of God go I.

[redqueen]

233. You did see this though right?

The Posners "downgraded from two cars to one and learned how to budget..."

So... the comment in post 9 perhaps wasn't such a lecture as advice that the Posners might have done well to have taken before they joined the rest of us in economic hell.

:shrug:

[CreekDog]

241. don't stick up for someone who says "Fuck Em"

give me a break.

fact is a big part of real estate costs involves how good a school district you are in.

if in order to "budget" for any catastrophe, you send your kids to a much worse school district (and in California there are VERY BAD ones out there) while making a decent income, then that person is a fool.

[redqueen]

243. Yes, I know they were rude...

I was only pointing out the truth of the need for people to learn to budget (even if they make enough money that they don't directly feel the need to), and the validity of that advice as directed to Posner.

[CreekDog]

247. but i don't think the folks in the main article were arguing this at all

the only difference is that they didn't budget in the past for a 60k annual income, but they are budgeting for it now.

that said, there is no way to have a family and budget properly on 60k annual income. there is no way to have the basics and put what you need into retirement. to me that's where admonishments to budget fall on their face.

[Laelth]

51. No sympathy here.

I am not demonizing anyone. I certainly wish we could all be rich, but I have little sympathy for those who, after a pay cut, are still making more than I am.

:dem:

-Laelth

[cottonseed]

77. Than you are an ABSOLUTE loser!

I shake my head reading this. The mega rich thank you for pushing down salary expectations. Idiot who drags down their fellow man, while the there's men on yachts wiping their asses with paper worth more than you'll make in a lifetime.

[hfojvt]

117. perhaps you do not understand how the world works

pushing up salary expectations does not seem like a good thing to me. For a $100,000 person to not realize that they are relatively very well off means they are looking up rather than looking down. They are as much a part of the problem as the super-rich. The top 5% get 22% of the income, but the top 20% get 43%. Meaning that the 5-20% group is grabbing a fair share of the pie too. Leaving that much less for the bottom 80%.

[cottonseed]

122. I understand it pretty well, I just don't believe all Americans should live below the poverty line.

I live in the Bay Area of California and 100K is middle class. It's a decent life that all Americans should strive for, it's called the American dream. If you believe the American dream is to further pull everyone down to below a comfortable living wage then I'm afraid you don't understand very well what we should be working towards. The money is out there, we are a richer country than we were at any time in history and all that wealth is concentrated at the top. Now, instead of surrendering that wealth to the rich I suggest you re-target your ire towards the super-rich and understand that the 100K person is not the enemy.

[hfojvt]

137. I live in the non-Bay area and $50,000 is middle class here

Oddly enough, when I read stories I look at them from my POV instead of imagining that I live in the Bay area. People making $50,000 here probably live at the same comfort level as people making $100,000 there. Since less than 10% of the country makes over $100,000 in HOUSEHOLD income, I suggest that it is your experience which is way off the norm, and not mine. YMMV.

[cottonseed]

141. Yea.. regionally, I'm arguing from a whole different perspective.

I got out of line, but I do want to have everyone strive for a good salary. Whether it be 50k or 100k. I wrote this in another comment on this OP but it works with this thread as well:

In the interest of full disclosure. Right now I'm at half of what I was making 3 years ago. I took off and started my own consultancy because I wasn't satisfied at what I was doing. Work is harder on your own because you aren't backed by the pricing power of a larger organization. You earn the direct value of the service you provide.

Reason I am vigorously defending the 100K number is because as it stands now and where I'm living (regionally: SF/CA) it's hard to live comfortably and I am not saving anything at all right now. I believe that at the 100K number that allowed for peace of mind and the ability to aggressively save money for both retirement and any emergency that might arrive. I believe every American should live that well.

Now, I'm not defending this salary level at the expense of those in poverty. What I am defending is what I believe to be a very good and fair salary level for the region of the country I live in and something that many can strive for. I don't feel superior, I'm working back towards something that I don't think I should be ashamed of.

[NashVegas]

226. You Know What, Though?

In the area you live in, or nearby, there are an awful lot of $100k computer software designers who made programs that put a lot of people in the $30-$60k range, in other parts of the country, out of work entirely.

In my case, personally, computer programs now manage tasks in such a way that I can never go to management and say, "this improvement in our business is directly attributable to my performance and innovations," and get a raise or a promotion based on that.

I'd love to be able to say we're all in this together but some obviously are not, and don't even realize it. Or they do and have allowed themselves to be numb to it.

[newtothegame]

54. Well, I don't feel sorry for them, but I also don't feel like "fuck em"...

We're all humans. In my humble opinion.

[cottonseed]

76. Yea.. what true American needs a living wage anyways

The one's you should be fucking is the top 1% you ass hat! not American's with a decent salary. Thanks for helping the mega rich push down salary expectations. Idiot.

[fed_up_mother]

215. No kidding!

[Fla Dem]

93. They may have been budgeting, on their former salary.

They may have been living within their means at their former income levels. They may even have been saving at their former income level. That's the unfortunate aspect of this whole mess. People who had reasonable expectations for their future, based on their circumstances, now find those circumstance drastically changed. It does not sound like they were whining, just acknowledging they had to change their lifestyle based on their changed circumstances. This could happen to anyone you know, and maybe care for. We all try to live within our means, depending on our income levels. We buy cars, homes etc based on our current circumstances, and our expect ions of the future. This story could have been about someone earing $75,000, $50,000 or $30,000. The dynamics are the same. If your income is cut in half, you have to change your lifestyle.

I don't know why you felt the need to give them the verbal middle finger. They did nothing to you.

[redqueen]

236. The Posners only learned how to budget after the reduction in income.

It's in the OP.

[Bravo Zulu]

12. He looks like a college republiCON!

Shaun Chedister's new job pays $66,000, a far cry from the $125,000 he was making before.

[Medusa]

26. So now we judge people here at DU by what they look like?

:eyes:

[Missy Vixen]

80. That's been going on for a long time now

After all, those who aren't hawt aren't human, are they?

:mad:
Julie

[redqueen]

223. Now?

What, you didn't know anyone with a shaved head was a racist nazi skinhead?

This unfortunate example of primitive behavior isn't unknown... yes, even here on DU.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. Four kids and he's only 30.

Fundie or LDS most likely. Fits the Repuke profile to a tee.

Fuck him.

[Maine-ah]

64. huh, by the time my parents were 30

they had 4 kids, I was the last. Life long democrats too.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

66. That was then.

This is now.

In 2008, if you have 4 kids and you are 30 or under, you are almost definitely a fundie and a Republican. And your name is probably Palin.

[Dreamer Tatum]

240. You're an idiot.

And I don't need to know any of your demographics to make that incredibly accurate
assessment.

[20score]

13. I love your posts. They're socially relevant.

[Liberal_in_LA]

103. Thanks!

:hi:

[BR_Parkway]

16. Interesting that no one is commenting about the jobs that they had

and how the value/pay scale of them was tied so directly into exploiting other people's finances for personal gain.

I don't know if either of them did anything wrong specifically, but WaMu went belly up after years of promoting growth at any cost (with the rest of us picking up the tab) and then there's a mortgage broker who used to make $110,000 per year doing what exactly? Commissions from houses where people were encouraged to lie on their applications because they could always sell or refi in a few years?

Maybe the reason they can't find jobs similar in pay to what they had is because the jobs they had never actually had the value to them that lined up with the pay they got. While I do have empathy for them and their families as they scale back, I still find it hard to have sympathy since they were just hooked on that bubble mentality that the party would never end.

[Blue_Tires]

18. yeah, i bet dollars to yen that the mortgage broker

made some good coin during the drunken orgy by giving half-million dollar loans to yahoos making 28 grand a year...

[elehhhhna]

78. actually, he worked for the mort arm of a huge homebuilder...which generally means

a fairly conservative mort. co. Captive finance co's attached to massive, profitable companies cherry-pick the good credit risks. The stinkers wander off to findsharkier brokers. Just saying.

[oldnslo]

19. I think you nailed it--their jobs were their own bubble.

I retired on half of my working income, and am doing just fine. I planned first, bought major items for cash, and in spite of a house payment, all is well. Planning is everything.

[Baby Snooks]

29. Planning doesn't work for everyone...

Quite a few planned well and still ended up having to make major "lifestyle" adjustments. People who make six-figure incomes do plan. They just don't plan on losing value on their equities or earning half the interest on interest-bearing accounts or losing their jobs at 40. Life ends in this country at 40. You are basically dead at 50.

The attitude that these people simply didn't plan well is really rather elitist. And really not reflective of what most are going through.

Many have lived "within their means" and saved and by circumstance rather than choice still lost it all.

It also depends on where you live. Some areas are more expensive than others. Some areas are less expensive than others. $1 million buys you a 1,000 square foot bungalow in most of Los Angeles or a 1,000 square foot condo in most of Manhattan. $1 million buys you a 10,000 square foot mansion in many parts of the Midwest. The cost of living is higher in Los Angeles and Manhattan. The cost of living is lower in most of the Midwest. You don't say where you live.

[NashVegas]

250. Here's a Simple Way to Figure Out

If the financial advisor ever told a client to place a buy on a company that was likely to cut jobs in the near future, let's just call it what it is: karma.

[Blue_Tires]

17. wow...he was on UI after losing a 125k per year job?

and here i was feeling deathly ashamed and embarrassed for applying for the first time in my life after losing my 31k per year job...depending on how he and the wife handled money during the good times, 66 grand shouldn't be that bad...

[KillCapitalism]

20. They were probably spending like drunken sailors.

If it's so "terrible" for them to go down to a $66K income, you know they had to have been living large on the $125K income. They probably had the 4,000 sq. ft. McMansion, a BMW & a Lexus SUV, wifey had the latest Prada handbags, etc.

[Patiod]

35. Doesn't sound like you live in a major metro area

People on the West Coast and Northeast making $125,000 are living well - maybe they do have one of those (mortgaged) McMansions -- but they aren't the ones driving "a BMW and a Lexus" and buying "Prada handbags".

I'm not particularly sympathetic to ANYONE who had a hand in the housing bubble - you can't tell me these mortgage lenders didn't know that what they were doing was unsupportable and would have to come to an eventual reckoning - but what I'm hearing is "these people earn more than me, screw them". Broad, broad brushes.

[MajorChode]

158. You've obviously never made $125K....

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but if you think $125K will buy all the things you mentioned, you are sadly mistaken.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

194. Highly Ignorant Assumption.

I'll leave it at that.

[dana_b]

260. $125,000 is NOT a lot

where they lived and with 4 kids. please... can we all stop judging these people on what they look like, what jobs they had, where they live, what they spent? Can't we all see a little of ourselves or someone we know in them? It's hard times for everyone and we need to stop blaming others.

[JerseygirlCT]

261. Well said. nt

[rucky]

22. They don't mind their taxes going to benefit themselves.

Just not other people.

[Dreamer Tatum]

246. What the hell does that mean?

[machI]

24. Unemployment should be for those people who are employed at real jobs

I can't see a account executive with a white shirt and tie, getting unemployment payments.

The jerk should have invested part of his fat paycheck, and lived off the extra money he socked away while looking for a job.

[Patiod]

36. And are you going to be sitting on the "real job" judiciary?

Who qualifies? Only those who wear uniforms to work? What kind of uniforms? Only those made of polyester?

Or would you go on income, and give unemployment INSURANCE only those earning below a certain amount (even though we all pay into unemployment INSURANCE?)

[ProfessorGAC]

47. What?????

People who wear ties don't do real work? Every single one of them? Sheesh what a silly thing to say.
GAC

[gollygee]

50. Also, execs with white shirts and ties make a hell of a lot more than $125k

$125k is more of a "casual office" clothing level. Golf shirt and khaki pants.

And yes they do "real work".

[ProfessorGAC]

60. I Know Some Folks From A Bookkeeping Firm. . .

. . .by my house. I guarantee you they don't make more than 125k each, but they wear a shirt and tie. They think it instills confidence among their customers.

So, there are folks who make well under that who wear shirt/tie to work.

And, like you said, they actually do work for a living.
GAC

[gollygee]

61. I was thinking after I posted

I know some people who work in sales whom I am SURE don't make anywhere near $125k who wear pretty expensive looking suits and ties.

[ProfessorGAC]

166. Then We're In Complete Agreement

Have a nice New Year weekend.
GAC

[Missy Vixen]

84. My husband worked fourteen hours a day

He didn't wear a tie, but he also didn't make minimum wage.

How dare you suggest anyone who's paid into UI shouldn't be able to draw it. Frankly, it's none of your business.

Julie

[closeupready]

155. Thank you. I agree 100%. UI is NOT welfare, people, so get over yourself.

It's a mandatory government-administered wage loss insurance program. They only people who 'should' be entitled to it are those who pay the premiums - workers. Yes, there are workers making $125k.

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. Why would you feel ashamed...it's a part of the social contract

Only Republican ideology produces shame when you seek what's owed you.

[Blue_Tires]

210. yeah, in retrospect

I made it too much of a "pride" issue...I guess I bought into the gop "you're a lazy mooch and a failure if you ever have to use it" mentality...And like a lot of other Americans, I have frequently fallen into the trap of pinning too much of my self-worth to a job or my bank account....

[Statistical]

44. Why would you feel bad for using UI?

That is what it is there for. Your employer budgets it into the cost of your salary.
So regardless if you see it or note you pay for it. About 4% a year, every year you work.

IF I made $1.2 million a year and become unemployed I would collect UI until I found another job.

[stlsaxman]

21. Welcome to the Real World, motherf*ckers...

and a big boo hoo to them.

"For the last four to five years I'd been making six figures," Chedister said. "My lifestyle had been at a certain level."

What pisses me off most is that they went on unemployment compensation... didn't they save a penny?!?!?

Boo fucking hoo...

Bobby Zimmerman had it right-

"the First Ones now
will later be last
for the times they are a-changin'"

[cottonseed]

79. The mega rich thank you, you Idiot.

Here's an idea, let's take down American's with decent salaries and continue to call ourselves progressives. Everyone in America should be making 100K+ you moron. Jeezus, we'll never win.

[cottonseed]

82. x

x

[stlsaxman]

227. I live quite effectively and happily on +/- 30k...

these are greedy bastards getting their due.

Why in the name of GOD should "everyone in America" make $100K??? Do they need that much for food and shelter??? if so... something is terribly amiss here.

oh and btw- Fuck you- I am not an idiot.

[PassingFair]

275. YOU try to put two kids through college at today's rates on $30,000/year.

You are not an idiot, but you are probably not
supporting children.

[redqueen]

228. "Everyone in America should be making 100K+ you moron."

Wow.

Will some economists please show up and educate us all?


I'm not sure I have this correctly but as I recall... didn't Clinton talk about making the world more fair, as in raising the standard of living in other countries which have so far been mostly exploited or just ignored (primarily for the benefit of first-world nations)?

Didn't he flat-out say that this would necessarily mean the adjustment of the standard of living here? And by adjustment... that means lowering?

:shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

195. They're People Just Like You. They're Not Motherfuckers. Your Childish Bitterness Has Made Your

arguments ignorant.

[stlsaxman]

230. These two are a banker and a mortgage broker respectively... in a word, they are thieves.

Granted- thieves are "people", too. Why so vehemently defend their greed?

How progressive of you. :eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

232. So Closed Minded.

I feel for you.

[stlsaxman]

237. Please don't waste your time. You'd do more good actively helping others that need it.

[fed_up_mother]

220. Even with savings you can go on unemployment

Unemployment insurance is not the same thing as welfare.

[gollygee]

23. Wow. This thread is harsh.

My husband makes that much and we'd have trouble if he lost his job. And not because we have a McMansion - our house is only 1200 square feet and we're trying to pay it off as soon as possible because we realize there is no job security in this world. But things would be hard for us and we'd have to make lifestyle changes too and adjust to the new salary level. And not everyone who makes 6 figures votes for Bush, FFS.

We've talked about what we'll do if this happens to us. But that doesn't mean we're living beyond our means or that we'd deserve it somehow if my husband lost his job.

[LSK]

39. why dont you make lifestyle changes BEFORE you lose the job??

You would build up your savings too and might retire faster if you do not lose the job. I can take a $20k paycut right now, because even thou I got raises, I never took for granted I would be employed forever and I obsess about savings.

[gollygee]

45. We DO save

And, as I said, we should have our house paid off before too long which would help. But if we didn't have his salary we'd still have to make more changes. We don't take for granted we'll have this forever. Where did I say that? I specifically said that there is no such thing as job security.

[XemaSab]

73. You're a single man

It's easy for you to control your expenses.

[Patiod]

43. It's the DU mirror image of some of the Republicans I know

Republicans who think anyone NOT earning over $125,000 just isn't working hard enough, or is making "wrong" decisions, or is just morally degenerate.

Only on DU, if you're making over $50,000 you're a capitalist pig who deserves to lose their job and get their comeuppance.

Hey - there's a middle ground, and it's more complicated than either the Republican or DU view.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

49. Very true. And most of them don't even make that much themselves!

They have Joe the Plumber Syndrome. I used to call it being a $50000 millionaire. It never ceases to astound me how guys who will probably never earn a six figure income in their lives will identify with and vote with the fatcats. Just for fun, I've questioned a few of them about why they are not rich yet, since it's only a matter of intelligence and hard work. "So, are you admitting that you are dumb and lazy?"

[MajorChode]

160. They have a standard answer for that

I've asked the same question. They will simply tell you that at least they aren't on welfare and they aren't going to vote for the party that gives all "their" money to the welfare queens who are living better than they are on the government tit. Then you hit them with facts like welfare takes only 1% of the federal budget, and 2/3rds of those receiving welfare are children which they refuse to believe because the fat junkie has convinced them otherwise. It's like arguing with someone over religion. They have a closed mind and as long as they allow themselves to be manipulated by the right's puppetmasters, they will continue to vote against their own best interests.

[Missy Vixen]

87. Patiod, you speak truth

I'd like someone to explain to me what difference there is between the smug and supercilious that hang out here, and the FR.

At least we know what to expect from them, huh?

Julie

[hfojvt]

124. these people did not just lose their jobs

The one lost a $125,000 job and later got a $66,000 job. I am supposed to feel sorry for somebody who makes $66,000???? I am supposed to feel sorry for somebody who made $500,000 over the last four years??? When my lifetime earnings are $214,882 for 24 years of work? It's one thing to not have sympathy for those who are better off than yourself. It's another thing to believe that those worse off than yourself created their own problems, based on only anecdotal evidence of somebody else who did create some of their own problems.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

154. I love this post!

This is so true. :)

[Number23]

200. "there's a middle ground, and it's more complicated than either the Republican or DU view"

:applause: :headbang: :applause: :headbang: :applause:

:fistbump:

[fed_up_mother]

218. thank you!

:) :) :-) ;-) ;) :P :P :9 O8) :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :hi: :hi: :hi: :yourock: :headbang: :fistbump:


:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Dreamer Tatum]

242. Yup...Insecurity vs. Jealousy

People on both sides get very petty and very sanctimonious, don't theu?

[NashVegas]

251. I Know

There are a lot of professionals here - college educated people - who apparently made the *horrendous* mistake of going for careers they felt would be personally fulfilling, meaning, they'd be hitting it big if they ever made more than $55k a year. If they make even $45k, they're lucky.

This is the middle class that's getting squeezed and squeezed to the point where charette message boards talk about the need for "workforce housing" for the "service class."

http://lacourandcompany.com/sprucecreek5.html

I know that we should feel sympathy for anyone who gets canned at any level but it's hard to have that for anyone who actively contributes to the stagnant wages of average income earners.

[Lorien]

254. Yep, that about sums it up. nt

[HughBeaumont]

25. Can't really form an opinion without hearing details.

The article really lacks specifics. Like, for instance, where did they live? If they lived in, say, Ohio, then 125 grand a year is major bank no matter which part of the state you're in. Even with four kids, one could easily save money on that salary if you're not blowing it on creature comforts like Beemers and wasteful McCastles. Now, if we're talking within a nth-mile radius of NYC, then $125 grand a year ain't so much, especially if you have 4 kids. Savings is probably a lot harder to come by there.

Or, were the two subjects part of one-earner households? If you're on UI after $125 grand a year, then I'm guessing this was a one-income household (the other giveaway is four kids and the age of the adults, which means infants/toddlers, which means stay-at-home mom). Then again, the cost of living is so through the roof that even $125k a year as sole income doesn't cut it as far as home ownership goes in some parts of the country.

Either way, making wage concessions should not be something this economy should be promoting as the norm. Lost income to the economy is lost income to the economy. Replacing a decent salary with one that barely covers the cost of living doesn't help the economy and doesn't allow the subjects to get on board with financial planning and savings.

These exceptions notwithstanding, on average, the American worker does NOT make too much money. It amazes me that people think $50,000 a year in any area is a great salary. That's actually what the average American SHOULD be making in real dollars had wages kept up with inflation, productivity and the cost of living these past three decades. Instead, said average American makes $1000 LESS than they did in 1979. But no. The problem is, "we make too much and the rich are taxed too much". :eyes:

[Berry Cool]

30. Sadly, Hugh, you know that making $50K just about anywhere in Ohio,

outside of the wealthiest suburban neighborhoods, seems to qualify you as a Rockefeller in the eyes of your peers. They think you are "rich" because you're not making the $15 to $25K that seems to be par for the course in much of this state.

Pathetic, isn't it?

[HughBeaumont]

33. I can't even imagine how people live on $25 thousand a year.

That barely covers bills in an apartment, even in Ohio. What if they had kids?

I make a little under 50k and so does the wife. Tell you what, we're sure not living very extravagantly. My long-since-paid-for Cavalier (they don't make them anymore) is heading for it's 12th birthday and I have no plans to get a new one soon. Hey, it still runs . . . one less bill, right? My cheap 1200 sq ft home is pushing 60 and needs basement waterproofing that I won't be able to afford anytime this decade.

She STILL has student loan debt from 1996. Luckily, it's not in the multi-thousand range, but the fact that it's still there angers me. We're pretty much in the same place as a lot of people, only we have less kids (1). Oh yeah, and I don't even know how his college is going to get paid for, since we can't save anything because of repairs and emergencies that seem to pop up at the most inopportune times.

If I lost my job, which seems to be accepted practice nowadays (and that's really sad), I don't think we'd be too bad a shape because my wife would still be working. In crap economies, her line of work does wonderfully, sorry to say. It'll be just like 2001 when I got fired . . . pay bills, do without and that's it . . . and hope it doesn't last long. I was off for 5 months and was lucky to find a job. 97% of the applicants for my position at the time were unemployed.

It's just wrong that workers have to concede so much, but no one seems to bat an eyelash at exorbitant CEO pay, which only seems to skyrocket as time goes on no matter HOW bad things get.

If this last decade teaches us anything, it's to never let a Reaganomic-embracing politician anywhere NEAR the White House.

[Missy Vixen]

191. If they lived in Seattle and made $125,000

Their money didn't go far. I'm basing my assumption on the fact the guy worked for WaMu, whose headquarters were mainly in Seattle.

The median price for a house here was over $400K till the middle of last year, for instance. Plus, they have four kids.

It's amazing to me as well that there are so many here spitting out the RW talking points: $50K a year is just "too much money".

Julie

[HughBeaumont]

213. Everyone should read the book "The Big Squeeze" by Steven Greenhouse.

An eye-opener as to what really goes down for the modern worker. For every guy who makes $125k a year and gets fired, there are about 20 more making 35-45 thousand a year that are also getting fired and are also replacing them with jobs that are either just equal or pay lower than their last one . . . months down the road. Either way, it's lost dollars to the economy since the cost of living, productivity and inflation keeps increasing steadily.

If wages kept pace with productivity, the average full time worker would be earning 58,000/year. Instead, he/she earns 36,000/yr. in real dollars . . . which amounts to 5% LESS in real dollars than they earned in 1979, while working more hours.

It's quite telling that conservaturd pundits never seem to be able to include in their "those greedy workers are fleecin' the noble CEO with their hoity-toity demands for a livin' wage! The NERVE!" screed the determinants of inflation, tax-to-cost-of-living burden and productivity. Our tax system now is very regressive in terms of that second factor while the price of necessities skyrocket. Turns out the reason for our bad lot in life is not us buying big screen TVs or cell phone plans for our 7-year-olds, but our soaring cost-of-living burden (housing, transportation, utilities, groceries, etc) compared to the not-even-taxed-enough rich.

Giving the wealthy all the money has not led to hiring or building plants (well, not in America, specifically); it's led to mass hoarding and wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age. Plus if one looks at history, wealth inequality almost always leads to . . . anyone? Anyone? Yes, an economic collapse!

If the rich aren't being taxed and they're firing everyone and there's very little in the way of real job creation here, where honestly did the conservatives think the money to, you know, run this country was going to come from? WHERE?

And people wonder why there's a 10 trillion dollar debt.

[LeftHander]

34. Repukes like it when people fall off the ladder of success half way up....

that way their rich friends get richer as they pick up the left overs....

Like in monopoly when you bankrupt someone...you get their junk. Same deal only on a much larger scale.

the is what Conservatives like....big BIG scales....so all the crooked cheating is hidden in a quagmire of arcane financial rules.

IN the end...the new entrants into the middle class during the Clinton years are back where they started in the Reagen years, in many cases back beyond where they started.

[DS1]

37. Living it

Still. Not 6 figures, but damn close. Now at less than half.

Still, I didn't buy a flashy car, or a big house, or any other huge expenditure.

[Mari333]

40. I live on 900 dollars a month

its do able.

[Missy Vixen]

192. With all due respect,

your profile says you live in Michigan. I'm sure it's not a picnic, but the cost of living in Michigan is cheaper than it is in many other parts of the country.

I also hope the employment situation in Michigan improves ASAP.

Julie

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

196. Want A Scooby Snack?

Might be doable for you, but it isn't for many others.

[Waiting For Everyman]

41. All of this is... nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

These people are no different than those who were foreclosed on last year... the ones everybody criticized for living above their means. (Everybody's living above their previous means after they lose a job, or have a major illness, or a death, or a divorce, or can't sell their house when they have to move.) That was nothing but a propaganda meme. And this is nothing but the wake from that spreading. Because these people didn't care about what happened last year, it came to them. It was entirely predictable. And until we stop allowing mass numbers of people to lose their homes, the rings will keep widening. Count on it. We could've stopped this before it got to the $100K tier by stopping it at the $35K tier. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts these guys were against that. And lots of people are still against stopping it... because somebody other than them might get a break. God forbid, we couldn't have THAT now, could we?

This is direct cause and effect. But the point is, nobody expects catastrophic conditions when they sign a contract, do they? Duh. But we act like we can't grasp that simple reality. And what's worse, we make no provision for it in our laws. We set ourselves up for failure by expecting nothing but trouble-free lives in our transaction laws. There is no room for less-than-perfect in our credit scores which drives everything else. That is preposterous stupidity. Well now these guys are less than perfect. What a shock. They thought it couldn't happen to them because they're such advanced Darwinian specimens. What utter bullshit! Yet our whole system is based on it, and people like this helped create it as a pretext to rip off people who mades less than them... and now the sinking of those ships is sinking their own. Brilliant.

[azmouse]

46. The assumptions made about a six figure income here are astounding.

My husband has been earning over six figures for many years. We have a nice house but not a McMansion. We have cars that are 14 years old and 9 years old. Our one extravagance is a 2002 Corvette, long paid for. We have saved a lot of money over the years only to see 30% of it lost in the stock market drop this year. I wish we had spent it on designer handbags instead of Target specials; spent it on fancy vacations instead vacationing at home; spent it on anything besides thinking we were doing the right thing by saving only to see it go down the drain with nothing to show for it because of this lousy economy.

My husband is an electrical engineer. He designs the chips that go the electronics that you all enjoy. The jobs like his are going overseas to people who will work slave wages. He doesn't know where he will work when his job goes away. Many like my husband are not responsible for the economic trouble facing everyone today, they are victims of it.

He did everything the right way. He got a good education, worked hard, saved money and enjoyed life.... and the rug is being pulled out from under him.

So before you gloat to much about high salary people losing their jobs realize many of these people did the right things in life.
Not all are Republicans, not all lived above their means. They are your neighbors and your family.

[gollygee]

48. Thank you!

We have savings, but most of our "retirement savings" are in the form of 401Ks and stock options, provided or encouraged through a matching program by my husband's work. Those are now worth a whole lot less than they were. We haven't squandered at ALL. Our one "extra" is piano lessons for our daughter. That and we're expecting a second child - maybe that's an extra. I even breastfeed and use cloth diapers to save money, and did with the older one as well. I bought most of the baby stuff from garage sales. My car is only 2 years old, though we drive our cars until they drop. My husband's is 17 years old but it still runs well so we keep it. Anyway, we are not "living large".

This class warfare bullshit is getting old around here. People who make more money than you are not the enemy, people.

[azmouse]

57. Thank you too.

It's also good to remind everyone that we gave a lot of money to charities and we will continue to give for as long as we can.
It may be us on the food kitchen line next if things don't improve.

My husband and I came from very poor families. We know that way of life, and we worked hard (and had some good luck) to get out of poverty. We used our money responsibly to have a secure future. We've tried our best to help others. I hate being made the enemy because I have money. I'm not rich, far from it. But I have been able to enjoy a few extras here and there all the while making saving money and paying off my mortgage a priority. I realize I've had a good life by many standards but I'm not driving around in chauffered limos and I haven't had a vacation in 5 years.

[MajorChode]

157. It boils down to the green eyed monster for many

There are people making far less than 6 figures who are perfectly content with their income. Some people prefer quality of life issues or job satisfaction or the location where they live. There's nothing wrong with that. There's certainly more to life than money. I don't see too many people in that situation saying screw people who do make six figures because they probably wouldn't want to trade places with them.

Then you have the others who are just generally unhappy in their situation and they think if everyone else feels their pain it will make them feel better. It never does. If they feel contempt for those better off financially than them, it speaks volumes about their character.

[azmouse]

159. All I want for people is for them to have what they need and want

to live the life they want. My family's income isn't taking anything away from anyone.

And you're right, happiness isn't dependant on income. Although most could use more and I want them to have it.

[MajorChode]

161. All I desire is a system that provides equal opportunity

The problem with the US is the tax system is progressive to a point, and severely regressive after that.

Warren Buffet pays 15% of his income to taxes and that's only because he chooses to as he could easily shelter most of his income in offshore investments. Meanwhile I'm paying around 50% when all taxes of all forms are considered. It's not hard to see how the rich keep getting richer and the best pretty much anyone else can hope for is upper middle class.

Hard work should have rewards and everyone should have the same opportunities.

[bobbolink]

104. You're soooo right... you have it much worse than those of us living in our cars.

:eyes:

And, of course WE did all the WRONG things, didn't we, or we wouldn't be where we are?

[azmouse]

110. You really don't get do you.

You're hopeless.

I'm not asking for sympathy... especially from someone obviously lacking in that trait. :eyes:

[bobbolink]

127. Of course I don't get it... I"m just a stoooopid lazy homeless person

who did all the "wrong" things.

"You're hopeless." Thank you for your "progressive" proclaimations.

And, of course, I lack "sympathy". I'm just a no-good bum.

Feel better now?

[azmouse]

136. I'm sorry life hasn't been fair to you.

Really.

But I'm not your enemy. I want a good life for you and for all Americans.

My husband and I came from poor families. We weren't born rich.
If you want to misunderstand 'doing the right things' be my guest. I don't know what I could do to make you understand but I'll try: We got educated. We moved to find good jobs. We didn't spend more than we had. We lived within our means and saved a lot of money. We were very lucky to stay healthy and stay married. We bought only the house we could afford. We stayed out of trouble with the law.

[bobbolink]

143. Yet, you don't want to understand.

You see, MANY of us did all those things, and ended up screwn.

BUT, where are you with working for changes that would actually make our lives liveable?

I repeat... your name shows up NOWHERE on the poverty posts, requesting emails/phone calls for legislative changes.

Yet, you want us to feel bad because you are surviving on a 6 figure income?

You try understanding us for a change, and then maybe you'd see the whole party not going down the drain.

Many of us have come to the conclusion that the only way you're going to get it is when you hurt as badly as we do.

When it matters to you who is dying because of being ignored and uncared for by the friggin' Dem party and the "progressives" who do all the right things.

[azmouse]

149. Believe it or not there is life outside DU.

No I'm not involved in things here... I do things directly in my community.
Sorry that you think DU is the only way to do things.

I never requested any sympathy for my life. I know I currently have it good and I'm thankful for it everyday.
I've worked minimum wages jobs in factories. I know what it's like getting by on nothing. That's why I work with local charities and donate thousands of dollars every year so others can eat and have a place to live. If the large income goes away so do those donations helping Americans.

And IF I and others 'hurt' as badly you do... who will then be there to help?
When every American is poor and homeless will that make you feel better? I hope not...

[bobbolink]

146. Here's your chance.

Be willing to read, put your name on a thread that is asking you to understand the reality, and the opportunity to take some real action.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4754889&mesg_id=4754889

[Naturyl]

173. No, you don't get it.

Bobbolink is one of the most active advocates for *other people* on this website. A lack of sympathy isn't the issue.

[cottonseed]

115. You're living in your car and you think the enemy is a middle class family?

Oh boy... we did lose the class war. :eyes:

[bobbolink]

129. You got that right! You "lost the class war"... because it's all about

the upper-middle class who are "struggling", and you don't have any use for those of us below that.

The uppification of the Democratic party ... has created that divide.

Enemy? That's your word, not mine. BUT when I start seeing your name on the many poverty threads here, and see you willing to take action, then the divide will lessen.

Until then, take comfort in your superiority.

[cottonseed]

138. In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not at the moment "uppified".

Right now I'm at half of what I was making 3 years ago. I took off and started my own consultancy because I wasn't satisfied at what I was doing. Work is harder on your own because you aren't backed by the pricing power of a larger organization. You earn the direct value of the service you provide.

Reason I am vigorously defending the 100K number is because as it stands now and where I'm living (regionally: SF/CA) it's hard to live comfortably and I am not saving anything at all right now. I believe that at the 100K number that allowed for peace of mind and the ability to aggressively save money for both retirement and any emergency that might arrive. I believe every American should live that well.

Now, I'm not defending this salary level at the expense of those in poverty. What I am defending is what I believe to be a very good and fair salary level for the region of the country I live in and something that many can strive for. I don't feel superior, I'm working back towards something that I don't think I should be ashamed of.

[bobbolink]

145. Here's your chance...

actually put your name on a thread about REAL poverty, and take the opportunity to take real action.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4754889&mesg_id=4754889

[cottonseed]

150. Kicked it, bookmarked it, and will be going back to read the essays.

[ProfessorGAC]

171. Misdirected Anger

You got a bad break. I get that. But, your anger is misdirected. People making 6 figures aren't your enemy.
GAC

[lumberjack_jeff]

175. If I had one wish, is that we'd stop talking about income groups using "class" terminology

The poster who's husband "has made six figures for many years"... assuming she doesn't work... is in about the 90th percentile for income. 90% of households have less income than her family.

Social policy needs to be crafted to mitigate the problems faced by the bottom 60%. Society is working just fine for those at the 80% level and above.

The problem with doing anything for "the middle class" is that it is terminology which is so squishy as to be completely friggin' meaningless. If a household earning $125,000/year (90th percentile) is "middle class" than one earning $14,000/year (10th percentile) should be too.

[NashVegas]

252. I've Grown to Use It

Because where I live, in the South, class is very much apparent and it occurs to me that talk we have a "classless" society is an illusion.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

198. Why Are You Always So Nasty? The Poster Said Nothing Of The Sort.

You seem to want the world to bow down to you with sympathy because of your situation, as if no one else is relevant but you... poor little you. Your attitude stinks.

[Number23]

204. I don't see how in the world you got that from azmouse's post...

I really don't....

[fed_up_mother]

221. thank you!

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[dana_b]

262. great post and I hope it doesn't come

down to that for you two. Also your last sentence sums up how I wish more people would think of this. It's not about "too bad - those greedy bastards" - it's about people all around going through this.

[AlCzervik]

52. just because you make $125k doesn't mean you bring that home and it doesn't

mean you should go and live beyond your means.

[Missy Vixen]

91. Why don't you explain to us what is "beyond your means"

when people everywhere, regardless of income, are having the rug yanked out from under them?

If you'd read the posts before yours, you'd realize that those who formerly made a living income either now don't have it or can't find it.

To some on this thread, they won't be content until everyone's living in a cardboard box -- then again, I'm sure there'll be bitching because someone else's cardboard box is nicer or drier than theirs.

Julie

[Sanctified]

53. Some of the posts remind me of what Republicans say about people who lose a good factory job

that pays $15-$20 an hour and have to work for minimum wage and figure out how to make a car and house payment, you know how those people should not have lived above their means and all.

[Lorien]

58. Yep. And a lot of people here on't understand that 125k is not a lot to

live on in some areas of the country. It'll make you rich in Syracuse NY or Dayton OH, but you'll be scraping by in Boston or Burbank.

[Dappleganger]

86. Very true.

[Lorien]

55. Geez, I was making that much and more for years before bush, but the

adjustment to a $40,000 a year income wasn't THAT hard because I never lived beyond my means to begin with! I own a house that I bought for 150k 12 years ago, I paid cash for my car when it was new 14 years ago and have held on to it. I missed the yearly vacations to Europe, and I missed the security of having money, but other than that it wasn't a huge lifestyle change. Now that I'm unemployed I certainly am hurting, but if medical expenses hadn't compleely wiped out my savings I would have been OK for a while.

It's important to remember; 125k is NOT RICH. Wealthy in America starts around 460k-that's when you'll see the really good Bush Tax cuts. :crazy:

[NashVegas]

253. LOL Lorien

thanks for adding some levity.

[newtothegame]

56. What's interesting about this post is that the $66,000 is around what the average auto worker makes.

And they don't even need a degree. Presumably these finance guys had degrees, which means they are making student loan payments. So even though they are probably in a WORSE situation that auto workers, many here are demonizing them while worshipping the auto workers.

[Lorien]

59. Because being blue collar is noble while having a degree makes you" elitist"

to many around here. The anti-intellectualism on this board is stunning sometimes, but I guess DU is just a reflection of the rest of the country in that respect.

[lib2DaBone]

62. 30 years old making $125K? Wow.. where did I go wrong?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

67. You weren't willing to lie people into mortgages they couldn't afford. nt

[Writer]

68. Some people see a six-figure salary and think it's a million dollars.

You're FUCKING WRONG.

$100,000/year does not afford you the same level of comforts you would have if you also didn't have the realities of debt and the expenses of maintaining a family. If you live in a more expensive area of the country, you'll also not see the "ritzy" lifestyle that many assume you to have at that salary level.

You're middle to upper-middle class at $100K... NOT WEALTHY.

[moriah]

69. I didn't see any whinging about how "terrible" it is...

... unlike what several posts have implied.

My salary has doubled in the last five years.

I don't particularly feel like I'm living high on the hog -- no trips to Europe for me. We do fairly well for our area. When we got better jobs, we moved out of the one bedroom apartment, and are renting a house. I did take on a car payment when I got this particular job, but my man still drives my old car, and I bought a used vehicle instead of new. Could I go back to what I made back then and not die? Sure. Would I have to make adjustments? Yes.

The people interviewed weren't crying over what happened -- both said they were happy to have jobs at all.

Let's not judge so much, shall we?

[Forkboy]

71. It sucks. I don't like seeing anyone go through things like this.

Some people on this thread are fucking losers.

[Waiting For Everyman]

74. You know, for 5 years I've known this was going to hit the comfortable class,

and I've been waiting to hear the whining. I knew it was coming. Poor me, $100K isn't rich. It's not our fault. We did everything right. We have student loans.

Give me a break. Get honest for a just a millisecond.

These are the same people who think it's just fine for ANYBODY to make $18K or less per year. Is it really ok? Where was the whining and indignation about THAT while all the pensions were going up? Is the disparity between an $18K salary and $100K really justified? REALLY? And at $100K almost all student loans can be paid off mighty fast. My daughter owes $40K on hers and makes $25K as a college degreed writer. WTF? Stock brokers are smarter than writers? The evidence sure doesn't support that.

Face the fact that some sat at the banquet table and some got crumbs. Those who were paid crumbs got ZERO sympathy when they lost everything to foreclosures. And now those who benefitted from this system have the gall to complain about this very same system as soon as they're not on the taking-end? This economic destruction we have goes with the territory that the comfortable class was paid well to oversee and perpetuate.

The ONLY thing they're surprised at is that they're not immune from it. I find that very ugly. And the whining makes it uglier. Live in the $18K-or-less trenches for a year, and then tell us about it. Or try no job at all for 6 months to a year. It's a little convenient "seeing the light" as soon as the spigot's turned off.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cottonseed]

89. Corportate CEO, "Quick get me more 'Waiting for Everyman'!"

Corporate CEO, "Hey, there's some ass hat on a discussion board urging a salary destruction for everyone in this country!"

[Waiting For Everyman]

95. I'm arguing quite the opposite, but don't bother reading before jumping to conclusions.

It might be a strain.

[cottonseed]

111. I've reread it and it's still crap.

You're talking about the "comfortable" class as if people at 100K are somehow in the same league as those with yachts and private jets. It seems as if you think those at that salary level have know idea what it's like to live on 18K a year. You're wrong and you're still attacking the wrong class.

[azmouse]

120. Your posts in this thread are great.

Thank you for understanding the point here is how the good paying jobs are going away.

Everyone will soon be competing for minimum wages jobs just to try to stay alive. How many hamburgers can we serve each other until the US is a third-world country?

The six figure jobs are ones we need and ones we should be fighting for, as well as a living wage for everyone regardless of skills.
NO ONE should live in poverty who works at a job.

[cottonseed]

130. Thanks... this is a wild one no doubt.

It probably has more to do with the wo is me slant of the story itself, but I just can't sit here and watch those with good jobs be torn apart. This sort of stuff, pitting regular Americans against one another on issues of whether or not 100K is a living wage is asinine. Really, it will lead to the doom of us all if opinion leaders (or internet posters in this case) feel they need to attack one another in a race to the bottom.

[Waiting For Everyman]

123. I said no such thing about equating comfortable with yachts and jets.

I do know the difference between comfortable and wealthy. You just make it up as you go, don't you? And no, I'm attacking the right class in ADDITION to the wealthy. The 6-figures enabled this for the wealthy, and they didn't mind that THEY THEMSELVES got hefty increases constantly, while keeping the bottom squelched for the "massas". I've lived on the top and the bottom several times, I know both sides from first-hand experience.

And no, the 6-figures DO NOT, with few exceptions, know what $18K's or less go through and deal with, and how they have been bled dry for 30 years while being called "deadbeats" by the thieves who robbed them and got away with it - that is completely obvious just from reading this thread. THE 6-FIGURES don't get it. It's also obvious that they still don't want to get it either. Nothing new there.

What's in complete denial is how they caused their own demise. Maybe they never will get that, but the lower class surely does. Denial doesn't put clothes on the emperor to those who can see.

Do you realize that the minimum wage TODAY is the equivalent of where it was in 1968? Well I can tell you that the middle (or comfortable or professional) class in 1968, including the college-educated, was not nearly so far out of proportion to that as it is now. The middle and the top did fine under Reaganomics, while screwing the bottom. THAT IS THE FACT OF IT.

[azmouse]

131. wow... whole lotta assumptions there.

My husband didn't just wake up one day earning six figures. He didn't step on anyone or 'squelch' anyone or say 'screw you' to those making less or call them 'deadbeats.

He and I both grew up very poor. He had the luck to get an education, work and save to get more education and the luck to find good employers. He worked long hours and was ALWAYS appreciative of what he had.

We've never forgotten what it was like to do without. And we've never stopped being grateful for what we have... a roof over our heads, food to eat, clothes to wear. We do whatever we can for others, donating time, money, clothing, food. To say that people making six figures don't get it... that's a lie. What we have is what we want for everyone.

[Waiting For Everyman]

139. So because you're an exception, that means the big picture can't be discussed?

It isn't about you personally. But I think you know that.

[cottonseed]

133. I've reread it again. My problem was that I thought you were trying to make a real argument.

After going over it again, I see that you're just pissed off that some have a decent job and a wage that should allow a family to live comfortably while leaving them enough to save for a retirement which would keep them out of destitution and maybe have a little left over to leave to their children.

[Waiting For Everyman]

147. You just keep repeating your mistatement of what I wrote. Nice try, no cigar.

I wonder why you're trying so hard to cloud the issue? Oh, nevermind. I can figure that out myself.

[CreekDog]

206. i'm over 100k and i was under 18k a little over 10 years ago

i remember being unemployed and running out of money while carrying 3k worth of credit card debt (most racked up while unemployed, in part to buy a new suit for interviews as well as gas to get around).

just because someone is making a decent living now doesn't mean they don't know what it's like to make less.

[Dappleganger]

90. I've done all of that...

Grew up in the <$18 k/year, lived on my own in a garage apt. while going to school (working two p/t jobs with no health care). We've been through three layoffs, the last one was over 6 months long and we had to leave the state to find another job in his field.

It's no fun being laid off no matter who you are.

[Naturyl]

179. Thanks so much for that.

Now get ready to be called "jealous," "loser," etc.

[CreekDog]

208. you're just plain wrong about what people here stand for and don't stand for

DU has tons of people on it that make a nice living and yes, many over 100k and time and time again, we argue for universal health coverage (even though we have it ourselves), we argue for substantially higher minimum wages (even though we are not paid such low wages), we argue for increased taxes, in fact often increases for our tax brackets. we argue for greater help for the needy (which would not help us directly). we argue for free college educations, ones that aren't limited by one's income. we argue for better funding of public education so that kids in poor and working class areas get the same level of education and opportunity as kids in wealthier areas.

anybody actually reading DU will see support for increasing people's standard of living throughout the website, except for the occasional crank.

for you to come here and tell me and a bunch of other people that we don't care and that we don't have any issues with peole making 18k year is asisine. i think it's a travesty in a nation as wealthy as ours and i've been voting and giving in ways to change that. many here have been doing the same.

for you to divide us this way and mischaracterize what so many liberals here with some money and comfort have been supporting --to make us sound like heartless Republicans, it's just repugnant and inaccurate to boot.

[Waiting For Everyman]

211. 1st off, see post #139 above. 2nd, it's much more than the occaisional crank,

even in this thread alone - it looks closer to the majority to me, who are denying that the working poor are called "deadbeats", "subprime", and "irresponsible" when they're in foreclosure or bankruptcy or become homeless for the exact same reasons that it's happening to the 6-figures now. And on top of that we're not supposed to notice or comment on that, or we get called the names we see here. Tough cookies. I think we know what we're experiencing, and we've had a few years enduring this already as the "first wave" of it to pay close attention to what's ruining us and notice what's causing it. Our input might be helpful in solving it or suviving it because we know a thing or two about it by now, but of course we know nothing because most of us don't have degrees, right? We're the stupid poor. (It's that "meritocracy" myth again - if we're poor, we're stupid.)

That's ok, the critics can figure it out on their own when they get harmed this far.

Upthread we have people tearing into a homeless person, to say how nicely the homeless are treated on DU. And also denying that person's direct personal experience in threads here (which I've experienced myself).

This is not jealousy, it's reality. Those on the bottom of the pay scale are very familiar with the compensation landscape. They get to think about it anew every payday. And being homeless, or close to it for years on end, might cause one to think about it a lot too.

But of course, those with degrees who have not been in this position all this time and are just hitting their first taste of these economic problems a few months ago, understand it all so much better than we who have been enduring these condition for 30 years. (While being called names because we don't cope with it perfectly enough for most people.)

In case you didn't look for post #139, it said this isn't about any of you personally. But if the shoe fits, wear it.

[Patiod]

276. Agreed - I've lived on $11,000, tuna and noodles, and moved up

Thanks to both hard work and LUCK I was able to move up the ladder, slowly, starting at $11,000 a year, and slowly increasing over a 37-year career, which included lay-offs and periods of unemployment. But I know that I was lucky to be born into a middle class family that lived in a good public school district, could afford to send me to a state university, the luck to be very healthy, the luck to be part of an industry that is keeping our city afloat, the luck to be living in an area that lost its industry early and had to replace it while there was still something to replace it with - I'm aware that a lot of what made my current good salary possible is just a whole lot of luck.

I don't make 6 figures, but I'm doing well, for now. And I support programs to help others move up, I support Democrats vs Republicans. I even support the arts (by supporting an actor).

Like you, CD, I wonder -- why the black-and-white "everyone making good money sucks" hate here at DU?

[Dappleganger]

81. You may think that's a lot of money

but it's not.

We're a family of 6 (four kids, three are teens) and dh is our only earner at this time. He makes about $110 K/year and it really doesn't go that far. We live in the 2nd smallest house in the neighborhood, pay cash only for used cars and have no credit card debt. We bought our house 7 years ago just before the bubble went full-blown around here (so we're not 'upside-down'). Aside from the mortgage we have no debt.

We shop at thrift stores and use coupons to make ends meet. The biggest chunks of expenditures go into our utilities and food bill. We are able to set aside a small amount for the kids to be able to go to two year's worth of community college. I need to go back to work this year (free-lance graphic artist) but am struggling w/depression after taking care of my mom then losing her last year when she had multiple strokes. Our retirement savings was cut in half over the past few months so I need to help w/increasing our income.

Not wanting pity, just stating that the dollar doesn't go as far as it used to these days. I grew up just barely middle class in Norfolk, VA and know that we really aren't that much better off financially now than we were when I was growing up.

And no, we don't have expensive cell phone or satellite plans.

[johnlucas]

277. I figured it out on my calculator: $100,000 IS a lot of money

When numbers are put into practice you can never deny their truth.
I figured it out on my calculator after reading your post. Just rough calculations to paint the tale

A yearly income of $100,000 divided by 12 months equals $8,333.33 a month

100,000 ÷ 12 = 8,333.33~

That $8,333.33 a month divided by 4 weeks equals $2,083.33 a week

8,333.33 ÷ 4 = 2083.33~

So seeing as some people get paid every two weeks lets put that figure together.
2,083.33~ X 2 = 4,166.66~

That would round up to $4,166.67 every two weeks.

Yes, there are taxes that cut down this gross and yes, this money may have less impact in certain areas of the country than another but if you can't live well off of $100,000 a year, $8,333.33 a month, $4,166.67 every two weeks, $2,083.33 a week, then you got major money handling issues and poor resource planning.

Anyone who says $100,000 is not a lot of money has never seen the realities of little money or were sheltered from seeing that reality by their parents.
I make between $10,000 & $20,000 a year and while my belongings aren't the most luxurious (don't have the deluxe house and the prize car and all that) I live pretty decently considering. I lived pretty good when I made $8,000 a year though I had to do some major bill juggling to achieve this. Always had food in my house and clothes on my back and temperature controlled housing. I was working for $5.15 an hour (originally $4.25 and later $4.75 an hour) minimum wage as a part-time cook (32 hours a week at best) at a pizza place as a young adult and still managed to pay all my bills AND have cable TV, a superfluous luxury (liked to watch my pro wrestling).

In comparison to TRUE poverty like people living in supremely corrupt, crime-ridden, war-torn nations, I have it made. And I ALWAYS use that comparison to determine the true meaning of what it is to do without. At any moment I can go to my refrigerator, dig something out, and pop it in my microwave whenever I want to eat. And I can think of eating as a whim when I'm bored or just have a taste to try something different when others think of it more as a literal life and death matter. I have a stove and oven to use if I'm so inclined. A toaster oven too if I'm feeling sporty. I'm poor by an American standard but am I poor by a world standard?

I recognize that this little bit I got can be gone at any moment which is why I hope my health holds out for me like it has been doing marvelously so far (I hardly ever get sick). I recognize that the homeless are not to be shunned and that THEY are the measuring stick to determine a justness of a society. If certain things fall with a particular timing I could be one among them and that reality is not too far off of my conscience. It is why no matter how I'm doing I think back to true struggling to get a perspective. The trials of someone making a $100,000 are to be noted for mapping the entirety of the phenomena but no one making that much should be crying about their fate. If they do, then they need to spend a little more face time with real struggle.

W & W go hand in hand. Wealth & Waste. The richer you are, the more you are frivolous with the essentials of life. With fortune comes flightiness. No surprise that in the richest country in the world, people waste food at a rate that is unfathomable in any moral sense. We got so much food that we throw out what we can't use in the dumpster rather than redistribute it to those who may need it the most. Every single day in every single town across the country. A starving man makes no waste.
John Lucas

[cottonseed]

83. I post at DU and anyone making over 20K is the ENEMY!

After reading the replies on this board I've just got to shake my head. Progressives, liberals, or whatever DUers are calling themselves these days are demonizing someone making a good salary? Everyone in America should be making 100K+ you IDIOTS! No wonder the elite in this country have it so easy... Working class find it easier to drag each other's salaries down; then finding the will to actually fight the battles that matter. There was a class war started decades ago and we lost. Looks like most of the mega-rich's unwitting foot soldiers have swarmed to this post like flies on shit.

[Sanctified]

88. No shit, instead of dragging down people to minimum wage lets lift everyone up to $100k.

I too am surprised that anyone who is successful is demonized on these boards, I bet Skinner makes a decent living but I don't see people calling for his head.

[Missy Vixen]

92. Wait till some of these brainiacs discover

it costs money to run a site that gets several hundred thousand hits a day, not to mention the long hours the admins put in to keep it running in the first place.

Of course, it should all be free, shouldn't it? :sarcasm:

Julie

[arcadian]

102. Yeah, great fucking idea.

You do realize that somebody will do the shit work so the many can live comfortably. Slave labor around the world so Americans can live high off the hog. No thanks, leave me out.

[Sanctified]

106. Not sure how lifting the wages in the US is a bad thing.

Would you prefer that Americans do labor at slave wages so the rest of the world can live high off the hog?

[cottonseed]

114. Do you realize that we should be working towards raising our standard of living?

There's no romanticism in wanting to live in 3rd world conditions pal. You ever wonder why this country receives the number of immigrants that it does? It's because we strive to increase our standard of living -- not resign to the fact that the ruling class has it all now and will always have it all. You might not know what it's like to be poor, really poor, but it's not what everyone who knows it is striving for.

[gollygee]

162. Or at the very least stop demonizing people who need assistance

Public assistance is a very small part of the federal budget. Why can tons of money just up and go missing in Iraq without much more than a shrug, but if one person in front of someone in the grocery line buys snack food on an EBT card, it's a federal emergency? Or if someone with an EBT card or on WIC DARES to own a cell phone. I've seen people outright demonize the poor, and I agree that the poor have it much, much worse than my family will probably ever have it. The only issue I have is that us having money doesn't make us the enemy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

180. We could all collect unicorn farts. I hear there's a good market for them.

First: the US gdp per capita is only $46,000. If everyone made the same wage, that's what it would be.
Second: without fail, the people I see jumping to the defense of the guy who showers each morning to drive his lexus to work, are the same people who bitch about the UAW guy who drives his chevy home each night to shower before bed. Worse, they're the same people who rally the wagons 'round the "poor hard working immigrants who come here simply looking for a better life", because their own lifestyle depends upon cheap cabernet and arugula.

[Burma Jones]

100. I used to live in Westchester County, NY - amidst the Mega Rich....

you have it pegged.

If you can't live well on $20 million in assets, you need to examine your priorities.....

Of course, Western Mythology is full of tales of wicked and foolish rulers, not to mention Dragons, hoarding piles of wealth just to have it lying around.....

[mudesi]

112. If everyone in America made 100K+.....

If everyone in America made that much, prices would go through the roof. It's called inflation.

[cottonseed]

118. Would it?

So you believe that we should leave it as it is? Suppress real salaries and concentrate wealth at the top while importing cheap products from overseas to keep inflation at near 0% while letting domestic manufacturing wither and die? Because, if that were the case all that it would take to destroy the entire system is irresponsible and criminal behavior by the investing classes in the form of pumping up housing, commodities, and stock prices, while exposing a credit-backed consumption economy as illusory... oh wait.

[truedelphi]

185. Excellent analysis. n/t

[XemaSab]

85. All people making six figures are republicans?

Learn something every day on the DU. :eyes:

I'll be sure to tell that to my friend Steve who is a gay single dad, and recently lost his job as director of a nonprofit. :eyes:

[SoCalDem]

94. A partial unwinding is occurring.

Partial, because the ones at the very top, are a sufficiently small number, that reductions for them are not nearly as painful...say, a drop from 68MILLION...all the way down to 45MILLION..

and the people at the bottom, who lose out may go from two $7hr jobs, down to one..or in a worst case scenario./.none, but those folks are quite used to being frugal, and have some pretty good coping skills, having probably lived with a small income their entire lives.

The ones in the "middle" are the ones who are hurt the most, because they have lived with the expectation that things would always be getting better, and that the education they spent so much for, would "pay off", and the exit from middle class is not a gradual one..it's sudden..and comes with a very hard landing, because of extreme debt for many of them.. Just because the "big" job ends, and there's 1/2 to 1/3 of the money coming in, does not mean that the Visa & Master Card debts racked up end too..they don't.. there's just no money to pay them now..or the multi-car-payments.

"Experts" love to pretend that there are 3 classes..upper, middle & poor..but they are wrong.. there are at LEAST 5 levels, and the one at the top and the one at the bottom are pretty stable..It's the 3 or more in-between who are on the roller coaster ride. When a family in that group loses half their income, suddenly..it's a dramatic change because there are so many of them, and all chasing the same income level (high double to mid 6-figures)..and those jobs are being squeezed out of the equation..

My son & his wife are on the knife's edge (both make 6 figures) BUT they live near San Francisco (Concord), and if ONE loses the job, they are screwed because of the cost of living and housing there.. I think their cars are paid off, but their modest (built in 1958..3 br house) comes with a $3200 a month house payment.

So far their jobs are stable, but no one knows anymore, so planning is difficult for them.. they did what they were advised to do..save save save..and both paid extra into their 401-ks (neither has a pension plan, save for that)..and what has that gotten them?..The extra they put in may be gone now, through no fault of their own..

The sad truth is that, probably, jobs pushing papers, should never have escalated to the level we saw them rise, but they did.. Perhaps it was done to "reward" people who spent all that money in school, or to keep the ones in finance, "quiet"...if THEY were receiving a nice wage, maybe they would be more likely to not question odd business practices. Once people get used to a nice wage, it's easy to believe it will always get better..and never go down.

Everyone who has ever played musical chairs, knows that as the chairs start being removed, more and more people get tossed out of the game, and in business, the big shots never have to even play the game.. they RUN the game..

[Naturyl]

96. Have some cake. (n/t)

[notadmblnd]

97. The formerly affluent are going to have the hardest time with it, I think

The rest of us; we've had eight years of lowering our standards of living and learning how to get by with less.

[bobbolink]

98. Geeeez, how very sad...

:nopity:

So many times, probaBly Most Times, THESE are the very same people disparaging us homeless people, and demanding that the government cut out all the safety net.

NOW they want us to feel sorry for them?

Crap!

Sell the damned Lexus, stop feeling sorry for yourselves, thank your lucky stars, and treat the rest of us as valued human beings instead of judging us and wanting us to not do without a Lexus, but do without a place to live, food, health care and silly stuff like that.

No wonder people in the rest of the world shake their heads at us USIANS... we are NUTZ! "Feel sorry for the Rich!" "Blame the poor and throw 'em to the wolves!"

[azmouse]

107. Did you even read any of the other posts in this thread?

Nobody is asking you feel sorry for them. Please show me where they have disparaged the homeless except in your mind?

Nobody here who is at risk of losing their six figure job is driving a Lexus and condemning you because you don't.

Nobody here is not valuing you as a human being or judging you or wanting you do without anything.

How very sad for you that you don't understand this is about good paying jobs going away and the fact that they won't be coming back any time soon.

[Waiting For Everyman]

142. bobbolink is not hallucinating, it's all over DU.

B's post was right on-target. I've seen it too, quite a few times.
Besides that, it's everywhere in commentary. Pretending like that isn't the dominant attitude is reminding me of gaslighting.

[gollygee]

163. That's true - not in this thread but there are many more threads attacking the poor than us

Like threads about how we should raise the gas tax $1 a gallon, and the poor can just suffer, because they should all be running out to be hybrids anyway.

I don't know if I've read a thread here about people in the grocery line daring to buy snack food with an EBT card, but that's around most places if not here. And I've heard people complaining about a woman buying formula on WIC who had a cell phone. There was a thread here about a woman who didn't have enough WIC money to get formula for her baby so she watered it down, and people wanted her drawn and quartered. Attacking the poor seems to be a common theme, here and everywhere.

Anyway, I agree the poor have it much much worse than I have it or will most likely ever have it. I recognize that any financial issues we might have in the future pale in comparison to what people living in poverty deal with every day. I recognize that a good part of the reason we're in the financial situation we're in is simply luck. What I don't understand is why people seem angry at people simply because they make six figures.

[Number23]

207. I remember that thread

There was a thread here about a woman who didn't have enough WIC money to get formula for her baby so she watered it down, and people wanted her drawn and quartered.

It was shameful. Absolutely nauseating...

[Waiting For Everyman]

212. This is why...

What I don't understand is why people seem angry at people simply because they make six figures.

It's not anger that some are making 6-figures, it's because a lot of them are the ones with those attitudes you referred to, who now think it's so awful that any hard times at all are happening to them, and can't comprehend why. We're trying to 'splain it to them.

The working poor did not choose to be underpaid, they have no say in it. But the 6-figures with those attitudes you described have been the cheerleaders for this system which 1) has been robbing the poor they slam so easily; and 2) has made them very comfortable while doing it; and 3) this cheap labor system has destroyed the economy, which is now beginning to harm them too. And I'd add 4) many 6-figures are in the management class which thinks up the methods for keeping the working poor down in their own companies. They think none of us are bright enough to know that.

Thanks, gollygee for acknowledging how it is here (and in general public opinion). It's a "blame the victim" game, which comes from people who feel guilty because they know they're doing some of the class warfare themselves. The poor attacking the well-off? That's funny, especially from "liberals". Wow, that's just so mean and unenlightened of the poor!

I'd say to those who think we're so mean or who make the comments you referred to, or who think we're trying to diminish high salaries... ok, make $100K the new minimum wage then, and we have no problem. Or even $50K. Even $30K. (Howls of the "harm to business" will follow.)

[Missy Vixen]

197. Hey, bobbolink,

>Sell the damned Lexus, stop feeling sorry for yourselves, thank your lucky stars, and treat the rest of us as valued human beings instead of judging us and wanting us to not do without a Lexus, but do without a place to live, food, health care and silly stuff like that.

You might want to read the rest of the posts in the thread before you paint all of us with that broad brush.

Julie

[Odin2005]

99. WTF is with the vicious attacks on these people? How disgusting

Seems like some DUers won't be happy until they everyone as unhappy and full of misery as they are, how sick. :puke:

[shanti]

205. crabs in a barrel

:(

[scorpiogirl]

101. This thread has me really angry.

My husband just became unemployed January 1st (Happy Fucking New Year!) for the second time since July. Yes, he was making six figures ($110,000) but we also live in a very expensive area. Now I would love to move to where it's cheaper, the problem is how do you find a place to live with no job or even job prospects? It took him three months to find the job he just lost with the crappy start-up that offered no benefits. We spent 2/3's of what we had in savings to make it through those months. What we do have left will be gone in a couple of months and we'd still need to have some for a deposit, last month, moving costs etc. on a new place. Who rents to you when you have no proof of income? We are currently renting and have no credit card debt. Our only debt is car payments and I'm in the process of trying to find a used car to trade my newer car in for so I can either eliminate or reduce my payment. Even if I can find someone who'll rent to us, what if he finds a job in another part of the state, then we're stuck in a lease and would be penalized if we break it. It's not all so cut and dried. And to be clear, we don't ever take vacations and I buy most of my clothes at Target. I am very cheap. My one vice is eating out sometimes when I don't feel like cooking. I also have two little kids, one that's in preschool so we have to pay for that.

I'm going to have give notice where I'm living in the next two weeks and I have no idea where we'll end up. I don't mind changing how I'm living drastically because we've done it before right after 9/11 and five months of unemployment, but not knowing is the worst part. And, we are in the Bay Area, CA, so supposedly job rich, but my husband has no degree so even though he applies for jobs that require one, he's usually over-looked even though he has a great resume and has worked for some major companies. Oh, and unemployment is maxed out at $1,800/mo and it's taxed. I've been trying to keep up with cobra so at least we're not without insurance, but that'll be gone after January. We haven't made all the right decisions, and haven't anticipated everything that can happen, but we've done our best. I guess I deserve to be shit upon for not doing it all right. The thing that stresses me out the most is when you have kids and you have to worry about the schools they'll be in and making the right decisions to benefit them in the long run. People without kids cannot understand the added pressure and worry that puts on parents. I'm from L.A. originally, but may end up moving back there and my friends tell me don't put your kids in LAUSD, even though I'm a product of that system and I think I turned out ok. What are you supposed to do? We moved to our current town because of the great school system in the first place. Don't even get me started about my anxiety level about it all. I can barely function rationally at this point and this is when we have to make some major decisions.

I know we'll survive, but it's a whole other story when you have children relying on you. I can only imagine the pressure my husband feels when it takes so long to find a job and you know you're smart and capable. I feel for anyone who's in our situation.

But I guess we should just go fuck ourselves as some people said so eloquently up thread. Guess what? If it takes my husband as long to find a job as it has in the past, I am fucked!

[Boojatta]

148. Aha!

I knew somebody was bringing down aggregate demand! I knew somebody was responsible for today's unemployment of people who have many years of experience in hospitality/vacation-related work. Now we know who you are. Agent Mike will be paying special attention to your future posts on DU. That's a good thing. Finally you will be helping Americans like Agent Mike stay employed.
;-)

And to be clear, we don't ever take vacations and I buy most of my clothes at Target. I am very cheap.

[dana_b]

264. man.. I hope things turn around

for you quickly! I really think that people are speaking out without realizing that those who do/have had a comfortable life are NOT the enemy. So many here on DU do fight for others.
Good luck to you.

[scorpiogirl]

270. Thank you.. I'm sure luck is going to be the deciding factor.

I'm sitting here realizing that I'm going to probably have to get rid of a lot of things, a lot of which belonged to my deceased mom and that's a hard pill to swallow.

My husband's boss yesterday decided to hold the entire month's pay he was supposed to get for December because he wanted certain things finished. Just confirms for me that they wanted to use him to finish their website in it's entirety and then chuck him aside even though his contract was only through the end of December. I called that b.s. from the minute I met his boss. I'll just say my husband had some choice words for that asshole. I hate people who take advantage of others, they just suck.

My HR generalist friend just told me that the job outlook for January isn't looking good. Not what I wanted to hear. I'm overwhelmed and depressed at this point. How do you wind your life back to zero?

I'm just also realizing that it would be difficult to get an auto loan, even for a small amount, without proof of income. I wish someone would've taught me how to downsize my life so I could have done it sensibly, now I just feel stuck.

The reality hits me a little more each day.

[dana_b]

271. oh man... people taking advantage

of others because they know they can... damn.. I'm sorry. As long as it's not them, right?

I have a couple of friends going through similar things. One is jobless, ill and her unemployment will be up soon. All of her savings are gone and now both of her parents are really close to dying. How do you keep your spirits up with shit like that happening? I told her if bad gets worse, she can come stay with me.

[Burma Jones]

108. For Years we have been warned that the woes of the Working Class will soon be visited upon

the Professional Class.

I am 49 years old, have a very good tech job for a Defense Contractor, a PhD, many years of working 60 hour weeks for little pay while I watched others work less and make more. We bought a house we knew was about half of what we could afford, in fact, when we moved here, the Mortgage lender demanded a written statement explaining why we were buying a house that was so "affordable" and well under the price of the house we just sold. I wrote that I would like to be able to pay off the mortgage if I had to. An added benefit is that we like our present neighbors a lot more than when we lived in more affluent surroundings. We drive a Toyota and a Kia, take cheap vacations and basically assume we are going to live on about 2/3 of what I make. We have saved a lot of money and a lot of it disappeared over the last four months. We also know we're fortunate to have been in the position to have even lost a lot of money in the first place.

The writing has been on the wall a long long time. Now that it appears the Mega Rich have sucked all they can out of the Working Class, they have started bleeding the White Collar Professionals......

[azmouse]

113. Be ready to be attacked by some on this thread for having the audacity to own a home.

Some here seem to think that means you have no sympathy for those without a home.
It's disgusting how some here are reacting to the good paying jobs going away with a resounding 'fuck you' to their fellow Americans.


Hang in there. Times will be tough for everyone but I think we have the right man in the WH to straighten things out.
It's just going to take a while for things to improve.

[truedelphi]

186. They have not yet finished bleeding the working class.

Yesterday at Safeway, I saw the newly installed "Self Service" cashier stations.

So the notion of working at the local grocer's as that may be a job they cannot ship overeas, even that notion is no longer valid.

[NashVegas]

267. I've Stopped Using Those Altogether

Not just because of the labor relief, but because the store's not paying me to ring my own stuff up and bag it.

[AnnieBW]

121. I don't care who you are

If you lose half of your income without being prepared for it, it HURTS. My husband lost his job in 2001 during the tech downturn and was out for 10 months. We had just bought a house in 2000, too, so we didn't have much in savings. I feel this guy's pain.

My friend used to work for AOL and was laid off last year. This was after her husband left her because of her ongoing health problems. She's temped, but hasn't done anything permanent in more than a year, even though she's got a stellar resume. Luckily, she's always been a saver, and relied on her mom and brother when her savings ran out. (She can't rely on the ex, because he's already paying child support to his first wife and she didn't get anything out of their divorce because she was making more money than the scumbag at the time.) After all of that, she still votes Republican. Go figure.

[Gormy Cuss]

172. That would be the point.

Losing half your income hurts. In some areas of the country that means going from $30,000 to $15,000. In other areas, it's $100,000 becoming $50,000. In the either case the people may not be in poverty but their lifestyle must change rather dramatically. Sometimes that means no more lattes, but more often it means a serious cash crunch. Having a mortgage on a property that isn't worth what you paid for it adds to the "lifestyle" adjustment. For many people it may mean selling at a loss and moving. For others it may mean feeling stuck where they are. For those who rent, it may mean looking for a cheaper rental as soon as possible.

[thrift_store_angel]

128. Wow

I am not sure where you all live, but in my area 125,000 a year isn't exactly a life of luxury. With 4 children it is probably getting by, but if that was the only income coming in then it isn't exactly granite countertops and spa-like baths. Where I live you probably wouldn't be able to make it with 4 children, 2 adults and $66,000 a year. I don't make anywhere near $125,000 a year and I make less than $66,000 -- I don't own a home and I have been without a place to live at all before. That doesn't mean I can't be sympathetic. Have some perspective, just because things may appear to be one way in comparison with your little corner of the world does not mean they are like that everywhere.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

134. Dude reminds me of Rick Warren Jr.

I could be wrong and I really do strive not to judge people by their appearance, but everything about Shaun screams Purpose Driven Prosperity Gospel fuckwad.

[Naturyl]

182. Promise Keeper? (n/t)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

202. Oh yeah. nt

[mulsh]

140. So-f'n-what. why is this a story? what is interesting about it?

I have 3 friends who were laid off in late Novemeber, filed for unemployment immediately and are still waiting for their first checks.
None of them made anywhere near 6 figures. cut any 6 figure salary in half and the people in the above story are still making more than most people I know. I have little or no sympathy for those guys and even less interest in their so-called hardships.

CA is being held hostage by der Gropenfuerer and Republican pols. meanwhile it's running out of cash and as usual the most needy are being hurt first.

[LeftyMom]

144. They still make more than I do. Boo fucking hoo.

:eyes:

[fascisthunter]

151. very interesting article and thread

the class divide is stronger than most realize...

And unfortunately due to the attack on "populism" and the middle class itself, we will see a greater divide...

As for the poor, they get no mercy, they live it. I can see why those who are poor would scoff at this article, because they at least understand a pain far greater than the one mentioned here. While they adjust, and as painful as that adjustment is, the poor already live that adjustment, check to check... always one check away from the streets. Try thinking of adjusting like that.... understand the anger...

[Redneck Socialist]

152. How sad.

:eyes:


Four/Five years ago the company I worked for went out of business and I went from making 50,000+ to making, oh, how much was it? Oh yeah zero. After a year of piecing together part time work I landed a job making twenty percent less than I had been. Only now am I back to making what I did five years ago.

I doubt very much these folk were shedding many tears over my fate. Their story isn't uncommon, or even very interesting. It certainly doesn't generate any sympathy.

[onethatcares]

153. although I feel some sympathy for them, I wonder if

they ever felt any towards my plight? You know, 2 income earners that jointly never made above 65K a year. Didn't get to go to college and everytime we got one step up, we got to take two steps back cause the car broke down or a dental crown was needed, or health insurance cost a bunch, COBRA kicked us in the butt, and all those other little things that happen when you don't make a 6 figure salary.

BTW, we've always had two cars out of neccessity.

[MajorChode]

176. Why does everyone assume he desires sympathy?

I really didn't see the story as a call for sympathy.

It's really nothing more than a human interest story on the effect of the economic downturn. It's not as if the MSM isn't also doing stories on the effect to the other end of the economic spectrum.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a good example of why you shouldn't trust your economy to Republicans. Because when their house of cards comes crashing down, the cards at the top go down even harder. Hopefully it will be a valuable lesson to those in suburbia and cause them to pause and think the next time they pull that voting lever because next time it might be their house with a foreclosure sign out in the lawn.

That's my take on it. YMMV. I wish they would put a lot more guys like him on the news.

[bigwillq]

156. I wish I made 66K per year.

I have no sympathy. :mad:

[Pavulon]

181. Yea, fuck doctors, airline pilots, nurses, and engineers

any job that could net more than a 100k. I men they are all assholes and dont deserve shit. Fuck that money taken from their checks for unemployment insurance.

And yes some nurses make more than 100k

I have seen some ignorant shit posted in this threat.

[CreekDog]

203. most full time RN's here make 100k or more

of course you can't buy a house on that here.

but some would still call that rich, some folks that make less but are able to buy homes where they live.

[moondust]

183. No wonder bank fees are so high,

credit card interest rates are so high, and deposit rates are so low. They've been supporting the lavish lifestyles of an army of financial "experts."

[wartrace]

190. A mortgage "banker" that was foreclosed upon, I love the irony.

Welcome to the real world Mr. Posner. The money you made was "earned" by loaning people more money than they could ever have the ability to pay back for homes that were overpriced by twice their worth due to your lending money to anyone with a pulse.

It isn't clear if Mr. Chedister was involved in mortgage lending but WAMU was involved in it heavily.


Sorry, a couple of mortgage bankers/bankers who screwed everyone in this country whining about having a lower paying job? :nopity:

[MazeRat7]

209. He did the right thing... found work to take care of his family...

a low six figure salary is not "wealth". Actually its pretty standard for someone who actually does the work to get an education and become a "professional". Nothing wrong with that... oh wait, I forget.. the US falls behind all the other industrial countries in education. Ahhhh now I see...

Peace,
MZr7

[npincus]

214. Lots of meaness and nastiness on this thread.

First off, six-figures is just about a living wage in some parts of the country- like NYC and surrounding metropolitan areas. It is by no means "living large" when you pay rent (or mortgage) upwards of $3K/month, $200/month a parking space, $500/month property taxes, and utility bills @ $300/month... and you have to feed, clothe kids and yourselves... of course people live on whatever they can, whatever they have and should celebrate having a job, any job. But saying "fuck em" about people losing earning power that they have presumably worked years to attain is just fucking mean. And assuming these people are Republicans is fucking stupid. Reading this thread reminds me why I come to DU so infrrequently these days.

[malaise]

216. What shocks me most with these people

is that they didn't spend the big bucks paying cash for a far or paying down more on their mortgages. I bet they were buying bling and showing off with ridiculous over-priced parties for their kids.

I don't have an iota of sympathy for spendthrifts. How nice that the Posners learned to budget. The rest of us have been budgeting all our lives.

[sendero]

217. Been there..

.... done that. Not fun but it sure will rearrange your priorities.

[redqueen]

222. "downgraded from two cars to one and ****learned how to budget****"

I don't know how common this is... but I'm starting to worry.

I personally know people who make good money... good enough that they don't spend too much time thinking about where their money is going. They pay too much for coffee, clothes, and most other things... because they don't *have to* think about it.

I'm not trying to demonize people who make six-figure salaries and then have to adjust to a five-figure one... just wondering aloud about how common this practice might be... of just knowing you have a good income, and therefore not thinking too hard about how you're spending it.

[MissB]

245. Unfortunately, many people of various income levels don't know how to budget

We do, because it just makes sense to us and because we have some steep savings goals. I don't think budgeting is taught, except by family.

I've known people across the income spectrum - poor, middle class and upper class - who simply don't budget. I had to sit down with my SIL a few years back (she's a decade older than me) and help her develop a budget. She had no idea what her income and expenses were. None.

[Genevieve]

234. So, I guess this alot of posters on this thread think less of

a majority of us who live in NYC, and think of us as spoiled, undeserving brats
whose incomes should be slashed.
Because, there is no way $112,000.00 for a family is a lot of money if you live here.

[Dreamer Tatum]

278. California is held out for special scorn here

Wish I knew why.

[johnlucas]

235. The moral of the tale is: ALWAYS Identify With The Least Amongst You

This thread examples the great game the greedy elitists have played upon the Have-Nots. By allowing certain slots for some Have-Nots to have just a little more than another Have-Not allows those Have-Nots to be divided amongst themselves over a righteous envy.

There IS no way for someone making $10,000 a year to really feel sorry for someone making $50,000 a year. The challenges that the person making $10,000 faces are greater than those the ones making $50,000 face. Period. If the person making $50,000 lived as tight to the wire as the one making $10,000 using the extra money to make the system more equitable then there maybe some sympathy. But what happens when someone makes a little more money is they get separated from the realities the poorer person lives with becoming more and more extravagant with each level of wealth gained. As the wealth increases, they begin to identify with the richer people more than the poorer people. Eventually they pick up some or more of the attitudes and belief systems the TRULY wealthy have against people poorer than themselves.

The truth is neither the $10,000 person nor the $50,000 person can understand how the TRULY wealthy live. What those hedge fund managers do in their party life will seem obscene to any extra bought car or soccer lesson or designer clothing or 52" HDTV and entertainment center. How the British royals treat food (they will throw out a sandwich point blank if it is not cut exactly in half. Saw this on E! when they discussed Prince William) will seem immorally wasteful to those eating at Applebee's or collecting Ramen packs.
Conversely, the one making $10,000 may not be able to identify with one who is homeless making $0 a year. The homeless person should righteously feel just as upset as the $10,000 does to the $50,000 person if not more because at least both of the others have a house to live in when the rain comes in.

Inequity is the great problem in this world and until it is honestly addressed there will always be these camps arguing, resenting, and being ignorant of the viewpoints of others.

The truth is NOBODY should be hungry or be homeless or be denied access to opportunities. NO ONE should be poor. Every human being should have the ability to have its needs taken care of and some of its wants. The acceptance of the phrase and mentality of Middle Class is an embarrassment. The existence of the Middle Class is PRECISELY why the Revolution for Equality HASN'T started because it allows those who have a little more to be separated from those who have less by design. A well-fed man simply cannot truly understand what it means to have air in your belly where food should be night after night. Luckily there is some concern which explains contributions to charities and good favors in the neighborhood but the mind of a person who makes more is simply not in tune with those struggling to fulfill their needs.

That guy of the thread's topic making 6 figures even having the gall to lament his fate is a prime example of how out of touch with reality those who make more are. He's lamenting loss of luxuries when luxuries are always extra. He's talking about losing one of his cars when some people have none and have to hitch rides everywhere or take buses and cabs. This guy will not starve because of the drop-off in income. He will just be brought back down to earth a little more. This was possibly the best thing that could have happened to the guy because it will be a wake-up call. Those living in the mirage of wealth suddenly finding desert sands will help them recognize and get in tune with those who have known only sands.

I have never really been anything but economically poor (but only by American standards). Right now I'm having the best time economically by having my job nearby and with the highest wage I have ever got in my life. I live in a cheap trailer (that needs some work on the upkeep) and since I'm single and childless I can splurge on myself from time to time. Even when I was making $5.15 on a part time job, my life would have been seen as the promised land for those around the world who can barely keep food in their stomachs. I have no health insurance and knock on wood my health has held up so far (though I need major dental work now). I'm pretty content with my $10,000 to $20,000 a year state of living. While economically poor and not as autonomous as I would like to be, I am pretty satisfied with how my life is going since my home has provided stability and sanctuary for me, my car for the most part is holding up, my job at the moment seems stable enough for me to save with, the people at my job are not so irritating, I can eat and drink and sleep when I want to (outside of work schedule of course), plus play a little Nintendo Wii. With all this going for me, how much did I give to organizations that help the needy or give to the needy directly? Not nearly as much as I should have. I would give co-workers who made less than I did some food I had with no need of repaying the favor or I would offer a few cents to somebody who needed a soda. I stopped by the local food charity to ask what they needed but haven't taken the time to get the stuff yet even though I could always find time to buy some game or some bag of chips or some little gift to myself.

The holidays aren't the only time when donations are important. That is a year round endeavor and I resolve to make up for my laziness by contributing to an organization or a needy person directly throughout the year. But you see that even at my paltry little wages I have become a little separated from the plight of the even less advantaged. Imagine how I would be at a higher wage. I would like to think that with more money I would be more willing to give but is this illogical and merely wishful thinking? If I'm not helping like I should now, what makes me think I would get better at a higher level of wealth? This happens to everybody and is the problem of wealth. Human beings, all of 'em, are selfish. The only difference is some are more selfish than others. And those who are very selfish with the wealth power to be able rattle a nation's infrastructure are the ones we should be focused on. But never forget that the problem is within US not those "elites". Those elites are human beings who have become so separated from the rest of humanity through their ego of wealth. They're just very advanced in comparison to us. Their selfish actions have greater consequences than ours do. Their greed-driven excess must be kept in check but the source problem is in the selfish nature of humankind itself.

I am not too far gone to not be able to recognize that I am not doing enough in my own little power to balance the scales. If a hungry man came up to me and I had a sandwich I would give it to him without hesitation so he would not starve (giving money direct would be a no-no because some lie about their intentions). You can only gain empathy through suffering. Compassion comes from remembering the pain you went through and seeing someone else as just as worthy to not go through that pain. I remember my carless days and when someone went out of their way to ride me miles and back to work. So when I have a co-worker needing a ride, I don't hesitate in driving out of my way to take them home.

This pay cut will hopefully help that guy get back in touch with truth. And those who feel under attack from those who are not sympathetic to the plights of the more fortunate, keep this in mind: ALWAYS Identify With Least Amongst Yourselves.
Only then will you not be offended by their remarks.
The inequity born out of human selfishness is the real problem. Recognize it and correct it.
John Lucas

[redqueen]

238. Except he's not lamenting...

Chedister:
"It could be worse," he said, I could still be unemployed."

Posner:
Despite the dramatic downsizing that came with a 70% salary reduction, "I'm kind of happy," Posner said. "It's nice to know that I have pretty steady employment."

[Dreamer Tatum]

255. THANK YOU. A MILLION THANKS.

There is so much projection and jealousy going on in this thread that it's hard to know where to begin.

I suggest to DUers that, when faced with the chance to make moral judgments, they READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE FIRST. If you *read* before you *make an ass of yourself*, you'd see that Chedister and Posner are glad to be working and seem to have taken their misfortune in stride.

But instead of people reading and making informed, reflective posts, we get "fuck 'em," "he looks like a Republican," and "Boo hoo." That is simply stupid.

[redqueen]

258. There are also those seeming to think these people planned and did all they could

to be responsible with their wealth... which is also not the case, given that it's admitted that at least one family only learned to budget after they were forced to do so.

Plenty of stupid to go around really.

[Phentex]

272. Thank you for writing this...

There is *so* much truth in what you say. It's all relative.

When you are trying to survive, day by day, it's very hard to swallow the inequality you see all around you. And when all your needs are met, and then some, you have the means to reach out and help others. You don't have to turn into "the enemy"...

[johnlucas]

274. Thank you, Phentex

Thank you for your compliments, Phentex.

Classes are created because of a difference. Height classes, weight classes, appearance classes, scholastic classes, social classes, economic classes, it's endless.

Those who find themselves in one class depending on how they got there can lose touch with the others. All human beings suffer the fault of only seeing the world that's directly in front of them. Takes practice to build up the skill of seeing things from other points of view.

I remember a post here a few weeks ago talking about some rich woman (wife of some wealthy something or other) who was an editor to some magazine talking about her "sacrifices" in the current economic crisis and seeing how surreal it all sounded the board scoffed, laughed, was shocked by her insularity.

FOUND IT! Here is the thread and the original articles the thread linked to. The rich "sacrificing" editor woman's name is Alexandra Penney, former editor of Self Magazine (appropriately).
The Limits of My Bleeding Heart

Alexandra Penney: Skid row
The Bag Lady Papers

After reading this and knowing what REAL struggle is, one can't HELP to be resentful of people with more whining about their fates.
The first thing out of any of these people's mouths SHOULD be "Well what I'm going through is nothing compared to what people working for minimum wage are going through. Certainly nothing like what someone on the streets is going through. Don't feel sorry for me."

But you never hear that and that is the point of my post. There is a disconnect that happens as more money finds its way into a person's pockets.
Americans in general don't really think heavily on the fact that their "higher" standard of living is built off the backs of desperately poor people from other lands. This is why stuff made overseas is cheaper to buy than stuff made right here in the country despite the obviously greater costs for transport and storage that comes with anything brought from outside of the United States. Wal-Mart and Dollar General understand that all too well which is why they're growing in power daily. Slave labor whether outright or under the classification of 'wage-slave' provides the wealth the world takes advantage of. This leads into the irrationality about the issue of illegal immigration which places blame on powerless desperate people rather than the puppetmasters who create these kinds of situations in the first place.

To those not understanding why some people have little sympathy for those with more money regardless of their situation, read those links I put up earlier with the "sad story" of Alexandra Penney and see if your sympathy for her matches.
John Lucas

[northernlights]

266. no pity for them whatsoever

I'm sorry, but I worked my butt off for years before my salary made it to 6 figures. Once I got dumped and was down to the mid-60s, it was an easy adjustment. It would have been even easier if one of my bosses hadn't fucked me over totally -- I'd have entered my next adjustment with about 4-5 times as much savings as I did.

The really tough adjustment was to be dumped totally at age 48 and never be able to seriously reenter the workforce again. To have my identity stolen by a nationwide ring operating out of HP and Fidelity. To be poisoned by a local family employer for 10 bucks/hour.

And it's really tough now at 55 to realize that I've hit about my 6th dead end in as many years, my networth is half what it was 6 years ago and is dropping like a rock.

To realize that barring a miracle, I won't make it to 65 on what I have left. Nobody will hire me. I was a star performer for years. Rated a "1" on performance reviews when the number "1" was banned. Had recruiters calling me prior to the hi tech collapse. Suffered enormously under abusive bosses and coworkers, ran the gauntlet, developed acid reflux, all to save for a retirement that I probably won't live to see. I won't inherit anything. If my father leaves anything, it'll go to my boomer sister, daddy's little princess.

Sorry. 30-40 years old? Plenty of time to recover. It's those of us between the early boomers and the "genx" that have been royally fucked. Nobody will hire a single 50-something woman for anything more than scrubbing toilets for minimum wage. I'll off myself before I consign myself to that fate.

[hot subtle body]

268. I feel for anyone who loses what they have, but in the big picture

they are still doing much better with that one income than many must make do with two! My partner and I lived on less than $15,000 last year. These people's scaled-down salary sounds like a fortune from where I'm sitting.

[roamer65]

273. Their mistake was allowing themselves to become hostage to a 6-figure salary.

I have no sympathy for financial irresponsibility. Whatever happened to "saving for a rainy day"?

[varelse]

279. Happy New Year and welcome to your new job.

One that pays 30%, 50%, 70% less than your old one.

That's right: With more than three job seekers for every opening, more workers are having to take significant pay cuts to find employment.

"For people who have been laid off, this is obviously a buyer's market," said Ravin Jesuthasan, a managing principal at Towers Perrin. "We're seeing pay levels in new positions coming down."

In fact, 63% of unemployed workers said they would be willing to accept a job offer that pays less than their previous job, according to a recent survey conducted by the National Employment Law Project. Still, only 37% of respondents expressed high confidence in finding a job in the next four months despite being willing to make such a sacrifice.

Nearly 2 million jobs were lost in 2008 and economists say the unemployment rate, which stands at 6.7%, will continue to rise into 2010.

This article isn't about "them", it's about "us". The "other 90%" who are clawing each other's eyes out (apparently) in competition for 50% of the resources offered by this shrinking economy. You know - the people who need to show up at a job (or three) for their walking around money. Most of the 2 million jobs lost were NOT paid in six-figures, and yet those were the "poster boys" chosen. Why? Possibly to keep us divided and fighting amongst ourselves for the crumbs, envious of the 80%'th percentile dwellers instead of morally outraged against the greed and lust for power of the mythical 1st percentile... Somehow, I think that point has been lost on most of us.