Blacks Versus Gays

[angee_is_mad]

Is this what it is coming too? Should we just have a big throw down and who is left standing get to call themselves the most victimize group?

Give me a FUCKING break!!! I am a Proud Black woman who has been a member of this site for years. I have bitten my tongue so much over the past month with the threads about Prop 8 and Rick Warren.

Will Blacks be blamed for the Apocalypse when it happens? Will Gays have to continue hiding who they truly are to the ones they love the most till the end of time?

We live in a fucked up world were we will always be marginalized to some extent. As long as there are ignorant people there will be prejudices. Its not right but its reality.

I have read posts implying that Gays has had it worse then blacks. Are we now keeping score? Well I have one for you. Blacks have to deal with racism and colorism. It is the 21st century and some of us still have to deal with that shit. Once a Black child is born you better believe that there is someone in the family looking at the baby's ears. If you don't know what I'm talking about, ask a black person.

Minority (and Gay) groups need to band together to make this country a better one. Playing this scoring game is not going to bring that older Black woman to be empathic to Gay rights when she is told that the shit she went through in the 50s was NOTHING compared to what gays go through.

Not being able to get pass what happens in ones bedroom doesn't excuse the fact that a Black person is being discriminating toward someone who has been physically abuse because of who he/she loves!

I'm sure I will get bashed for this post (what else is new)but I had to say something. There are numerous posts about how this group doesn't understand what that group has to go through. Well I understand. Now what?

NOW WHAT?

[Starry Messenger]

1. Who said that gays had it worse than blacks?

I hope no one is trying to play a scoring game. That would be really offensive. I hope everyone is coming to a place where all rights are granted to all Americans.

Peace, MPK

[angee_is_mad]

4. Emotions running wild

and in some of the threads there seem to be that implication on both ends and vice versa.

[Starry Messenger]

7. It's definitely an emotional week.

:hug: But I think there is good work happening quietly on the edges.

[akbacchus_BC]

26. Sorry to burst your bubble, but blacks have it worst. Our Gay friends

are not that transparent! Blacks get pulled over for driving a decent car!!

Move to Canada you people, we have a lot of land space and we want you!

[Starry Messenger]

28. I wasn't making an assertion either way.

I was asking if the claim had been made on this website. I'm sure many of us would love to move to Canada...money is still a problem though, eh? I still like it here. It's a funny little place but I'm used to it. :)

[akbacchus_BC]

31. yup, money is a problem and plus we have a mini bush here! I'd marry

any of you in a heart beat, if you wish to relocate?

America set the stage for other countries to invade another country. Fricking sad!

[Starry Messenger]

34. Careful, you might get a flood of applications!

I'm good for now.

As for our Invasion Decade, I'm hoping that comes to an end soon. I am old enough to remember a few years ago when we Americans weren't invading this country and that with impunity. Here's to better days. :fistbump:

[Spectral Music]

53. And there it is.

That's the underlying belief.

[Hieronymus]

I felt the same ... this is not a game.

[Starry Messenger]

35. Thanks Hieronymus.

It's dead serious.

[Hieronymus]

32. I felt the same ... this is not a game.

[Karenina]

41. There is NO "versus" in it that's of ANY USE to ANYONE.

As Angee so eloquently stated, the only relevant question is, NOW WHAT?

[AZBlue]

54. Oh, there have been quite a few threads claiming that.

It's seriously making me question my desire to be a member of DU much longer.

[Starry Messenger]

Ignorance abounds on the internets.

I've seen posters assert that gay rights only started a few decades ago. I figure all we can do is educate with links and engage positively when possible. This shouldn't be a contest.

[AZBlue]

130. No it shouldn't.

Pain is pain and intolerance and bias are wrong no matter who, no matter when.
It is scary to see some things people write, huh?

[complain jane]

154. "all Americans" - exactly. Thanks MPK n/t

[PBS Poll-435]

2. Self-delete

:-)

[murielm99]

3. You will not get bashed by me.

It would be great if gays and black people could stand together and help each other. That would be an unstoppable coalition.

I have a little better understanding of the GLBT issues because my daughter is gay. But I saw the ugliness of the fifties and sixties as black people worked toward more civil rights. Sometimes I think things have not gotten any better for them. Blacks are just more visible, not more equal.

P.S. Please enlighten me about ears?

[angee_is_mad]

8. Prediction how dark baby will be

because being a DARK black person is not a good look. Especially for a woman.

Of course things have changed, but you still have some black families who are knee deep into colorism.

[Starry Messenger]

18. I'd heard of that.

Do you think that attitude is still prevalent? Or do you think it is fading away with the coming generations?

[angee_is_mad]

19. Its not prevalent

but it does exist. If you are an attractive Dark Skin black woman you are referred to as a pretty black girl. Its like saying you are pretty to be so dark. If you are lighter that distinction is never made. You are just pretty.

Here is a link about colorism.
http://www.mysistahs.org/features/colorism.htm

[Starry Messenger]

22. Thank you for the link.

I hope for a day when all of us can be celebrated for beauty on our own terms. It's weird, even though I am white I went to a Catholic school that was so Aryan that I got called names for being a brunette with brown eyes.

[murielm99]

23. Of course.

I have had colorism explained to me.

The first time I learned about it was in the sixties. A couple of friends of mine got married. HIS parents did not approve of his choice in brides because she was "dark."

The whole discussion came up again in my group of Democratic friends when Halle Berry won the Oscar. I thought Halle Berry looked white, and that was why she was acceptable. I wondered why a dark-skinned woman who was a serious actress in a mature role was not considered. I was re-educated on how few serious roles there are for black women, and how colorism taints everything.

Many of us here have a lot to learn about both black and gay issues. I include myself in that. I would like to learn it without all this god awful flaming.

[AyanEva]

58. I've gotten that before and I'm not even that dark

I'm just sort of dark honey brown with a healthy dose of red due to a great grandmother being Chippewa but some of the "compliments" I've received from other Blacks were basically, "You're kind of pretty...for a dark-skinned Black person." I'm like "WTF? How light is your 'light-skinned' threshold if my medium brown skin is too dark?" And even if I was very dark skinned, so what? :-( It's just another shade of brown/tan and just as pretty as the next.

And I'm mid-twenties btw, so colorism is still out there and going strong.

[Terran]

75. Don't you think it's still rather prevalent in television and film?

Especially among women, seems like all the well-known names are light-skinned women; darker men seem to be more acceptable, although not all that much more.

Now that I think about it, stand-up comedy may be about the only venue where you can succeed based on your talent and not your looks, e.g., Whoopi Goldberg, and Bernie Mac.

[angee_is_mad]

80. Yes, it is

if there is a venue that is based on appearance, the dark skin sista is going to come out on the bottom most times.

Look at all the Hell Michelle caught during the campaign. There were some people who probably couldn't get pass her brown skin and wanted to lump her into black stereotypes.

[Terran]

88. Yep. Dark-skinned woman = "angry black woman"

Light-skinned woman = actress/Miss America/talkshow host

Maybe people should try reading Nikki Giovanni.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Giovanni

[Karenina]

115. And check out those eyebrows!

:scared:

[NashVegas]

81. I Thought That Stuff Had Died Out

Years ago.

Yesterday I was speaking with an acquaintance, a Haitian immigrant who's been here for several decades, who told me that none of his girlfriend's fathers ever liked him upon initial meetings. He attributed it to physique (body builder) but I wondered ...

Anyway, I had assumed that with all the African immigration of the past 15-20 years, that stigma was decreasing. I'm sorry to hear it hasn't.

[Kahuna]

37. It's fading away. At least where I live. nt

[marimour]

132. its is still prevalent in the south.

I actually was at the hospital last week visiting a friend who had a baby and 3 or 4 people checked the ears when they first saw the baby to make sure he wouldn't get too dark.

I'm part of a few message boards dedicated to black women and their interests and the longest threads are about colorism. There is one going on now over 100 pages. I've known dark skinned women with real long term emotional issues because of their negative feelings about their skin color, often told to them while they were kids by adults and even their parents. I've also seen light skinned women tormented in school by darker skinned girls because of the perceived "privileges" they have by being light. I've had some of these same experiences as a light skinned woman in GA. Basically it can be really deep and I feel more damaging to us as black people than racism.

[marimour]

133. self delete

double post

[Number23]

149. Angee, I'm a black chick from the SWATS and I've never heard about the ear thing

But NOTHING surprises me when it comes to black folks and skin color/hair texture. :fistbump:

Perhaps no one in my family does it because most of us tend to be brown to yella.

[Tom Kitten]

5. Native Americans had it even worse

some of them were even gay!

[akbacchus_BC]

33. How sad!

[XemaSab]

6. Word

n/t

[LittleBlue]

9. I think some of the GLBT community went way overboard

and did nothing but alienate those who supported them.

They are still doing it. The black vs. gay threads are blatant flamebait, yet they are allowed to continue.

[Starry Messenger]

11. Funny. I still support equal rights.

I am straight. I must have missed the memo.

[LittleBlue]

13. I do too

but the Warren issue is a red herring compared to Prop 8 and other blatantly discriminatory laws already on the books in dozens of states.

The fixation with Warren was a waste of time.

[Starry Messenger]

14. I guess we will find out.

I hope you are right.

[complain jane]

155. I disagree

Warren's a huge proponent of Prop 8 who swayed supporters with lies about gay people and what gay marriage would bring.

Opposition to him is not a waste of time, he and people like him are what keep the anti-gay initiatives going.

He's not the 'red herring' compared to Prop 8, he and people like him are what caused it to pass.

The discriminatory laws on the books are only on the books because of people like Warren.

[sniffa]

43. And why there will be more Warren threads

[Karenina]

184. GOOD! Expose that gasbag for the bucket of slime that he is!

GUTEN RUTSCH, SNIFFA! :hi:

[lukasahero]

56. No one who supports gay rights should be alienated by gays speaking out

If your "support" for their rights is that thin, perhaps it's not real support at all.

[Karenina]

59. Speaking out is one thing.

"Friendly fire" is quite another. The elephant in the room is that some small bit of it ain't so friendly.

[Starry Messenger]

69. Some of the threads on this issue a couple of weeks ago

were preemptive "Warren is speaking and here is why it doesn't concern me" from straight folks. Which prompted the situation we are in now. I think we can all forgive a bit of rudeness when emotions are running high.

[lukasahero]

73. If your support is dependent on how politely ("friendly") people voice their disagreement

then it's not support at all.

[Karenina]

86. If I were to respond purely emotionally to your insinuation, lukeykins

as has been done much too often here, I'd just tell you to go piss up a rope. NO AMOUNT of tomfoolery from faceless blips on a message board could ever influence my commitment to EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW in any way, shape or form. I've been involved in music, theater and dance all my life. As such I have been privileged in my global exposure. MY SUPPORT is an outgrowth of my experiences over nearly 6 decades with family, friends, neighbors, teachers, mentors and lovers. I have been there, done that and assembled ALL the clues anyone with half a brain could need to get the "big picture" which is EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.

You needn't question my support, sweetikins. There's no "them" here, just us. :pals:

[lukasahero]

95. That's ok, honey child,

If I were to respond emotionally to your post, my post would be deleted. Your condescension has been duly noted. It's no wonder some of "us" feel others of "us" don't really care about "us".

[Karenina]

102. You read my post as condescension???

From my lofty societal post as a li'l ol' black lady who's been running this stupid treadmill for some time now? Goodness knows, I AM getting tired. You sound just like my kid back when he was a pissed-off post-adolescent. I got your back, anyway. Für immer und ewig. Guten Rutsch! :hi:

[lukasahero]

108. Your subject line called me "lukeykins"

Yes, you were condescending.

FTR, I'm not gay so my back is not "exposed" for you to cover. I, however, have your back on civil rights issues and that support won't waver just because you didn't ask politely.

[Karenina]

113. I apologize.

[complain jane]

156. I don't think that's what the poster you responded to was saying.

It seems clear to me.

[Umbram]

67. Agreed.

I disagreed on a rather small rhetorical point (albeit insensitively) and was told that I probably really enjoy watching gay people being bashed/beaten/killed and it could even be a sexual fetish for me.

That's enough for me to think some DUers are idiots, but not enough to change my 100% support of marriage equality and civil rights, or to change my belief that Warren is 100% an idiot and a bad choice as a speaker, etc.

Edited for grammar.

[lukasahero]

71. "That's enough for me to think some DUers are idiots,"

Well, there is that.

I would offer, however, that some DUers are really hurting right now (for many good reasons) and might be lashing out at the vast swath of insensitivity to their pain here at DU as well as what is viewed as betrayal by Obama.

It never ceases to amaze me how insensitive the "winners" can be to those who feel their hopes have been dashed.

[Umbram]

146. I'm not sure

that there are any winners in this matter, though I am sure there is plenty of insensitivity.

[yardwork]

127. And some who claim to be part of the black community also went overboard.

There have been terrible posts and threads here - just terrible.

[Sultana]

10. PREACH!

:headbang:

[Trillo]

12. It's my hope that having a Black President

will bring some healing to the Black community.

I know it's at least somewhat tangential to your topic, sorry about that.

[angee_is_mad]

15. Healing to this country

that's me hope. I wanna be like Rodney KiNg, "CAN WE ALL GET ALONG?"

[janx]

16. It's a false analogy. I understand your anger. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

42. Seems to have been a tactical analogy

for whatever reason.

[Withywindle]

17. Great post. I hate the false dichotomy.

It also makes it seem like all black people are straight and all GLBT people are white. NOT the case, not by a long shot. I hate oversimplification.

[dkf]

20. The thing about racism vs. sexual orientation is that

race gets passed down from generation to generation while sexual orientation does not.

That actually makes the effects of racism harder to break out of than sexual orientation, where natural and adopted kids do not have perpetuating socio-economic situations that can last for generation after generation.

I would even venture to guess that the average same-sex household has a higher socio-economic status than the average American, which would make their kids even more likely to succeed in life.

Then again, maybe I am wrong in that assumption. Who knows.

[Withywindle]

76. This is a common perception but it's not true.

I would even venture to guess that the average same-sex household has a higher socio-economic status than the average American, which would make their kids even more likely to succeed in life.

Doubt it. Maybe some lucky households that live in areas where employment and housing discrimination against GLBT is illegal, among people who are already favored by economic patterns - but not necessarily "average." You're thinking of the fashionable white gay men you see on TV. Remember, income disparities by gender still exist, so a household that consists of two WOMEN will be doubly affected by that. Particularly if they're not white, as many GLBT people aren't - victims of double and triple discrimination aren't going to be wealthier on the whole than people who only have to deal with one form.

[Karenina]

91. Bingo!

[noamnety]

125. I know others addressed this already

but beyond their direct refutation, I'd ask you to question the logic of that statement itself - just on the basis of cause and effect. Warning: I am going to use ridiculous over the top language here to demonstrate why the media stereotypes are so absurd. :)

The media assumptions would have us believe that either:

Wealthy people are more likely to be attracted to same sex partners - genetics and orientation are affected by special rich cooties in the mom's uterus.

or

(flipping around potential cause and effect) If you date a same sex partner, you are given special magic powers that make an employer more likely to offer you a pay raise, and your 401k magically earns more than straight 401k's.)

[Withywindle]

147. Well, gosh, of course.

Think of all the money you save when you can't share benefits with your spouse! When you have to hire lawyers just to do all the reams of paperwork for a semblance of the protections straight people can get in 24 hours with an Elvis impersonator in Vegas. Think of how much energy you have when you can't sleep at night worrying if your child custody or medical power-of-attorney rights are solid. You could become a superstar entrepreneur with all that brainpower. No wonder GLBT people all have such fabulous apartments and dress so well.



(Ya never know, so :sarcasm:)

[akbacchus_BC]

21. Angie, please calm down!

[angee_is_mad]

24. Talk me down, lol

talk me down. I just had to let it out.

[akbacchus_BC]

25. Angie, no need to get so upset! We are all on here for a common cause!

[angee_is_mad]

30. I'm not the one

to be saying this to. Have you been reading the various posts?

Thanks for the concern and I am calm and not upset. I just want to know what the solution is since we all can agree that we have been discriminated against.

Now What?

[akbacchus_BC]

29. Angie, would never talk you down! I am on your side!

[bridgit]

27. No contest...

[Kahuna]

36. The stupid part is, there are BLACK GAYS!!!!! Now what?? Are black

gays against black people too??? This shit is crazy.

[Luminous Animal]

38. You want to work together?

Then you stop playing the Oppression Olympics. You stop telling me how much more difficult it is for you to exist in this world. You think it is easy to "pass'? Then tell me this, Angie, would you trade being black for white? If tomorrow, you could trade being black for white would that give you peace of mind? Would that make you feel "safe"? Would then feel as if you had achieved civil rights because you passed?

[Karenina]

40. You are W-A-A-A-Y behind the curve on this one.

I understand from other threads that you believe haranguing people is how to "agree with them." Is it dialect?

Here's something more constructive and effective.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8041868&mesg_id=8041868

[Luminous Animal]

44. Angie flat out challenged queers to engage in Opression Olympics...

"Are we now keeping score? Well I have one for you. Blacks have to deal with racism and colorism. It is the 21st century and some of us still have to deal with that shit. Once a Black child is born you better believe that there is someone in the family looking at the baby's ears. If you don't know what I'm talking about, ask a black person."

Indeed, that fucking sucks. But what the hell does that have to do with LGBT civil rights?


So again, if Angie thinks that passing is such a benefit, would she trade being white for black?

It seems the one important disagreement here is that is sooo much easier for queers to pass. And I am asking, if it were an option, would any AA here hide their color in order to assimilate?

[Karenina]

45. Your ignorance is showing. Here, do something CONSTRUCTIVE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8041868&mesg_id=8041868

[Luminous Animal]

47. No surpirse that you dismiss me.

[Karenina]

49. It's your personal behaviour on this thread that I dismiss.

I've seen the same pattern on too many others and find it obnoxious. Now if you find us here so very repellent, may I suggest use of the Hide Thread or Ignore features. Then again, doing something CONSTRUCTIVE always makes a body feel good. :pals:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8041868&mesg_id=8041868

[angee_is_mad]

52. I do not support passing

and there is no where in my post stating that. As Karenina stated your ignorance is showing. Poor thang:-(

It seems you are part of the problem and not the solution. If this is an example of your AA outreach, God help us all.

[Karenina]

55. Girlfriend, that impertinent interrogation

set my teeth so on edge, I thought I was having a bad acid flashback! ;-) There's a civil discussion here, if you haven't seen it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8044472

[ieoeja]

57. Luminous Animal does have a point.

You post an OP saying we should not be comparing the two groups to see who has it worse ... then include a claim in that same OP saying that African-Americans have it worse. That does invite a counter-claim.

Or so it would seem to this straight, White guy.

[angee_is_mad]

66. I was giving an example of internal racism

trying to make the point that there are some blacks who are not accepted by their families because of HOW they look. That point actually shows how much blacks and gays have in common.

There are some gays who are not accepted by their family because of who they are and there are some blacks who are not accepted in their family because of how they look.

[Balderdash]

60. I was listening until this part. The other poster

is right.

[Terran]

77. Did you even read the OP? She did nothing of the sort.

She did the exact opposite, in fact.

[shellgame26]

46. Huh?

[Karenina]

39. Uh-oh! Now angee_is_mad!!!

:hide:

[AtomicKitten]

48. all boats rise together (except for the ones with anchors)

People have to stop blaming and resenting each other for the cards they were dealt. Oppression is wrong and the only way out is together.

[1776Forever]

50. The 14th Amendment and Quotes on Gay Rights & Civil Rights of All by Coretta Scott King

I for one do believe in the 14th Amendment as stated in this abstract which shows the connection between the two groups:

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/8/7/4/8/p87480_index.html

Abstract:

While the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution has been interpreted by the U.S. Supreme Court to protect African American civil rights since the 1950s, it was first cited as protective of gay and lesbian civil rights only in 1996. This work analyzes the new social construction of gay and lesbian civil rights within the historical context of African American civil rights. I find that such a comparative analysis is key to understanding contemporary debates relating to same-sex marriage, since same-sex marriage policy is richly based upon the historical struggle in U.S. society to recognize interracial marriage. Furthermore, though the complicated hierarchy of legal case scrutiny created in recent decades by the Court seems incompatible with democracy and indicates to us that Fourteenth Amendment values of equal protection and due process cannot be taken at face value in the American system of government, I find that the Court's new inclusion, albeit limited, of gays and lesbians in the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment shows us that the U.S. Constitution can still be a significant and promising source of rights. The Court now understands sexuality, like race, as a fixed characteristic. By constructing gays and lesbians as a legal entity in need of protection, the Court is making it easier for them to challenge discrimination.

AND

Coretta Scott King on Gay Rights

Category: Gay Rights
Posted on: February 7, 2006
by Ed Brayton

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/02/coretta_scott_king_on_gay_righ.php

(snip)

Mrs. King spoke often to gay rights groups and always spoke out strongly for gay rights. In 1998, just a few days before the 30th anniversary of her husband's assassination, she noted the obvious similarities:

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."

She also noted that her husband believed that all struggles for equal rights were bound together and that it was necessary to fight against bigotry in all forms, not merely the form that affected you personally:

"We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny...I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be," she said, quoting her husband. "I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy."

And she pointed out that many gays and lesbians had fought for black civil rights, demanding that blacks return the favor:

"Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement," she said. "Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."

But perhaps her most eloquent statement on the subject came in 1994, again invoking the words of her late husband in support of equal rights for all:

"For too long, our nation has tolerated the insidious form of discrimination against this group of Americans, who have worked as hard as any other group, paid their taxes like everyone else, and yet have been denied equal protection under the law...I believe that freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience. My husband, Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." On another occasion he said, "I have worked too long and hard against segregated public accommodations to end up segregating my moral concern. Justice is indivisible." Like Martin, I don't believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others."

Coretta Scott King's strong and clear voice for freedom and equality will be sorely missed.

..........

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." MLK - Says it all!

[angee_is_mad]

62. Mrs King was against Gay marriage

but supported Civil Unions. Rev. Lowery feels the same way. He recently stated that he did not support gay marriage.

There is definitely a disconnect on here. Below is a link to an interview Rev. Lowery gave about the inauguration and the Rick Warren controversy.

http://www.wikio.com/video/716896

There are a lot of blacks who feel this way. It might wrong, but it is real.

If blacks support civil unions, what is the nudge that need to be applied to have them to support gay marriage. I asking for strategies and solutions not monologues about how one group is better or smarter than the other.

[merh]

70. Please consider my comments in this post (after the quoted language)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8044472&mesg_id=8044505

I personally do not believe that I could ever abort my fetus or that I could help a loved one get an abortion. That is my personal feeling about abortion. I am, however, pro-choice and do not believe anyone has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body and/or judge her for what she has done. Only God can judge, too many "christians" make the mistake of judging - they go against the teachings of christ on a daily basis while condemning those they believe are the sinners.

Many christians forget the lesson of the man they revere, the only lesson where he spoke about "sex" - he said to judge not lest ye be judged when the crowd tried to stone the adulteress.

As for Lowery's comments please understand, he is speaking honestly about his personal views yet he says, despite them, he opposes any law that discriminates against citizens because of their sexual orientation.

Because of the deep seeded roots concerning marriage — in our hearts and minds — for a man and woman, many people, including me, have concerns about the concept/term 'marriage' and experience a degree of cultural shock when faced with same-sex partners. Nevertheless, I am strongly opposed to propositions or amendments that put into law any discrimination against citizens because of sexual orientation."

I ask you again to consider my other post. I do believe that religious men can hold a religious view and not allow that view to interfere with the constitutional rights of others. The separation of church and state does exist, you have to make a conscious effort to keep that separation but it can be done and is done frequently.

[angee_is_mad]

78. God Bless you

Now this is what the purpose of my thread was about. One may not condone the lifestyle, but one need to protect the right to that lifestyle.

I genuinely feel that most black people support civil rights for ALL people and support civil unions for gays. Its the gay marriage point that is the last hurdle to cross. There are blacks who can't get their heads out of the bedroom with this subject.

[Starry Messenger]

79. Part of the problem is the use of the word "lifestyle".

It's not a lifestyle. That's why it is important that issues like this are not put to popular vote. There are too many misunderstandings about the community.

[angee_is_mad]

83. Its not a choice

I know, but many view it that way. That is the problem and we need to work together to enlighten others.

[Starry Messenger]

85. I agree!

[merh]

92. The struggles for civil rights are very personal struggles and that

is why the varied perspectives and interpretations.

The best way to approach the discussion about the struggles is to separate the legal from the cultural or the religious.

Some have posted about families rejecting children, that is not a legal issue that can be resolved by equality laws.

If you get the chance please research the Loving v. Virginia supreme court case and all the background you can find. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia Then, perhaps the next time you are sitting around with blacks who just can't get it, who can not put their religion aside, you can bring up the Loving case and talk to them about the laws against interracial marriages. Ask them to imagine being sentenced to a year in jail for loving a white man. Encourage them to see the similarities and to understand how wrong it is to deny others happiness.

That is all we can do, try to help folks understand that equal protection under the law is the right of every citizen of the USofA.

[angee_is_mad]

98. An answer to Now What

That was the purpose of my thread. Now What are we going to do? I wish there were more threads like this.

[merh]

101. I've appreciated our discussion, thank you for the wonderful exchange

of ideas.

what is it Obama said on the campaign trail? We are the change we have been waiting for?

I think that was a challenge more than it was a slogan, I consider it as such.

If we want change we have to do more than ask for it or demand it, we have to be willing to work for it.

[1776Forever]

128. Please read this 2004 Article in USAToday: Coretta Scott King gives her support to gay marriage

Posted 3/24/2004 11:30 AM

Coretta Scott King gives her support to gay marriage

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-24-king-marriage_x.htm

POMONA, N.J. (AP) — The widow of Martin Luther King Jr. called gay marriage a civil rights issue, denouncing a proposed constitutional amendment that would ban it.

Constitutional amendments should be used to expand freedom, not restrict it, Coretta Scott King said Tuesday.

"Gay and lesbian people have families, and their families should have legal protection, whether by marriage or civil union," she said. "A constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages is a form of gay bashing and it would do nothing at all to protect traditional marriages."

.......

I have been reading about Rick Warren going to Atlanta to speak at the 2009 MLK Day Service, and had read that Coretta Scott King and some of her children give support to same-sex marriage, but some do not. I also read that Rick Warren was asked to speak before the announcement of the Obama Invocation was broadcast.

........

Controversial Rev. Rick Warren to Speak at King Memorial Service

By Matthew Cardinale, News Editor, The Atlanta Progressive News (December 22, 2008)

http://www.atlantaprogressivenews.com/news/0416.html

(APN) ATLANTA – Controversial pastor Rick Warren of the Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, who at least once has compared homosexuality to incest, has been booked to be the keynote speaker at Martin Luther King, Jr. Annual Commemorative Service, according to a copy of the program obtained by Atlanta Progressive News.

The service is scheduled for January 19, 2009, at 10am, at the historic Ebenezer Baptist Church and is included in the official program of the ten-day King Center’s Martin Luther King, Jr. Celebration which begins on January 10.

........

What can one say?

:shrug:

[vaberella]

51. What blows my mind is how ignorant people are to the fact that there are Black Gays...

What do they say to those of them who were married or planning on getting married?! There's this nice little hidden racism that keeps cropping up and the blame for all things horrible directly related to Blacks that is further instigated by the media. What kills me is that Blacks aren't even the majority in California to have much of a power. I always wonder if Prop8 would have still passed if not one single Black person voted.


The issue is not about those who voted, but who had the power to put it on a ballot to be voted on when it was the right of the people.

[Eric Cartman]

61. Yes, it would hvae still passed.

That poll, the 7/10 poll... it was a lie.

[Bluenorthwest]

63. Your thinking is very odd for me

Because when I visualize 'gay people' in my mind, many of them are 'black people' too. So this division and total seperation that you see is out of my experience in life. So your 'us' and 'them' thinking does not play in my world. It is flawed thinking that requires the denial of the large group of men and women who are members of both communities, to whom we should all be listening with ears well bent toward understanding. You way pretends that many of my favorite people never existed. I will not play that game to fill your preconcievd notions that 'gay'='white'.

I'd like to say that attitudes toward GLBT people are always toward your own people, no matter who you think your people are, for we are of and in all places and families. I'd offer that those attitudes extract a great price in life and death terms, in all of those places and families. I'd offer that many non gay people, largely women, pay the price for homophobia in various communities as much as the gay people do. That is why your us and them ways must go and go fast. Sorry to tell you, but we are you. You are us. Welcome. We have lives to save. That is the level at which this whole discourse should be set. We have lives to save. No time for fussing, no time for fighting. Wasted too much already.

The whole way DU has approached this subject matter is so far beneath what I am used to, and what is easily possible, that it makes me ill. It is about life or death. Among our people, the humans.

[LWolf]

64. I don't know why you are surprised.

The primaries were about "blacks vs women," which, as a black woman, you must have noticed.

Until the human race evolves beyond competition, these disconnects will happen as long as issues are framed and defined by groups identified by their differences, rather than their commonalities.

[marimour]

134. Oh I definately noticed!

I remember all the sexism is worse than racism comments around here. I actually heard a few of them in real life, from white women of course.

[Lex]

65. Has a black person been kicked out of their own family for being black?

Have they've been maligned as perverts by their own preacher, sitting in their own family church?

In this day and age, have they been told to their face they are being fired from their job for being black, yet have no legal recourse under the law? Told they cannot adopt a child because they are unfit, by definition, because they are black?

Blacks aren't suffering quantifiably MORE or LESS than gay people. It's different in many ways, but it is a civil rights struggle.

We should all be supporting each other, not whining about who has it worse.

[angee_is_mad]

68. probably for being TOO black

and have been told by their mother (and family)that they are ugly which digs into self-esteem issues and unhealthy life choices looking for acceptance. But that is a whole different topic.

The main thing is we have all suffered. Now What? What needs to happen to make blacks get beyond the thought of homosexual sex? I feel most blacks support civil unions, but the marriage issue is a hurdle that some can't get over and it probably has to do sex.

[Karenina]

72. Exhibit A on display, once again.

Has a black person been kicked out of their own family for being gay? Think about it... :think:

NEWSFLASH!!! AMERICAN Latinos, Asians, Blacks, Native Americans, Arabs etc et al ALL have LGBT in their ranks. Can you even imagine how UNFUCKINBELIEVABLY DISMISSIVE and INSENSITIVE your questions might sound to them? :think:

[Lex]

84. WTF?

:crazy:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

87. Except that's not at all what she was arguing.

[Karenina]

105. Would you be so kind to help translate?

:shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

107. "Has a black person been kicked out of their own family for being black?"

That was Lex's question to Angee in response to her OP.

You responded that Lex's question was insensitive to minority GLBTs even though her question had nothing to do with it.

It was simply making the point that black people are not disowned by their family solely for being black, yet GLBTs are frequently disowned for being gay.

[Karenina]

114. And THAT POINT is where you are BOTH WRONG.

That is ALSO where you BOTH IGNORE the commonality of the challenge and "Existenzangst" ALL GAY PEOPLE (teens in particular) share, of being accepted by family and community.

[Lex]

116. I'll be damned if I can figure out what you are talking about.

" . . . all gay people (teens in particular) are accepted by family"

Okay.

[Karenina]

118. Sorry, I wasn't clear but was in time to edit.

Brainfart.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

117. Did you even read my post?

It was simply making the point that black people are not disowned by their family solely for being black, yet GLBTs are frequently disowned for being gay.

I said GLBTs, not "just white GLBTs." And you still mischaracterized Lex's statement (deliberately or not) and didn't even answer the question she was asking in the first place.

[Karenina]

119. Black people HAVE BEEN disowned by their family solely for being TOO black.

Please tell me you are totally unfamiliar with caste systems. :eyes:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

120. Fine, for being "too black."

Is there a sliding scale for gay people? Would families not disown them if they were a "little" gay?

Is it a shock to a black person's family that their kid is black in the first place?

:eyes:

[Karenina]

122. Enough.

:hi:

[Number23]

150. Enough is right. The post you replied to is easily the stupidest post I've seen on DU

"Being put of their house for being a little black/gay...?" "Sliding scale for blackness/gayness...??" :wtf: :wtf:

Enough is right. It's not worth it and no one has the time...

[Starbucks Anarchist]

165. Yet you had time to complain about it.

:eyes:

[HamdenRice]

168. Enough indeed. It's hopeless to argue with "word salad" nt

[Karenina]

124. delete

[HamdenRice]

162. Are you saying all gays are disowned by their families? I don't think so

You're making a pretty preposterous claim. I know gay and lesbian people whose families are progressive and open minded, who embrace their children.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

164. No, Hamden, you're making shit up again.

I never said they were. Point me to where I said it.

[Karenina]

174. Please help us all out here, SA.

What ARE you saying? :shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

176. It's more likely to be disowned b/c one is gay rather than "too black."

Nobody who is "too black" has to come out to their family, because their blackness is readily apparent. This is not always the case with gays.

Also, I'm not saying one is worse than the other, or that gays have it worse than blacks, or vice-versa, but rather that both groups share similar struggles and also diverge when it comes to other struggles.

[Karenina]

177. So now imagine you're "too black" AND gay...

:shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

178. That's a valid but separate issue.

Lex's post split the argument into blacks and gays, not both together.

[Karenina]

179. WHOOMP! DEY IT IS!!!

Ah, yes! Separate issues like this!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4740636&mesg_id=4740764

That old elephant in the room again! CLEAN UP ON AISLE 4!!!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

180. Okay...

:shrug:

[Number23]

188. Oh shit!!!

CLEAN UP ON AISLE 4!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[kwassa]

100. Yes, black people have been kicked out of their family for being too black.

Google "Colorism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorism

Colorism in the United States is a practice that began in times of slavery due to white slave owner's beliefs that anything that was black (African) or associated with blackness, was inferior or lowly. Common practices of the time were to allow the slaves with the lighter complexion(more commonly the offspring of the slave masters and their slaves) to engage in less strenuous usually domesticated duties, while the darker, more Afrocentric looking slaves participated in hard labor, which was more than likely outdoors.<1>

The "brown paper bag test" was a ritual once practiced by certain African-American and Creole fraternities and sororities who discriminated against people who were "too dark." That is, these groups would not let anyone into the sorority or fraternity whose skin tone was darker than a paper lunch bag, in order to maintain a perception of standards. Spike Lee's film School Daze satirized this practice at historically black colleges and universities.
_________________________________________________________

Colorism is prevalent in the job application process as well, research shows that a light skinned African American male with a bachelors degree and mediocre experience is more likely to be hired for a typical job than a dark skinned man with an Masters in Business Administration and past experience in the field.<3>

They might be maligned by their preachers if they don't go along with the theology of a bible-thumping church.

They can and will be fired from a job for being black, but their employer will be smart enough to find some other "reason", or just not hire them in the first place, also for another "reason". Housing discrimination works the same way.

[Lex]

112. Black against black racism exists certainly

but that wasn't really the point.

[vaberella]

106. Yes, especially if they're gay. And let's not forget colourism a byproduct of racism.

Many a Black person has found themselves mistreated and abused because of how "dark" they are.

[marimour]

135. yes they have.

Plenty of mixed children given up by their white mothers at birth because of the color of their skin. There are a ton of them in the adoption system. Their family didnt even give them a chance. Also plenty of mixed children who grow up without the love of their grandparents b/c they wont accept any black babies.

[MrScorpio]

74. I'd really hate to see how gay blacks have to deal with all the ruckus around here

They might as well declare themselves the biggest winner, pick up their marbles and go home

[Terran]

82. I've been telling my (black gay) partner about all this mess at DU

and his response is that it sounds mostly like people whining about their white privilege being infringed on. I feel that's a broad brush, but I also think it's true for some people here.

[kwassa]

89. I would agree with that.

[Terran]

93. I abhor comparing peoples' suffering, but

there are some absolutes that are comparable. Looked at purely on the basis of economics, white gay men and women are in general better situated to compete economically, with or without same-sex marriage, than black men and women in general, straight or gay. That, I think, is what he's focusing on. Issues of hate and prejudice are not so easy to compare.

[kwassa]

97. I agree again.

I find much of the comparison a-historical. Aside from a few civil rights icon, I don't sense a depth of knowledge about the black experience in this country among many of the noters here.

The other issue that isn't dealt with is that America is still largely segregated on a social level, even if the modern workplace is more integrated. This includes the gay social world which, as many black gays have noted here, is generally not integrated, and many gays, in my opinion, have little personal contact or knowledge of black people. Their shock on the black vote on Prop 8 is testimony to that lack of knowledge. There is an assumption of a bond that many in the black community don't see.

[Terran]

104. Agreed on both points

(and so well said). There was an interview linked on americablog (I'll see if I can find it) after the election with a woman who's the director of a black gay organization in southern California. She discussed how her agency offered help to the main Prop 8 opposition organization by doing outreach to the black community, and they turned her down. I think that shows, aside from sheer foolishness on its face, a mistaken belief by the leaders of the Prop 8 opposition that they knew how black people would vote on the issue, and were sorely mistaken.

Edit: here are links to the interview in question...very telling, IMO.

http://www.americablog.com/2008/11/no-on-8-reportedly-thought-black-vote.html
http://twodown48togo.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/prop-8-town-hall-it-was-almost-a-dismissive-response/

[knowledgeispwr]

110. I'll be interested in that interview if you find it.. eom

[Terran]

111. I added the links in Message 104, above. n/t

[marimour]

137. thats a shame.

It seemed like people on DU were truely shocked at the way black people voted. I think they assumed that b/c they were minorities they would have their support and didn't need that outreach. But ask anyone in the Black, Hispanic community and they could have predicted exactly what happened. It was a very bad move on the part of the No on 8 organizers. I hope they have learned from that mistake.

[angee_is_mad]

141. Only thing I can say is "WOW"

Wow. Can somebody at least buy a clue:shrug:

[kwassa]

144. This excerpt shows the cultural gap in play

http://twodown48togo.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/prop-8-town-hall-it-was-almost-a-dismissive-response/

They wanted to use the word marriage, and you suggested marriage wasn’t a word to use with the African-American community?

Correct. For me, personally, for ULOAH, I wanted us to showcase who was funding Prop 8, and really focus on that because we know how the black community responds to marriage. If we knew the Mormon Church was one of the top supporters of Prop 8 possibly (the African-American community) would have backed off, we would have said, “hmm, let’s here a little but more about this Prop 8 and who is actually behind the scenes.”

That was our strategy, was just to give light to who was in full support of Prop 8, who was funding it. And that approach, it didn’t phase them, it was like, “No, that’s not a direction we want to go in. We want to talk about marriage equal for all, we want to talk about civil rights, we want to we want to talk about what Blacks have gone through in the 50’s and 60’s and equate that to the experience we are currently in right now,” and that is not the route we wanted to take. So I would say there may have been some issues with the approach and the agenda…and we perhaps couldn’t come to a meeting of the minds on that.

[Number23]

151. Yours and Terran's posts on this have been absolutely wonderful

Thanks so much for the information and the thoughtful discussion. Thoroughly enjoyed that... :)

[marimour]

136. great post. The gay community in Atlanta is extremely segregated.

It goes so far that there are 2 separate Pride weekends. The white one and the black one. I think thats why most of my gay black friends identify much more with the black community as a whole than the gay community. And if a black gay person doesn't feel close to the gay community as a whole then how can we expect black straight people to identify with the gay community?

[kwassa]

142. Two separate and segregated Pride weekends?

That is a sad commentary on social progress in this country.

and a great point about the black gays relating more closely to the black community.

[Karenina]

159. There goes that "elephant in the room" again...

;-)

[angee_is_mad]

90. WOW

watchoutnow!!!!! I can't believe you went there:scared:

[Terran]

94. Just relating what he's saying

But you're right, I'm wearing an asbestos suit right now.

[Karenina]

96. BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Come hang with me down here :hide: I got :popcorn: AND Dr.Pepper!!! :rofl:

[knowledgeispwr]

99. Pass some of that popcorn!

:popcorn: I'll take it with some sweet tea (I'm black, gay AND southern).

[Karenina]

109. Babydoll, I got me here some sweet TURKISH tea

and HUMMUS I picked up from the Kurds down the street! Come on down! :hide:

[donco6]

103. Gays have it worse than blacks? Who is saying that?

I'd really like a link to that one. Seriously.

[marimour]

139. added a link.

I don't remember whether it was explicitly said but that is the general feel of the thread below. I have also seen it said within larger threads recently.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8043627&mesg_id=8043627

[ismnotwasm]

121. No bashing from me

Bigotry and prejudice and racism and sexsim are social cancers, but the experiences of those things between Blacks and Gays haven't always been the same.

Which mean exactly nothing. Because Bigotry and Prejudice and Racism and Sexism *are* the social cancer. This may sound a bit dramatic, but I feel those who are invested in power, whether political economic or religious, don't want to give it up. They need the Other to keep power.

And one of the best techniques is creating "Us and Them" whether it's socio-economic differences, racial differences, or gender and sexual differences/roles. If we keep at each other throats, then the instigators walk away. The "more oppressed than thou" attitude is painful and counterproductive. I understand the anger, I understand the fear, and I have to confess right here that I'm a straight white woman who doesn't have to deal with any of it on a daily basis.

But, my dream is a massive rally, a march, a protest, with all colors all genders, all sexual oreitations, thousands strongs, walking down the street rejection all of this bullshit. Abjuration of it, to use an old word, complete and total.

(In it's very short version-- My Personal Belief-- is that much of homophobia/hate stems from fearful White Men who having always been in power, want to stay in power, and it has to do with dominance and sexism)

[Karenina]

123. Great post!

:toast:

[yardwork]

126. Please know that most gay folks are not interested in comparing struggles - we WANT to ally with you

You're a woman and so am I. I'll bet that we could trade stories about sexism in "our" minority groups.

I wouldn't dream of saying that one group "had it worse" than another. That's just divisiveness. I've seen that here and out in the real world and I don't agree with it. I've seen it from all sides.

The majority patriarchal corporatists WANT minority groups to oppose one another. They have a strong interest in keeping trouble stirred up between people. Why? Because if we united, we'd be bigger than them. They might not be in charge of everything.

Please remember that not everybody here on DU is who they say they are. Just saying.

Oh, and k&r.

[Top Cat]

129. Kick

[Divine Discontent]

131. Angee is mad, indeed! It can all be a little ridiculous, I agree.

There's always a few percent of EVERY damn type of person who try and make the rest of their 'type' look bad. As you know, thugs try their darndest to make black people look like a bunch of animals out to steal and smoke up as much crack as they can get their hands on - now is that reflective of the African-American community? Hardly. Just like there's a few percent of sleezy gross immoral gay men who go out trolling every night for a dude to give fellatio to - married or not! Now, what's funny about that - is that there's a pretty equal percentage of each race that does BOTH of those things - there is no war by the mass Gay society at large against their fellow humans (blacks), but there are a few percent on each side that want to fan the flames of hatred in believing there's a war between AA's and Gays. I don't believe that - I just believe that both have had some in their community see the absolute WORST humanity has to offer - which is having themselves be martyred by bigots who wanted to kill them for simply being different.

You understand. So there's nothing wrong with you, I won't be yelling at ya!

[angee_is_mad]

138. Can we work together?

As a straight black woman, how would a gay person (any color) reach out to that little black woman in church who tithes and usher every Sunday morning and teach Sunday school?

More than likely she want you to have protection against discrimination and violence, but will stop at the marriage issue. As far as Prop 8 is concern, and not being from Cali, what can of outreach did the gay community do in the black churches and the greater black community? If there was outreach, we need to figure out what went wrong and make it right.

[Divine Discontent]

158. I take it upon myself to talk to nearly every person I can, when the chance happens

for me to slip in that I'm gay in a very subtle one comment manner, it's usually because the other person has mentioned something that either asks me about my likes in a person, or has mentioned their Straight g/f or b/f, or spouse, and I take advantage of that for them to potentially meet their first openly Gay person. I have had much success at being a good representative of people who have Gay as a sexuality.

Now, in regards to your question - good one, all I can say is that Gay people can try to be a good rep for decent people who behave properly, but in regards to reaching INTO that church, I would think there are people in every church who should feel secure in speaking to their fellow church goers about it, however, I can see them getting rebuffed by the pastor very easily, or even fellow congregants. It really takes a person in the community you're trying to reach, so in this instance, a black celebrity or local leader is helpful. I wish they would have put Samuel L. Jackson's FACE on the commercial where he read about California's history of racism against AA's, Japanese, and Latinos in the past, and how it's wrong to treat Gays any differently, b/c I was like, that's Samuel's voice, but was so dissappointed they just showed pics of the history stuff, but he wasn't shown.

It's a long road, but I think the discussion about this has galvanized the anti-Prop 8 people, and if it's even permitted to be put back in the people's hands (I hope not, civil rights shouldn't be voted upon, and I'd prefer the courts to rule upon it, just like with the Civil Rights struggle for minorities 50 years ago), then I think we'd vote in Gay marriage rights this time, as many people have admitted they didn't think about it very well, and, I've met several people who just didn't understand if yes meant yes to rights for gay people, or no! Everyone isn't as educated as everyone else, and some say they didn't understand.

take care...

[jesus_of_suburbia]

140. Nevermind. Let's just please get along. (edited)

[SmileyRose]

143. All I want to know is why do they look at the baby's ears?

I clearly need an education. I've sat here trying to think of why a family would be concerned about a baby's ears, beyond are they there and do they look like Uncle Milton's......there's obviously something important I'm missing.

Please, I beg you, take pity on a white woman and clue me in.

[angee_is_mad]

145. Read #8

and the ones that follow. It all has to do with colorism.

[Catherine Vincent]

152. I don' t think they look at the ears purposely.

They only do it when the newborn is quite fair and they notice that a part of their ears are a little browner which will be their true shade. If the newborn is brown or darker, they don't bother looking at the ears because their shade will not change. A lot of newborns are fair and as they age, they get darker. People do the ear thing because they are obsessed with color. It's silly. We should explain the paper bag test too. You're probably saying "paper bag test...wtf?" :)

[angee_is_mad]

153. It's amazing how much we don't know

about each other, especially when we think we know everything:cry: I have been around people who will pull out their baby pictures to show how light they use to be.

[dulurkernomore]

170. Amen to that

Long time lurker very new poster. I am black, bi-sexual, female, heading into middle-age (ouch!) and partnered with a white woman in very conservative Indiana. So I have alot of opportunities to be oppressed, and claim victim hood. I choose not to play the game.

But Angee, your posts reminded me of the color prejudice that we black folks like to keep in the community and that most white folks are not aware of. Here's one for you....I was recently at a new beauty shop with a straight black man doing my hair. Bet you can say what the first thing was that he commented on. BINGO!! "Girl you got some good hair." If I hear that one more time I'm gonna scream. This is 2008 almost 2009 and we still are doing that to ourselves. I tell this to my partner and she is like huh? I think most of us are so clueless with regards to other minority groups that we have to start learning about each other's struggles and issues. That may help to foster conversation and give us a place to start healing.

[merh]

160. Okay, I knew about the ears

but I'm not familiar with the paper bag test. Please explain and inform.

:hi: :hug:

[Karenina]

163. Oh, merh... That "paper bag" test

is some most nasty ick. As a teen I was denied entry to some social functions because my skin colour is DARKER than a brown paper bag. I didn't have "good hair" then, (Now I do! :rofl: ) or "light eyes" either, although the shade of brown (now surrounded by blue) is much more common on this side of the pond. THESE DETAILS ARE IMPORTANT, YA KNOW!!! :silly:

"Colourism" is the African-American community's legacy of slavery. Die Mauer in Kopf, so to speak. My W.I. grandparents (where the Africans and Europeans caught "island fever,") were generations miscegenated. Records were dutifully maintained. We have every combination and permutation that could be imagined.

Though most of us are SO OVER IT, childhood "issues" are still being resolved. My take is that our offspring have less and less patience with such distinctions. The KNOW them, are aware of how they have been used and find them stupid, offensive and annoying.

[merh]

166. Now I had never heard of the test

maybe, as you say, the younger generation will be kinder and will let that test and others become a part of the past. Hell it's hard to get paper bags these days, most everyone uses plastic and now, for the first time, I am glad that paper bags are not used like they once were.

My boss/best friend is a very light skinned black man, he said that he has had to deal with some folks not trusting him because he is too white. I know that there are trust issues, they don't trust me, the white woman working for him. Working for him has been a learning experience for both of us.

[Karenina]

169. It's the same doo-dah on a different day

Years ago I saw a feature on WDR (not a day passes that some reminder of this country's history goes unmentioned) where an old woman was interviewed about her school days during the Third Reich. She related how the teacher had the blondest of blonde girls stand in front of the class as he waxed poetical about Germany's future. She as a brunette was an outcast. She broke down on camera as though this decades old experience had just occurred yesterday...

[merh]

171. It is one hell of a balancing act this thing called life.

As humans, it is hard to forget the pain, but do we let that pain drive us or mold us? If we forget what caused us the pain, we may find ourselves repeating the acts and causing others the pain. If we don't know where we came from how can we appreciate how far we have come?

Are we victims or survivors; champions or bullies?

After all these years the golden rule still seems to be the best rule. It is as simple as it is difficult.

As for me, all I can do is continue to try to understand and with folks like you in the world sharing with me what you know and how you feel, it gets a little easier to understand. Thank you for taking the time.

[Karenina]

172. Are you familiar with the musings of Tim Wise?

Here's a recent gem:

http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/holocaust-denial-american-style

[merh]

181. wow, I like how this man thinks

If we are to be thankful at this time of year, we should be thankful for their example. We should be thankful that within us resides the spark of decency that animated their resistance to the plans of the colonial elite, and later the Washingtons, Jeffersons and Jacksons of their day. We are capable of so much better than they, and we deserve far better role models than we have been offered up to now, by our teachers, or by syndicated columnists and talk-show hosts more interested in covering up evil than celebrating true bravery.

Thank you for the link, I've bookmarked his site.

[SmileyRose]

173. My most profound apologies - but am I confused?

This is a whole new thing for me. Are you telling me that other black people refused to let you join their group because you are too dark? I'm hoping I misunderstood you. I see a lot of racism amongst whites, and I've seen and experienced severe mistrust and suspicion by blacks toward whites generally, but the very idea blacks would judge each other based on skin tone is a head scratcher for me. I'm thinking I misunderstood you.

I'm so overloaded with thoughts on this right now that I'm not even sure I can process it all.

I'm thinking about the "untouchables" in India. I always just assumed it was the British that did that to India and someone from there told me the caste system there goes back eons, long before the British took over.

The whole idea of "colorism" boggles my mind. I think I understand, but it just seems like the stupidest thing ever along with every other sort of bigotry I can think of.

[Karenina]

175. The "colourism" shit is EVERYWHERE. Riddle me this

What single product is the cosmetic industry's BIGGEST SELLER?

[dulurkernomore]

182. Oh I know....I know the answer!!

It is very sad that the oppressive things done to us by our masters were picked up and carried on by the oppressed. There are so many examples of how we have internalized our own form of caste system within our ethnicity. From our skin tones to the textures of our hair, to the shapes of our noses and lips many blacks judge either other by some of the most f'd-up criteria. I have a 20 year old niece that still goes through alot of that.

[Karenina]

183. I feel for your niece. I know it's not over yet.

Sis and Cuz finally got together bei mir a few years back. One is "too dark" and the other "too light." During their visit, amidst many tears, all the shit got vomited out into Tante K.'s lead-lined bucket and properly incinerated. They were both OFF American soil, which somehow made the exorcism much easier. One joke I regulaurly share with my Yurpeen homies is:

White women obsess about their weight. Black women obsess about their hair. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[angee_is_mad]

187. In the AA community it is bleach

I was talking with a black make up artist a few years ago. She was doing an event in Jamaica and she told me that women were mixing skin bleaching creme with relaxer. Their faces were are burned up. Remember this was within the last 10 years.

[Karenina]

189. Wait. Were they looking to relax their faces

and bleach their hair simultaneously? :freak:

[angee_is_mad]

191. The lye

in the perms were thought to boost the potency of the fade cream and make it stronger. Guess they want to look like the Jacksons.

[Karenina]

193. Oh, dear...

But the sales of skin bleach and hair relaxer added together and DOUBLED would not even approach the sales of the #1 cosmetic seller! ;-)

[Catherine Vincent]

190. And it doesn't happen with Blacks only.

Hispanics and Asians are that way too (some of them).

[merh]

148. This thread has some very good discussion.

I'm sorry it was moved but am glad it still exists.

[Karenina]

157. Helped along in no small measure by your contributions!

:yourock:

[merh]

161. aww, you are too kind

and no shrinking violet, I might add. You've added a great deal and I thank you for helping me to better understand things.

[stillwaiting]

167. Dear Angee

I'm new to posting here, but have read threads here for years.

I'm a proud gay man. I'm also white. I have also noticed posters from both the black and the gay communities either outright stating their plight is worse than others or seriously implying it. I agree with you that we should not be comparing our suffering. I stand with you in fighting against ALL discrimination and repression.

My recommendation to all of those individuals who are getting offended is to let your liberal, progressive mind filter through the anger being expressed. Realize that the anger (be it from a gay poster or a black poster or any other minority poster for that matter) stems from A LOT of pain and suffering. I cannot fully know how trying it is to grow up black in America, but I will listen and continue to learn. Likewise, unless someone grew up in a conservative, Southern Baptist household and is gay, one cannot know the hell I've been through in my life. The isolation I felt for two decades, and the self loathing I had to work through by myself is still so very painful.

I will always stand up forcefully against racism. Being a liberal I do have a very strong sense of empathy, and I have had many opportunities to stand up against racism in my life in a variety of ways.

I believe that we, as a nation, are at a potentially watershed moment for gay civil rights. I truly believe that we will see an even larger outpouring of public anger in the near future. Unfortunately, history shows this outrage must be demonstrated in order to garner change. Prop 8 was a galvanizing moment for many progressives, but I feel a larger moment awaits.

I will never get mad or frustrated at any black individual who is angry, feels the need to complain, rant, etc. for I realize that often times it is not just the one specific incident that is the cause of such anger, but a lifetime of accumulated experiences. Likewise, I would ask for others to realize that it is not just the selection of Warren that has caused such a groundswell in the gay community and from our allies. It is many, many things that have accumulated over the years. Warren and Prop 8 have been catalysts to help us release our anger, and it has been cathartic for many while dealing with continued injustice.

I try not to pay too much attention to all of the claims being made about who has had it worse. I'm personally dedicated to trying to change this world for the better for all those who face such treatment. This requires speaking out in my everyday life to those who think differently than I do. It's been bad for blacks and for gays in this country. Real bad. Let's fight for each other.

P.S. I'm pretty sure both blacks AND gays will be the cause of the apocalypse. Wouldn't you agree?

;)

[merh]

185. welcome to DU

your post is worthy of it's own thread. I'm glad you took the time to share with us.

:hi:

[Karenina]

186. Me too, Stillwaiting! We all are, eh? WELCOME!

:hi:

[angee_is_mad]

192. Welcome

and thanks for posting.