"If a couple of guys in a garage can engineer this, what are the car makers doing?"

[DogPoundPup]

Electric Drag Racing

WATCH: http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
(Oregon Public Broadcasting)

[madokie]

1. Thanks for the link

looks good. My neighbor has a geo he converted to electric and it'll burn the tires right off the car if he so chooses. Electric motors have their most torque at low rpms, actually just off from the rotor setting still.

[Puzzler]

6. Actually, electric motors...

... have a flat torque "curve" right from the start. A better way to put it is that they don't have a torque curve at all. Electric motors produce a constant amount of torque throughout their operating range.

[madokie]

9. I'm not so sure thats always true

on a dc motor the torque goes down with an increase of speed. Maybe someone with a little more knowledge on motors will fill us in on how it all works. I do know that different types of electric motors have different characteristics and I don't think any of them have a flat torque curve. I'm all ears and eyes to learn differently though :-)

[Tesha]

14. Electric motors definitely do have a "torque curve".

For conventional DC "series" motors, they generate their largest torque
at standstill because when they are not rotating, they are not generating
any "counter EMF" to oppose the power voltage imposed on the motor.
So the only limit on the current flow through the motor-at-standstill
is the resistance of the windings. It's for this reason that "traction
motors" on trains and the like were commonly DC "series" motors;
until they heat up and reach their thermal limits, they can generate
enormous torques to accelerate the train (or other load).

And even with AC "induction" motors, they generate the most torque
at low RPMs. As they approach "synchronous" speed, the amount of
current induced into the rotor decreases so at synchronous speed,
they're not putting out any torque at all. (That's why induction motors
only "approach" synchronous speed but never actually achieve it).

All of this is not necessarily true for the relatively-rare "synchronous"
motors or the ever-more-common "brushless DC motors"; with these,
the torque is entirely dependent on how the electronic controls
operate. The drive motor in a modern hybrid or pure-electric car is
of this design as well.

Tesha

[madokie]

16. Thanks

[Tesha]

15. Electric motors definitely do have a "torque curve".

For conventional DC "series" motors, they generate their largest torque
at standstill because when they are not rotating, they are not generating
any "counter EMF" to oppose the power voltage imposed on the motor.
So the only limit on the current flow through the motor-at-standstill
is the resistance of the windings. It's for this reason that "traction
motors" on trains and the like were commonly DC "series" motors;
until they heat up and reach their thermal limits, they can generate
enormous torques to accelerate the train (or other load).

And even with AC "induction" motors, they generate the most torque
at low RPMs. As they approach "synchronous" speed, the amount of
current induced into the rotor decreases so at synchronous speed,
they're not putting out any torque at all. (That's why induction motors
only "approach" synchronous speed but never actually achieve it).

All of this is not necessarily true for the relatively-rare "synchronous"
motors or the ever-more-common "brushless DC motors"; with these,
the torque is entirely dependent on how the electronic controls
operate. The drive motor in a modern hybrid or pure-electric car is
of this design as well.

Tesha

[Tesha]

20. (Sorry about the duplicated reply; DU bugged out on me.) (NT)

[ThomWV]

29. Not exactly true

They don't produce a constant amount of torque in the sense that power output from any electric motor is a function of how much electricity you stuff in the front end.

[gravity]

2. Car manufacturers have to make cars that go more than a few miles

The concept of making electric cars has been around for over 100 years. The hard part is making an electric car that has a long range, a practical size, and a decent price.

[Puzzler]

7. Yeah, the problem is the batteries/range.

It's not difficult to produce a fast electric vehicle with a short range. Remember, drag racing is usually done in 1/4 miles (sometimes 1/8ths as well). Depending on the car, a typical drag race will be over in seconds. Electric cars are needed to operate reliably for hours.

You'll know something's up when these guys produce an electric car that can compete in a much longer car race.

[defendandprotect]

18. See: "Who Killed The Electric Car?" ....

The oil industry has certainly done well in its propaganda to convince everyone

there is no such thing as electric cars!

[EnviroBat]

34. You have seen this right?

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/30/telsa-confirms-model-s-sedan-225-mile-range-and-60k/

[defendandprotect]

48. We've already had thousands of electric cars . .. .

on the highways in California. Everyone wanted to buy them --

but manufacturers wouldn't sell them. Crushed them all.

And the batteries even at that time were being substantially advanced.

Prices were low enough for everyone who had been driving one of these

cars to want to buy them. Again -- manufacturer wouldn't sell them!

[Idealism]

3. Three things came to mind

1. How much did all that modification cost? He never mentioned how much money or time he spent on it.
2. If the lead batteries are in the rear seat, that considerably cuts down on the usefulness to a family of four
3. He had to manually replace his entire trunk that was filled with batteries because the power ran out. They didn't say how long the batteries can hold their charge for, and it is exponentially harder to "fill up" (they had to get a metal worker friend of theirs just to install the new batteries).

Other than those concerns, that is a really neat video. Probably not viable for everyday driver, but impressive on the track!

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. It was a purpose-built dragster

He replaced his lead-acid battery pack with a lithium ion one... he didn't replace the batteries "because the power ran out". His old battery pack was sized to hold enough energy to get his car down the track x number of times. His new pack was sized to yield the same energy at lighter weight.

If I had to guess, I'd say that he has invested $50k in his car. For him, it's a business. He will recoup his investment through sponsorships.

A daily driver will be designed to yield the results desired.

[ret5hd]

4. I wonder how much he would charge to make my little Ford Ranger...

a plug in electric with a range of about 60 miles? My round trip to work and back is about 50 miles, but i don't need that kind of acceleration.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

21. Sounds loke a cool project

I would like to do something with my SportTrac, perhaps putting some solar panels on the roof to charge while parked at the office/store.

[seabeckind]

22. From some googles a while back

I found some pretty interesting stuff going on when I was doing some research earlier this year. You might checkout:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/

Apparently the Ranger is one of the easier ones to do. I would try it for my Ranger (costs somewhere between $6k-$9k for lead acid batteries and manual transmission) but the engineering is beyond my capabilities.

I found that there are many things, like Linux (spare me the flames), where I would spend all my time learning to do something and then forget why I was there in the first place.

Sure would be nice to have some standards -- but, then again, we're lucky to have any functioning gov't activities after the last 28 years.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. 60 miles is pushing the limits of today's (affordable) technology.

http://www.evalbum.com/2087

That conversion probably cost $15k and he has a 50mile range. With lots of LiFePo4 batteries, regenerative braking and fairly exotic stuff ($40k?) it would probably go 100 miles.

[ret5hd]

27. Re: 50 mile range...

If someone says an electric vehicle has a 50 mile range, does that imply 50 miles at highway speed, or are you limping along at 5 mph that last 1000 yards?

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. Usually, people report their maximum prudent range

i.e. to 80% depth of discharge (dod). If you routinely discharge your battery pack, you significantly shorten its life.

You know what they say, "your mileage may vary". If you can only go 25 miles from home before you must turn around, it's unlikely that freeway travel will be more than about 50% of the total mile... unless your driveway is at the onramp and your destination is at the offramp.

If I had to guess, I'd say that most people average about 40mph on their normal trips.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

5. A guy in his garage made this a few years ago

24-year-old Ferry Porsche introduced the world’s first zero-emission vehicle at the 1900 Parisian World Exhibition. Using a wheel hub electric motor design, with no transmission or gearbox, the design was revolutionary, and caused quite a stir. (On loan from the Technical Museum in Vienna, Austria, the vehicle will be displayed outside of Europe for the first time, at the Los Angeles Auto Show.) Less than a year later, the young inventor added two internal combustion engines to charge the front wheel hub motors, creating the world’s first hybrid vehicle. The vehicle was shown at the 1901 Parisian Auto Salon.


Porsche: The World's First Electric Car

[defendandprotect]

8. The car manufacturers work for the oil industry . . . that's what they're doin' . . .

[Romulox]

11. Every car manufacturer, in every country in the world works for the oil industry?

Really?

You would think just one, say Nissan, or Renault, or Fiat, or Daewoo would have escaped their influence. :shrug:

In fact, one might argue that the simplest explanation is the the technology for a cost-effective 100% electric car is not there yet. Which would explain why no car company offers one to the mass market.

Or, you could argue a conspiracy that involves every auto manufacturer in the world. :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

17. Unfortunately, the technology for electric cars has long been there . . .unused--!!

See: "Who Killed The Electric Car" . . .

And, I was speaking of American car manufacturers producing over decades cars

with low mpg. American manufacturers were producing cars with much higher mpg in European

countries and not putting them on sale here.

When car manufacturers aren't doing the oil industry's dirty work, often our

legislators are doing it. California had legislation to change things ---

rather, the legislation was changed.

[Kalyke]

33. See "Who Killed My Pocket Book"

That movie is all well and good and has some interesting theories; however, the bottom line for electrics, hybrids and all other oil-alternative vehicles comes down to "can the average Joe afford this" and/or "will the average Joe spend x-amount of dollars on a bare-bones electric when he/she can have a plethora of features on a non-electric for the same price"?

This is what the car companies are grappling with.

For two straight months, trucks have outsold cars, specifically full-sized, crew cab Ford trucks. The American people will have to change before the market.

[seabeckind]

10. I've been silently screaming

I've been silently screaming about this issue for quite some
time now. Halo and Puzzler raise some valid points but I think
those comments relate more to the current state of
transportation points of view than the facts of transportation
requirements. Halo says that while the conversion in question
is impressive, it's "not viable for the everyday
driver". Here I would very respectfully disagree -- I
think that this concept is ideal for the "everyday
driver" -- well maybe not the acceleration part, but the
range and size part definitely.

If we look at actual everyday driver requirements we don't see
a family of four with luggage tooling down the highway for 300
miles to visit gramma. What we really see is a single person
travelling less than 100 miles a day back and forth to work
and sometimes picking up a kid or the wife at the mall on the
way home. Or maybe doing some other short distance chore.

We also don't see a guy zipping down the interstate at 80mph.
Maybe on the outskirts of town or on the weekends that's true
but when he gets on I5 between south Tacoma and downtown
Seattle during rush hour he's lucky to do 45. Most times it's
just a long skinny parking lot.

The other thing we don't see in the everyday driver is a guy
loading 12 sheets of drywall in the back of his pickup at the
local Lowes. If he is, he's a worker doing that in his job.
Most times all that's in the back of that pickup is some
leaves or a beer can.

I could probably get a better idea of actual vehicle everyday
driver requirements with more research but personal laziness
becomes a factor. But just based on personal observation, I
suspect that if we had an electric vehicle with the following
stats we could eliminate more than 50% of total personal
vehicle miles (probably much more if you look at the
http://www.bts.gov/ Transportation Statistics):

     2 passenger (or 1 and some golf clubs)
     small luggage space, enough for 3-5 paper bags of
groceries or some sports equipment
     80-100 miles on a charge
     60mph top speed

And if we made this thing affordable to the common man, say
less than $11,000, I think they would fly out of the showroom.
I consider myself common and I sure couldn't afford one o'
them Volts.

The possibilities become even more viable if we start looking
at modular configurations, eg, a trailer that can be hung off
the back that'll handle some plywood or an appliance when
needed. Or a battery trailer. Even better, a cheap rental of
these things.

When the first cars came along there were no gas stations, the
gas stations came as a result of need. This is also true of
electric cars. A while back in another thread a person made
the statement about these cars and battery capabilities:
"It's a freakin battery..." Who says we can't have
battery stations?

Now if someone will tell the people of america that buses are
not mass transit and neither are trolleys going on city
streets we might move up to the 21st century. No wait, that
gets us into defendandprotect's comment.

So let's not try to solve all of our vehicle requirements with
a single vehicle. Let's do different configurations for
different needs. That family of 10 might just have to stick
with the family truckster for a while longer. But there won't
be nearly as many people in line at the gas station. 

[Romulox]

12. If you truly believe such a car can be made in a garage, what's stopping YOU

(or the drag-racers in the garage, or Tesla motors, for that matter,) from marketing such a car? Hmmm....? :hi:

[seabeckind]

13. Oh, if only.....

If I had the bucks (and were young again, or at least
younger), I would do such a vehicle. I would also start up a
cottage industry to convert that '95 5.0 Mustang convertible
(65k miles) I've got on the other side of the garage to an all
electric. Studied some of the spec sheets for these things but
way beyond my ancient curriculum.

I really like the looks of that NICE car (don't have the link
handy here), an all-electric from Fiat I think, based on the
SMART, but it's only available in europe. A little more than
the $11k, more like $15k.

So why can't our car companies do these things? Afterall it
looks like they'll be coming into a bit of cash soon. Why
can't they do what IBM did so many years ago when they had an
unyielding technological mainframe group -- start up a
satellite operation (ala the Saturn) to do independent
development? Afterall, they've got a bunch of empty plants.
Surely they've got a couple of engineers available.

[lumberjack_jeff]

25. DIY ev conversions are within the reach of normal people.

If you're content with 50 mile range, you can do it for about $10 grand.

http://www.evalbum.com/build
http://www.evstreet.com
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/
http://www.nabble.com/Electric-Vehicle-Discussion-List-f25542ef25542.html

White zombie is only peculiar because he's chosen a large controller (which, alas is not currently available) two motors with the shafts coupled together, and batteries with a very high discharge capability.

I'm a-gonna build a early 90's S10 with 24 6 volt lead-acid batteries.

When that's done, I'm going to do the same thing, but with LiPo4 batteries, to my Chevelle. And yes, I anticipate 50 miles range in that too.



(that's my son and his girlfriend)

[defendandprotect]

19. We should also not forget the need to recreate mass transportation which....

has also been sledge-hammered by the oil industry/car manufacturers.

[seabeckind]

23. There are a couple of good articles

in the mass transit group (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=398). You might check them out.

Also there is an initiative going on right now to get a high speed rail going across the country. I think Biden/Spectre introduced the bill earlier this year. Watched a link on the underground a couple weeks ago where he talked about it.

Who knows, maybe we might just catch up to Europe. Believe me, the Eurostar blows American Airlines away. I could actually hear my wife talking next to me and maintained feeling in my legs.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. White Zombie! I knew it, when I saw the thread title!

That. Car. Is. Completely. Awesome.

An 11 second Datsun. LOL!

[robcon]

28. Electric cars are no panacea.

We will need a huge breakthrough in battery technology before battery-powered cars are practical.

[ThomWV]

30. And they will also require a massive investment is nuclear power

Because you are not going to power transportation in this nation with windmills or by burning switchgrass.

[Statistical]

31. Exactly. Electricity (and H2) is not a fuel.

It needs to be produced.
Right now if we replaced every car in US w/ electric car we would have most coal cars.

Most of our electricity is produced by coal so electric cars would be HIGHLY polluting.

You are replacing burning gas (oil) in the gas with burning coal at a coal plant, losing a lot of electricity is transmission, then storing it in a battery and then using it.

Just because there are no emissions from the "tailpipe" doesn't mean there are no emissions from the entire system.
I always find it funny and sad when I encounter people who are pro electric cars (or pro H2) but anti nuclear.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. Nonsense.

1) the systemic extraction, refining, transportation, delivery and finally burning the fossil fuels currently in your fuel tank consumes far more resources than an ev could ever dream of. Coal represents about half of the electricity generated nationwide, but imported oil represents almost all of the current transportation fuel.
2) In most areas of the country, renewable sources of energy are massively underutilized. The exception being the northwest which gets most of its electricity from hydropower. In my case, 50% of my electricity comes from renewable sources. Input your zip code here to see how your electricity is generated
3) Even with the worst case option; a coal fired electricity generation facility is much more efficient at turning btu's into Kw than a gas powered car. Efficiency = less greenhouse gases.
4) Nuclear is not the only alternative to coal. It's the same kind of false dichotomy that got us into the Iraq war.

http://www.slate.com/id/2179609/

[ThomWV]

46. Twice in one day I find myself thinking the only word that can possibly be applied is 'delusional'

If you think for one moment that the EV is somehow divorced from the 'systemic (sic) extraction, refining, transportation, delivery, and finally burning of fossil fuels' then delusional is the only word that I can find to use and it comes back into use when you suggest that "renewable" fuels can somehow substitute for the fuels used to supply existing energy demands, let alone the demands that will certainly increase in the future.

Our fossil fuels result for what might be thought of as hundreds of thousands of years of energy compaction where as renewables bring with them just a moment's accumulation. Its a case of you simply can get there from here - renewables (with one great exception* that is not being pursued with any vigor worth mentioning) do not provide enough energy to meet needs and besides that, the places where they are concentrated are not where energy is used and in case you didn't know it you can not transmit electricity by wire more than about 200 miles - beyond that all of the energy will have been lost to heat in the line. We have no substitute available for wires and even if one were invented tomorrow replacement of existing lines or building of new ones would take decades.

*exploitation of tidal action

[IDemo]

54. "you can not transmit electricity by wire more than about 200 miles"

Wrong, as the following shows. Power losses result from the flow of current through line resistance.
To get around that, you step up the voltage through a transformer(s) which steps down the current:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission

Losses

Transmitting electricity at high voltage reduces the fraction of energy lost to Joule heating. For a given amount of power, a higher voltage reduces the current and thus the resistive losses in the conductor. For example, raising the voltage by a factor of 10 reduces the current by a corresponding factor of 10 and therefore the I²R losses by a factor of 100, provided the same sized conductors are used in both cases. Even if the conductor size is reduced x10 to match the lower current the I²R losses are still reduced x10. Long distance transmission is typically done with overhead lines at voltages of 115 to 1,200 kV. At extremely high voltages, more than 2,000 kV between conductor and ground, corona discharge losses are so large that they can offset the lower resistance loss in the line conductors.

Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2% in 1995 <2>, and in the UK at 7.4% in 1998. <3>

As of 1980, the longest cost-effective distance for electricity was 4,000 miles (7,000 km), although all present transmission lines are considerably shorter.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. When you live in WV, you have a distorted view of the electricity supply

In my area, an EV is unambiguous in its superiority.

[IDemo]

53. And I always find it funny and sad when I encounter people who are anti electric cars

Who plainly have no idea what they're talking about.

Most of our electricity is produced by coal so electric cars would be HIGHLY polluting.

Wrong. It has been shown that the per mile pollution produced by electric vehicles is much lower than that produced by internal combustion vehicles.
A study done by Argonne National Laboratory, GREET (Greenhouse Gases, Regulated Emissions, and Energy Use in Transportation) found that electric
vehicles pollute less per mile than ICE vehicles, even in areas served primarily by coal powered plants.



Put plainly, electric motors are extremely energy efficient; over 90 percent, compared to between 25 and 30 percent for gasoline engines.
Even the significant losses incurred in transmission and distribution of electrical power are not enough to overcome that fact.

For an easy to read and understand source, take a look at Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks (PDF)

[defendandprotect]

49. Solar cells seem to be the idea, if I recall correctly . . .

See: "Who Killed The Electric Car?" --

probably at your library.

[defendandprotect]

47. They're way ahead on it --

See: "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

probably at your library --

[Kalyke]

32. Trying to make it affordable for John and Jill Doe.

Seriously - car manufacturers have this technology. The trick is to put it on the market at a price that the average consumer can afford.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. Chevron owns the patent to large NiMh batteries

such as the one that powered the EV1. They won't release it for anything but huge production runs such as the Rav4 ev.

[defendandprotect]

50. This is where government should step in . . .

all of the plants in trouble should be put in hands of workers

and government should subsidize production of electric cars and

the purchase.

But I'm sure the industry can move on without Chevron -- if not,

the government should make sure the patent is released.

This isn't just about gasoline prices, it's about pollution of the

planet and Global Warming.

Every gas-guzzler on the road should be quickly replaced --- common sense.

[DainBramaged]

39. DU, where assumption and reality never cross paths

:eyes:

[TahitiNut]

40. Bias is often buttressed by conjecture and assumption devoid of facts or validity.

If DU had a nickel for every "If ___ then ___ would..." or "So, you think ___..." then Skinner would never have to raise funds again and the moderators would have an endless supply of mimosas in the hot tub.

With all the fans of electric cars and hybrids around here, I have to wonder how many would be happy to have a battery manufacturing plant within ten miles of where they live. The U.S. has absolutely nothing near the battery manufacturing capacity to even sustain current levels of hybrid/electric consumption ... never mind about disposal.

[HughMoran]

41. Alternatives

In spite of the pie-in-the-sky assumptions made in the O/P, if you read some of the posts in this thread from those more in-the-know, you would find that there is good & realistic information in this thread. Oh, and don't assume that battery technology is static and not capable of incorporating recyling - keep an open mind! :)

[DainBramaged]

42. From your lips to godToyHonNis' ears

[seabeckind]

44. When manufacturing plants

wanted to move their operations to save money, one of their main arguments was the do you want this dirty, smelly plant in YOUR backyard?

Obviously, everyone said no and the plant shut down and moved to Sri China or something. But it was a bogus argument. That plant owner didn't care whether we could breathe or that he was piling toxic sludge upstream from our elementary school. No, his motive was strictly money. His option was to spend a bunch of money to clean up an old, inefficient plant or build a nice new fresh one somewhere else that wasn't subject to environmental rules. As a side benefit the plant owner didn't have to deal with those pesky unions.

But we bought the argument and said good riddance -- everywhere in this country. In fact, we even gave the companies incentives to move. That's why we don't make anything here anymore and why we have primarily service jobs.

So if we don't have the capacity to make the batteries we need to eliminate a large percentage of our gas guzzlers, we add the capacity. That's called jobs. And if we can't afford to transport those products clear across the country, we do distributed manufacturing. That's jobs everywhere.

And if we need to build a bunch of wind farms and solar generating stations, we do that. And if we have to upgrade our electric grid to handle the increased need, we do it.

If we need to do a battery plant a couple miles down the road from me -- fine. Let's just make it clean and I can live with it. Be a lot better than living on my knees in front of Exxon.

[defendandprotect]

51. I don't think "WE" were so stupid as to do those things . . .

legislators made deals I doubt we'd have agreed with if we had

any control of the decision making---

[Sanctified]

43. Cool car too bad it requires 20 minutes of charging for a quarter mile run. n/t

[ThomWV]

45. 20 Minutes charging for a 12 second run

So, were you to wish to drive the car for one hour at 60 miles per hour, hence covering 240 quarter miles, would you then expect to have to charge the vehicle 4,800 minutes (80 hours) to recoup the energy expended?

[defendandprotect]

52. Electric cars were viable more than 10 years ago . . .

and thousands were on the roads in California ---

Those leasing them wanted to buy them --- manufacturer crushed them all!

See: "Who Killed The Electric Car?" probably at your library.