What's a progressive Israel supporter to do?

[GoesTo11]

I know there are some others around here like me.

I think like a progressive. I support progressive economic policies. I opposed the Iraq war. I recognize that Palestinians are human beings who have the same feelings and are entitled to the same respect as other human beings.

But when things flare up in the middle east, on the left all I hear is venomous hatred targeted at Israel, and ignorant sloganeering and faulty logic. People saying "Fuck Israel" or "I have had enough of the Jews" or "Jews are the new Nazis", leftists who want Israel gone or even people who are basically cheerleaders for Hamas are not people I have anything in common with. It sickens me.

There has been anti-semitism mixed with anti-Israel sentiment on the left for as long as I can remember. The left's sympathy for the underdog blinds them to the complexities of the situation. I've seen a lot - a lot - of people who actually started out liberal then got fed up with the left because of this and became basically neocons.

I'm not going to stop supporting Israel. I know a lot about the issues - more than many posters who have no sense of context at all but just seem to be rooting for their favorite team - so I'm not just going to say "I support Israel but oppose its government." I have mixed feelings about its government, but realistically - looking over what happens in history, I think it's done a better job than the French or the British or German or US or Saudi or Syrian or Iranian or Nigerian or just about any other government would do given the same circumstances.

I feel like the left is correct on many issues but dead wrong on this one, and I feel like the right is wrong on most issues but is (generally) correct on this one (not completely, because they don't care about suffering of anyone not on their side).

So, what does one do here? Say screw it and go hang out with the right wingers even though I think they're idiots? Start fights with progressives whenever Israel comes up? Put my head in the sand for my own sanity and just disengage?

What do you other progressive Israel supporters think? Do you get what I'm saying? Should we tough it out?

What about you progressives who really dislike Israel - Is there any basis for constructive discourse or is it hopeless and you would just like those of us who support Israel to just go away?

Please at least keep this thread civil.

[burythehatchet]

1. I LOVE this sentence

I feel like the left is correct on many issues but dead wrong on this one, and I feel like the right is wrong on most issues but is (generally) correct on this one (not completely, because they don't care about suffering of anyone not on their side).


made me lol

...liberals just have blind spot on this issue and wingnuts coincidentally have a revelation of truth on the same issue.
sweet

[Raksha]

37. Wingnuts have a revelation of truth about NOTHING!

They just believe might makes right, and their so-called support for Israel is just one more manifestation of it. It's not too different from their support for the Iraq war. Wingnuts are great believers in pre-emption, and they routinely confuse bullying with "toughness."

[Kalyke]

58. I liked where he said he knew so much background about the topic.

I'm the ex-wife of a Palestinian and the current wife of a Jewish man. I believe I know all I need to know from both sides.

To the OP: My husband is Jewish and he cannot stand what Israel does to the Palestinians. They continue to encroach on their land and then scratch their heads in amazement that the Palestinians fight back.

[TahitiNut]

2. I, for one, like Rabbi Michael Lerner and the Network of Spiritual Progressives

Their 'take' on Israel and the Israelis who agree with them are, I find, not given enough exposure.

http://www.spiritualprogressives.org/
http://files.tikkun.org/current/article.php/2008122722311446

[Swamp Rat]

5. True, and they are probably the majority too,

but the M$M will not let this through their filter.

[TahitiNut]

17. PEACE, JUSTICE AND RECONCILIATION FOR ISRAEL AND PALESTINE

PEACE, JUSTICE AND RECONCILIATION FOR ISRAEL AND PALESTINE

We are committed to full and complete reconciliation between Israel and the Palestinian people within the context of social justice for the Palestinians and security for Israel. We call upon Israel to end the Occupation, to return settlers to the pre-1967 borders of Israel (providing them with decent housing), and to take major (though not total) responsibility for Palestinian refugees. We oppose Israel’s violations of Palestinian human rights and we insist that Israel adopt a strategy based on open-heartedness toward the Palestinians, repentance for past misdeeds, reparation, and genuine acknowledgement of the ways that some Israelis were oppressive, murderous, and oblivious to the legitimate needs of the Palestinian people. We call for an end to the teachings in Jewish and Israeli schools and media which demean or demonize the Palestinian people; instead we seek to replace those with teachings that emphasize the humanity and goodness of the Palestinian people, Arabs and Muslims. Although we affirm Israel as a Jewish state side by side with Palestine, we believe that all non-Jews in Israel, including most importantly Arab or Palestinian citizens of Israel, should have full civil rights in Israel and equal economic entitlements to any Israeli who has served in the army.

We call upon the Palestinian people to acknowledge the right of Jews to maintain their own homeland in the pre-1967 borders of the state of Israel, with Jewish control over the Jewish section of Jerusalem (including French Hill and Mt. Scopus and the Jewish Quarter of the Old City) and the Western Wall, and unimpeded access to the cemetery on the Mount of Olives. We call upon the Palestinian people to stop acts of terror against Israel and to listen and heed the growing number of Palestinian voices that are calling for a strategy of nonviolent civil disobedience We call upon Palestinians to end all teachings in their schools and media which demean or demonize the Jewish people or Israel and to replace those with teachings that emphasize the humanity and goodness of the Jewish people.

We recognize that some Palestinians will respond by pointing out the structural violence inherent in the presence of the Israeli Occupation and the settlements. We agree with these points, but still believe that the breakthrough necessary to free Palestinians from Occupation will only come when the Israeli people feel enough safety to contemplate arrangements based on trust. Just as Israelis must demonstrate that they see Palestinians as created in the image of God and deserving of full respect, so the Palestinians must demonstrate that they see Israelis as created in the image of God and are deserving of full respect.

Both sides need to recognize a need for repentance for past deeds that were hurtful and oppressive. Jews must understand why Palestinians were fearful that the more highly organized and politically sophisticated Zionist movement that began to emerge in the period might lead to the disenfranchisement of Palestinians, and why Palestinians today feel that "the right to return" to their homes is no different from the right of return that was at the basis of Zionism.

Similarly, Palestinians need to acknowledge their own role in helping create the conflict by their armed resistance to Jewish immigration to Palestine in the years when Jews were being annihilated or when Jews were crawling out of the death camps and crematoria of Europe.

This is just a sample of the stories we must learn from each other so that we can build reconciliation of the heart, based on genuine compassion for each other. Political arrangements cannot be trusted until there is a serious commitment on both sides to compassionate listening to each other. Its only when both sides can tell the other side's story with compassion and conviction, and both sides recognize that in some important respects both sides are wrong and both sides are right that we can hope to move to a real reconciliation of the heart.

All the fancy agreements and all the political maneuvering is secondary to developing an open-heartedness and generosity in both peoples to the legitimate needs of the other. We believe an important step in that process is for both sides to learn how to tell the other other side's narrative in a convincing and compassionate way. This has been done in part in Rabbi Michael Lerner’s book Healing Israel/Palestine, and in the works of various Israeli and Palestinian thinkers who are able to transcend their own community’s demand for proving that their side is the “righteous victim” and the other side is “the evil oppressor.”

We call upon the United States and other world powers to intervene with all their influence and economic power both to stop the cycle of violence and to achieve the creation of a demilitarized Palestinian state in all of the West Bank and Gaza (minus the most minimal border alterations), an end to the Occupation, and an end to acts of terror. We will support efforts to convince the United States to condition aid to Israel on the end of the Occupation. We call upon the peoples of the world to come to Israel and Palestine and actively interpose ourselves between the warring sides to provide protection to civilians on both sides. And we call for all parties to adopt the nonviolent philosophies and strategies of Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi.

Although we do not support any form of nationalism as an ultimate good, we understand why, in this historical moment, the Jewish people need a state of our own. With memories of the murder and genocide of our people still fresh and the perception that we would have been far less vulnerable had we had a state and an army—with the persistence of virulent anti-Semitism in the world today—the Jewish people cannot be asked to be the first to voluntarily eliminate the protections of the nation state. That’s why, at this point in time, the TIKKUN Community is supporting a two-state rather than a bi-national solution to the Israel-Palestinian crisis, even though some members of our community believe that such a bi-national state is the only way to achieve social justice for Palestinians.

After what Jews have been through, it is not reasonable to expect them to be the first to give up the protections of an armed state. On the other hand, we see nationalism as a perverting influence in Jewish life—and one that must be overcome. So we do hope Israel will become one of the first 20 percent of countries of the world to overcome the trappings of national chauvinism, militarism, and excessive focus on boundaries-—say, for example, after the United States, Russia, China, Japan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, India, Pakistan, England, France, Germany, Italy, Egypt, Poland, Argentina, Chile, Mexico, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Uganda, and South Africa have pioneered that path by abolishing borders and accomplished full disarmament. Until then, the Jewish people have a right to their own state, which we hope will eventually move in the direction of confederation with Palestine and Jordan for economic and political cooperation.

A state with many Jews in it is not a Jewish state unless it embodies an ethos of love and justice and becomes a living proof that healing and transformation is possible. Israel is not yet a Jewish state in this sense, so we will support the forces that will help it evolve in that direction. To make it possible for Jewish values of love, justice, and peace to triumph inside its own society, and to open the possibility that Israelis could rediscover the deep spiritual truths of Judaism, Israel will have to eliminate all forms of religious control of the state, end all religious coercion, and allow people to find their own religious and spiritual path, giving equal rights and treatment to non-Jews.

We oppose all attempts by some sectors of the Orthodox world to use the Israeli government as a vehicle to impose their own particular perspective about Judaism, including who is "really" Jewish, what counts as a legitimate wedding, divorce or conversion, etc. We support instead the fostering of a climate of mutual tolerance and respect among all sectors of the Jewish people. We reject all practices which lead to unequal treatment of Palestinians or other non-Jewish minorities within the State of Israel.

So, when we affirm preserving "the Jewish character" of Israel, we do not mean merely a demographically Jewish state but a state which lives up to the highest Jewish values of "love the neighbor," "love the stranger," and "justice, justice shalt thou pursue." In the short term, the greatest obstacle to the creation of a state living up to the values of an ethically and spiritually renewed Judaism are the Occupation, the settlements, and what is described in Michael Lerner's book Jewish Renewal as the "Settler Judaism" mentality.

Settler Judaism sees the world as always against the Jews, always ready to hurt us—and hence rejects universal ethical standards and equates "good" with "what’s good for the Jews." Similarly, settler Judaism assumes that Jewish interests can be achieved through the use of power and coercion, the obliteration of those with whom we disagree, and believes that Jews have some special right to the Land of Israel that allows them to be insensitive to others who live there.

The greatest obstacle to Jewish values in Israel as in the United States lies in the triumph of the ethos of selfishness and materialism. Those who respect Judaism and wish to see it retain its integrity in a Jewish state must reject the vision of an Israel which finds its ultimate mission in becoming "the globalization miracle and new technology and finance headquarters of the Middle East." Rather, we support those who favor a genuinely Jewish society built on principles of love, justice, peace, and caring for others, including non-Jewish others. This path requires rejecting those themes and currents within the Jewish tradition or r interpretations of Jewish history which tend to bring out chauvinism or a narrow focus on the well being of Jews to the exclusion of others, and instead renewing Judaism to focus on those parts of the tradition and Jewish history that bring out in Jews greater empathy for others, and develop the capacities of Jews as loving, generous, open-hearted and compassionate human beings. And it is this same kind of renewal that we support in every other religious and spiritual tradition.

http://www.tikkun.org/core_vision

[Swamp Rat]

24. "... it is not a Jewish state unless it embodies an ethos of love and justice..."

:applause:

Thanks for the post. :hi:

[TahitiNut]

27. Ubetcha. I find Tikkun more in keeping with Jewish values than much I read here.

I've lived all my life with close Jewish friends - attended Temple, been the gentile at Passover Seder, stood up in weddings, done "Shabbas goy" favors, etc. So much of what I read here is hateful and antithetical to the values I've learned that it's hard to believe the labels folks use to describe themselves.

[Swamp Rat]

31. Yes indeed

I am often disappointed by aggressive posts here, but relieved whenever I am with my friends observing Shabbat.

[lonestarnot]

40. Sounds like an excellent place to start. But how do people put aside all of the killing, those that

have already been killed, and those that will be killed? Not so easy when it's your own family.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. Tikkun is a great organization.

:thumbsup:

[TahitiNut]

30. In the very concept of "Tikkun olam" I find the values of the kind of liberalism I espouse.

While I eschew the ritualistic (even acknowledging the "mindfulness" purpose), the quality of the thought is undeniable for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam

[Raksha]

39. Same here...the concept of Tikkun Olam has always meant a lot to me.

My liberalism is also spiritually based, and given my background could not have come from anything but Judaism.

[Raksha]

35. Rabbi Lerner is one of the most consistent Jewish progressive voices for peace,

but not the only one. There is also Rabbi Arthur Waskow's Shalom Center. I'm not sure why these are two separate organizations...it could be that Rabbi Lerner's organization is officially affiliated with the Reform movement and Rabbi Waskow's with Conservative Judaism. I could be wrong about that, because neither one makes a big show of denominational affiliation.

There is also Peace Now both here and in Israel. And then there's J Street PAC--a fairly new political action committee that was formed as a progressive alternative to AIPAC. As a matter of fact, there are getting to be more and more Jewish voices speaking out against Israeli agression and brutality--and these are people who totally and unequivocally support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.

This is something that's VERY important for non-Jewish progressives to understand. I'm probably going to get flamed for saying this, but the often-repeated cliche (which I've seen more than once on DU), "I'm not anti-Semitic but I'm anti-Zionist" is meaningless to Jews--regardless of how progressive they are otherwise and regardless of how sickened they are personally by Israeli violence.

To claim that "I'm not anti-Semitic but I'm anti-Zionist" is to say you think the Jewish state has no legitimacy and never had any. It is to say that every other people on earth has the right to self-determination EXCEPT the Jewish people. WHY??? In other words, it's a contradiction in terms.

And so the most effective voices against Israeli violence are Jewish voices, precisely because their Zionist credentials are not in question. But at the same time, Jews are more viciously attacked by the more hawkish neocon Jews than anyone else when they do speak out. They get called traitors and "self-hating Jews," a really odious phrase with no other purpose but to shame the speaker into silence. And so for too long those of us you could almost call the silent majority were muted, cowed and in some cases silenced by the more strident belligerent types, who are still (according to the corporate media anywaya) presumed to speak for "the Jewish community" as a whole.

[Usrename]

49. I'm not sure you are thinking this through properly.

I think some people are just opposed to ANY religious state, and that shouldn't be all that surprising since it is antithetical to Americanism and most people here are raised to believe in Americanism.

Separation of church and state is a concept that is at odds with a Jewish state, isn't it? That's a very simple view, and it has nothing to do with anti-Semites as far as I can tell. It seems like one simply has to make a choice to believe in one or the other. Anti-Zionist and anti-Semite don't seem to be interchangeable, and I don't see why this distinction isn't obvious.

There's also the whole issue of apartheid, and the attempts to create a new sub-species of people that are not human, and therefore not entitled to any human rights. I'm not sure how much of this is Israel's fault, or how much is the United States fault, but there does seem to be a huge amount of effort that is pushing us all in that direction (in both countries) lately.

I wonder if there would be so much conflict if Palestinians, or even Arab Israelis, were treated equally.

Maybe Israel is the tail wagging the dog here, or the US could have the ring through the nose of Israel, forcing them along a certain path, I don't know, but the results should be clear to everyone. We (both countries) are attempting to create a new class of hominids, a class that has no voice, no rights. With the Israelis it's the Palestinians, with the US it's anyone they want to call a terrorist.

I think a progressive has to be a voice against apartheid, whether or not you love or hate Israel or the US. I think that the majority of folks in both countries oppose this behavior, or at least I hope that's the case.

[Mosby]

60. Other countries besides Israel have official state religions

and they all, including Israel, somehow manage to maintain a separation of church and state in their legislative, judicial and executive functions.

There is no apartheid in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are not part of the country.

[Usrename]

62. That's some serious denial you got going there.

I don't understand why anyone would try and dispute basic facts. Which facts do you think are not true?

Israel's West Bank system like apartheid: rights group

>snip

The group's report, published ahead of Wednesday's 60th anniversary of the signing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, notes that the 2.3 million Palestinians in the West Bank outside annexed Arab east Jerusalem are subject to military law and administration.

By contrast, the 250,000 settlers live under Israeli civilian law.

While the settlers use a modern and developed road system restricted to Israeli cars, the Palestinians are forced to use "winding and dangerous roads," the report said.

In addition, Israel imposes strict restrictions on construction in Palestinian towns and villages and does not develop basic infrastructure there.

more>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081207/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictpalestinianrights

UN envoy hits Israel 'apartheid'

>snip

"House demolitions in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are carried out in a manner that discriminates against Palestinians.

"Throughout the West Bank, and particularly in Hebron, settlers are given preferential treatment over Palestinians in terms of movement (major roads are reserved exclusively for settlers), building rights and army protection and laws governing family re-unification".

>more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6390755.stm

Text

What specifically do you think Yahoo and the BBC are getting wrong in these two different articles with completely different sources?

They are not even allowed to drive on the same freaking roads. Are you seriously claiming that this is NOT apartheid?


And then there is the religious test. What are you talking about? What planet are you on? Really.

How does Israel have a separation of church and state when so much of their law is based on religion? Are you serious? Are you at all familiar with their immigration laws, for example? Separation of church and state? Are you joking? I hope you are not serious about this.

[Mosby]

64. You need to educate yourself

Travel restrictions occur in the disputed territories, NOT Israel. In case you are not aware, apartheid is generally based on racial/ethnic segregation - in Israel there is no institutionalized discrimination or segregation based on ethnicity or race.

Israeli law is secular:

POLITICAL STRUCTURE

Israel is a parliamentary democracy which consists of three branches: the legislature
(the Knesset); the executive (the government); and the judiciary (the court system).
It is based on the principle of separation of powers, with checks and balances built
into the system.

The government is subject to the confidence of the Knesset, and the absolute
independence of the judiciary is guaranteed by law.

The president is the head of state; the office symbolizes the unity of the state and
carries high prestige and moral force, above and beyond party politics.

JUDICIARY: THE COURT SYSTEM

The judiciary is entirely independent. Judges are appointed by the president upon
recommendation of a special nine-person committee composed of three Supreme Court
justices, two members of the Israeli Bar and four public figures (i.e. government
ministers, Knesset members). Judges receive appointments for life, with retirement at
age 70.

Although legislative competence is wholly within the Knesset, the Supreme Court can
and does call attention to the desirability of legislative changes; sitting as the
High Court of Justice, it has the authority to determine whether a law properly
conforms with the Basic Laws of the state.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/int19.htm

[Name removed]

67. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chulanowa]

78. If the Palestinian territories aren't part of Israel...

Then why does Israel collect taxes from them? Why does Israel have a say in the political operation of these places?

[Mosby]

84. They collect taxes on the behalf of the PA

and those revenues are turned over to the PA. I imagine that given all the imports and exports in the region it is more efficient to centralize the process.

Israel has no say in Palestinian politics or elections.

[Chulanowa]

85. I see

And how do we know where Israel stops and Palestinian territory begins? Israel has no set borders with Palestinian territory. Do we have to guess, or is there some calender-based system? "it's tuesday, second week of march, so the border is here"?

[Mosby]

59. Rabbi Lerner has written about the same problems

the OP identified.

Authoritarianism and Anti-Semitism in the Anti-War Movement?

http://web.archive.org/web/20041019075845/http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0305/article/030512a.html


The Socialism of Fools: Anti-Semitism on the Left

http://www.amazon.com/Socialism-Fools-Anti-Semitism-Left/dp/0935933050

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hydra]

4. How about this

I'll view Israel as a legitimate member of the international community when they stop killing large numbers of civilians in the hunt for "terrorists."

Oh, wait...we do that too. So do most other major nations.

I guess seen from that perspective, we're all being too hard on the repressed people with the secret nuclear arsenal. Maybe I should just start talking about how it's worth all of the suffering an death our countries cause in the name of global expansion and quit talking about how we're supposed to be civilized and all that.

Maybe drinking the kool-aid would make me a happier person. I could even go to church and listen to them talk about how all the other people are going to hell.

[Betsy Ross]

6. K&R

I avoid Israel/Palestine posts.

[annm4peace]

7. Check out Jewish Voices for Peace

Just because you think the Israel goverment is wrong for bombing civilians doesn't mean you hate Israel. Many people are just against the madness of the military. the bombing of civilians while trying to get the "bad guys" just creates more violence and hate and terrorist acts.

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. Jewish Voices for Peace

is a good start;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Voice_for_Peace

[StudsT]

8. I think it is a legitimate anger expressed at the state of Israel and not it's people

i think it is wrong to judge all of the 'left' as being anti-semites (of course that is nonsense) just as it is wrong to judge all jews or americans (or any other group of people e.g. palestinians) by the actions of their governments.

being outraged at state actors who commit mass atrocities is only normal... and should be encouraged.

StudsT

[Sebastian Doyle]

10. Guess it depends on what you mean by "supporting Israel"

There's three entities present here. You have a country called Israel. You have the Jewish people. And then there's the insane policies of the Likud right wing. It's possible to support the first two and despise the third. Actually, that's the only sane way to look at it.

I don't claim to know any easy answers to the Middle East clusterfuck, but what they're doing to Gaza will solve nothing. Just as what they did to Lebanon a few years back.

I hope the Israeli people figure out that the fringe right wing in their country is destroying them just as much as the right wing in the US is destroying us. It's my belief that the Rabin assassination was Israel's version of the JFK assassination here, done for similar reasons, and the impact on the country has been pretty much the same - it neutered any real opposition to the fascist right wing. :evilfrown:

[thewiseguy]

11. I am glad you recognize that Palestinians are human beings!

I was not aware that such recognition was needed when it came to Palestinians.

[jrockford]

74. Apparently it is. It's quite contradictory to claim to be a "progressive" and supporter of

such an apartheid state. I mean, please, how can you be a progressive, yet in good conscience "support" a state that legalised "soft torture", has numerous human rights violations, etc etc.

And then your concern is the supposed antisemitism...

[elleng]

12. GoesTo, I try to not pay attention

to ANYONE, on ANY subject, who uses language like that. That's how 'progressive' I am, fwiw.

[StudsT]

13. Outrage in Gaza: No More Apologies by Rabbi Brant Rosen

The news today out of Israel and Gaza makes me just sick to my stomach.

I know, I can already hear the responses: every nation has a responsibility to ensure the safety of its citizens. If the Qassams stopped, Israel wouldn’t be forced to take military action. Hamas also bears responsibility for this tragic situation…

I could answer each and every one of these claims in turn, but I’m ready to stop this perverse game of rhetorical ping-pong. I don’t buy the rationalizations any more. I’m so tired of the apologetics. How on earth will squeezing the life out of Gaza, not to mention bombing the living hell out of it, ensure the safety of Israeli citizens?

We good liberal Jews are ready to protest oppression and human-rights abuse anywhere in the world, but are all too willing to give Israel a pass. It’s a fascinating double-standard, and one I understand all too well. I understand it because I’ve been just as responsible as anyone else for perpetrating it.

So no more rationalizations. What Israel has been doing to the people of Gaza is an outrage. It has has brought neither safety nor security to the people of Israel and it has wrought nothing but misery and tragedy upon the people of Gaza.

There, I’ve said it. Now what do I do?

source...
http://rabbibrant.com/2008/12/28/outrage-in-gaza-no-more-apologies

StudsT

[roody]

14. It is hard to imagine a progressive confusing

Israel with Jews. Israel is a good example of why the separation of church and state is a good idea.

[oberliner]

15. Realize that you are in good company

Barack Obama:

Our job is to do more than lay out another road map; our job is
to rebuild the road to real peace and lasting security throughout the
region. That effort begins with a clear and strong commitment to the security of
Israel: our strongest ally in the region and its only established
democracy. That will always be my starting point.

[Prepostericity]

34. that was a mistake

Perhaps in a way Obama gave Israel the go ahead.

April Glaspie once told Saddam Hussein that the US had no opinion on any border dispute. We know what happened with that one.

[tomp]

46. "...our strongest ally in the region..."

to what purpose? answer: imperialist domination.

[scarletwoman]

16. If you want to defend Israel, do so. It's the accepted p.o.v. Why worry?

"Tough it out"? Are you kidding? If you support Israel you get an automatic free ride. You're in the catbird seat. Chirp away.

sw

[Truth2Tell]

18. Real support for Israel means being willing

to criticize wrongheaded Israeli decisions - like real support for America means speaking out when our leaders make bad decisions about war and peace.

Please consider that most progressive critics of Israel are not "anti-Israel" and certainly not anti-Jew. Many of us see the strategic decisions of Israel as self destructive and counterproductive, much like American actions actions in Iraq have been. In fact, much of the aggressive Israeli response to longstanding external threats has been based on the same very faulty logic and assumptions as the neocon response to 9-11.

Pro-peace Israeli advocacy groups - like J Street and others - are just as "pro-Israel" as the pro-war Likudniks. They (and we progressives who support them) simply advocate for a more accommodating, more restrained, more humane, and - we believe - smarter strategy. As Israel's prime sponsor America suffers the consequences of their bad decisions in many ways.

BTW - I haven't seen anyone on this board say "I have had enough of the Jews" or "Jews are the new Nazis." If they did so they wouldn't last long. It sounds like a straw man to me and I challenge you to link to any such post whatsoever.

[oberliner]

20. One subject heading was: "I am so sick of the Jews and Palestine's I could Puke"

Thankfully that was deleted very quickly.

You haven't seen any Nazi comparisons made on any posts?

If you email the moderators and ask them if there have deleted any such posts I am certain that they will be able to confirm.

[Usrename]

52. Yep, I had one deleted earlier today.

I was responding to someone calling another poster a Nazi, and all I said was that according to history the Nazis were the oppressors.

[cali]

97. Exellent post

but unfortunately, over the years there's been a shitload of out and out anti-semitism here- most notably during the Lebanon attack and when Ahmadinejad spoke at the U.N. a year or two ago. It's actually much better this time around, largely I suspect, because so many were tombstoned. And sorry, it's impossible to link to deleted posts.

[bajamary]

19. Let's progressively pray for peace

The hawks have been in charge in Israel for way too long, and the seeds of military might are again showing their full fury right now. There are many Israel citizens are moderates and progressive whose voices are often not heard both inside and outside of that troubled region.

Bullies, no matter where they live, do not want peace.

I pray that the peace that was created in Northern Ireland (yes it's an ever-so-fragile peace - but it's peace) might be duplicated with the Jewish and Muslims in that region.

A footnote: When the storied PBS program "Sesame Street" was first broadcast in Israel is wasn't well received. After CHildren's Television Workshop did some more research and consultation with Israeli educators, they made Sesame Street significantly more aggressive and, voila - it was a huge hit.

[gravity]

21. I think the strong anti-Israel sentiment is a minority

Progressives just want peace in the area using diplomacy instead of force.

I guess the right/left dynamics of the issue make it a blame game on whose side is at fault, which just destroys the conversation.

[TahitiNut]

22. "The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions" is a useful site, too

http://www.icahd.org/eng/

ISRAEL: END THE ATTACKS ON GAZA IMMEDIATELY!
ICAHD
Sunday, December 28, 2008

Let’s be crystal clear. Israel’s massive attacks on Gaza today have one overarching goal: conflict management. How to end rocket attacks on Israel from a besieged and starving Gaza without ending the impetus for those attacks, 41 years of increasingly oppressive Israeli Occupation without a hint that a sovereign and viable Palestinian state will ever emerge.

Indeed, the Occupation, in which Israel controls Gaza under a violent siege which violates fundamental human rights and international law, is not even mentioned in Israel’s PR campaign. Speaking to the international community, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni insists that no country would tolerate its citizens being attacked, a seemingly reasonable statement were it not for Israeli sanctions on Gaza supported by the US and Europe – sanctions that preceded the rocket fire on Israel – or the fact of Israeli Occupation in general. Solely focusing on the rocket attacks conceals the political policy that led to them: “The Hamas government in Gaza must be toppled,” Livni has said repeatedly. “The means to do this must be military, economic and diplomatic.”

The responsibility for the suffering both in Israel and Gaza rests squarely with successive Israeli governments, Labor, Likud and Kadima alike. Had there been a genuine political process (remember, the closure of Gaza began in 1989), Israelis and Palestinians could have been living together in peace and prosperity already for 20 years. After all, already in 1988 the PLO accepted the two-state solution in which a Palestinian state would arise on only 22% of historic Palestine, alongside the state of Israel on the other 78%. A truly generous offer.

In Israel, however, the effort is to hide its preference for control over peace. Framing its attacks as a response to rockets from Gaza, exploiting an immediate trigger to effectively conceal deeper political intentions and policies, does that. It also conceals Israeli violations of the cease-fire. The fact that the rocket attacks could have been avoided altogether through a genuine political process means that the people of southern Israel are being held hostage by their government as well. Their suffering, and the suffering of the people of Gaza and the rest of the Occupied Territories, must be placed squarely at the feet of the Israeli government.

Israel cannot expect security for its people and political normalcy as long as it occupies Palestinian lands and continues its attempt to impose its permanent rule over the Palestinians by military force. We call on the Israeli government to end its aggression immediately and enter into genuine political negotiations with a united Palestinian leadership. We call on the international community to end its sanctions on Gaza immediately in accordance with international law, initiate an effective political process to end the Israeli Occupation and bring about a just peace – which reflects the will of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples.

[Raksha]

36. Thank you for posting the ICAHD statement.

That's the most articulate assessment of the current situation I've seen yet--and I've read a lot of them over the past few days.

[TahitiNut]

41. It's the best I've seen, too.

I'm very impressed with the quality of BOTH thought AND conscience I've found on NSP/Tikkun, ICAHD, and other sites belonging to organizations dedicated to finding a REAL solution to the I/P abomination. I find I'm as opposed to Likud/Kadima as I am to the GOP ... and for many of the same reasons. Profiteering (including power) from death and suffering seems to know no ethnic/cultural boundaries.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. I am extremely critical of the Israeli government

but I don't think that I fit into any of your categories, and I'm not sure that all that many critics on the left actually do. I don't "dislike" or "hate" Israel. I don't conflate the state of Israel with "the Jews".

I just think that there are a lot of people who can't hear any criticism of Israel without taking it personally, and I don't know why that is. I'm an American, and I don't take intense criticism of my own country personally.

I don't know if there is any basis for constructive discourse, as long as so many people are operating on such knee jerk reactions, and are not willing to look beyond simplistic stereotypes.

Anyway, good luck.

[riverwalker]

25. evolve, maybe?

I "support" America too, but I sure as hell will protest when we are wrong.

[JCMach1]

28. 100% reject the government of Israel

and their Right-wing tactics...

[rockymountaindem]

29. Realize this site isn't indicative of any large portion of the population

In the general public, most people I've met, even those who are vehemently opposed to Israeli military action, manage to discuss the topic with a modicum of civility which seems to be impossible for some (not all) people here to muster.

As useful as this site is to keep up with things that are happening in US politics, particularly in state and local races, a lot of the opinions posted here are far out of the mainstream (even in the Democratic Party) and you should keep that in mind.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

32. A change of government in Israel is needed as a start

[Misskittycat]

33. Good new organization called J Street (jstreet.org); a counterpoint to AIPAC.

I joined several months ago.

[lonestarnot]

38. Did you happen to catch the pic of the Israeli left protestor who was being beaten by the police in

Israel yesterday? I know exactly how you feel. :hug:

[LeftishBrit]

42. Interesting post.

I have noticed this too. Specifically, there is not sufficient distinction made between criticism of Israel for its own actions, and blaming it for the actions of other countries and attributing excessive control to it.

I am a progressive, or as we'd put it in my country, a left-winger; indeed a socialist. My own views are about 50-50 (critical of both sides, and just wanting PEACE) on Israeli-Palestinian issues as such. But about 110% pro-Israel when it coms to Israel's being blamed for American or other world actions. It's not just Israel; I am the same if any country gets scapegoated for everyone else's actions, and gets excessive power attributed to it (I use the term 'bogeynation'). But on DU, Israel does fufil the role of 'bogeynation' a little bit too often. And I have seen extreme remarks made about it - that it is the most dangerous country in the world; that its demise would be a good thing; that it is America's 'master'; that American neocons are disloyal citizens with a primary 'allegiance' to Israel; the truly vile accusation that Israel got America into the war in Iraq; etc.

I think that some of this comes from alliances against the war between progressive groups, and those that oppose the war for non-progressive reasons. The latter include xenophobic isolationists: Ron Paul, Pat Buchanan, antiwar.com: the descendants of the America-Firsters of WW2. They are not at very many degrees of separation from EXTREME right groups (in Britain, the BNP opposes the war on similar grounds; so I understand does David Duke). A few right-wing anti-war people probably do join DU; there are a larger number of genuinely progressive people who get somewhat influenced by the non-progressives with whom they're in alliance.

There is also the phenomenon of 'mirror-image-ism': taking the RW idea of 'good guys' and 'bad guys' but reversing it so that America and its allies, including Britain and Israel, are an 'axis of evil'. In fact, America and Britain and Israel do deserve a lot of criticism, but they'e not an 'axis of evil'.

I find Raksha's posts very interesting, as I have somewhat similar views, but from a totally secular perspective.

Organizations that may interest those with am interest in Middle East peace include:

www.allmep.org

www.onevoicemovement.org

www.bsst.org.uk

[Behind the Aegis]

43. A couple of things...

...not all "progressives" are progressive.
...not all "progressives" are free from bigotry.
...not all who criticize Israel are anti-Israel and/or anti-Semites, though some are just that.
...not all "pro-Israel" people are really pro-Israel, some are simply anti-Palestinian.
...not all posters here even have the foggiest idea about the situation and "go along to get along."
...not all of the posters here are capable of intelligent understanding and drink from the poison "kool-aid" of hate and bigotry against Israel.
...not all posters here even care, they are just out to fight with pro-Israeli folks.
...keep strong.

[lamp_shade]

44. kick and recommend.

[timtom]

45. Here is one Israeli's opinion:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

Read it and know that this is a complex issue.

[oberliner]

47. That person is not an Israeli nt

[timtom]

55. Yes he is. Why would lie about something like that?

Just kidding. After all my blather here and there about critical thinking and carefully scanning text...
I get caught with my discernment panties down around my ankles.

I apologize for lack of due diligence.

And thank you for correcting me.

Shalom.
Salaam.
Pax.

[oberliner]

56. No problem

Peace to you as well.

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. Fortunately, the anti-Israel left has little power in this country and in the Democratic Party

They can scream and whine all they want, but in the end the US will still support Israel regardless of which party is in power.

[TexasObserver]

50. Yes, it's disturbing, probably because of the disproportionate response.

On the one hand, we see the provocations by HAMAS and others.

On the other hand, if Israel's response were more proportionate, more measure, less overreactive and more directed, that would be better.

It's the same unhappy situation it's been for the forty years I've been paying attention to the attacks by one side, and the responses from the other.

Hardliners on both sides over there are the problem, and the lack of US resolve to control our satellite state compounds it.

[Chulanowa]

89. Hamas is doing what any other government in its position would do

The people of Gaza elected Hamas, and are depending on their government to represent and defend them. When Israel blockades the borders and coasts all while engaging in fairly regular strikes, what should Hamas do? Israel and the US want Hamas to step down, but that would, of course, be completely against the wishes of the people who elected them. I'd like to think that neither the US or Israeli government would step down to the demands of a foreign power, wouldn't you? Israel further refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of Hamas' government, making diplomatic measures nearly impossible.

So what's Hamas going to do?

Israel is also doing what any other government in its position would do. When Hamas starts launching rockets to defend its people, Israel is of course obligated to retaliate to protect its own people. A lot of people like to point out how "restrained" the Israeli military is, which I generally take to mean "well, they don't use their nukes"... But really, can't blame them too much for charging in and kicking ass.

The problem is... You would figure that after seventy years of the same shit, both sides would start notice that htey're getting nowhere with these methods

[Odin2005]

51. A pox on both their houses

I am disgusted the the actions on both sides. NEITHER side is willing to stop it's offensive behavior and compromise. if Israel tries to compromise the settlers and Israel's Religious Right (which are often the same thing) whine and moan. if The Palestinians try to compromise the terrorists that want Israel wiped of the face of the earth moan and bitch. It's like you just can't fucking win.

[ShortnFiery]

54. The only solution is an secular, objective and political solution - but it will take The World ...

Community backing it up. It would take moral courage to do the right thing VICE the more financially benefiting act.

I hope and pray that we (the USA) can be "a leader" and "fair intermediary" in negotiating a LONG lasting Israeli-Palestinian Peace.

[Malikshah]

53. Keep it civil? How about starting with the OP. Anti Israel is not anti-semitic.

One can equivocate all day long, but the OP jumps from one to the other is blind quotes and generalizations.

This is standard "duck and cover" obfuscation that is anything but progressive. It is is crying wolf.

No one country, people, nation has a monopoloy on victimihood or morality.

The way to have a productive discussion is to be consistent:
No false equivalency allowed.
Get the facts correct; not what the media parrots, but the actual facts of the situation.
Stay on the topic and don't add anything or change the subject.
Don't ask hyperbolic questions (e.g., So, you think it's OK to support terrorists?)
Own your shit. Don't own anyone elses.

For now, the OP has created a very slanted playing field, rife with generalizations and crocodile tears calls for civility.

Not a good start.

Hopefully someone will try again.

[Mosby]

61. Research indicates that anti-Israel sentiment

tends to go hand in hand with anti-semitism:

Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Anti-Semitism in Europe

http://www.h-net.org/~antis/papers/jcr_antisemitism.pdf


Many people including Rabbi Lerner, have written about the issue of leftist anti-semitism.

Authoritarianism and Anti-Semitism in the Anti-War Movement?

http://web.archive.org/web/20041019075845/http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0305/article/030512a.html

The Socialism of Fools: Anti-Semitism on the Left

http://www.amazon.com/Socialism-Fools-Anti-Semitism-Left/dp/0935933050

[ChairmanAgnostic]

80. so, if we criticize Israel's terrorist attack on Gaza, we are anti-Semitic?

Yet, when Israelis in Israel do the same thing, that's ok?

Gotcha.

I can see the difference.

NOT.

[Malikshah]

94. On the DU Board.

Victimization has run rampant. Not good enough for this board.

My statment stands.

Consistency in the belief that all humans have a right to security and are valued is not a path to anti-semitism.

[Iggo]

57. Progress.

(The verb, not the noun.)

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blindpig]

70. Startling that anyone could not percieve the obvious. n/t

[Mosby]

92. What's obvious

is that a lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of Jewish self-determination.

Jews have been living in what is modern day Israel and the Levant for thousands of years, despite repeated massacres by the Arabs. They are as indigenous as the Palestinians.

With the passage of UN res 181 both sides had an opportunity to form a nation, but only the Jews took on the challenge.

[blindpig]

96. yeah, well what about this:

Hard to have a nation when your land is being stolen wholesale.

What part of those maps can you not understand? Ethnic cleansing, I'd call it.

[Mosby]

99. Your map is completely inaccurate

The last frame in particular is showing PA areas of control based on the Hebron agreement and oslo II. The West Bank is under PA authority and during past negotiations they have been given complete control over areas a and b. The idea was to hand over control of the west bank in steps, so Israel and the PA could develop mutual confidence and trust.

Map of Oslo II 1995:


Note that ALL the area inside the black line is Palestinian, the map is showing what entity is responsible for security.

[blindpig]

100. Yes, we see how well that's working out.

The Palestinians have no real control over the West Bank, Israel takes what land it wants, what water it wants, murders and imprisons who it wants, some responsibility. Your objection is bogus.

What those four maps represent is ethnic cleansing, plain and simple

[Mosby]

103. Ethnic cleansing?

II. Israel / Palestine: Arab / Jewish Population (1914-2005)


Total
Year Jews Arabs Total
1914 60,000 731,000 791,000 7.585%
1922 83,790 668,258 752,048 11.141%
1931 174,606 858,708 1,033,314 16.897%
1941 474,102 1,111,398 1,585,500 29.902%
1950 1,203,000 1,172,100 2,375,100 50.650%
1960 1,911,300 1,340,100 3,251,400 58.783%
1970 * 2,582,000 1,045,000 3,627,000 71.188%
1980 3,282,700 2,100,000 5,382,700 60.986%
1995 4,495,100 3,506,900 8,002,000 56.173%
2005 5,275,700 5,139,100 10,414,800 50.656%

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=636#chart1

The Palestinian population has grown from 1.1 mil in 1950 to 5.1 mil in 2005.

[blindpig]

104. So they didn't kill them...

they just herded them into ghettos. The high reproductive rate is indicative of the poverty they suffer, being deprived of the land and resources they have been deprived of, but I guess that's OK with you.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[TheKentuckian]

73. The Palestinians are mostly random Arabs acting as a living protest.

Further, Israel was attacked by nearly all its neighbors and kicked their asses back were they come from. They come by their land no less and probably more honestly than we come by our own.

You can go back and forth all you want but to circle Israel out as not having a right to exist and protect its citizens among a whole world of nations that took the lands they inhabited from someone else is ludicrous nonsense. We're going to protect our citizens, commerce, and property and we ganked and connived all of it and built it on slavery and abject slavery.
I don't like the hypocritical circling out of Israel when considering the tone and actions of their "oppressed", probably every nation in the west would be less restrained than even Israel's right wing has been. No nation in the world would put up with such attacks, especially over this length of time no matter what they were doing to egg it on from an objective point of view.

Eventually, most of the citizens are going to demand that something aggressive be done to make sure their kids are safe and people feel comfortable visiting their businesses. It doesn't take dehumanizing to say make them stop.

[OregonBlue]

75. So you're okay with Israel, who has a massive military supported and maintained by the West, to herd

people into ghetto's and treat them like dogs? Might makes right? You're so bent on protecting your citizens, what about theirs? It's okay for Israel to protect themselves but not okay for the Palestinians? They are not supposed to "demand that something aggressive be done to make sure their kids are safe and their people feel comfortable visiting their businesses"? You steal their land and decry them as evil because they want it back? Wow, just WOW!! Not a very progressive stance from where I sit.

What Zionists don't understand is that it is possible to be anti-Israeli aggression without being anti-Jew. This is not a religious war as far as I can tell. It's about land and wealth. They had it, you took it, they want it back. Plain and simple, leave religion out of it.

Stop trying to justify it. Israel is wealthy and strong, the Palestinians are poor and weak. Israel has herded the Palestinians into ghettos that they maintain by force and the Palestinians want out.

[Raineyb]

101. Then they didn't come to it honestly at all

Because our country sure as hell didn't either.

How do you breathe with your head stuck in the sand?

Regards

[ChairmanAgnostic]

81. very well put.

It is no surprise that Bush goes into hiding, Condi is on some speaking tour, and America turns the other cheek, leaving us powerless and without a voice just as the entire Middle East is ready to blow up.

Israel is taking advantage, because they know that 8 yrs of Bush will be replaced with a far more even handed and rational policy - and that means telling them to stop.

[OregonBlue]

86. Create extreme turmoil in the whole of the middle east in an attempt to hamstring this new

administration. They're tactics never change. This has been planned for a long time. If they could, they would draw Iran into it as well since that is their ultimate goal. Get the U.S. and the West to destroy their enemies for them.

They created the mess, they need to find a resolution or make peace.

[LWolf]

66. I'm a leftist who is neither a

supporter nor the enemy of Israel. It's possible.

I'm neutral on Israel. I see them the same way I see every other nation in the middle east. They are neither my ally, nor my enemy.

From that position of neutrality, I've noticed that expressions of support for Palestine, or criticism of Israel, are automatically assumed to be expressions of anti-semitism by some. Kind of like the way any criticism of Obama on issues was attacked as "racism" during the election.

I'm sure sometimes it is. Still, criticism of Israel is not automatically anti-semitism.

I don't approve of anyone over there bombing anyone.

And I don't approve of the U.S. choosing sides and manipulating power in the disputes of others. I'd rather work through the U.N..

[Ron Green]

68. It's incumbent upon the stronger party to take the lead toward peace.

Just as US policy was wrong after 9/11 in throwing down the gauntlet rather than stepping up diplomacy, so is Israel wrong in its single-minded retaliation and escalation of violence.

The stronger adversary can and must take the risk of stepping back in the face of aggression, because the stronger party has more options. The weaker party (in this case, the Palestinians as avenged by Hamas) has far fewer options, and therefore does not carry the burden of leadership.

[Raineyb]

102. Wise words indeed.

It is exactly why I hold Israel responsible. The country with the power has to be held to account. Plain and simple.

Regards

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. How does one "support" a country?

A piece of real estate? I've never been able to fathom the concept of "loving" a country.

An idea, a philosophy, a religion, perhaps. But a country?

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." Thomas Paine

"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum." Thomas Paine

[Iggo]

90. Wow. And ouch.

Me ----> :fistbump: <----Thomas Paine

[chrisa]

72. It's not that people hate Israel, imo...

It's just that we're tired of this blatent media bias / American bias for Israel, while pretending that the suffering of the Palestinian people doesn't exist. It's like we have this mentality that there's a good side, and a bad side. The good side can do no wrong, and the bad side is pure evil. This administration has pushed this crap for 8 years.

[Chulanowa]

76. I've never seen the antisemitism you claim

But I have seen that diehard supporters of Israel see all criticism of Israeli policy and action as bigotry towards all Jews. I tend to just accept that those supporters are idiots who are unable to back their own positions with anything, and I leave them to chase their own tails :)

I guess it depends on what you mean by "support Israel".Support for Israel is a lot like criticism of israel. It ranges from the reasoned and learned arguments, on down to "Fuck the towelheads!" attitudes.

[tammywammy]

79. You haven't seen it b/c it gets deleted

But there was a long time poster on here that posted "fuck the Jews." It was deleted and he was banned.

[Chulanowa]

82. It it's deleted and posters banned, then I'm not going to regard it as a problem

'Cause it seems to me that would indicate that it's not a widely-supported attitude. Of course... After all these claims based on the mysterious "deleted thread" from the primaries, and now with the Warren thing, I'm a little wary of such claims - "You have to acknowledge my claims are true because I say the post was deleted and it's only by pure luck I saw it and you didn't!" Especially since they're always used to tar the entire DU / progressive community (which is silly, if those posts were deleted and their posters banned...)

[anonymous171]

77. I just want America to withdraw support for Israel, regardless of its behavior.

I don't really care what Israel or Hamas is doing to eachother, as long as America is not involved I am cool with it.

[Chulanowa]

83. Well, now...

WHile I agree that unconditional support is one of our dumbest policy positions, I beleive the US should offer some level of support for all nations that aren't outright hostile to us. Part of the whole "global community" thing

[OregonBlue]

88. Seems to me the Israeli's created this problem and they would love to draw everyone else into it.

They would love nothing better than to draw in Iran and Syria as well and expect the U.S. to support them. I agree that we should not be taking anyone's side in this conflict. Let the parties work it out through diplomacy. War is a lose/lose no matter who is doing the fighting. Why is it that so many progressives who condemn our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, think we should support Israel in their war?

We should only support a diplomatic solution. Nothing else.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

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[Political Tiger]

91. Very good post!

I pretty much agree with everything you say. I usually try to stay out of these Israel/Palestine fights because so much emotion is involved, and unfortunately a lot of anti-Semitism enters the mix, which makes me rather uncomfortable.

[karynnj]

93. Here's a progressive Jewish group

http://www.btvshalom.org/

Here is part of their statement on the current situation (there are also action alerts to get Obama and/or Bush to call for a ceasefire.

"Who among us has not watched in alarm and anguish as the crisis has unfolded in Gaza and southern Israel over the past two days? Close to 300 Palestinians have died and hundreds more are wounded -- both Hamas militants and ordinary citizens. More than 120 rockets have been launched into Israel, with one man killed.

Though some Israeli action is an understandable response to continued rocket fire from Hamas, and the idea of contained surgical strikes may be compelling, these airstrikes represent a huge escalation of the conflict -- a crisis that may end in a wider war in which many more Palestinians and Israelis die in the weeks to come.

The now familiar sequence of escalating mutual hostility, invasion, and withdrawal without security arrangements has never worked -- in Lebanon, the West Bank, or in Gaza itself. The United States and the entire world community must intercede to help reestablish a ceasefire, put an end to rocket attacks on Israel, and facilitate the delivery of humanitarian aid to Gaza.

Brit Tzedek calls on President Bush to initiate an international effort aimed at negotiating an immediate ceasefire. Such a ceasefire must halt all attacks from both sides and allow humanitarian assistance into Gaza.

Further, we call on President-elect Obama to make clear that he will, as President, urgently assert US leadership to achieve a comprehensive diplomatic resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian and Arab-Israeli conflicts. "

http://ga3.org/btvshalom/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=34933577

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

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[cali]

98. sigh. I support peace. I support two independent nations

I do not believe that Israel should be dismantled or that it should become one state. I condemn many Israeli actions including the bombing and blockade of Gaza. I do not support the Israeli government.

I support an independent and viable Palestine. I do not support Hamas. I do not support the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians. I do not support the hateful rhetoric from either side.

If that makes me an Israel apologist, than that's just fine with me.