I can't help but feel the end of the nation is at hand

[ThomWV]

If there is no investigation of laws so obviously broken that best-selling books have been written on the subject then we are no long a nation subject to the rule of law and if we are not that we are nothing at all. The incoming team hasn't given any sort of assurance they intend to pursue criminals in the Bush Administration. These are not crimes in some long forgotten past, these are in some cases continuing right up until this very moment. It is inexcusable that they be excused.

[Double T]

1. bushco is doing everything possible to erase their tracks.........

and rewrite their actual history and replace it with a fraud. Disdain by 3/4 of the American people and the rest of the world might begin to create justice.

[babylonsister]

2. Did I miss something? They've been excused?

Obama hasn't even taken office yet. I don't know what will happen, but I'm hoping it's not the end of the nation.

[ixion]

3. agreed. If we can't restore the Rule of Law

then we're pretty much screwed.

Of course, we've been on this path for decades, so the odds of our actually doing so are slim to none, at least in the near future.

A great place to start would be fully restoring our civil rights, which have been decimated by by so-called 'war' on drugs and terror.

[blues90]

4. They are looking forward in their words

Into the future whatever that is. All this proves is there are laws for the citizen but not for any politician.

The new admin are just as much cowards and liars and useless as the out going admin.

If they allow crimes un-punished they are as guilty as if they did the crimes themselves.


What was sold was hype and hope and change. What did this last campaign cost about 100 million , there is a clue what we have to look forward too.

[bdamomma]

42. looking forward? after they took us into an invasion and killed

many of our American brothers and sisters and killed civilians in a country where we had no business going into. These SOB's need their just dues, they should not be let off the hook. No way should they be let off.

[peacetalksforall]

5. I'm beginning to think this way: If all focus is placed on Congress

to start impeachment, we're going to get sidelined. They are only good for hearings and only Waxman and Conyers and a few Democrats are instrumental in the hearings, not the DLC. They are not instrumental in anything except going right of center and giving the Republicans pecks on the cheek.

Our entire health as a nation is in the hands of lawyers and their clients. This administration needs to be hit with lawsuits from every entity of victims.

My biggest fear is that we are going to start hearing words telling us that we should forgive and move on. How is that justice, if it does happen? Is forgiveness and moving on the NEW Democratic Party Constitution?

Did Republicans EVER forgive and move on after Clinton apologized, was impeached, and disbarred?

Did Republicans forgive themselves for all the death and destruction, lies, thefts, torture, and disregard for citizens. Nah, it's ultra transparent. There is more accusations, lies, thefts to come.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Unfortunately, those who should prosecute were abetting the criminals in their crimes.

One only need look at the number of times that the appropriations for the war(s) were passed overwhelming margins in both houses of congress.

If they were to prosecute the crimes of BushCo they would have to indict themselves.

Fat chance.

[elfin]

7. The "nation" is an idea, which

cannot easily be destroyed by Bushco, no matter how hard they tried.

This "idea" created by our founders and enhanced periodically by successive progressive movements remains the last best chance for human governance, despite acts of wannabe despots like Bush, Cheney and their cohorts.

Perhaps there will not be time or energy in the near future to punish them in my lifetime (I am a geezer). . But the tides of history will do what is just.

Oh, how I wish all of them could reap the poison they have sowed while they are still alive to appreciate an understanding of their treason.

How I wish they experience the deprivation of the common populace to appreciate what they have wrought.

How I wish they need to expend personal fortunes defending themselves in various courts.

Vengeance is not Obama's style -- but enough fact based polemics will be published to make sure the "legacies" do not take root.

[gulliver]

23. There is not much difference between idea and opinion.

Bush proved that any idea can simply be warped into whatever you want it to mean. Then judging whether it is straight or warped is turned into a matter of popular opinion by the media. The people have lost respect for seriousness and critical thinking. Bush didn't teach them that. He resulted from it. We are in for a wild ride, IMO.

[natrat]

8. when some form of organized crime firmly controls both parties it's over

[L0oniX]

18. Uhm ...that would be the military industrial corporations and those that hold stock

in those corporations.

[DutchLiberal]

9. Well, they never investigated Nixon, Reagan, Bush I or Clinton...

So why it the country only finished *now*?

[Jim Sagle]

22. Never investigated Clinton? What fuckin' planet are you from?

They investigated him 24x7 almost the whole time he was in office. And all they found was a girlfriend.

[Zhade]

35. Yeah, but not for the actual crimes -- like helping the first bush by covering up BCCI.

NT!

[Jim Sagle]

47. That was probably not literally a crime, because it could be justified as bipartisan blah blah blah.

To the extent that Clinton was a Democrat, it was a very bad blunder.

But it's of a piece with American political history over the last several decades: Republicans commit treason, Democrats cover it up.

Every damn time.

[DutchLiberal]

43. They didn't investigate him over the 'extraordinary rendition program'...

...which is a euphemism for abducting suspects to Middle Eastern countries where they are tortured in secret CIA prisons. Also, they didn't investigate him for the weekly bombings of Iraq, causing roughly 500.000 innocent lives, as estimated by the United Nations.

Why do you think the Democrats don't want to investigate Bush? Because they perpetrated the same or similar crimes themselves.

[applegrove]

10. Give Obama time to rebuild your trust in your country. It is a new day. It will be an incredible 8

years I think.

[Maru Kitteh]

11. Hope. It's what's for dinner. And one month from now it'll be at work in the oval office.

In OUR house.

[Greyhound]

28. Can millions of us pay our rent/mortgage with hope? Will hope create

millions of jobs? Will hope end the stranglehold of corporate campaign contributions? How well have the millions of homeless we ignore every goddamn day done on hope?

Fuck hope, it is way past time for action! Hope is a fucking slogan meant to pacify those of you that haven't run head-on into reality yet, a ploy to string it out long enough to make the great getaway.

[Skittles]

37. amazing how so many DUers can be living in a dream word, huh greyhound?

:o

[Zorra]

12. The following passage will be WAY too much to read and comprehend for freeper dumbshits.

If Democrats do not make a concerted, transparently sincere attempt to bring the criminal Bu*h administration to justice, I will have no alternative than to believe that Ralph Nader has been correct in his estimation and description of the Democratic Party all along, and, therefore, I will never vote for another Democrat again.

Take notice, Democratic leaders:

I have never missed voting in an election since I was of voting age, and have always voted straight Democrat. I'm a genuine, purebred Yellowdog.

But if Democrats do not pursue, in the utmost ardent, sincere, and transparent manner, the active and effective prosecution of George W. Bu*h, and the Bu*h administration criminals that have perpetrated these blatantly obvious heinous crimes against the People of the US and other citizens of our world, I will abandon the Democratic Party and join the Green Party.

Not prosecuting (and convicting) Bu*h, and his merry band of monsters, would be akin to not prosecuting (and convicting) the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer or Charles Manson because it would be "inconvenient". And that's real, as real as it ever gets.

If they are not prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, I'll (we'll) know for sure what team many Democrats, and all republicans, are playing for. And it's the same team. But it's definitely not my team, and it's fo sho not "America's Team".

Please, no sniveling or whining about forgiveness, moving on, inclusion, letting the past be the past, blah, blah, blah, ad bullshitnutum, etc....or that, shur, Democrats are not perfect, but they're gonna do better than republicans. Because that simply does not apply in this situation.

Criminals, most notably G. W. Bu*h, that have committed the crimes of the magnitude that the Bu*h administration, and it's "affiliates and subsidiaries" have committed, must be brought to justice. End of fucking story. Period. The Law is the law. If you arrest Joe Six Pack for a DUI, then you damn well better arrest and prosecute these career criminals for treason and the murder of multitudes, and for whatever else these enemies of the the US, and every single thing that is half-assed decent, have done to all of us.

Because if this (impending, predictable) travesty of justice occurs, and these monsters are not prosecuted, this nasty past will, certainly, only lead to a much nastier future. And I, for one, am not buying in.

If they are not brought to justice, how can any one of us, We, the People, have any faith at all in the integrity and authority of our government leaders ever again? It is the (effing expletive deleted) solemn duty of President Obama, and every single Democratic member of Congress (republican leaders, are, naturally, held to a much lower standard), individually and collectively, to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that these traitors that have sought the deliberate demise of the Sovereign Nation of United States of America, have sanctioned and fomented the unnecessary sacrifice of the lives of American military personnel, and perpetrated through un-Constitutional sanctions the murder of almost one million innocent Iraqi citizens as well.

Any abrogation of this duty must necessarily be deemed by persons that support and uphold the validity of the US Constitution as Perjury, and an insult to and affront against the People of the United States.

If the Bu*h administration is not prosecuted in a sincere effort to discover the truth and implement justice, many of us, who are politically and economically conscious, will have little choice but to believe these words to be true:

"The global power of the financial cente of rs is so great, that they can afford not to worry about the political tendency of those who hold power in a nation, if the economic program (in other words, the role that nation has in the global economic megaprogram) remains unaltered. The financial disciplines impose themselves upon the different colors of the world political spectrum in regards to the government of any nation. The great world power can tolerate a leftist government in any part of the world, as long as the government does not take measures that go against the needs of the world financial centers. But in no way will it tolerate that an alternative economic, political and social organization consolidate. For the megapolitics, the national politics are dwarfed and submit to the dictates of the financial centers. It will be this way until the dwarfs rebel . ."

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/ezln/1997/jigsaw.html

Well, I spoke my piece. I'm willing to bet there's a lot of Duer's that are somewhat inclined to agree.

Didn't Ben Franklin say, "If they do not hang together, then surely they will hang separately?"

Well, maybe I got it a little tweaked, but the spirit of the ongoing War for Independence is still the same.
:wink:

[Raster]

24. This is a post I wish I could recommend. It is long-past time for justice.

We, the American people, and we, the Democrats of the United States have voted for change in a resounding fashion. It is time for us and our needs to be taken seriously.

[Greyhound]

30. Raster said it, if the "leader of the Democratic Party" fails to prosecute these

criminals, regardless of the letter that follows their name, we have come to the end of the road and there is only one alternative left.

[bdamomma]

44. exactly, this will be up to us, or will we be looking for the international

community come to our rescue, this is our battle and we must step up.

[Zhade]

36. You speak for me.

NT!

[gravity]

13. Persecuting Bush does not fix the problems we face

It is a false dilemma

[Greyhound]

31. Nice spin, prosecuting is not synonymous with persecution.

Universal laws have been broken and there will be prosecution, or there will be a terrible price paid.

[leftofthedial]

14. It's been ending since November of 1963.

[ailsagirl]

45. November 22, 1963 was the BEGINNING of the end

and since then, things have been sliding ever downward into the slime.

John F Kennedy was our last real President.

[Mark Twain Girl]

15. I hear you -- if there's no accountability, no justice, that's inexcusable.

The only option is to pretend that the Bush regime wasn't Really So Bad After All, which is an odious thought. If criminals get away with these crimes... inexcusable and those who excuse them take ownership of the crimes.

[Jester Messiah]

16. The gun.

You're jumping it. Obama is still the president-ELECT. And even once he's in office, do you want him to go off half-cocked, or do you want him to take the time to do it right? Do you want his administration commenting on matters that will become legal investigations and proceedings, possibly unduly effecting them and giving the Bushies grounds to declare mistrials? Just give it time and have some faith!

[Zorra]

21. Interesting concept: "Justice delayed is justice denied".

"Justice delayed is justice denied" is a legal cliché meaning that if legal redress is available for a party that has suffered some injury, but is not forthcoming in a timely fashion, it is effectively the same as having no redress at all. This principle is the basis for the right to a speedy trial and similar rights which are meant to expedite the legal system, because it is unfair for the injured party to have to sustain the injury with little hope for resolution. The phrase has become a rallying cry for legal reformers who view courts or governments as acting too slowly in resolving legal issues either because the existing system is too complex or overburdened, or because the issue or party in question lacks political favor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_delayed_is_justice_denied

[Jester Messiah]

40. Okay, granted. But "timely" doesn't mean "instantly."

I would say that if there's no action within the first year of the presidency, then things are moving too slowly. Bear in mind though that there's a whole lot else to be addressed alongside... economy in the crapper, wars to end, health care to provide. The man only has 100% to give, so if he dedicates 50% of his time and energy to pursuing the Bushies, that's 50% that he doesn't have for fixing the rest of the country.

[L0oniX]

17. It's the end of law. No point in trying to keep them anymore.

It's a free for all ...for the rich and politically powerful ...and I despise them!

[stillcool]

19. It's funny what crimes get 'punished'..

like a blow job in the White House, and what crimes get ignored, like our countries long, long history of intervention and killing in other countries. It is the heart of who we are. I wonder if the Nazi's would have been prosecuted had they not lost the war.

[Raster]

25. Of course not. The victors hold the trials and write the history.

[Festivito]

20. More than rule-of-law, have you still a sense of justice?

What form might it take?

Is knowing the truth enough?
Truth and reconciliation.

Must we hang a few?

Should we fine them?
Should they be sued?

Should we send our garbage to the Hague?

These can be tough questions. So, we just feel impotent. Feel the end coming.

Personally, I'd be happy with the truth and to let them live amongst us in shame. Investigate all the way back to Lincoln. Have those investigations as permanent, centered at universities, employ the students and even include corporations donating an overseer each year from a different corporation each year.

But, that's just me.

[Greyhound]

33. No, it is not sufficient. I don't believe that hanging is used anymore, but I

could be wrong.

Fines are insignificant to the parasite class.

The Hague is a viable option.

They do not, have not, and never will, live amongst us, so that is irrelevant.

[Hekate]

26. Christ on a Trailer Hitch, what a lot of bitter, all-is-lost posts in one thread.

OBAMA IS NOT THE PRESIDENT YET.

Hekate

edited to reflect that I read all of the thread

[Fearless]

27. I'm waiting for the crackpot 2012 response...

:tinfoilhat:

[deaniac21]

29. The Savior hasn't even started yet. What chou talkin bout Willis?

[seemslikeadream]

32. It's kinda what I have been saying for awhile now

:hi:

[Octafish]

34. It's been a long time since traitors were held to account.

I'd say since at least FDR's day, when the Old Boys from Wall Street attempted a coup against the "socialist" New Deal and enlisted Gen. Smedley D. Butler, USMC (ret.). Butler turned them into Congress. Even though they got caught red-handed, many of the biggest names in big American money got away with it, scot-free.

I'd guess it wasn't really scot-free to get out of the investigator's cross-hairs. Would that have been J Edgar Hoover? It must've cost 'em a small fortune.

Regarding the present day: You are absolutely right, ThomWV. More and more neighbors and friends have stated the same thing. It feels as if collapse or revolution or both are coming. For the sake of our kids, I hope not. They deserve a better world. And that's why we work for peace. And to achieve that, we need justice. K&R 13.

[Solly Mack]

38. America's gonna need a bigger rug

Sadly, one will be found

[moondust]

39. It's already a corporate wasteland.

Millions of unemployed and underemployed and more on the way who will not be applying for the millions of jobs that corporations have shipped abroad to third world sweat shops. Not to mention widespread corruption and incompetence.

[robertpaulsen]

41. I won't be concerned about the lack of assurances until January 21.

At this moment of -22 days before an Obama administration officially begins, my great concern is that Dubya pardons everyone before a real criminal pursuit can actually have some teeth. That won't be until January 21, which is when I will start haranguing TPTB (change.gov?) to start implementing the change America really needs.

But for the next 22 days, if Obama really has any intentions of bringing these criminals to justice, then I am glad he's keeping his mouth shut. Don't give the Crazies any reason to put their guard up. Let Cheney keep up his "So what?" blather and braggadocio regarding his Vice Thuggery. Let Larry Franklin keep rotting in prison forgotten. Let them keep thinking for the next 22 days that except for the positive new attitude it will be four more years of business as usual.

Then demand those assurances. And never let up.

[madokie]

46. I have no idea as to how this will work out

but if I were PE Obama I wouldn't want anyone at this point to even suspect if I was planning to push for investigations. If we can get the investigations the public will demand that charges be filed. Yep once the joe six packs finally sees what we've been seeing all along he/they will be some kind of pissed off. imo

Who's to know that there won't be some arrests made shortly after noon on the 20th of January.