Larisa Alexandrovna: Mike Connell Plane Crash Update

[Hissyspit]

From Larisa:

http://www.atlargely.com/2008/12/connell-update-preliminary-interagency-report-and-more-questions.html

December 25, 2008

Connell update - preliminary inter-agency report and more questions...
UPDATE BELOW:

In short:
-Not medical
-Not weather
-Not running out of gas (which the investigation had first suspected, but has now ruled out - it is not mentioned below, however)

Here is a good story on it(emphasis mine):

Connell was attempting a landing on Runway 23 at the Akron-Canton Airport, but his plane crashed about three miles short of his destination. Troopers with the Highway Patrol’s Canton post said the plane made a forced landing, hit a flagpole and rolled several times.

<snip>

NTSB investigator Mitch Gallo examined wreckage and talked with witnesses on Tuesday, agency spokeswoman Bridget Serchak said on Wednesday. The agency still needs information from the air traffic controller, weather details and a radar study, she said.

So far the investigation shows that the plane had no issues with flight control and there was no icing, Serchak said. The plane’s propeller had damage that indicates the engine was operating when the crash occurred.

A preliminary report should be filed within 10 working days, Serchak said. NTSB has one year to complete it’s factual report and the NTSB board will vote on a probable cause ruling for the accident shortly after the report is filed.

Data collected by the Highway Patrol was being completed Wednesday for the NTSB, a spokesman for the Canton post said. While the Highway Patrol collects information about airplane crashes, it doesn’t determine cause of the crashes, the spokesman said.

The Stark County Coroner’s office has given samples collected in an autopsy of Connell to FAA laboratories, a spokeswoman for Dr. P.S. Murthy said. The agency supplies a kit listing samples to be collected, the spokeswoman said.

Indications are Connell died from massive traumatic injuries. Although the wreckage burned following the crash, Connell’s body wasn’t burned, the spokeswoman said.

There are no indications that Connell suffered from any medical problems, the spokeswoman said.

Now can someone who is is a pilot explain a few things to me here. I am trying to understand the verbiage and elements of your profession:

1. If there were no "issues with flight control" do they mean avionics?

2. So given that everything else was ruled out, the only thing left is mechanical, am I right? Am I wrong and missing an important genre?

3. Is there anything else that is not covered under mechanical, avionics, health, and weather (he was not a drug user from what I have been told, so for now at least, let's leave it off the table of considerations) that would explain that his plane went down three miles from landing (I know he was on instruments now, rather than line of sight), with a working engine?

4. Is the propeller mentioned only as indicative of the engine working or is it being broken something to consider as an actual cause for the accident?

And some questions in general:

1. Does "indications are Connell died from massive traumatic injuries. Although the wreckage burned following the crash, Connell’s body wasn’t burned" mean he was was thrown from the plane as soon as the plane went down?

2. And finally, this just occurred to me tonight. Connell knew the Bush family very well. He knew members of Congress very well. He has been a staple of the GOP IT scene for ages. He even worked on the McCain camp. So what is wrong with this sorry lot of people, that not a single one of them issued a public condolence to this man? Not even the head of the RNC for crying out loud. Connell has worked with the RNC for years. He has worked with the Chamber of Commerce for years. He was friends with and knew very important people. He dies a few days before Christmas, leaving 4 kids and a widow behind and NOT ONE person could find the time to issue a public condolences to his family?

The President has time to pardon turkeys and pardon criminals, but not to issue even a single sentence of condolence to a man he has known for years? Rove? Where is he at? John McCain? Anyone? I don't understand how no one thought to issue a statement of support for the family, especially since a father of four won't be there for Christmas?

UPDATE:

As always, it seems that I have to keep clarrifying things. My taking the entire right-wing power structure to the wood shed is for obvious reasons, not imagined reasons by people who are hell bent on imagining something. Simply put, I think it is heartless. That is why I brought it up. And frankly, it is incredibly heartless. What, they are too damn busy with their presents?

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/Documents_reveal_how_Ohio_routed_2004_1031.html

[Richard D]

1. I'm not a pilot,

but I've done a lot of time in small planes.

regarding the propeller, I think that means that the propeller was active when it hit the ground, and that in hitting the ground the prop was damaged.

This report seems to indicate that mechanics weren't the problem. Avionics aren't mentioned. Was it IFR or VFR conditions? I seem to recall that weather wasn't an issue, so if it was VFR, avionics should not have been an issue.

It is very weird that there were no condolence statements.

Hope this helps a little.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. Supposedly IFR and...

I read that McConnell had an IFR rating.

[Richard D]

4. Then certainly

having a "malfunction" in the avionics could be a reason for crashing. It's astounding how fast a pilot can get disoriented as to the attitude of the plane when you can't see out the window. Then total dependence on the avionics is called for. that should be second nature for an IFR rated pilot, unless there was something wrong with the instruments.

[landdolphin]

76. FAA Spokesperson says Connell on ILS Approach to Runway 23

I spoke with Laura Brown at the FAA and she informed me Tuesday that Connell was on ILS (Instrument Landing System) approach to runway 23 before he crashed at 5:53PM.

[libertypirate]

83. Well this is quite interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system



The localizer receiver on the aircraft measures the Difference in the Depth of Modulation (DDM) of the 90 Hz and 150 Hz signals. For the localizer, the depth of modulation for each of the modulating frequencies is 20 percent. The difference between the two signals varies depending on the position of the approaching aircraft from the centerline.

If there is a predominance of either 90 Hz or 150 Hz modulation, the aircraft is off the centerline. In the cockpit, the needle on the Horizontal Situation Indicator, or HSI (The Instrument part of the ILS), or CDI (Course deviation indicator), will show that the aircraft needs to fly left or right to correct the error to fly down the center of the runway. If the DDM is zero the aircraft is on the centerline of the localizer coinciding with the physical runway centerline.

A glideslope or Glidepath (GP) antenna array is sited to one side of the runway touchdown zone. The GP signal is transmitted on a carrier frequency between 329.15 and 335 MHz using a technique similar to that of the localizer. The centerline of the glideslope signal is arranged to define a glideslope of approximately 3° above horizontal (ground level).
...

Further down

On most installations marker beacons operating at a carrier frequency of 75 MHz are provided. When the transmission from a marker beacon is received it activates an indicator on the pilot's instrument panel and the tone of the beacon is audible to the pilot. The distance from the runway at which this indication should be received is promulgated in the documentation for that approach, together with the height at which the aircraft should be if correctly established on the ILS. This provides a check on the correct function of the glideslope. In modern ILS installations a DME is installed, co-located with the ILS, to augment or replace marker beacons. A DME continuously displays the aircraft's distance to the runway.


I had no idea how vulnerable this system was to tampering until I read all this. Of all the bullshit they made people go through on 911 and they didn't fix this system.

[caraher]

90. What are you talking about?

That's just a technical description of how ILS works. Nothing in it indicates any outrageous vulnerability to tampering. Sure, if the beacons are not doing their jobs the results can be fatal, but that's true of any number of things, and if you want to kill one person messing with ILS at their expected destination strikes me as very poor method.

[backscatter712]

97. If I were one of Rove's plumbers...

The way I would have sabotaged Connell's aircraft would have been to mess with his ILS instruments. Attenuate the high part of the glideslope signal, or miscalibrate the glideslope needle. In essence, make the needle show he's flying too high, so the pilot corrects by flying downwards. Sure enough, he flies himself into the ground.

The best part is that the evidence of sabotage is subtle, and easily destroyed in the crash, so nobody would know what happened. They'll just attribute it to bad weather, a disoriented pilot, that sort of thing.

[libertypirate]

112. You don't have to mess with the instrumentation, just fuck with the signal

The pilot will start their decent when the computer tells them it has reached the signal for a particular airport. If the signal is early the pilot will start shedding altitude at a particular angle, and land short of the field. The same technology signal apparently is used for altitude identifying when the pilot should level out. It doesn't seem that the aircraft received the signal telling him to level the aircraft for landing.

The whole system is dependent on radio signals from the landing strip; like a reverse radar. Different frequencies indicate range until landing. The ILS is just radio assisted landing. Radio signals are pretty easy to mess with.

[elleng]

2. ???Indications are Connell died from massive traumatic injuries?

??

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

5. That's the sort of thing you will have...

When your plane augers in and you are in it.

[Pastiche423]

6. True that

But doesn't the same apply to...


When your plane becomes a fireball, so do you?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. Generally speaking, yes.

Depends on what happens when the plane hits and breaks up, if you are thrown sufficiently clear of the fire. Crashes are usually Chaos Theory writ large. Anything can happen. Ask people who have been through horrific airliner crashes and lived. Admittedly, there ain't a lot of them, but it has happened.

Don't get me wrong: if there ever was a small plane crash that should be exhaustively investigated as a possible murder, this one is it. Means, motive and opportunity all can be said to exist here.

[lala_rawraw]

22. likely from being thrown i would think... the impact n/t

[malaise]

7. Thisi s profound

And finally, this just occurred to me tonight. Connell knew the Bush family very well. He knew members of Congress very well. He has been a staple of the GOP IT scene for ages. He even worked on the McCain camp. So what is wrong with this sorry lot of people, that not a single one of them issued a public condolence to this man? Not even the head of the RNC for crying out loud. Connell has worked with the RNC for years. He has worked with the Chamber of Commerce for years. He was friends with and knew very important people. He dies a few days before Christmas, leaving 4 kids and a widow behind and NOT ONE person could find the time to issue a public condolences to his family?
-------------
Not a word from one of them. Beyond strange - very suspicious.

[Truth Teller]

12. Is the inference a lack of condolences indicates foul play?

So, they knocked off Connell and are withholding condolences...because...why, exactly? They want to look guilty?

If this had been murder, the perps would be doing everything they could to look like they were reacting normally.

Insensitive, yeah. But hardly an indication of foul play.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[annabanana]

27. (ganging up on you all by hisself). . . . n/t

[annabanana]

25. I think it is at least an indicator of a massive failure of simple human feeling.

It is despicable beyond all reason that there should have been not one statement of condolence for the huge loss that this family has sustained. All these "important" people and not one stinking statement of sorrow for his loss? What kind of soul sickness do they harbor in the core of their beings?

[lala_rawraw]

36. yep...

go see what his sister said about them in my blog post on this... i cannot imagine what kind of anger people are feeling. it is like he never existed. that is heartless and they should all be ashamed.

[creeksneakers2]

15. Where would we learn about it if condolences were offered?

I can't see the papers carrying that and anyway the condolences would be sent to Mr. Connell's widow, not to the mass media.

[lala_rawraw]

20. right, because

papers never carry condolences issued by public figures, like the President of the United States. we also know, because the family told me so. his sister did. she also posted a comment in that thread that Hissy cited.

yes, they are heartless bastards.

[annabanana]

26. You'd think there would have been at least a note from the leadership

of the RNC to it's members...something. .

[lala_rawraw]

43. maybe they were too busy working on the Libby pardon?

[antipode]

9. I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm a commercial pilot and an aero engineer

and I can address some of your questions.
==========================================================================

Now can someone who is is a pilot explain a few things to me here. I am trying to understand the verbiage and elements of your profession:

1. If there were no "issues with flight control" do they mean avionics?

Avionics (aviation electronics) are essential to safe flight in less than optimum conditions...in clouds, low visibility, at night,
freezing precip, etc. They are not required at all for engines and control serfaces to function...in the typical 'small' airplane.
Obviously the situation is different in large 'fly by wire' types like an Airbus, for example.


2. So given that everything else was ruled out, the only thing left is mechanical, am I right? Am I wrong and missing an important genre?

Nothing has, AFAIK been ruled out. That will be done by the NTSB which has barely had a chance to take pictures, let alone formulate the syllabus for this particular investigation. Any "conclusions" you may have heard are no such thing, they are speculation...generally from people who know not one damn thing about airplanes.


3. Is there anything else that is not covered under mechanical, avionics, health, and weather (he was not a drug user from what I have been told, so for now at least, let's leave it off the table of considerations) that would explain that his plane went down three miles from landing (I know he was on instruments now, rather than line of sight), with a working engine?

There are many possibilities...including physical incapacitation (stroke, heart attack etc.), vertigo (a very real and common phenomenon), clear and/or rime ice on the wings and control surfaces, high powered neutron beams aimed from hidden bunkers in the Ohio countryside...(okay I made that one up). (By the way, there are times when 'line of sight' is marginal enough that a reasonably well trained pilot will be "on instruments" anyhow.)


4. Is the propeller mentioned only as indicative of the engine working or is it being broken something to consider as an actual cause for the accident?

If the propeller is bent with the tips forward, it means the engine was producing positive thrust power (at least enough to overcome drag)...if the tips are bent back, the engine wasn't working...much. These things are even more basic than Accident Investigation 101. ;-)

[lala_rawraw]

19. i am asking questions

as any investigator should be and you do have a dog in this fight, or did you forget the other posts you made? that aside, i appreciate the information. i am indeed curious about aviation security now.

as for stroke, no, that was all ruled out. i thought heart attack at first too. in any case, aside from your attacks for every single one of your posts since you have been here, this was an informative entry.

[kenfrequed]

49. Convenient

Another in a long line of convenient accidents that happen to favor the Bush administration. Would that I had so many fortuitous synchronicities.

[underpants]

55. Bunker based high power neutron beams-- I KNEW IT!!

:sarcasm:

Most likely scenario (aside from mechanical problems not yet determined) is physical ailment. I'm not a pilot but that is the highest likelihood. Even given that there will be people thinking he was drugged or gassed or some wild theory like that. Not that we can completely disregard the players in this weird drama. ;-)

Thanks for the info.

[kristopher]

67. I Endorse Your Comments

If I had to gues, at this point I'd select #3 to focus on. Instant death, pilot with no safety harness on pitches forward onto controls at low altitude and craters.

[Gregorian]

10. About the only reasonable non-tampering scenario would be a stall.

It's right about in the region where a stall would happen. Eye witness accounts could help confirm/deny that. I have personally witnessed a stall into an airport where the pilot was simply landing WITH the wind. Boom, upside down, pieces of prop flinging down the runway. And with any ice, which they also seem to have ruled out, a stall could have been even easier.

It's all guessing until something material pops up. With prior warnings, it sure is suspicious though. I can imagine someone removing an aileron hinge, if that's even possible. Who knows.

Otherwise, it's an interesting problem. Especially if they did find prop markings that indicate it was under power when it hit the dirt. I'll be very curious to see the findings.

[lala_rawraw]

21. that is what

my friend, a pilot also said. but the engine was on full throttle (there will an article on the reports, and eye-witness accounts we have collected)... so i am thinking it was mechanical, something with the engine. it would jive with what happened to him before. when i was meeting with his wife, on that very same day was one of his aborted flights. there were two aborted flights prior to this. she told me he was having engine trouble. so it is possible that the same engine trouble from before was never resolved. i am leaning toward that, simply because he was on full throttle, despite coming in for a landing and on ISL controls, while heading nearly straight down. also, wind was at 13 knots... but not sure if that would be an issue.

[Gregorian]

31. Full throttle could also be an indication of trying to recover from a stall.

Total conjecture on my part. And a more seasoned pilot could contradict that.

Wind speed wouldn't play a significant role until nearly landed. And my experience was at a high altitude airport, which made windspeed even more critical.

Two prior engine problems. That's a pretty obvious clue.

I'm thinking that he's coming in for approach, and he throttles down a bit, and that is where the trouble began. Guessing, again...

[lala_rawraw]

35. he was

at about 1500 feet when full throttle went... the eye witnesses we talked to said he was in full throttle heading down at almost a complete nose - dive (not straight down, but almost straight down)... does that sound like engine? this is why i first thought heart attack... because he could have fallen on the controls. but that has been ruled out.

[Gregorian]

52. 1500 feet is the minimum for practicing a stall.

So that gives an indication of being right on the limit with respect to altitude. That does sound like a stall. Or a slumped pilot on the control. Or an aileron that was tampered with, which I wouldn't dare to surmise without proof.

It has been a long time since I've flown. So I cannot give my experience of being in stall conditions at 1500 feet.

I'm not sure what this means- "when full throttle went...". I'm assuming that means that he was under full throttle as the plane was diving downward.

I hope we can trust the pros as the NTSB to do what they're good doing. Chances are very good they...I better not say anything. Bush has ways of doing just about anything. I wonder if in a case of dirty tricks the CIA could come in and usurp a job from the NTSB. And then color it.

[burythehatchet]

11. I heard he's going to be Ken Lay's pilot

[Truth Teller]

13. Will Larisa respect the NTSB's findings?

Right now, she's taking every preliminary tidbit and treating it as gospel and is twisting them into suspicions.

So when the NTSB makes it's final report, will that be respected? Or will they become part of a broader conspiracy along with local media, national media, airport authorities, etc.?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anigbrowl]

39. I haven't attacked you at all, but...

you'd be more credible if you just solicited information where it seemed available and refrained from arguing. Right now your credibility with me is about 50/50. I have no connection at all with this other poster you keep arguing with, and no particular prior opinion about you; I just don't think that arguing with every other poster in the thread bolsters your standing as a reporter any. After all, you haven't cited any evidence (other than your hunch) to show that these multiple accounts you are talking about actually belong to the same person. So, pot, kettle and all that.

[lala_rawraw]

44. you are right...

it is my own hunch, but i did report it to the admins... if i am wrong, then we will see these accounts continue. if i am right, then they will be discontinued... you missed the first series of communications here where i was very polite. but then the person in question began making astonishing claims contrary to evidence well know. for example, he claimed that I was the one from where the threat allegations originated, that i was their source. that is not true. i reported on what the court documents said and my own experience is that he was frightened. but his deposition relating to those alleged threats was asked by his laywers to be sealed... so we have no idea what was said or if he admitted to being scared. i explained all this, provided links and the person continued. but at that point, 3 other personalities, newly created showed up and started spouting the same things. that too me suggests that there is a good chance this is the same person. my hunch is it is... which is why I reported it. the admins will take a look and we shall see if I was right or wrong.

anyway, i argued because it got crazy and perhaps i should have just called a night. who knows. but as of now, good night is most certainly in order. take care.

[creeksneakers2]

84. Are you still talking about me?

Its hard to tell because you think I am four different people so you may be confusing what one said with the other people you mistakenly believe I am. I'm only one person, and yes, I am still here.

I've never said you were the original or only source for the threat stories. Please show where I did.

I've said you are the original source for two parts of this story we are following. The first time I called you the original source was when you said Connell's lawyers asked the court for protection. We agree that the court discussions about the alleged threats to Mr. Connell were under seal. Following that, you explained, no one else can talk about what happened in court over the threats and nobody knows but you and the people involved. You didn't say, but suggested that somebody could have leaked to you what happened in the hearing. That still leaves you as the only source of the Connell's lawyers asking for protection story. Now, in this post, you say you have no idea what went on at the hearing. Its also noteworthy that you said the attorney general was in the private meeting in the judges chambers over the alleged threats. The account I read had two members of the AG's office in telephone contact with the hearing, but no AG.

I also said you were the only source of the story that Mr. Connell was about to spill the beans. I haven't found anybody else who says that yet. Huffington Post today reported that a man they identified as a GOP friend of Mr. Connell's told them Mr. Connell was starting to have second thoughts. That lends a little weight to your account. Its this story from you, that Mr. Connell was about to tell all, that I'd like to ask questions about.

I'D LIKE TO ADD:

I think the discussion we are talking about here started at my comment 189.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3653385#3654049

ALSO ADD:

You've accused me of saying the plane came from Pennsylvania and I think some other stuff about my response to your original report that the plane was on its way to Washington when it crashed. What was actually said is at the link above.

[Truth Teller]

50. Your response says a lot

I'm not anyone's sock puppet. This is my only account here. I've posted about many issues, including the Connell bullshit. I've challenged many posters on it, not just you.

But you assume I'm part of a larger conspiracy to discredit you. That tells me you're prone to assuming hidden conspiracies where there are no facts to support it.

My point was, you refer to preliminary NTSB information and don't question it. When they make their final report, will you respect it? If they rule it an accident, will you then suggest they are part of a broader conspiracy, rather than admit you were wrong?

And can we at least be intellectually honest enough to agree your motivation in pursuing the story is to raise doubt, not simply report the facts down the middle?

[OnTheOtherHand]

53. shrug

I tend to agree that the poster is "prone to assuming hidden conspiracies" or malevolent action when the evidence doesn't particularly indicate it.

As a matter of logic, I'm not sure a reasonable observer could pledge in advance to accept a report that doesn't exist yet, no matter how sterling NTSB's reputation.

If someone is predisposed to perceive hidden conspiracies or malevolence, then his or her attempt to "simply report the facts down the middle" will look different than it would otherwise.

I doubt that Mike Connell met with foul play.

[Ellipsis]

59. Fate at the hand of a flagpole...

...what a twist.

[OnTheOtherHand]

75. whatever else one says, it's a strange story

A bunch of strange stories, really.

[lala_rawraw]

60. dude

get over it already... i explained why i believed you were a sockpuppet... it was based on the obvious: three newbie posters show up repeating the same exact and completely false mantra all in the same threads. it is not so much my belief in conspiracy theories as my disbelief in so many people being so completely crazy as to make crap up out of thin air and follow me from thread to thread posting it. apparently, there are quite a few insane people with an interest in spreading crap around. glad you made some friends.

my motivation is not to raise doubt by the way. i am expressing my own concerns outside of a news article. i have absolutely every obligation to do so given the context.

[youngharry]

68. NTSB Report

Sure I will accept it, just like I accept the 9/11 Commission Report and the Assassination of JFK, MLK And Bobby Kennedy, Paul Wellstone, Mel Carnahan, John F. Kennedy, Jr, the DC Madam suicide, etc. etc. etc.

[certainot]

69. hard to trust the NTSB- consider samantha smith's crash

head guy is an old bush/nixon guy- from another post:
"Also, NTSB (now acting) Chair is Mark Rosenker.  Rosenker most recently served as GW Bush's head of the White House Military Office 2001-2005.  He also served in the George HW Bush Administration.  And is a retired USAF Reserve General (entered the service in '69). "
"In 1972, Rosenker was able to be a member of Nixon's Campaign to Reelect the President, also known as CREEP. Since this campaign, Rosenker participated in every presidential campaign to date."

the NTSB probably doesn't consider assassination by plane- there are too many other obscure possibilities to choose from. take the samantha smith (the anti-reagan/star wars PR disaster) and her death by plane crash in 1985 at the Auburn -Lewiston Airport, Maine in a Beech 99. (see the ref to samantha in sheryl seal's list of possible assass by plane http://www.unknownnews.net/cdd1120.html)

Experienced flying writer J Mac McLellan reviewed the crash in Flying magazine (May 1987)- " In the end the NTSB made the obvious determination that the probable cause of the accident was the captain's continuation of an unstabilized approach, resulting in a descent below the glidescope. Contributing to the unstabilized approach was the radar controller's issuance of and the pilot's acceptance of a nonstandard vector that resulted in an excessive intercept with the localizer." It ended up being blamed on the pilots. He goes on "So all we know is that this flight crew flew one of the worst approaches ever documented, but we don't have a single hint as to why." and "We can only guess what happened on that dark night". "What could possibly have caused this crew to become so confused on what should have been a simple IFR approach? Despite comprehensive study of the airplane"..."the NTSB could not determine what went wrong". "The reconstruction of the flight path reveals a course so erratic it hardly qualifies as unstable". The NTSB report mentions NAV/COM and altimeter problems as possible sources of error contributing to the unstable approach.

Both altimeters were found with inaccurate settings. The NTSB couldn't figure out how this happened. When the plane hit trees at 345 ft the captain's altimeter would have ben showing an altitude of 480-544ft. Also, the No 1 Navigation/Communication transceiver was replaced the day before the accident. For considerable lengths of the 100nm trip the plane drifted east up to 2nm off the desired course. Speeds were very erratic.

But as long as murder by plane is considered tin foil territory the NTSB would not suggest murder even if the possibility and motive are real, even if they wanted to. americans need to push for a real congressional investigation of connell's death as a possible hit and not leave it to the NTSB. until then more political problems may be solved by this method and labeled routinely as accidents. and representatives and others will continue to be intimidated.

[pa28]

14. One thing missing the NTSB will certainly zero in on. Pilot fatigue.

From what I read he had a very long day and then attempted a difficult flight in darkness with a variety of weather factors along the way. The NTSB will be all over that in their report barring some catastrophic failure of the plane. Anybody wanting a head start on where the investigators will be looking should check into Connell's activities before the flight began.

Who knows if this was really the cause but citing pilot fatigue in an accident report is an FAA/ntsb favorite even if mechanical failures played into the accident. This is for good reason usually, disorientation, incorrect avionics settings or any variety of potentially fatal mistakes happen with notable frequency when a pilot is tired.

P.S. when they say flight control they are referring to the actual controls/control surfaces of the plane. I don't see how anybody could possibly have ruled that already considering all the riggings and controls have to be taken out and examined.

[usregimechange]

16. What the...

[catnhatnh]

17. Stalling on landing approach...

...was posited for Paul Wellstone's crash. Arguing for it is that it has been a factor in many light plane crashes, and arguing against it is that experienced pilots are well aware it has been a factor in many light plane crashes.

Lift is produced by the airfoil of the wing forcing a relatively laminar flow of air to move faster over the top of the wing than the bottom that produces a lower pressure above the wing and thus lift. It is a factor of "bernoulli's law". Stalls occur when a combination of low airspeed and/or an increase of the angle of attack of the wing "spoil" the flow of air over the wing causing the air to swirl over the wing in a turbulent matter and removing the wings ability to produce lift.

At this point recovery from the stall can only be achieved by nosing the plane downward and waiting for the speed to increase enough to smooth the flow and re-establish lift.Often on approach there is not enough altitude for this to occur.

Because stall/and stall/spin scenarios are so often fatal, most student pilots are taught to recognize the signs of impending stalls early in their training. The most obvious sign is a buffeting of the airframe followed by stalling. This is practiced at high altitudes to allow time enough for the student to learn to recover or for the instructor to take over if the student fails to recover in a reasonable period of time.

The above said, approach speed will be one of the most carefully watched factors during an instrument approach. Part of such an approach is a carefully chosen instrument scan though a selection of gauges relying most heavily on flight attitude and airspeed and directional instruments...When you watch those movies of commercial aircraft taking off or landing that is why the copilot is most often shown calling out the speed-you need X amount to achieve takeoff and X amount to land.

Many mistakes can be fatal when flying a light plane but few faster than a low level stall. And Connell knew this.

[lala_rawraw]

24. would you

then put the engine on full throttle to achieve this? i am no pilot, so really, this is greek to me... i am learning all of this now... but i would think that would quicken the plane to an accident... seems like the more reasonable thing to do would be to pull back on the engine.

[catnhatnh]

33. First the disclaimer...I am not a pilot....I just have time around that community...

And you have hit the nail on the head. At too low an altitude there is no correct answer, just an insuing crash.

I have tenatively identified the plane as N9299N which can be seen here.

http://www.pilotmarket.com/aircrafts/Aircraft_For_Sale/Single_Engine_Piston/Piper/Saratoga/listing-12862-43958613.html

Checking the net I see the plane rated to stall at about 57 knots indicated airspeed (about 65 mph) with flaps down. If on an instrument approach at a normal speed for this aircraft (90kias) and standard 3% glideslope the aircraft at 3 miles would be about 1400' altitude and less than 90 seconds from touching down.

Again I ask pilots here to backstop me and correct any errors...

[anigbrowl]

40. Er, no

(not a pilot either, btw; but this is basic stuff)
If you're stalling, you're already falling because the engine isn't putting out enough power to move you forward. Pulling back on the engine is just going to make your problem worse. Sure, if your nose is pointing straight down then jacking up the power is indeed going to bring you to the ground faster, but it will also give you the option of pulling back on the stick and climbing again. If you have no power, then your only option is to continue falling. You can't really glide because you don't have enough forward momentum in the first place.

I suggest you download or otherwise obtain a copy of some software like Microsoft Flight Simulator. Or call up someone you know with a pilot license and give them $100 for gas to fly you around for an hour or two and show you what's involved. This won't answer any specific questions about the Connell crash but it will at least give you a basic understanding of what's involved in lfying a plane, what the basic controls and instruments are, etc.

[lala_rawraw]

42. so

what do you if you are stalling at such a low altitude? from the data, he is still good at 3500...then between the crash and at about 1500, his plane goes wacko. you know, if this is indeed mechanical, the family will have one hell of a law suit, no?

oh, and i don't like planes... not since 9/11 and two of them crashing into my neighborhood (I lived at 25 Broad St.). flying for me requires massive sedation... a small plan, i will have to be under general anesthetic. ;)

[anigbrowl]

45. That I can't answer - I just know in general what a stall is

It's like in driving, you hear that if you skid you should steer into it (which is also counter-intuitive), but that's kinda abstract until the first time you actually experience it. I dunno about lawsuits if the trouble was mechanical, I suppose that owuld depend on when the engine was last maintained.

this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4695148 had some useful technical information about the weather, the plane etc. and one or two people with flying experience who had some insight on engine failure and the like, might be worth looking up.

[yodoobo]

103. Stalls at low altitude are very difficult to recover from

At high altitude you have 2 ways to recover from a stall. 1) Point the nose down to pickup airspeed, trading altitude for speed 2) add power

At low altitude, option #1 is gone. That only leaves option #2

[formercia]

46. Power for altitude, attitude for airspeed.

If you want to gain altitude with a constant attitude, add power. If you want to gain airspeed with constant throttle, lower the nose.

My thought is a restriction in fuel flow. If you can't maintain altitude, you add power, but if the fuel supply is restricted due to fuel contamination, you can apply power, but the engine is limited by fuel flow. If you're at max throttle and you keep losing altitude, eventually you will impact with the engine running. If you try to pull up, you will lose airspeed and eventually stall. Same result.

[Richard D]

28. At three miles out . . .

. . . wouldn't the altitude have been sufficient to recover from a stall?

[Gregorian]

32. I would expect his altitude to be sufficient at that distance out. But..

That's where perhaps the airport location could yield clues. But three miles out, he'd probably not be coming in low, is my guess.

Now we need professional advice. Single engine, stall recovery distance given someone who was fighting it instead of logically doing a proper recovery.

And then there is the chance of a secondary stall, even if he had one that he recovered from.

A lot of variables and scenarios.

[Hawkowl]

87. 900' AGL

Instrument Landing System (ILS) approaches are based on a 3:1 descent ratio. So 5 miles out equals about 1500' above ground level (AGL), 3 miles 900 AGL, etc.

200 - 500 feet should be adequate to recover from a stall if the pilot is fairly sharp. A stall on an ILS approach is not very likely if there wasn't any ice on the wing. (I have not examined the weather report).

Wellstone's accident was blamed on a failed attitude indicator (artificial horizon gyro) which is typically powered by a vacuum pump off the engine on small planes. It is VERY difficult to fly in the clouds without an attitude indicator.

Something to keep in mind is the fact that accidents rarely have a single cause. It is usually a chain of small errors and failures that eventually overwhelm or sneak up on a pilot.

In an accident like this something like a small instrument failure, combined with pilot fatigue, poor weather and slight icing up of the wing or pitot tube or static ports, and something as simple as tuning in the wrong navigation frequency would be enough to do the pilot in. In all likelihood, we probably will never know the exact cause of this crash. There are no black boxes on small aircraft.

I'm a 12,000 hour airline captain and have been flying for twenty years.

[Octafish]

29. K&R 13 and ALL for LaLa_RawRaw.

Larisa, BradBlog, Wasserman and Fitrakis deserve a Pulitzer.
The Pulitzer certainly doesn't deserve them.
They are true stars of journalism.



The Shoe Heard 'Round the World
Virtual Trophy for Truth

[TexasObserver]

30. K&R

[Cleita]

34. Someone has suggested it could be suicide.

Could there have been threats against his family making suicide his only way out?

[anigbrowl]

41. Maybe, but you'd think that a less populated area would be preferred if so

I mean, crashing your plane into the lawn of someone's house makes a disaster pretty likely. If one just wanted to do away with oneself an unpopulated area would seem more likely.

[Cleita]

58. Very good point.

Actually, I'm more of the assassination school of thought. Suicide seemed like another intriguing idea, however, I think you are right about this. I hope there is a very thorough investigation into this if not by authorities, by independent investigators.

[bertman]

61. Maybe I am naive, but the suicide element seems unlikely. Think about it. If you were

threatened by some entity or individual who says he/they are going to do awful things to your family (and you) if you do the thing they DO NOT want you to do, would you give up so easily?

I knew someone a while back whose husband did some dealings with the mob and reneged on his end of the deal. When hubby left town the mob boys came to her and threatened her and her son. The first thing she did was write a letter explaining exactly what had happened, who was involved and what they had threatened her with. She made multiple copies and secretly distributed them to friends and family with instructions that they were to give them to the police, FBI and local news organizations if ANYTHING bad happened to her or her son. Then she went to the guy who had threatened her and told him exactly what she had done, except, of course, she did not tell him who she gave/sent the letters to.

She never heard another word about her husbands' debt or his misdeeds.

My point here is that smart people have options to protect themselves and their families by making the threat known. If enough blogs, news outlets, and liberal rags get the word, the likelihood of the perps following through is bound to go way down.

[libertypirate]

64. It is a little different then that,

in the case of the Federal criminal you have to completely relieve the pressure by spilling all the beans. You're only a threat when you stay silent, once the dirt is in the open the threat moves on. Then the onus is on those who are still silent.

The truth will set you free, this is literal!

[landdolphin]

77. Connell a profoundly religious man by all accounts

and Catholic. Very devout. Given this I would suggest that suicide very unlikely, given his spiritual beliefs or those common to Catholics regarding suicide. Besides Lt Sheppard of the Highway Patrol has said to the media that it appeared the pilot was trying to make a landing. If true then Connell would be conscious and perhaps fighting for control of the plane until last second. Which leaves the question why two witnesses used the word, "accelerating" to describe the tone of the engine which according to one of those witnesses was full throttle. What was happening to his engine to make it sound this way. Like a full whine, max RPM. One witness was first on scene with a video camera. His footage is on youtube (name is Loel Stein I think) and the other wishes to remain anonymous though he filed a formal statement with the Highway Patrol last Saturday when they visited his home about a mile from the crash site.

[lala_rawraw]

73. He was a devout Catholic

So I don't think so. Plus, he was communicating with ground control and declared an emergency and landing in a residential area could have killed people. So I think this is highly unlikely. Mechanical and in particular engine or stalling is what it seems people are agreeing on. We shall see what the end result is, however.

[Cleita]

82. I think we can eliminate suicide from the answers to my post.

I don't think it was an accident though. It's beginning more and more to look like assassination.

:tinfoilhat:

[bleever]

37. K&R.

Keep asking these questions, and the next ones that arise as well.

I'm so sorry to hear that his family's suffering is compounded by the silence of the employers to whom he was so loyal.

[anigbrowl]

38. Kicked an recced for sensible, level-headed speculation and useful information

Well done, Hissyspit.

[TheUnspeakable]

47. k&r

[formercia]

48. Known fuel issues with Connell's aircraft type

http://forums.piperowner.org/read/4/92076/page=2

"If I'm on short final and forget (yes, that happens in a blue moon, doesn't it) to turn on the electric pump, my engine could die during landing which could make a go around (if needed) impossible, if not disasterous. This did not happen before the overhaul. The engine ran fine without the electric pump. And the electric pump should be a BACK-UP to the mechanical pump, not the only thing that keeps an engine running under 1000 rpm. Personally, I think it's very dangerous."

[Minnesota_Lib]

51. Crashed on approach - hmmm, so did Wellstone.

[Cetacea]

54. Within range. n/t

[certainot]

70. so did samantha smith-- see above

[libertypirate]

56. The on the job apologist are starting to make my christmas dinner

come back to haunt my screen.

Just so you all get reality we IT peoples have the keys to everything. And I mean everything, like all the data, where it is and how to get it back when people pretend that the evidence of their crimes has vanished like a fart in the wind. So when the guy who can get to the dirt drops out of the air, I call it foul play. Bush & Cheney have earned the reputation of guilty until proven innocent; there is just too much to let any more go. You apologist are just pissing into the wind at this point.

If the NTSB is going to wrap up its report before the Bush & Cheney terrorist organization leaves office, it's likely a cover-up. Like they did with Cheney's most notable moment all the facts will be boxed around the story that they want the rest of the world to pretend what happened. Same with anthrax, Iraq, Pakistan, Katrina, and of course that gay male prostitute sidelining as a reporter. This is the short list.

Unfortunately the myopic apologist are the drag queens of conjecture!!!

[mirrera]

57. Hear Hear!!!!

Thank you. These coincidence theorists amaze me. Anyone following the Spoonamore/Connell story should think guilty until proven innocent.

[WinstonSmith4740]

62. This whole thing has bothered me since Day 1

I keep flashing back to the Paul Wellstone crash, as have a lot of you, I'm sure. There are just too many eerie similarities for me...on final approach to land, the same initial confusion; It was weather! No, it was mechanical failure! No, it was pilot error! The whole thing just has Karl Rove all over it. :mad:

[libertypirate]

63. Add the one reality we know about these people...

Complete lack of imagination, they run on conventional wisdom because they are afraid of new ideas. And really freaked about getting caught, so they have to do what they know works. They are afraid of people who think outside the little world they have boxed themselves into. I wouldn't give shitflower that much credit.

[ogneopasno]

65. The things is, though...don't you think that if "Rove" had anything to do with either of them,

he would have learned from the confusion of the Wellstone crash?

[libertypirate]

66. They don't learn, everything is scripted and confusion is not a

bad thing when knowledge is power. Especially the knowledge of what really happened.

[Fireweed247]

71. K&R

It is so freaking obvious what went on here, it would be so nice if one of these times the evidence would be so obvious that these bastards are finally thrown in prison.

[leftchick]

72. I was just watching the interview with Patty Sharaf

maker of the film Murder, Spies and Voting Lies. Have you met her Larissa?

http://www.votinglies.com/


Then I read her take on Mike Connell here.....

Speaking of Mike Connell, how does his sudden death tie in?
As you know, Connell was killed in a mysterious solo plane crash last Friday night. How convenient this is for Karl Rove and George Bush! Connell was starting to spill the beans. We have learned that Rove wanted Connell to take the fall for the criminal enterprise known as Bush's election victory. To have this happening right before our eyes, all but unnoticed by the media, is just like 2004, when the press ignored the exit polls. The New York Times, ABC News, even the Huffington Post, all covered Mike Connell's demise so superficially. If it weren't for Velvet Revolution, Bradblog, and Raw Story, we would have no understanding of the significance of this man's demise. What a travesty!

Ohio attorney Cliff Arnebeck is featured in my film. He has been trying to discover why, on the night of the 2004 presidential election, Ohio's vote tabulation had to run through a server in Tennessee before being officially reported. That server, operated by Connell in Chattanooga, also housed Rove's missing White House email accounts, and a long list of neo-con websites. Do you smell a rat?

Back in July, Arnebeck sought protection for Connell and his family. But nothing was done, and the man is now dead. Will we ever find the missing White House emails that could damn George W. Bush and Karl Rove to hell, or at least the federal penitentiary for conspiring to steal elections and subvert the justice department?

This makes Watergate look like child's play.

Wow! Thank you for speaking with me, Patty. I wish you great success in getting your film of Curtis’s story more widely circulated.
***

Watch the terrific Al Jazeera interview with Clint Curtis and Brad Friedman in its entirety, see the trailer for MSVL, and get the DVD at VotingLies.com.


http://www.opednews.com/articles/-Murder-Spies--Voting-Li-by-Joan-Brunwasser-081225-962.html


I smell a thousand fucking rats. :grr:

[lala_rawraw]

74. No, I don't believe I have

[landdolphin]

78. BINGO - Missing emails - that's the trail to follow me thinks

Leftchick, appreciate your post and would like to see the flick. I think you hit the nail on the head with mention of the missing emails. According to details revealed in two blog post by frequent ABC freelance Producer Rebecca Abrahams <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rebecca-abrahams/white-house-email-trail-g_b_152965.html> and <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rebecca-abrahams/white-house-emails-the-mi_b_136653.html> Connell asked Cyber Security expert Stephen Spoonamore about how digital trails might be erased or covered up relative to White House email servers at which point said, "If you are asking about what I think you are asking about then this meeting is over." Spoonamore has revealed his notes taken shortly after the meeting and Abrahams reproduces them here. This meeting happened on October 11 2006. (Interesting to note that the period of missing emails is from March 2003 until October 2006).

All this takes on much more importance given the fact that the transference of mucho terrabytes of email from the Bush admin to the National Archives is being held up. It's a Lockheed Martin contract if you can believe it. Reported on recently by the Washington Post. $67.5 million worth. One must wonder who Connell was meeting with in DC on Thursday or Friday last week. And if he might have been doing some work on the side back in October 2006 when he was sitting in Spoonamore's office asking about how to cover-up email trails.

Hope this aids in the ongoing investigation and folks who might know answers come forward and fill in the blanks.

[Divine Discontent]

79. someone needs to ask B*sh or others about his death seeking condolences

and see what they say - they probably haven't been asked. I find it interesting not even the RNC has said anything - that's pretty damn odd! They should have put out a press release - you're right - it's days before Christmas and this family lost their dad/husband - and NOTHING is said? hmmmmmm "pretty sneaky, sis!"

They did it of course, we all know deep down, it's too perfect for them - he was going to give info to authorities it appears.

[Jambalaya]

80. This story doesn't fly

The early issue of Connell running out of fuel could have been disproved from receipts from purchasing fuel prior to take off....or from an account he may have had at the airport. But that paper trail could have indicated how much fuel he was carrying, and what time the plane was fueled and by whom. The issue of the vacant house nags at me. Was this a bank repo? I would be curious how long it had been vacant. Good place to operate a device from,if one is into that possibility.

[libertypirate]

81. See then this stuff starts...

Now it starts sounding kind of like throwing darts in the dark.

Dude you can send a signal from any cell tower. :) Any signal repeater for that matter... Does it even matter? Perhaps the transponder signal for the landing strip was fucked with. Now who would be the person who is in charge of that?

[annm4peace]

85. similar to Wellstone's crash?

Fetzer also noted that Wellstone's plane was "exceptional, the pilots well-qualified, and the weather posed no significant problems." He wrote that "we have to consider other, less palatable, alternatives, such as small bombs, gas canisters or electromagnetic pulse, radio frequency or High Energy Radio Frequency weapons designed to overwhelm electrical circuitry with an intense electromagnetic field. An abrupt cessation of communication between the plane and the tower took place at about 10:18 a.m., the same time an odd cell phone phenomenon occurred with a driver in the immediate vicinity. This suggests to me the most likely explanation is that one of our new electromagnetic weapons was employed."

Michael Ruppert, publisher of From the Wilderness, wrote that the day after the crash he received a message from a former CIA operative who was familiar with those kinds of assassinations. The message read, "As I said earlier, having played ball with this current crop of reinvigorated old white men, these clowns are nobody to screw around with. There will be a few more strategic accidents. You can be certain of that."

http://www.opednews.com/thoreau1203_wellstone_assassinated.htm

[peacetalksforall]

86. Finally, after reading 85+ messages on this thread and some other threads,

someone is talking about mechanisms. This is where our conversation should be. headed - how will the Republican networks ever talk about vote theft in Ohio and Michael Connell if we don't do homework on the possibilities?

We know that there is a:

Chronological history of deaths - with some of the deaths being people involved in past elections.

An eight year heavily weighted, but untried in court history of vote theft.

Death of the highest ranking IT guy working for the WH, strategists, and the RNC.

Statement by Connell saying his involvement is rationalized by believing a win for Bush was a way to protect against abortions.

Connell owned the company in Tennessee (private Republican for all purposes) through which Ohio votes were _________________ (verified, laundered-washed, manipulated, stolen, eaten and regurgitated).

This is no ordinary death given the connections.

Does the Fetzer work on Wellstone include all the toys that could be used to fail or cough an engine? Why isn't this talked about here? Everyone afraid to take the beating of the forum controllers who don't work on behalf of DU?

Magnetism? In part or whole

We need crime investigators on the scene, the airport, and in Washington- not just the NTSB and FBI, especially not just the Republican FBI. The CIA shouldn't be there at all nor the State Depts ever lovin' Blackwater.

The NTSB is obsessed by the aircraft and environment and communications with the tower, plus boxes when there are some. The fact that the dead man was part of the crimes that need to be kept secret by this administration won't involve the NTSB. The legacy will be devastated if vote fraud is officially exposed - many intelligent Republicans don't like vote meddling.

A crime investigation should already be underway instead of pussy footing through a year of study by the NTSB only.

In the last four years there has been constant torture and rendition, bombings, kids and kid-soldiers with no immune system, no peace of mind, no limbs, no organs, no life, no money and we have a rape of the citizens by citizens, and the momentum of pensions and investments wiped out, families turned out of their homes, the rise of religion in government, disastrous foreign respect. This Connell man aided and abetted these political and personal crimes. It's now time to see if he was a crime victim.

Now, is another time to haunt the networks and newspapers to find out if there has been a 'close it down, keep it down' order from the Cheney or the WH.

My vote - my most precious possession.

Put me down as suspicious and tell me where the conspiracy exchanges are being covered technically.

[libertypirate]

88. I don't think they need to mess with the airplane to get pilot error

My Earlier Post :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4717180#4721964

On most installations marker beacons operating at a carrier frequency of 75 MHz are provided. When the transmission from a marker beacon is received it activates an indicator on the pilot's instrument panel and the tone of the beacon is audible to the pilot. The distance from the runway at which this indication should be received is promulgated in the documentation for that approach, together with the height at which the aircraft should be if correctly established on the ILS.


The beacon signal is audible Morse code transmitting on a well known frequency. The pilot is notified to begin their decent when they reach this beacon. If the beacon signal is early the airplane will start its decent before it should and land short of the runway. As well the ILS frequencies for altitude could be spoofed making the pilot believe their altitude is something it is not. This not a feet of radio signal engineering, I am not an expert but I bet most programmable radios that are capable of producing Morse code would be enough.

Although similar effect of landing short of the runway at steep approach if the plane never receives the signal to stop rapid decent.

[OnTheOtherHand]

91. no, we don't know several of these things

Perhaps you can fill in some of the gaps.

"Chronological history of deaths - with some of the deaths being people involved in past elections." Of course there's a "chronological history of deaths," but I haven't seen a disciplined argument that the history is unusual.

"An eight year heavily weighted, but untried in court history of vote theft." A heavily weighted history of vote theft? I don't even know what that means. All too often, when I ask people to support their broad claims about vote theft, they spend a few comments pasting links that I've already read, and then accuse me of being lazy (or complicit). Hey, whatever.

"Death of the highest ranking IT guy working for the WH, strategists, and the RNC." I'm not sure what this means either. I assume there is a line chart somewhere that shows the highest ranking IT guy (or gal) working for the WH, and I doubt it is Connell.

"Statement by Connell saying his involvement is rationalized by believing a win for Bush was a way to protect against abortions." I think I've heard Miller paraphrasing Spoonamore paraphrasing Connell talking about his commitment to save the babies, but I haven't seen a statement where Connell acknowledges doing anything wrong, much less rationalizing it.

"Connell owned the company in Tennessee (private Republican for all purposes) through which Ohio votes were _________________ (verified, laundered-washed, manipulated, stolen, eaten and regurgitated)." I've seen no evidence that the Tennessee server modified Ohio votes in any way whatsoever.

Basically, the people who were already convinced that Connell was important are all agog, the people who never thought Connell was important are not, and so it goes.

[certainot]

93. i see well founded suspicions and speculation

and if you need absolutes it sounds like you'll need to do your own research.

nitpicking is for a full investigation and those shouting "tin foil" give cover to those in power who don't want an investigation, for whatever lazy, nefarious, or fearful reasons. until sabotage of plane is added to the list of why planes with significant political figures go down then death by plane, however sparingly it is used, will continue to change the political landscape and may even intimidate our representatives.

the NTSB itself, for whatever reason, can probably blame pilot error for any crash that might have been caused by sabotage if they take murder off the table to begin with (see samantha smith eg above). and that's one of the reasons planes are so good for this- much of the evidence is destroyed and there are few if any witnesses. citizen pressure must be applied to put the possibility of murder on the table so that the NTSB can't keep covering over these "accidents".

[OnTheOtherHand]

94. yeah, sure you do

But what you present (at least so far) is crap. Which makes you a contributor to the problem you decry -- assuming for the sake of argument that it exists.

[certainot]

95. so you find absolute satisfaction in the catch 22

you want proof but there can be no proof until there is a full investigation but there will be no full investigation because political assassination is not considered. ie. samantha smith's plane was found to have flown an extremely erratic flight path, the altimeters were both reading inaccurately, and the NAV/COM was replaced the day before (for reasons that later turned out to be false), and they basically blamed it on the pilot.

[OnTheOtherHand]

96. you're putting lots of words in my mouth

I explained to you, in considerable detail, some reasons why people are skeptical about the "political assassination" angle from the get go. But if you can't get past the familiar canard that I "want proof but there can be no proof" yadda yadda yadda, so be it.

[certainot]

98. OK, here's an example

here's what you wrote:

""Statement by Connell saying his involvement is rationalized by believing a win for Bush was a way to protect against abortions." I think I've heard Miller paraphrasing Spoonamore paraphrasing Connell talking about his commitment to save the babies, but I haven't seen a statement where Connell acknowledges doing anything wrong, much less rationalizing it."

connell was apparently getting ready to make the statements that may have satisfied you and possible many others but he died in a plane crash.

even if he had made those statements many would have been unsatisfied, if they ever saw the light of day, and if they did many would believe the limbaugh and hannity excuses and rationalizations that would fill the country's airwaves and be repeated for weeks afterwards.

[Wilms]

99. "connell was apparently getting ready to make the statements"

Are you serious?

Worse, you'll condemn another for not sharing your hallucinations?

Do you really want to know why the left gets marginalized, or are you here just to do it?

[OnTheOtherHand]

101. LOL

I was off shoveling snow (old snow -- it's in the 50s now!) and didn't see that you beat me to this.

"Person killed because he knows too much" is right up there with "boy meets girl" as a great story with some archetypal basis in fact (less common, to be sure). In this case, I'm having a hard time making it add up.

[certainot]

104. so is the "mob boss pissed at witness" scenario a movie fiction?

is the witness protection program a fiction? would that program exclude plane sabotage? does the SS keep guard of air force one?

my original point was that death by plane is common- they drop bombs, etc., and when they go down the evidence is often destroyed. to ignore the cheryl seal list of lefty "political problems", http://www.unknownnews.net/cdd1120.html , that were 'solved' by plane, and to ignore the possibility here for someone who "was supposedly" "may have" known the details on election theft and destruction of white house emails because connell didn't already spill the beans in public is absurd.

my point is that the NTSB, especially considering the politicization of govt. in general and the that the current head of the NTSB appears to be a bush nixon guy (see my post -NTSB samantha smith- above), may not investigate this as if assassination is possible unless there is pressure on them to do so. if there is no pressure to investigate foul play until foul play is proven it may never be proven.

if you want to assume there was no foul play, for what ever reason, i figure you'll have the absolute certainty you seek about a year from now when the NTSB does a samantha smith job on connell and cannot find with absolute certainty that someone other than connell himself caused the crash. until death by plane is taken seriously as an assassination method and investigated in cases like this it will continue to be a way to assassinate representatives/senators and intimidate them and get away with it. at this point to assume wellstone and carnahan's deaths were both coincidences is silly. but to say rove ordered it is also silly.

i gave you an example (samantha smith above) of evidence that might suggest foul play but the NTSB would never suggest that. considering the history, regardless of whether anyone would assassinate 13 y/o samantha for political reasons, ignoring the possibility of foul play regarding connell requires republican levels of denial and ensures that those who would use that method can keep it handy for special occasions.

[OnTheOtherHand]

108. is "boy meets girl" a movie fiction?

Are you actually this obtuse? or is this just my lucky week?

[certainot]

106. the left is 'marginalized'

because they turned the dial to music and ignored the coordinated uncontested repetition coming out of the GOP talk radio monopoly- possibly the biggest political blunder ever, considering time lost on global warming. progressives have been playing politics without a front line and didn't know it.

but back to the point, see my whole comment in context with my other comments.

[OnTheOtherHand]

100. "connell was apparently getting ready..."

Try reading this from my point of view. It looks like you're moving the goalposts: from an unsubstantiated assertion that Connell had made a particular statement, to an unsubstantiated assertion that Connell was about to make a particular statement.

I'm willing to stipulate that Larisa A. believes that Connell was about to reveal... something. I'm also cognizant that the much-vaunted Election Eve Deposition seems to have revealed nothing. Then there are all the other points I and others have made.

"...many would believe the limbaugh and hannity excuses and rationalizations..." Well, yes. Many people do believe pretty much everything Limbaugh and Hannity say.

[certainot]

105. you moved the goalposts out of the stadium

my reference to connell's statements was only relative to yours

again, here's what you wrote:

""Statement by Connell saying his involvement is rationalized by believing a win for Bush was a way to protect against abortions." I think I've heard Miller paraphrasing Spoonamore paraphrasing Connell talking about his commitment to save the babies, but I haven't seen a statement where Connell acknowledges doing anything wrong, much less rationalizing it."

the way i read that is that unless connell confessed some wrongdoing in a forum available to you, you will not believe he did anything wrong so therefore there is no motive so therefore forget about it.

[OnTheOtherHand]

107. then, with respect, you don't read very well

What I wrote doesn't have to do with whether Connell "did anything wrong," much less any of the other things you 'inferred' from it.

It has to do -- you may want to sit down for this -- with whether Connell made a statement saying his involvement (in what?) is rationalized by believing a win for Bush was a way to protect against abortions.

Really, I can't believe I would have to explain this, and I can hardly believe I bothered.

[certainot]

109. i though 'doing something wrong' referred to his

work in elections and or email for the bush admin, and in the context of this whole discussion that seems quite reasonable- not sure what other interpretation there could be but it wouldn't be the first time i misunderstood.

[OnTheOtherHand]

110. OK, slow down

I haven't expressed any opinion whatsoever on whether Connell did something wrong, or what it would take for me to believe that he did something wrong. I questioned a particular assertion about an alleged Connell statement. I didn't put a Connell admission of wrongdoing on the table as some sort of evidential sine qua non; the poster "higher class" asserted it as something that "we know."

I do think some good reasons have been given for being skeptical that Connell was about to reveal important information about election fraud or anything else. That doesn't mean that I claim to know that he wasn't, or that I oppose a thorough investigation of the crash, or that I'm a charter member of the Denialist League. It does strike me that if people believe that a computer in Tennessee was used to change tens of thousands of votes in Ohio, those people could try to figure out where those votes were changed. The efforts I've seen in that regard have not been very convincing.

[peacetalksforall]

92. Funny how people take the time to post on DU and don't see any reason

to look at sinister alternatives. Congratulations on the purity of the train of thought relative to known histories of intimidation and suspected take-outs. I guess the line that has been drawn is that people in the Republican Party only take out foreigners on foreign lands, never citizens.

At least the 'excuse/explanation' have become more developed than when the the Wellstone aircraft went down. We only got one paragraph or one sentence then, mostly about ice until that excuse had to be switched out.

DU is getting a wash and cleanse job. Or it may be a dry cleaning.

[msfiddlestix]

89. Excellent reporting Larissa

Thanks for posting hissyspit.. :bravo:

[yodoobo]

102. In regards to the propeller

They bend forward if they strike the ground when the engine is under power.
They bend backwards if the strike the ground with the power off.

Investigators look at the propeller damage to see if the engine was still operating. If the propeller was bent backwards, that is evidence that the aircraft lost power.

Neither of these conditions are conclusive as the root cause of the crash, but are very big clues on what to investigate next.

[libertypirate]

111. If you want to quantify how or why something happened then you

have to understand both the conditions that led to failure as well as the gray area used to hide the hands that caused it.

In effect you have to engineer a solution to a problem.