"You guys won. Why are you tearing each other apart"

[Taverner]

Said my Republican neighbor. FTR, he did vote Obama (first Dem vote ever)

Good question

Any takers?

[skooooo]

1. ..

:popcorn:

[NaturalHigh]

39. Could you pass some of that this way?

I'm guessing this will get interesting.

[MindMatter]

43. How about a moratorium on threads about gay rights?

I just don't see why it is necessary for 20-30% of the threads here to be somebody once again expressing some kind of moral outrage or righteous indignation about gay issues.

Yes, we get that gay issues are important.
Yes, we get that Prop-8 is a big disappointment.

But give it a rest. Please.

Obama can't begin to do anything about any of that for another 25 days.

This may come as a shock to some, but there are a great many issues of importance at this moment that have noting to do with sexual preferences. A lot of us fought hard to get Obama elected in order to make a difference on the environment, torture, America's standing in the world, and the sweeping rise of fascism/corporatism in this country. To be really blunt, gay rights don't measure up to those big items in terms of urgency, and swamping this forum with such threads really doesn't help build support for the cause.

[Fenmick]

45. Moritorium? I absolutely & wholeheartedly second the motion.

No one, NO ONE is going to change an opinion, regardless of the number of posts or the passion in them. Next.

[Yukari Yakumo]

55. 'Cause people around here need to b**** and whine about something...

...and Bush is only going to be around for less than a month, but he seems content to do nothing of any importance what-so-ever during that time.

...

Sort of like the last 8 years.

[KittyWampus]

2. It's easier to get angry and stay angry then it is to get angry and then channel that emotion

into constructive action.

Although maintaining a perpetual state of anger takes a lot of freaking energy.

[davidinalameda]

7. we'll just go sit quietly in the back of the bus

maybe we can be your house fags

[KittyWampus]

8. maybe you can start posting some threads proposing something constructive. BTW, your fucked up

insinuation that that I suggested you "go sit quietly in the back of the bus" says volumes about you and your intent.

You conveniently ignored the part in my very short post where I said "channel that anger into constructive action".

It is blatantly obvious you only meant to inflame the conversation. It's obvious you twisted what I said.

Some DU'ers are invested in keeping the anger going and have done jackshit on DU to start or publicize any initiative that would bring about Civil Rights for all.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

17. and that's why I married a gay man, lived with he and his partner for eight years

so they could stay together?

Tell me, how many posts did you log on DU BEFORE November 4th regarding Proposition 8 trying to make sure it didn't pass?

How many have you got under your belt since November 4th about on how to get rid of Prop. 8 since it has passed?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NJmaverick]

25. It's clear from your posts, that you don't give a shit about ANY PEOPLE

that hate has consumed you and destroyed you. You are simply lashing out trying to hurt everyone and anyone.

[KittyWampus]

34. family members know exactly what buttons to push to piss each other off. And often lash out

at those they love most.

[Jester Messiah]

46. Seconded.

Dude needs some anger management courses. Or maybe he just enjoys the drama.

[Taverner]

15. This person would rather fight us than Prop H8

Just tell them where to sign up for the circular firing squad

[EFerrari]

21. Do you mean, the poster expects more from DU than from Prop H8ers?

Shouldn't he or, are you putting that fantasy out of its misery?

Thanks for posting a thread comparing DUers to Republicans gratuitously, though. Maybe you should figure out your own place in that circle.

[Taverner]

30. My place is fighting hate

Your place is obviously fighting me, although what I did to wrong you, fuck only knows... :eyes:

[EFerrari]

31. "This person would rather fight us than Prop H8

Just tell them where to sign up for the circular firing squad".

You're place is fighting hate? Really?

[Taverner]

35. Well they are

And I am

pointing out when a poster is being an ass and attacking DU rather than the people who are responsible is not hating

Well, unless you say it is, in which case I refuse to defer to your subjective delusion

[Taverner]

13. Point missed completely

OK, Obama and Rick Warren - which has said publically they want to strip you of your rights?

Ding ding ding! You got it - RICK WARREN

Ok - now what piece of policy is stripping you of your rights - is is Prop H8 or the Rick Warren invocation?


DING DING DING you win $1000!

Yes, the enemy is not me, nor Obama

Yes, I'm just as pissed as you about the prayer

But I don't get mad at the Nazis by whacking my entire platoon./

[The Doctor.]

38. It also warps perceptions until one sees their friends as enemies

and insults and persecution where there is none.

It's been an interesting study, incidentally.

[NaturalHigh]

40. I wish I could rec your reply.

[NMDemDist2]

3. what gave him that impression I wonder?

I know DU has been in flames, what made your neighbor think that?

We don't walk in lockstep, we all have our opinions on what is top priority.

[Two Americas]

50. perhaps...

Perhaps the OP "primed the pump" a little with his neighbor?

[EFerrari]

4. Does your neighbor need to be introduced to the idea of debate?

Being a Republican and all?

[NMDemDist2]

6. ROFL, GMTA

see my response above

:hi:

[davidinalameda]

5. what did "we" win

I know that I lost my right to get married

other than that, I didn't win squat

[Taverner]

14. Yes you did

But your right to marry wasn't the only thing on the books this year

And if you were really mad about losing that right, if you really were mad instead of wanting to bloviate publically to those you deem unpure, you'd FIGHT PROP H8 like I am.

[EFerrari]

22. So, Kreskin, how do you know what this poster is doing?

Or, is the eggnog just too good today?

[KittyWampus]

33. If what they are posting on DU is any indication.... Maybe it's not. But it'd be nice to see

some posters get PRO-ACTIVE.

And the fact they aren't getting pro-active on DU does leave a certain, understandable impression.

[Taverner]

37. Eggggsactly

[tinrobot]

52. Is marriage the only issue you voted for?

You didn't also vote for change in economic policies, an end to the war, a woman's right to choose, the environment, and more?

If all you voted for was the right to marry, then I'm very sorry you "didn't win squat."

[Bucky]

9. Only a Republican would think questioning an elected leader's decision is "tearing him apart"

Remind your friend that dissent is not disloyalty and vigorous disagreement is the soul of democracy.

As a Republican he may not be able to grasp this. But as Democrats, we don't just pick a leader to follow blindly. We pick the best qualified man or woman to run the show, but still reserve the right to argue about things they may have done wrong.

[dkf]

23. But its more than questioning him, its rejecting him too.

I'm an agnostic. Shouldn't I be enraged they got a preacher period? I could be.

[Bucky]

41. It's an argument you've been losing since 1789.

Public prayers have been part of the inauguration of presidents since we've had a Constitution. If that's an outrage, I would at least think that your passion might have simmered down a bit in the last 220 years.

[Captain Hilts]

10. Because choosing Warren insults the people that got Obama elected. nt

[Taverner]

16. Well yeah, I never said it was a one way street

[Yukari Yakumo]

56. Really? Specifically who? {nt}

[Toasterlad]

12. What Did "We" Win?

[Warpy]

18. Lacking an organized left wing media

to hand us all our opinions, we had to develop some of them for ourselves.

That means we differ.

However, we did beat the hell out of people who march in lockstep to the fascist drumbeat.

[Oak2004]

19. Because progressives didn't win

We supported something better than a militaristic reactionary ticket, and the better ticket won. But that ticket was not a progressive ticket.

The world isn't divided into two sides. It has many facets. I doubt more than a few people here, given a chance to replay the election, would change their vote. But if Obama thinks he should, or will, be free of criticism from progressives, he is sadly mistaken.

[RetroLounge]

24. Maybe you should answer the question instead.

Instead of just posting for a Republican by-proxy.

As far as I am concerned, we've won nothing.

Not. A. Damn. Thing.

If my GLBT friends can't have every single right that I have, then we as progresives have won nothing.

And I cannot celebrate a hollow victory.

You deny any minority their rights, we all lose in the long run.

RL

[Tuesday Afternoon]

26. Business as usual ...SNAFU

carry on with shenanigans :patriot:

[NJmaverick]

27. Success and victory can often be more difficult to deal with, than the fight

after all our hatred of what George Bush stood for and did to our nation, united us. We have defeated that and now there is less to unite us. With out a common enemy it's more difficult for unity to exist, especially in a diverse a coalition of people that make up DU.

[Two Americas]

54. same cause

We are now hearing and refuting the same arguments, the same rationales, and the same talking points that we were hearing and refuting during the Bush years. We can not be expected to suddenly have a different reaction just because we are hearing those arguments from people who call themselves Democrats than we did when we heard them from people calling themselves Republicans.

The question we are being asked is this: "will you now accept reactionary and conservative ideas, if Democrats instead of Republicans say them?"

The answer to that question is "no."

The answer is simply "no." I cannot believe that anyone is surprised by this, or expected anything different.

The conservatives among us have the money and the power on their side - it is always easier to defend the status quo, to fall in line behind the wealthy and powerful, to be obedient to the rulers, to be on the "winning" side, in thoughts, speech and action.

We may lose, and you may win - you have all of the advantages - but we have the right to speak out.

Rather than attacking people for what their exercise of freedom of speech may be doing to "hurt the cause;" rather than speculating on their motives and engaging in character assassination; rather than criticizing them because of the supposed negative effect that the expression of their opinions will have - rather than that ongoing ad hominem line of attack, why not have the courage and honesty to defend and support your point of view? Attacking others - the messengers, not the message - is not a point of view, it is a propaganda tactic.

[Orrex]

28. I'm angry because my family give me an Xbox box stuffed full of shirts

Tell me that wouldn't piss you off.

[Buzz Clik]

29. Gratefully, only the splinter segments are at war. No one else gives a shit.

[ZombieHorde]

32. We are not tearing each other apart.

We are debating details.

[Taverner]

36. Some of us are

And the posts I've seen you in definitely debating details

But there are those (here) who think any support of Obama at this stage is proof you are a homophobe

Give me a fucking break

I've lost count of how many GLBT DUers have been called homophobes because they don't want to start impeaching Obama now

Yes, I am engaging in hyperbole to make a point

[tomp]

42. perhaps because some of us know the difference...

...between a party or a candidate winning and the people winning.

[unblock]

44. "we're democrats! that's what we do!"

[gollygee]

47. One of the things I like about us

is that we don't have this stupid "I won't speak out against a member of our party no matter what they do" attitude.

[deaniac21]

48. What does a republican know?

[Bodhi BloodWave]

49. Seemingly more then some Dems in this case n/t

[BeFree]

51. Why?

'Cuz that's what we do best.

We tore Al gore a new one, and he got ripped off because we didn't get behind him solidly, allowing bush to steal a few votes and become president.

We tore Carter a new one and abandoned him letting reagan become president.

Sad but true.

[bvar22]

53. "You guys won"

If you think the Warren thing is bad, wait until Obama starts escalating the WAR in Afghanistan.
THEN, the shit will fly.

I stand in solidarity with those LOUDLY opposing the selection of Warren as "America's Pastor".

The easy part was getting Obama elected.

[Selatius]

57. Simple answer:

The Democratic Party is not really a functioning party in any true sense of the word. The voting system the US has, SMDP (single-member district plurality), tends to run into "Duverger's Law," which is an observation that such voting systems tend to favor only two parties becoming "viable." Third parties act as spoilers in many cases.

Result? People who disagree with each other are forced into the same party structure. In parliamentary systems seen in Europe and elsewhere, these people would rather form their own parties, and then they'd barter and bargain once their own house is in order. The Democratic Party is perpetually stuck in the phase of "getting their house in order." For change to occur, you must have a very strong leader who can either coerce or convince people to do things they may disagree with. LBJ was a good example.

The Democratic Party is basically a coalition of disparate interests with different goals that sometimes conflict with each other. Just because the Democratic Party holds majorities in both houses and the White House does not mean things will automatically get done. Right wing Democrats can just as easily sink proposals like universal health care as much as any Republican filibuster could, for instance.

[earth mom]

58. You should have told him it's because the dem party has been stolen by the DINOs.

:grr:

[JohnnieGordon]

59. If there's going to be a movement to run a more progressive candidate against him in '12..

In the Dem primaries, I see no reason for that not to start now. The left needs all the time it has to gather it's forces. Obama's safely elected, he doesn't need all of us cheerleading him, he'll do whatever he wants whether we like it or not.