Naked Man Dies After Deputies Taser Him 4 Times

[babylonsister]

Naked Man Dies After Deputies Stun Him 4 Times
Last Edited: Wednesday, 24 Dec 2008, 3:40 PM CST


HOUSTON -- A naked man who was wandering a northwest Harris County apartment complex died at a hospital after two deputies trying to control him fired their stun guns, officials said.

Dispatchers received several calls early Wednesday morning from residents at an apartment complex in the 200 block of Dominion Park Drive complaining about a nude man wandering the area, yelling and pounding on doors and vehicle windows, according to an official Harris County Sheriff's Office statement. One person said the man had kicked in the door to her apartment and wandered inside for a few moments before leaving.

When the first deputy responded to the scene, the man climbed into the passenger seat of the officer's vehicle, according to the statement. The man began swinging his fists and kicking the deputy after he was told to exit the car.

The deputy then fired his Taser gun, and the suspect left the car and removed the Taser probes, according to the statement. When the deputy continued to make commands, the man increased his physical resistance, so the deputy stunned the man again.

more...

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=8139860&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

[Warpy]

1. The guy was out of control and a threat to physcial safety

and now the whole thing is being investigated.

It sounds like the taser was used appropriately in this case.

It would be preferable if every discharge of a taser was investigated as a matter of course, and not just after the death of a suspect.

Too many cops have confused it with a tranquilizer and use it inappropriately.

However, it doesn't seem to be the case here.

[w4rma]

2. Agreed. Sounds appropriate. (nt)

[Sanity Claws]

3. I'm not ready to conclude that

I read the story and it looks like they had a single deputy respond to the call. The deputy was by himself when the guy got into the car and then demanded the guy exit the car. Why did he do that when he didn't have back up yet?
It seems that the sheriff's office is relying on a taser to do the job of a back up officer.
I did read that a second deputy came to the scene but it looks like things had progressed pretty far by then.

[MercutioATC]

5. The economy has hit law enforcement, too.

There isn't always timely backup available.

I'm all for more rigorous training in taser use, but I think that they generally get more criticism than they deserve. Tasers are a "less-lethal" tool, much as the PR-24 (nightstick) was...but without the concussion. They serve a useful role.

[pop goes the weasel]

24. cut backs in social services cause this

When mental health responders are cut out, their work is farmed off to the police. The police have a lot of training, but it is not in dealing with health crises. We are using prisons as mental health institutions, law officers as nurses and therapists, and we get the result we should expect. The shame is ours as a nation.

[MercutioATC]

46. I agree, at least in part.

100% with as far as you took it...however, their are situations that require law enforcement.

It's important to realize that once a person becomes resistant to instruction and is perceived to be a threat to themself or others, law enforcement may have a legitimate place in the situation.

[pop goes the weasel]

48. you shouldn't have so many of these situations

Really, it is because we taxpayers are such cheapskates that so many people who have medical or mental health problems end up being dealt with by law officers instead of being able to avert the crisis.

My daughter used to work on a mental health hotline, back when the city funded it. She would spend hours on a single call, talking someone through a paranoid delusion that they had recognized as it was coming on (she could quietly call for a police response if they were needed, but she never had to make that call in over a year). Mental health funding was slashed, and instead of people being able to peacefully and responsibly seek minor help, they are told now to go to the clinic. And if they can't get there themselves (and they shouldn't! Who wants someone having a psychotic break driving or even riding the bus?), the police are sent to get them, to take them to a place that they don't want to be and will likely be resisting by the time the cops show up. Smart budgeting move, eh, replacing a $10/hr college student social worker with a police officer or two, their cars, a clinic, nurses, doctors, and in-patient facilities?

You guys deal with enough stress already without having every other social service thrown in your hands. It's no wonder there are cops who lose their initial idealism when they have so much mission creep going on. It's no wonder some officers quickly resort to tasers rather than spend hours talking someone down, when they are short-staffed themselves and know that while Bubba is running around nekkid and uncomprehending, some real creep is getting away.

[MercutioATC]

49. That was me 20 years ago...and I was a dispatcher, not a road Deputy.

...but I'd ride along almost every night from 11:00pm until about 3:00am, so I got to see a lot.

You're right about law enforcement having to deal with more people that should be taken care of through other social services. However, I don't believe they use the taser to be expeditious...they use it because it's the most effective and safest way of subduing somebody.

[EFerrari]

12. What kind of a threat is one naked guy? It's not like he could be hiding

a suicide belt or an automatic weapon.

So sad.

[Pastiche423]

28. My 1st reaction - the dude was NAKED!

If the 1st deputy could not subdue a NAKED man (and most likely ill), then he is too much of a weinie to carry a badge, muchless anything else.

To the poster downthread that stated that diabetics often wear a medical ID. I am diabetic and have never heard of any diabetic wearing one. My grandfather that eventually died from complications of diabetes and lived to be 90 years old did not. My father who is diabetic does not. Six friends of mine are diabetic and do not wear one.

I do own a medical id bracelet for a seizure disorder, though.

Cops can and do beat the crap out of protesters, yet weinie out on a NAKED man.

Disgusting.

[Warpy]

29. The guy was wild.

I was an RN and I'd suggest that people who haven't dealt with folks who've gone off the rails and gone batshit crazy violent might want to reconsider what the cops were up against.

Remember, the alternative to a taser used to be a couple of rounds in the chest.

[anigbrowl]

59. Mmm, I have and I'm still not impressed with the cop.

This includes both hospital work and dealing with people on drugs. I only weigh about 130 but with some training it's not that hard to offset someone physical strength, even if it's enhanced for whatever reason.

[Cid_B]

60. Not to mention the part...

... where the guy pulled the probes out of his chest. I hate it when that happens.

Sounds clean to me on its face.

[originalpckelly]

38. Big threat, to resist after being stunned means he was on a dissociative drug of some kind....PCP

Angel Dust will make you totally fucking insane and capable of immense feats of strength, the man was obviously extremely dangerous.

[anigbrowl]

58. So? Two deputies can't restrain a naked unarmed guy? Whatever.

Sorry, if a cop says he needs to use a taser in that situation he's incompetent.

[L0oniX]

4. Police brutality ...the fun part of law enforcement.

:evilfrown:

[MercutioATC]

6. Fine. The next time, the Deputy can just beat the guy into submission with his PR-24.

Look, restraining a suspect is not always "police brutality".

I'd suggest that you look for a "ride-along" program where you live. It might give you a different perspective.

[babylonsister]

7. He'd probably rather be restrained than dead. He wasn't concealing. nt

[MercutioATC]

9. The odds of the taser killing him were miniscule.

The odds of him being hospitalized from being subdued were much greater.

Again...see if you can do a ride-along. People are great at suggesting ways to subdue unruly people until they actually experience it.

The outcome was unfortunate. More taser training might have helped, it might not have...but I'm still in favor of more advanced training.

...but from the story, it sounds like this Deputy did the right thing.

[EFerrari]

13. People can be very dangerous. And offing someone is not "restraint".

And before you start in on me, I "restrained" a psychotic acting out spouse that had 175 pounds and a foot of height on me for more than ten years so just save it.

[MercutioATC]

16. You don't see a difference between using a taser in an approved manner and "offing" someone?

Tasers occasionally kill people. Yes, that sucks.

We can decrease occurrences like this by providing better taser training to law enforcement and studying if there is a way to make an effective but safer device.


Still, a taser is an effective less-lethal method of subduing somebody...and it's better than the alternatives.

[EFerrari]

21. Doesn't it seem to you that there are too many of these stories

to read and too often?

I'm 100% behind being safe when dealing with out of control people. But, that's not what we're seeing here, imo.

[MercutioATC]

35. Tasers are media darlings.

I'd posit the following:

1) You always hear about the tasings that go wrong, but almost never about the vast majority that are routine.

2) You almost never hear about the injuries to a suspect that's physically subdued by other means (oh, they happen...you just don't hear about it).


I agree that tasers are occasionally used in extremely inappropriate situations. That's a training/compliance issue. More intensive training (of which I'm an advocate) would help.

That said, tasers are a tool...and a damned good tool when used properly. There is room for improvement, but a taser is a much better alternative to less modern methods of control.

[L0oniX]

17. I suggest you face the reality of the real world. My uncle is a city police captain and

my cousin is a county sheriff and I know what their attitude is. My cousin told me he became a cop so as to get back at society for sending him to Vietnam. Mean while local cops here have knee'd 2 homeless men to death and they got away with it ...and there's much more. I've seen enough of their brutality from the Chicago Democratic convention to the Berkley riots back when I used to live in Haight Ashberry. I've seen what cops do when they think they are not being watched or recorded. I will keep my opinion of cops as it is.

[MercutioATC]

37. You're right. There are bad cops. I've worked with a few.

There's also those for whom it's just a job. They obey the rules, arrest people/write tickets/fill out paperwork and then go home.

...and then there's those that see it as more than just a job. They actually enjoy helping people.


Thinking that all cops are bad (or good) is as silly as thinking that all insurance salesmen are bad (or good). People are people. There are bad cops, but there are also a lot of really good ones.

[L0oniX]

61. If a cop is ordered to do something they will do it even if it goes against the will of the people.

It is our duty to protest and dissent and commit civil disobedience against those who seek to circumvent our constitutional and human rights. The cops are used to stop us and they shoot us with bean bags and rubber bullets, that makes them my enemy. What they did in Seattle was wrong. What they did in Miami was wrong. The even laughed at the lady they shot in Miami and they got caught doing it. It made the news. It don't matter though cause there's no way they will be there to protect me against a home invasion. I am left to protect my wife and myself on my own. It don't matter if a law is morally wrong ...they will enforce it. I've seen people get 20 years for getting caught with one joint. They might as well have machine gunned down everyone and then surrender and plead temp insanity. It comes down to what a person has experienced from law enforcement and from my experiences I will never trust the cops or prosecutors. Thank God for groups like Cop Watch and people who take the time to observe and record police action, it's about the only check they have.

[Quantess]

8. I wonder what his problem was?

Drugs, or mental illness? I'm guessing drugs, which could have made him more susceptible to heart attack.

[IDemo]

10. Also may have been in diabetic insulin shock

As has been the case in a couple of recent taser incidents.

[MercutioATC]

11. Not just "taser incidents". Cops have been arresting diabetic "drunks" for decades.

It's impossible to distinguish between insulin shock and intoxication without advanced training.

[undeterred]

15. It doesn't have to be that advanced.

Diabetics often wear medical ids and don't smell like alcohol.

[MercutioATC]

19. Ok, YOU check for a bracelet on a flailing "drunk" in the middle of winter...

...and plenty of impaired (and potentially violent) people don't smell of alcohol.


You make it sound as if this Deputy just decided to use lethal force to subdue somebody in diabetic shock.

[EFerrari]

22. People who are bigger weenies than I was at 12 shouldn't be cops, then.

I dealt with a flailing drunk year round. We called her "Mom" and she never pulled her punches.

You don't have to use a weapon if you have the sense God gives a 12 year old. Do you have any idea how many drunks are handled every day by their family without tasers?

[MercutioATC]

31. There's no good response to this post.

A law enforcement professional can't deal with a drunk the same way the 12-year-old kid of an alcoholic does.

I get your point, but I don't think you've considered the differences.

[undeterred]

26. My dad was a diabetic and the behavior is different

than a drunk. I could tell the difference.

[MercutioATC]

30. Maybe it was with him. Often times it's not.

I've observed it firsthand from a law enforcement standpoint and I can say that it's usually indistinguishable.

[undeterred]

32. I'm glad my father never got sick around you.

[MercutioATC]

34. Right. I'd have killed him because I was a dumb "law enforcement" type.

Look, I'm telling you that you may have been able to tell the difference and/or your father may have manifested differently.

Most people in diabetic shock appear to be drunk. To compound the issue, they're not receptive to instructions (which is indistinguishable from being unwilling to comply with instructons).

Most diabetics don't wear any ID that identifies them as a diabetic. If they do, it's frequently covered by clothing.


It's a bit more complicated than you seem to think.

[undeterred]

36. There is no excuse for killing a drunk or a diabetic.

[MercutioATC]

39. Fine. YOU made the grossly general statement. Let's explore it.

If the drunk was an irate ex-husband with a gun in his hand and he was trying to shoot his ex-wife, would killing him be justified?

(remember, you said "There is no excuse for killing a drunk...")


There's more, but let's take this step by step.

[undeterred]

40. Merry Christmas

and Happy New Year

[MercutioATC]

42. Back at ya!

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just think your statement is a little off base.


Regardless, have a happy holiday :)

[IDemo]

18. Well, or one of these:

but you would also need someone who is at least compliant enough to allow a finger-stick and a droplet of blood.
Pretty unlikely when the adrenaline is flowing (I can testify :hi:)

[originalpckelly]

44. 10 to 1 it's PCP.

Just sounds like it.

[Shardik]

14. Well, like earlier posters, I agree. He was nekkid and rowdy. Deserved to die.

:sarcasm:

Goddamnit. Tasers kill a small percentage of people that they are used on. 400 and counting so far. I know, there's a billy club/gun alternative argument, but there is also a tackling and subduing alternative as well. The taser is a step to laziness for cops and a way to stay away from a black eye or bruised lip for the officer.

We cannot continue to defend this barbaric "non-lethal" weapon. t is NOT non-lethal.

[gratuitous]

20. Not to mention

We have the officer's side of the story, for sure. I wonder what the decedent's account might be? Hmmm, doesn't seem to be included for some reason.

[MercutioATC]

45. You've never worked in law enforcement have you?

...or as a bouncer or as an ER health care worker or paramedic or any one of a number of jobs that would have exposed you to violent drunks firsthand...

Cops use tasers because they're "lazy" and want to "stay away from a black eye or bruised lip"???


Your opinion might change if you spent some time directly experiencing this.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

23. In the Old Days he woulda been shot. Here they at least used non-lethal weapons

Death from a taser indicates other conditions: like a heart so stressed with massive doses of drugs in its system that a taser shock was more than it could handle.

I'm not calling police brutality.
At least they gave him a chance when they used non-lethal weapons.

[Shardik]

25. Bullshit.

In the "old days" they would have gang tackled him and put him in restraints.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

27. El Toro de PooPoo. There were only two guys here.

If you get someone all hepped up on drugs its gonna take a lot more than two people to subdue him.

Clues:
1) The guys is nekid
2) he is incoherent
3) he gets aggressive when the cops arrive

The cops did right this time.

[Shardik]

33. OK, A naked, incoherant man should be taken down by a possibly lethal weapon

rather than the officers getting their hands dirty which results in the death of a mentally ill human?

I hope you're not a cop.

[tblue37]

41. Wouldn't that be poopoo del toro--or even more likely,

caca del toro, or mierda del toro?

[spindrifter]

43. This is all too common.

Many of these individuals are high on drugs--sherm, PCP, rock cocaine. They are in a psychotic state, often reaching for a cop's gun, and the stun guns kill them. I recognize that in most situations these guys require several physically fit cops to contain them, but it would probably be a good idea for someone to figure out some way to quickly pacify them. One suggestion--let the cops trying to pacify these guys take their freaking weapons off so the situation doesn't get uglier. Another suggestion--there must be some sort of negotiating team that can calm them down a notch or two.

[MercutioATC]

47. Lemme get this straight. You want the cops to drop their guns and negotiate with somebody on PCP??

What color is the sky on your planet???

[dems_rightnow]

51. Damned amazing, isn't it?

LOL

[spindrifter]

52. I've dealt with the aftermath of a lot of these

incdents. So yes, rather than get the cop killed, which is what happens too often when the freaked out guy gets the cop's gun, I'd rather they took the gun out of the picture.

[MercutioATC]

53. Yeah, and I've seen LEO video of a guy on PCP shot 41 times who kept coming.

Yes, I know...my first thought was "bad shot placement".


The fact remains that if a man on PCP can be shot multiple times and continue to pose a threat, disarming officers is the LAST thing you want to do.

Suppose that person loses interest in the officer and decides that a child nearby is more deserving of their attention. What does a disarmed officer do then? Where IS that gun? Are you advocating having unarmed police or would they take the gun off under circumstances and put it somewhere? Where would they put it? How would they get it back if the situation changed and they needed it?

If your idea was to be adopted, there would need to be a written procedure detailing how it works. Show me the procedure.

A lot of things might sound nice in theory. Since you made the suggestion, I'm asking you to describe the real-life process.

[spindrifter]

54. I stand by what I said. You have your opinion. I have mine.

[MercutioATC]

55. Fair enough.

I'd encourage yu to do a ride-along if they're available where you live, though. It may give you a different perspective.

[spindrifter]

56. As I said, my opinion is based on my experience with the

aftermath of these incidents.

[MercutioATC]

57. I'm just suggesting that experiencing the actual incident might give you some new insights.

Either way, you're right. We simply view the issue from different perspectives and have drawn different conclusions.

[lelgt60]

50. I'm going to invoke the Golden Rule

Personally, I would prefer to take my chances with the Taser to a night stick or gun. I hate getting shot.

But, that's just me.