NY Gov. Patterson's Tax Plans Are A Stupid Idea and They Will Hurt Working Class NYers

[Yavin4]

Slapping sales taxes on clothing, movies, soda, beer, cab rides, cable, haircuts, etc. in an economic downturn is probably the most idiotic idea that I have ever heard. These taxes are regressive, and they will hurt the working class of NY, who will in turn cut back on their spending, and thus put even more people out of work.

People will go to New Jersey to buy clothes (no sales tax on clothes). People will cut their own hair. People won't buy beer or sodas which will hurt bars and convenience stores. Make items more expensive and people will buy less which will put more people out of work. The number one industry in NY is the service sector.

The state has a bloated bureaucracy. There are a myriad of programs that should be discontinued first before taxes are raised, and if you must raise taxes then it should be on the multi-million dollar condos all over NYC.

[madinmaryland]

1. It's hard to believe a democrat would propose that. At least change

the income tax rates to affect those making a half million or more.

[Captain Hilts]

4. I remember when Christie T. Whitman proposed taxing groceries for their full value when coupons were

used to buy them. Yes, tax coupon clippers!!!!

[Captain Hilts]

2. Regressive taxes!!!! It makes the fund raisers happy!

[Dragonfli]

3. Very disappointing, but not unexpected. Our state is usually Democratic in name only

Owned by corporate lobbyist and wealthy interests. It us seldom that the Democratic party label leads to anything even remotely liberal here. I find that the Democrats and republicans here have far more in common than they have differences.

Look at our senators.

[tabbycat31]

5. dosen't NY already have sales tax on clothes

I lived in NY for 26 years, and I can't remember when tehy did NOT have sales tax on clothes. I always went to CT to buy my clothes (moot point now since I live in NJ).

[Yavin4]

They Repealed The Sales Tax On Clothes A Few Years Ago

Because New Jersey didn't have a sales tax.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

6. I find Americans bitching about taxes on everyday goods laughable.

Try living in any other Western democracy with 15+% VAT. We have it easy.

[Yavin4]

8. Other Western Democracies Also Have Subsidized Health Care and Education

Which makes for a big difference.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

11. Subsidized by what?

I live in the UK and my NI payments are probably 3x what I ever paid for a decent PPO health care plan in the states. Naturally, this is going to support people who don't make as much money as I do, and for that reason I'm happy to support it, but seriously - tax rates in most Western democracies are a LOT higher than what's paid in the US. I probably pay 1.75x what I'd pay in the US in taxes.

[hfojvt]

20. I did not notice that when I was in Europe

but the exchange rate was good way back then. I find it puzzling that their tax system would be so regressive. A VAT is regressive isn't it?

[RandomThoughts]

7. Tax on the middle class

Taxing this stuff is just more class warfare against middle class.

Could raise income tax on wealthy, but they say if you raise taxes income falls?
This is a big Repub talking point.

If you raise taxes on the rich in a progressive way, it will lower income. So how could this be true? Because people with money hide it when tax goes up to make it true, hoping that it will go down again later.

And rich people do not make jobs. That is a lie. They say they need money so they can invest and create jobs. But no investment is to make jobs, it is to make money, and many times it is to cut jobs. But if government had that same money, they could invest in works projects that did make jobs.

And guess what, maybe the rich will make a little less, this could make the income argument true, but the middle class makes more.

So just raise taxes again :) Or pick up the slack with extra income in the middle class sectors.

Clinton had balance budget, Republicans have hundreds of billions of debt. That debt is effectively funneled to the rich due to our economic system, so with that debt their is more money coming in from the tax on the rich. BUT IT ALSO COMES FROM MIDDLE CLASS TAX PAYERS, AND FUTURE GENERATIONS! In the form of interest paid on that debt and the debt itself.

[Yavin4]

9. They Need To Tax The Multi Million Dollar Condos

No one lives in them anyway. They just exist so that the wealthy can trade them back and forth.

[Dragonfli]

12. They should but they won't - they are for the most part bought and payed for

It matters little here what party they belong to, they know where their campaign bread is buttered.
The rhetoric during elections is just that, policy is beyond the control of us simple working class voters.

[RandomThoughts]

13. Only because you believe that.

If you believe that you can make a difference, you will find a way.

Power of those with money, or influence does not come from their money.

It comes from people willing to do things that they would consider bad for that money.

Your statement is the most important thing power wants you to believe. Forget the rest, that one statement is all they really care about, because from that comes control. Perpetuation that conspiracies exist are to make it seem like they have power.

Check this out.

When something happens, everyone jumps on board to make it look like it was organized, so that people think they planned it that way. Its all smoke and mirrors.

[Dragonfli]

14. My beliefs do not influence NY state governance as much as you appear to believe

I continue to do what I can as do others, yet the only result seems to be that for some reason I still do not have as much power as a well funded lobbyist. This is not a conspiracy theory, it is a simple fact.

I am a bit Quixotic, or I would simply give up.
You appear to be a bit naive about the willingness of our representatives to listen to mere constituents over the input of those giving large cash donations to their election funds.

How would you explain the existence of policies that favor only a small percentage of the citizenry? If there were no power in money and lobbying efforts how do you explain all the money poured into the lobby industry? Are the corporations funding this largess stupid businessmen or altruists?

Thank you for considering my power so great that I am responsible for regressive taxation.
I am humbled by your assessment, but that is not what I have suggested in the hundreds of letters I have written or the few LTTE that I have managed to get into print nor will it ever be likely to be the content of any of my future input. Why do you think it is my fault? Do you blame the poor as well as humble working class advocates for the poor such as myself?

If I have so much power - you who see what I do not surely must have more - fix it then damn you and stop blaming me.

[RandomThoughts]

17. Sounds a bit radical, but it has been done before.

Q: How would you explain the existence of policies that favor only a small percentage of the citizenry? If there were no power in money and lobbying efforts how do you explain all the money poured into the lobby industry? Are the corporations funding this largess stupid businessmen or altruists?

A: because many people allow money to make their decisions above what they might think is correct.
Examples
A TV executive could refuse to sell an add that is smear or deception.
A teleprompter reader could refuse to read lies (in the rare case that they are given scripts that are geared to engineer public opinion.)
Police could refuse to enforce actions that are violations of rights, or the constitution.
Soldiers could refuse to deploy if they believe action unjust.
Workers could refuse to do work for a company that acts unjustly.
Financiers could refuse to do dishonest deals.
Waitresses could refuse to serve people that have not shown an earning of their money.
Shops could refuse to sell to people that have shown privileged actions.
Workers could refuse to repair electric or roads to people that have shown privileged actions.
People could refuse to pay taxes, if social contract was breeched
People could stand outside buildings that advocate unjust actions and speak to others about it.
People could refuse to ship goods to areas that have shown unjust actions.
People could refuse to work for government officials that do not support just actions.
Assistance to politicians could report the actions of those others, if they were unjust, to media.
People could spend every hour of every day talking to others about what is important to them.
People could refuse to vote for a candidate just because they are one of the two put on tv.
People could go to jail, or refuse to hold others in custody due to breach of social contract.

and a thousand more things that could be done.

It is not that complicated.

Q:Thank you for considering my power so great that I am responsible for regressive taxation.
I am humbled by your assessment, but that is not what I have suggested in the hundreds of letters I have written or the few LTTE that I have managed to get into print nor will it ever be likely to be the content of any of my future input. Why do you think it is my fault? Do you blame the poor as well as humble working class advocates for the poor such as myself?

A: I assign no blame, each person chooses their actions, it is definitely not for me to assign blame.
However if a poor person shops at a store that actively advocates for keeping them poor, then they make a choice. This does sound radical, I know that, But the only reason power exist is people give it to others. They accept the system.

And if you stand long enough, and your actions are just, I believe a path will be shown, that is a belief system of mine, and does not need to be believed by others. It is what I believe however.

Also I do not say you should do more, I only say you could, as could I. The point is if people want to change the system it is up to them.



This is actually one of the arguments of the rich. They say if people did not want to be in wage slavery, or rule by the few, they would do something about it. They are happy as they are, and so they should continue to serve the few.

Personally, I am waiting for the changes that should occur under new administration. So this is acedemic thought on the issue. A way to present that the problem is not the few, but the choice of the many to allow the few to do as they wish.

[Winterblues]

10. People won't buy beer

Not on the planet I live on....Beer sales historically have increased during bad economic times..

[alarimer]

15. They are raising the wrong taxes.

They need to raise income taxes on the rich. I saw a proposal that would reinstate the former tax brackets and raise all the money necessary to balance budget, while keeping most people's taxes the same.

Why are Democrats such chicken-shits when it comes to fair taxation?

[Dragonfli]

16. I have tried to answer your question earlier with the reality of NYS politics

All that got me was "the blame for it".
Apparently the truth of what influences our representatives votes on such matters is akin to conspiracy theory.

I have written often to my reps trying to encourage progressive taxation and was damned here for pointing out that those with money in this state have usually gotten what they want instead.

This is what has happened again, but to believe this, or state it, is conspiratorial nonsense.
I give up, perhaps you will get an answer that does not offend those that do not wish to believe this is the case. truth and myself be damned.

[Selatius]

18. Taxing the middle class is easier than taxing the rich. The rich have lawyers and lobbyists.

It would only make sense that the state would attempt regressive taxation before attempting to target taxes at the ultra-rich, who would no doubt fight such taxes through litigation and heavy lobbying campaigns.

[hfojvt]

19. Do you have a link to his proposal?

That is pretty sickening that he proposed sales taxes, although I am surprised that you don't already pay sales tax on clothing. Most states I have lived in have sales taxes on clothing. I guess I shoulda bought some t-shirts last time I was in NY.

Is the legislature controlled by Republicans or Democrats?