I'm going to say something nasty about an African American

[cboy4]

-- not only an African American, but the first black coach to win a Super Bowl....Tony Dungy of the Indianapolis Colts who is a bigot.

Colts' Dungy: 'I embrace' same-sex marriage ban

Indianapolis Colts coach Tony Dungy said he knows some people would rather he steered clear of Indiana's gay marriage debate, but he clearly staked out his position nonetheless.

The Super Bowl-winning coach "embraced" the stance of an Indiana organization supporting an amendment to the state constitution that would ban gay marriages, and he added Tuesday night at a gathering of the Indiana Family Institute that he's "on the Lord's side."

"We're not trying to downgrade anyone else," said Dungy.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/colts/2007-03-21-dungy-remarks_N.htm

"We're not trying to downgrade anyone else." :wtf:

Whatever you asshole bigot.

You know what Tony? Many people in the South back in the late '50's-early 60's we're probably arguing the same thing (we're not trying to downgrade anyone else) when they we're trying to keep you separated from white people, and we're trying to keep you from voting.

You should be so ashamed of yourself for making a ridiculous comment like, oh, "we're not trying to downgrade anyone else."

And to think I felt sympathy for you when your teen son committed suicide a couple of years ago, and was happy for your accomplishment in the Super Bowl this year.

"I'm on the lord's side."

You don't know jack shit about the lord, you hurtful bigot.

[Dhalgren]

1. I have lost a whole lot of respect for Mr. Dungy. He can't be "a decent man" and hold

bigotry in his heart for an entire section of humankind. Wow, Tony Dungy and the KKK, in the same category - who would have ever thought it?

[Snot Hannity]

2. Why did his teenaged son

commit suicide? Was he gay?

[cboy4]

5. If he was, it wasn't disclosed. Here's a link to the story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10572873/

[Blue_Tires]

10. before it got pulled,

his son had some really out-there stuff on his website (myspace?) said he idolized the D.C. snipers among others...

[Snot Hannity]

42. Thanks for the link. Looks like his son

took his secret with him to the grave. Regardless of the nature of his secret, one would think that a tragedy like this will instill some compassion in a parent. But his father has proven that stupidity is thicker than blood.

[cboy4]

51. You're welcome. Yea, you would think it would instill some

compassion.

I just can't help but wonder now if perhaps his son may have been gay, and couldn't cope with his right wing fundamentalist dad.

Very sad.

[Rockholm]

82. Dunno know. Brit Hume's son did however.

[Midlodemocrat]

3. Given that he suffered the greatest loss a parent ever can, he sure

has a pretty hardened, blackened heart.

He's no Christian, that's for damned sure.

[roguevalley]

137. it appalls me that people use the Bible to justify hatred. people

used it to justify slavery. any oppression is sick. Period.

[cboy4]

139. Sigh. It's so true.

:(

[Marnieworld]

4. But put him under a Christian microscope?

I have had suicide touch me deeply and personally so I do not judge him or lack compassion for his experience. I also was a Bucs fan when he was coach so I generally have good feelings for the man.

But this seems hypocritical to me. Some would condemn his son with the very same bible that he is wielding towards others. They would judge him (the son) and say he will burn in hell eternally because of the choice to end his life. Has Dungy also taken the "side" of the Lord when it affects him personally?

I'll never understand how religious people can feel so comfortable judging others. What about glass houses, take the plank from your eye and all that stuff? How in any way does this resemble Christ's love?

[sniffa]

6. as gets pointed out often

not onLy by me..

you'd think some who's son committed suicide wouLd throw his hat in with groups who activeLy add to the growing List of suicide victims.

say what you want, but this shouLd be something that bridges that divide.

[JackBeck]

28. I agree, sniffa.

You'd think he'd have more compassion and be able to relate to the parents of gay children who have committed suicide.

[Mad_Dem_X]

103. Good point

You would think that would make him a little more sympathetic, if nothing else.

[NMMNG]

7. What is it lately,

with the rash of people who feel compelled to have a press conference to proclaim their bigotry to the world? :shrug:

[Blue_Tires]

8. that's why i wanted Lovie to win

[truebrit71]

9. That whole organisation are a bunch of God-Botherers....

Arseholes...

[cboy4]

12. Yes. Excellent point. I'm aware that the owner is a right wing

Christian conservative nut.

[cboy4]

11. I wanted Payton to finally get a ring, and I'm still happy he did, but

I totally hear what you're saying.

[geardaddy]

13. Isn't the Colts organization a bit fundy?

Just asking, because it seems like the owner, Dungy, and Peyton Manning are a bit on the fundy side.

[truebrit71]

31. They are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY fundy...

:puke:

[AwakeAtLast]

85. Considering they are in Indiana, hell yeah

Have you been to Indiana lately? I wouldn't be surprised if I saw a spontanious KKK parade in some areas around here.

I have met many people here who are wonderful, but the fundies here scare me sometimes. :(

[geardaddy]

100. Nope

I haven't been to Indiana in a number of years. We used to go through Indiana when I was a kid from MN to PA to see my grandparents, but that's about the last contact I've had with IN.

[AwakeAtLast]

105. Not missing a lot

Our Governor, affectionately called "Mitch the B*tch" is as Bushie as you can get. He was in his cabal in D. C. before resigning to run for Governor here.

It's taken him less time than Bush to make people hate him here. Cigarette taxes (from a Repuke!), Daylight Savings Time, and a horrible Interstate toll road system he wants to build around Indy are just a few of the many things he has proposed or enacted.

[geardaddy]

106. Sounds like our Gov.

Minnesota is basically a blue state, but the gov Timmy the Tool (R-Naturally) has raised taxes after calling for tax cuts. How did he get around that one? He called them "fees".

[AwakeAtLast]

140. LOL! I hope Mitch doesn't talk to him!

He will latch on to that in no time!

[jesus_of_suburbia]

14. What does his race have to do with it?

He is an ass.

Who cares if he is black or white?

Would you feel it necessary to say "I'm going to say something nasty about a Caucasian?"





His skin color has nothing to do with you calling him out on his prejudice! It's his take on "moral" positions. He's an ass. Don't feel like you have to preface that with his race.



My sister-in-law's mother is black (I'm white). She is a preacher's wife, and she is the sweetest thing and loves me dearly even though I am gay.

Now let me ask you.. was it necessary for me to tell you that my sister-in-law's mother is black? NO! Judge everyone as an individual. Try to be color blind. If someone is an asshole, call them out on it. Don't feel necessary to preface it with a disclaimer about their race.

[cboy4]

16. Yes, it is important because if you read my post entirely, you'll

have noticed the remark about civil rights.

I find it highly hypocritical for someone who is a minority, to be opposed to human rights.

So there you have it.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

30. I disagree... blacks and whites are the same....

Both groups have absolutely no reason to deny gays their rights.


Anyone out of each group is an ass who fights against gay rights, but blacks are no worse simply because they had a rough time fighting for their rights.


I group my father (as asshole who hates gays and blacks) in the same group as Tony Dungy.


They are 2 totally different people culturally, but they both hate. That has nothing to do with their skin color.


JUDGE EVERYONE AS AN INDIVIDUAL.

That is my golden rule.


You have to remember that MANY people have no EMPATHY. Feel sorry for them, and be glad that you do. Fight for the cause (which you are) and be glad that you have empathy.

[treestar]

23. I would agree, but maybe it was to head off extremists who would

throw an accusation of racism around just because OP criticizes the views of a black person? That's the idea I get from it.

[cboy4]

24. Most of your ideas are embarrassing, so I'm not surprised

you're confused as usual.

No offense, of course. :eyes:

[The Doctor.]

75. Ummm... Where did you get

an 'accusation of racism' from the post you are quoting?

[cboy4]

80. The OP has an acute Pat Robertson-like obsession with

homosexuality.

She can't help but pounce on every thread involving a gay issue, respond with a nasty "drive-by" and disappear into the night to avoid the cops.

Zero courage.

[Rockholm]

83. Um, aren't you the original OP?

BTW, I did not gather anything racist in any of your posts. The jesus from suburbia person seems to have a bunch a convenient relationships, however.

[cboy4]

84. D'oh. I am the OP! I meant, well, you know what I meant I guess.

It's an "interesting" thread for sure.

[Rockholm]

134. I do.

Sorry you are getting hammered on this. I totally get what you are saying. Sadly, there are many DUers who pick fights just to pick fights. I used to live in this really awesome neighborhood in Boston. Very lesbian and somewhat militant about "things." The gay men in the neighborhood (me included) used to walk on eggshells. There was a small rash of break-ins and one person gave a description of the perp and mentioned he appeared Hispanic. OMFG. WWIII broke out over that.
Just ignore the hype.

[cboy4]

138. It's okay (about getting hammered) - nobody ever said liberation

would be easy.

Although, you'd think on a Democratic website, people who claim to be liberals would be a little bit more in favor of equal rights for everyone.

Sadly, the place is crawling with a number of well-known bigots who don't belong and for some unknown reason are allowed to remain.

But thanks dude.

[Rockholm]

141. I have had some good run-ins with major homophobes here.

There is one chick that does the old "I have lots of gay friends, but why...." just fill in the rest of the sentence with whatever we happen to be fighting for at the time. I don't remember her name at the moment but she is surely worth watching.

On a side note...How the the Giants going to do this year? I think the Red Sox are going to do quite well this year!

[cboy4]

142. Yup I know! Ummm...my G-men will probably finish around

.500 to maybe 10 games over at the most.

They're not great on paper...certainly nowhere as good as your team, but who knows.

As long as they finish ahead of the Dodgers!!! We effing hate L.A. as I'm sure you know.

We'll have to talk when the Giants head to Fenway this summer. ;)

[Rockholm]

143. June 15-17. Should be a great weekend series!

[Le Taz Hot]

148. You did not say "chick"!

Holy goddess. And YOU'RE talking about bigotry? I mean, you just gotta love the irony in that.

[Rockholm]

151. Ease off.

Chick is certainly not bigotry. Go iron yourself.

[Snot Hannity]

167. I agree.

I was introduced to DU by a coworker who told me that this was a website for progressives. After I started visiting I found out that there are a lot of closeted bigots and "selective liberals" here. It was a major lesson I learned and will never forget.

[ecstatic]

122. You don't have to be an extremist

to be offended by this thread. He went out of his way to be offensive.

[cboy4]

128. You're definitely an extremist (and a bigot) for accusing me and

the gay community for being racists when it comes to black people.

You're a nut.

[ecstatic]

130. Pot meet kettle. This isn't the first time you've singled out blacks as being homophobic

You do it all the time. Yet never a mention when a gay person does or says something racist. It gets old and tiring after a while.

[cboy4]

132. You're throwing out wild allegations, just as you do all the time.

You have a long history at DU of being anti-gay.

I'm not surprised you're continuing your streak.

[hiphopnation]

26. beat me to this point

If someone is an asshole, call them out on it. Don't feel necessary to preface it with a disclaimer about their race.

this was my initial reaction to this post, almost verbatim.

[cboy4]

27. Race is important because he is a minority who suffered

through the civil rights era.

Therefore, my point is he's a hypocrite from opposing the human rights of other minorities.

Simple.

[wake.up.america]

113. Great!!! I agree. don't have to know what color someone is.

[guitar man]

15. I don't give a shit what color

race, creed or anything else someone may be, bigoted assholes are bigoted assholes. If they are against the full equal rights of gay people for any reason, including their precious religious beliefs, they are bigoted fuckwads. Hell, lets not forget the klan bases its bigotry on religious beliefs.

BTW, this includes a couple of gay Repukes I know who are in favor of same sex marriage bans. I'm not leaving them of my bigot list either. :grr:

[cboy4]

17. I care what color he is because it's hypocritcal for a minority who

suffered through the civil rights era to be opposed to the civil rights of other minorities.

[BlooInBloo]

39. Yup! There's nothing white folks love to see more than a hypocritical black guy...

... As it makes white folks look better, by comparison. It's perfectly clear why it's important for you to point out that this anti-gay dude is black.

Another application of "It takes 10 'atta-boys' to make up for one 'aw shit'".

:rofl:

[cboy4]

41. I'm not sure what being white has to do with any of this.

The comparison is minority versus minority.

[Le Taz Hot]

149. Jesus!

"There's nothing white folks love to see more than a hypocritical black guy."

I can't believe the racism on this board. From ALL sides.

Would that be ALL white folks, there, sparky, or just SOME white folks?

[KittyWampus]

91. If you wanted to make that point, why not put it into your opening post?

[verse18]

18. Hate is a Christian value

Or haven't you heard?

[cboy4]

21. Well, I think there are some very decent Christians on the left

who are not hateful.

But no question....on the other side....hate is definitely a Christian value.

[judaspriestess]

29. thats why they are "Christians from Hell"

scary thought.

[hfojvt]

22. it's a liberal value too I guess

we have long lists of people who are 'bigot a$$holes' or 'fu$%wad bigots' because they don't agree with us on one issue.

[BlooInBloo]

40. Has been from day one. That's the difference between marketing, and reality.

[spoony]

79. As opposed to the love and tolerance

shown by the soft-spoken Atheist Bludgeon Brigade here...

[cwydro]

19. I am also a little confused

about your using his race in your title...but maybe it was just to get people to open it.

Mr. Dungy's stance on gay marriage is something I couldn't care less about and I am sure I'm not the only one.

[cboy4]

20. Why don't you understand my point? He is a minority who has

suffered the pain of people suppressing his human rights.

Therefore, he is a hypocrite for doing it to another class of minorities.

He should know better.

That's why I pointed it out.

[KittyWampus]

92. Then why didn't you state that in your opening post? As it stand, you have simply started a thread

that seems primarily intended to inflame.

[cboy4]

94. I did make that point in my opening post:

"You know what Tony? Many people in the South back in the late '50's-early 60's we're probably arguing the same thing (we're not trying to downgrade anyone else) when they we're trying to keep you separated from white people, and we're trying to keep you from voting.

You should be so ashamed of yourself for making a ridiculous comment like, oh, "we're not trying to downgrade anyone else."

=======


Stop accusing me of starting something to inflame.

You know I have every reason to be upset.

[Neecy]

25. what an ass

He says "we" - meaning fundie Christians - are "on the Lord's side" which, following this reasoning would mean that I, as a gay woman, am not "on the Lord's side".

And then this fuckwad says he's not trying to downgrade anyone else? Can you be stupid *and* have a head coaching job in the NFL, or does he give this little disclaimer just in case anyone calls him what he most certainly is, a fucking bigot?

[mockmonkey]

32. Starting with

Reggie White and through the *snickers* controversy and now Tony Dungy this attitude is expected and some day it will change. I'm thinking that in the straight world marriage is only about sex because love is never mentioned when they talk about gay marriage.:sarcasm:

[Kahuna]

33. I don't know why you felt the need to point out his race.

Kinda makes him not the only bigot.

[cboy4]

35. I've explained this 100 times during the thread. Why don't you take

the time to r-e-a-d.

I said race is important because we have a bigoted minority, who suffered through the civil rights era, in favor of suppressing the human rights of another class of minorities.

Why couldn't you piece that together on your own instead of flying off the handle and calling me a bigot?

[jesus_of_suburbia]

34. If anyone says you are racist for saying Dungy is a bigot...

Then they are a homophobic, racist bigot.



Don't bring race into it! let the Racists and the Bigots bring it into the arena.


I'll totally support you then!

[cboy4]

36. Why is it you refuse to understand the irony and hypocricy?

I've explained why his race matters regarding this issue countless times throughout this thread.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

37. I think all people who look down upon gays are idiots.

I do see where you are coming from, I just don't agree with you.


He is a DUMB MORON. It has nothing to do with his race. It has to do with his lack of empathy. A straight white person is just as guilty as a straight black person when they don't believe in gay rights.


I believe that being gay is not a choice. Therefore, it is similar (but not the same), as being black.

I still don't believe that we should hold blacks to a higher standard than whites.


I DO believe that all straight whites and all straight blacks who don't support equal gay rights are CRUEL and lack EMPATHY.


Why can't you see what I'm saying?

[cboy4]

38. Well, we're just going to have to disagree with each other on this

issue because I doubt we'll change either of our minds.

I think it was relevant to point out (especially for those who don't know Dungy is black) that it's ironic, hypocritical and wrong for someone who belongs to a persecuted class of minority to support the oppression of another class of minority.

So therefore, I do hold (not just blacks), but all groups of minorities to a higher standard than non-minorities.

[Colobo]

43. Race and sexuality are not exclusive from each other, so

When people try to say GLBT citizens are going what blacks when through in the 50s and 60s (notice the way the two are "oppossed" in the argument), is like they ignore all the black GLBT Americans who had (and, in a way, still have) to go through the TWO hells: being black and gay in an intolerant society.

Oh, by the way, Dungy is very wrong on this issue. All Americans need to be on the Equality side.

[marmar]

44. I get your point...and as an African American, I do tend to get more upset...

when I see a member of an oppressed group denigrating a member of another oppressed group - I agree with you on the "holding to a higher standard" thing, but I must admit that I found your subject line grating. It just seems unnecessarily inflammatory to me - you could have made your point in a more tasteful way.
But otherwise, I agree with your premise.

[cboy4]

45. Thanks. I probably should have written the headline differently

and refrained from placing so much emphasis on the "African American" aspect.

However, I was irritated and was trying to set up the story in a way that would catch the eye of readers.

I agree, it could have been done in a more tasteful way, considering I'm fiercely loyal toward all minorities....obviously being one myself.

Thanks for your considerate post marmar, and I'm sorry if I offended you.

[marmar]

47. Entiendo, mi amigo.

:pals:

[omega minimo]

152. You didn't know "your subject line grating" "seems unnecessarily inflammatory"

"but I must admit that I found your subject line grating. It just seems unnecessarily inflammatory to me - you could have made your point in a more tasteful way."

Doubtful, since you were "trying to set up the story in a way that would catch the eye of readers."

Since you brought up the hypocrisy and comparison of allegiances of various groups, check this out:

The "lord" here is the lord of the manor, the king in his castle: Male authority as cemented (in religion and) in traditional marriages. The gay marriage movement seems to ignore that and forge ahead-- which may work. However, it's a huge blind spot in a discussion like this one where the subject is "toleranter than thou" and fingers are being pointed.

Gay marriage threatens the male power structure as expressed and perpetuated through traditional marriage and rigid gender roles. Where and when do activists for gay marriage and gay rights align themselves with women's rights? And acknowledge that both subgroups are asserting rights that challenge the structural imbalance of gender power?

:hi:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

46. What an asshole.

[Colobo]

48. I wonder how black GLBT citizens had it in the 50s and 60s

[JackBeck]

52. Enlighten yourself

And do some research on Bayard Rustin.

[Colobo]

53. Thanks, I will!

[JackBeck]

55. I hope you find along the way

how a Gay Black Man organized the 1963 march on Washington.

[cboy4]

62. I don't know. Ask Matthew Shepherd

and all of the other gay bashing victims who have died and have been seriously injured.

Astounding.

[Colobo]

65. Dude, I'm on your side.

The point of my posts has been to illustrate that blackness and homosexuality are not exclusive from each other. I understand your point as well, don't get me wrong. Discrimination against GLBT citizens trascends race just like sexual orientation itself does. Usually, the same people that denounce discrimination based on race/ethnicity are ready to discriminate against GLBT citizens of all races and ethnicities, including their own.

[cboy4]

68. Right on....I just interpreted your post as though you were trying to

play the "whose been more persecuted and oppressed game."

Thanks dude.

[JackBeck]

66. And our point is to listen to your leaders 50 years later

And to appreciate to words of Bayard Rustin, Coretta Scott King and Desmond Tutu.

[Colobo]

71. Well, I'm technically not African-American

Black man from Latin America (Afro-Latino) here, but I do get your point and everyone should listen to the voices of equality this great country has produced.

[JackBeck]

73. I predominately work in communities of color so I give you a

:thumbsup:

[ContraBass Black]

49. So what if he's black?

Would it be any less wrong for a white person to oppose gay rights? Is there a special obligation upon black people to support gay rights, ahead of other colors?

[BlooInBloo]

50. White folks think it makes them look better when black folks are "just as bad".

[JackBeck]

56. Are you kidding me?

Cboy has created this thread to find COMMON GROUND. And he's done a hell of a job establishing that all night long at every step of the way.

Why are YOU the one being divisive?

[BlooInBloo]

57. (shrug) I'm sure most here will agree with you. LOL!

EDIT: But of course, that's a foxes-guarding-the-hen-house type of issue.

[JackBeck]

59. Why? Because most people here are white?

Why are you so dismissive?

[BlooInBloo]

60. Yup.

[JackBeck]

63. You should pay attention a bit more.

And realize what some of your white brothers do for a living.

[BlooInBloo]

70. As long as that means something to you, I guess that's good enough... lol!

[JackBeck]

74. It's never about me when I do my workshops.

Wish you'd realize that people are out there actually working in the community.

[JackBeck]

54. Not an obligation

Just a mutual understanding over what it must feel like to fight for equality in the United States. That is all.

[cboy4]

58. It's not specifically becuse he's black. It's because he's a member

of a minority group that is oppressed -- and was oppressed much, much worse during the civil rights era.

Therefore, he should know better than to support the oppression of a different group of minorities!

That's the point. And that's the reason for mentioning that he is black.

[JackBeck]

61. The more this topic comes up

The more I feel it's taboo to mention gay Male and heterosexual Black male in the same sentence.

[cboy4]

64. I know.

sigh.

[fishwax]

72. I think it was not that your point is bad, but that it's been lost in your approach

it's one thing to start a thread about Tony Dungy and to mention in the OP that you think he, as a member of an oppressed minority, should have some idea of what it's like to face society's oppression, and therefore ought not be pushing it himself. It's another thing to start a thread that shouts out the fact your criticizing an African-American, making his race central to your argument (in a way the post itself doesn't entirely support) and, furthermore, central to his bigoted identity.

I see your point, and I'm writing this post not to discuss the relative merits of that analysis. Rather, I'm trying to explain why the approach you took to the OP, rather than the point you were making, might have raised hackles. Were a gay man to say or do something racist or otherwise bigoted, I would find a post titled "I'm about to say something nasty about a gay man" distasteful as well.

on edit: i see now that somebody already mentioned this, and that you had responded, upthread. I didn't see that before I posted :) :hi:

[cboy4]

81. No problem. I understand your point.

:hi:

[Pushed To The Left]

67. Kicked and recommended! I wonder how he felt many years back

when the right wing was "defending marriage" from interracial couples. Racist white people probably absolutely love seeing a black person speaking out against gay rights. "Divide and conquer". Luckily, the NAACP (at least the local chapter) has taken a stand against anti-gay bigotry.

[cboy4]

69. Very, very well said. Thanks so much for getting it!

:)

[The Doctor.]

76. They said how 'unnatural' it was

for people of different races to marry and copulate.

They even quoted the fucking Bible when they said it.

Asshole needs a history lesson. But I suppose he spat when he thought of 'white women'... I suppose he never found them attractive. Otherwise his hypocrisy is stunning.

[bling bling]

77. Well the VAST majority of voters in my whole state "embraced" it too.

People at my work were throwing on their coats and rushing out the door that day all discussing how they had to leave and go vote "against gay marriage." This vote was held months before the Presidential election and these were people who never in a million years would have bothered going to the polls were this issue not on the ballot.

I had no idea how bad it was up until that day. And it was disgusting to see how proud everyone seemed of themselves for some mysterious bizarre reason over this issue. So satisfied that they were keeping gay people from ever having an opportunity to change the Missouri constitution. I was only one in my the whole office who voted against the amendment.

The disappointment and anger I felt towards my state that day was something I won't forget. It rivals the deep shame and embarrassment I felt for this country when Bush was re-elected.

But why Tony Dungy gets singled out here over this issue so many times is beyond me. The fact that his son committed suicide is a completely irrelevant point unless his son committed suicide over anything that had to do with this issue. Dungy's viewpoint sucks just like the other people in his state who voted the same way he did, they don't get some free pass just because all their kids are alive and same goes for race. His viewpoint sucks as bad as (not worse, not better) people who hold his same viewpoint whether they're white or whatever.

Really the anger and ire and focus deserves to be planted firmly on the Republicans because they're the manipulative little fuckers who are tinkering with laws and playing coochie-coo with the church leaders in order to sucker people into voting "R" and have us all hating each other.

[DIKB]

78. I've always taken the stance

that ALL Minorities need to stick up for eachother, b/c they have truly felt the sting of oppression, bigotry, and hatred.

The idea of one group crapping on another, and them crapping on another is repugnant, end it now.

Call me a hippie, but I find comfort in, and often find I'm singing these lyrics to myself:

Come on people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another
Right now

[qwlauren35]

86. Most African-Americans don't support gay marriage.

I can't imagine that anyone doesn't already know this. It wasn't wise for a public sports figure to polarize himself by going political, but I don't understand the sense of surprise.

It's one of the reasons why more and more African-Americans are becoming ambivalent about the Democratic party. We know that our religious views are often much more aligned to those of Republicans. Most African-Americans are pro-life, also.

Again, I don't see the big surprise.

What surprises most of the black neo-cons and black Republicans is how long some of us have stayed faithful to the Democratic Party all these years. Our allegiance to the Democratic Party is actually ONLY 40 years old. If it weren't for the fact that most black Republicans are appointed instead of elected, I think the allegiance would begin to shift.

During the 2006 elections, there were many prominent black ministers who supported the Bush campaign because of the pro-life, anti-gay position. I am starting to believe that there are many of us secretly voting Republican, and many who will be coming out of the closet over the next several years.

I think this is why, in past years, there has been an awkwardness about the Democratic party. We are a cluster of special interests, that are not aligned. There are entire segments of the party who are ONLY in because of a single issue: Pro-choice, feminist, pro-gun control, civil liberties, environmentalism, anti-war, support of social services, gay supportive, supporting Affirmative Action. Not every Democrat actually supports all of these things.

Even though Republicans used to seem like a cluster of special interests as well, they have concentrated their message on Christianity and "the self-made man"... (and his wealthy descendants). It has appeal, and it seems to be working. There is nothing in this platform that would turn away a black voter. It's only the undercurrent of racism... and its fading.

So. Don't be surprised if more and more African-Americans start standing tall on their conservative and anti-gay views. "Coming out of the closet" works both ways. Homophobes can come out, too.

[cgrindley]

87. Why is his race an issue?

The guy doesn't support gay marriage. Why would his race be an issue? Do African American people have to frame every single one of their opinions from the perspective of the legacy of African American slavery in the US?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

89. Well, there is a certain amount of hypocrisy in one oppressed group deciding to oppress another.

They had their civil rights struggle (which had a lot of support from gays) and one would think that they would be more supportive of the civil rights struggles of others.

[cgrindley]

93. His race should matter

about as much as anyone else's sexuality. Calling him out for his non-support of gay marriage on racial grounds, to me at least, is a teenie bit racist. Call him out for being a bible-thumping idiot, but leave his race out of it.

PS I support gay marriage and strongly dislike all religions.

[cboy4]

95. Baloney. Considering at one time he had to sit at

the back of the bus, and wouldn't have been allowed to vote if he were old enough....it is outrageous that he has no problem supporting the oppression of others fighting for their civil rights.

He is a bigot.

[cgrindley]

96. That's just not a useful argument

I think that attacking somone's opinion on the grounds of their race is a troubling thing to do.

EG: only asian people think that
EG: jews should understand
EG: all african americans can understand
EG: of course you'd say that, you're white

See? it's an ugly way to argue...

[cboy4]

98. The irony of someone who comes from an oppressed class

of human beings telling the world he supports the oppression of another class of human beings leaps off the screen.

Are you telling me if an African American joined the Ku Klux KLan, his race wouldn't be relevant?

Come on!

[cgrindley]

102. Strawman!

that's not rational.

[cboy4]

104. Whatever you say Einstein.

:eyes:

[cgrindley]

109. How is that a helpful or useful reply?

Instead of heading toward ad hominem, why not learn how to debate your opinions in a moderately intelligent manner? It's this sort of name calling crap that really cheapens discussion on this site and creates an atmosphere of just outright ignorance.

[cboy4]

115. Hmmm. Well, it's not meant to be helpful nor useful.

It's a sarcastic reply aimed at someone who clearly has issues with gay human rights. (you)

Otherwise, you wouldn't be so obsessed with the fierce defense of a homophobe.

An 6th grader has the brainpower to recognize the ironic situation of one oppressed person (African American Tony Dungy) supporting the continued oppression of another oppressed person. (that being someone gay)

One needs to point out that Tony Dungy is African American to make this point.

Otherwise, it's simply an NFL coach speaking out against equal marriage for gays and lesbians.

Offensive yet. But not nearly as outrageous.

You need to look up the definition of irony, and stop trying to argue stereotypes.

Doing so makes zero sense.

[cgrindley]

116. I'm not defending him

he's a bigot. I support gay marriage 100%.

But there's nothing ironic about his bigotry. It's based on his Christian religion.

Dungy hasn't really been oppressed in his life. He was born in the north in 1955, had an uneventful upbringing, a stellar career as an athelete, and even became the youngest assistant coach in the history of the game at the age of 25. He's had a charmed existence more or less.

If he's a bigot, blame his relgion or his personal morals, but I don't think that his race should come into it at all.

[cboy4]

119. So you're telling me it would only be ironic if didn't have these

bigoted Christian beliefs?

[cgrindley]

120. Not in the least

it's only ironic for an African American to be a bigot if she or he publically preaches tolerance. It can't be an innate irony due to race. As soon as a collective claim is made about a race of people, that's the thin end of the racism wedge. It doesn't matter if a collective claim is positive or negative.

[cboy4]

123. "It's only ironic for an African American to be a bigot if she

or he publically preaches tolerance?"

That's ridiculous.

Since you don't seem to get it, let me put it another way.

It is ironic that a person who comes from an oppressed race would adopt such bigoted views against gays, regardless of whether they're religiously motivated or not.

[cgrindley]

144. But

you are presupposing--without any evidence at all--that *all* African Americans think the same way about a topic.

It is the equivalent of being surprised upon learning that an African American person dislikes fried chicken.

[cboy4]

145. You've gone from making hardly any sense, to no sense at all.

The only thing you seemingly understand is irrelevant examples of stereotypes. Totally not applicable to this argument.

Every African American, regardless of their religious views, should not be in the business of oppressing others. The reason is so obvious.

And if an African American chooses to support the oppression of a minorities, as this NFL coach has done, then it is ironic....

.....Ironic because this minority NFL coach, who most certainly would not want to be oppressed, is advocating the oppression of another minority:

Irony: "3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result" (This is from the dictionary)

So, let's break it down:

The actual result of a sequence of events is African American minority Tony Dungy supporting discrimination and oppression of at least one class of minority. (Gays)

The normal or expected result is Tony Dungy should theoretically be opposed to supporting this oppression considering he is a minority himself. (Doesn't matter that he's a different class of minority. He is still a minority.)

And Christian beliefs and teachings do not alter this definition of irony.

And it doesn't matter that Tony Dungy didn't team up with Rosa Parks, since you're implying Dungy hasn't experienced African American oppression. It's irrelevant either way. His race was absolutely, positively oppressed in horrible fashion, and he is part of that race.

So, even if Dungy has never specifically individually experienced oppression per se (an assumption you make, yet one I absolutely don't believe despite his upbringing) it is still wrong and bigoted to support the oppression of other minorities.

And very strikingly, that support of oppression drips of irony considering he is African American....a minority group, and an oppressed group.

Mr. Dungy needs to read more MLK and Malcolm X and less bible before he starts oppressing others.

An African American adopting such a hateful, bigoted, oppressive stance is shocking.

And how ironic.

If you can't understand this, as many other posters have been able to do throughout this thread, then you have your own personal definition of the word "irony." A definition that belongs in cgrindley's very own version of the dictionary.

[cgrindley]

147. This is so dumb

Irony: "3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result" (This is from the dictionary)

"expected" result = racist supposition
"normal" result = racist supposition

If you "expect" a certain behavior from a heterogeneous group of people based on an assumption of a shared racially-based trait, that is racism.

If you consider that a certain behavior is "normal" for a hetergeneous group of people based an assumption of a shared racially-based trait, that is racism.


PS Presupposing a prescriptive meaning for a concept as complex as irony is feeble at best. Citing a dictionary to bolster a lost cause is foolish.

[cboy4]

153. OMFG.

You don't have a clue.

And you're the only person in this entire thread who doesn't understand my point.

Wow. Let's hope you don't teach kids.

[cgrindley]

156. There's absolutely no call for your rudeness

And you're the only person in this entire thread who doesn't understand my point

argumentum ad populum

and then an utterly uncalled for ad hominem


If you don't want to have a reasoned debate, that's your business; but you really should apologize for your rudeness.

[cboy4]

160. I don't have a problem with having a reasoned debate. I DO have a

problem with the fact I break down all of your arguments and offer a reply to each, yet you refuse to do the same...instead going off on some tangent.

You're like the student who doesn't know the answer to the essay question, so he writes and writes and writes to fill the blue book, thinking the teacher will be impressed....when in fact, the teacher can clearly see hardly any of it was relevant.

So, I'm willing (probably stupidly) to try this one more time.

But if you don't answer in concise fashion and in plain English, I'm done with you.


MY POINT:

****Person belongs to a class of oppressed human beings (African Americans)

****Yet, even though this person understands how painful it is to be discriminated against, this person still supports the oppression of another class of minorities (Gays)


****How ironic!!!

=================================================

Now you answer why this example does not fit the definition of irony. (And stick to the irony factor. Nothing else.)


GO:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

99. He's not attacking him on his race. He's pointing out irony, something clearly above your head.

[cgrindley]

101. I understand that the coach's opinion

might be seen as being hypocritical, but only if you presuppose that as a black person he should naturally have certain opinions due to his racial heritage. That's where the problem arises. Attributing or demanding a certain line of reasoning or sympathy from an individual based on his or her race is simply racist. It doesn't logically matter if those opinions are "good" or "bad" opinions. EG since he is black he would naturally have supported equal rights for black people in the days of segregation. That's inherently a racist thing to say.

You see, even though it is natural to presuppose this "good" opinion, that a person would have supported the movement to end segregation, it is still a supposition based on race.

Even though in this case it is a positive supposition, it is nevertheless a racially motivated one, and therefore, is not the best way to argue a point.

EG of course you're good with money, you're jewish.

Being good with money is a virtue. No one would complain about being characterized in that way. But it can still be read in a racially-motivated and stereotypical manner.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

107. That's a whole lot of typing just to show that you don't understand irony.

[cgrindley]

108. And that's not much typing in response

The irony only exists if the African American person is viewed through a racist filter. Otherwise, there is no irony at all.

Or would you suggest that it would be ironic for a Jew to go bankrupt, or for an Arab to run out of gas?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

110. Strawman alert.

And I am certainly not a racist.

[cgrindley]

111. So why then...

is it okay for you to say...

How ironic, a bigoted African American.

Explain yourself. I think that the onus is clearly on you at this point.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

112. Because he went through a struggle for his own civil rights, now he wants to keep civil rights

from others. It's been explained numerous times. You simply refuse to see it and would rather make claims of racism and throw out strawmen.

[cgrindley]

118. What struggle did Dungy go through?

He had a stellar high school and college career. Played in the NFL, his team won the super bowl. Instantly began coaching college football. He became the NFL's youngest ever assistant coach at age 25. He really hasn't fought for anything his entire life. Everything's come pretty easy to him. He was only 1 month old for Rosa Parks' battle to sit down.

[GoneOffShore]

88. Yet another reason to ignore "Sports Figures"

They generally only have one "Good Thing" and it's not their intellect.

Sure there are some athletes out there who are smarter than the average bear, but a good many of them get a platform and then run their mouths. Just like some entertainers. Unfortunately, until we stop the "Cult of Celebrity" the words of the yahoos get a bigger hearing than the rest of us and the smart celebrities get denigrated.

[autorank]

90. Now I know why it took this guy so long to win the Super Bowl, he's an idiot. n/t

Plus I can't stand the Colts. I was in Baltimore the day the moved out, in the dark of night, in secret.

[cboy4]

97. LOL. Yea, what a crime it was leaving Baltimore.

I remember seeing videotape of the moving trucks.

Funny how the Ravens ended up getting a ring before Indianapolis!

[Kelly Rupert]

114. We wouldn't ask Tony Dungy's opinion on Chinese monetary policy.

He doesn't know jack shit about whether the RMB is undervalued. Sports figures are not policy experts. So why do we ask sports figures about gay marriage?

[cboy4]

117. You don't have to be a "policy expert" to be qualified to answer

whether you believe people deserve human rights.

It's a fair question to ask someone who has had to fight for civil rights, why he is opposed to other people being afforded civil rights.

[ecstatic]

121. why is his race included in the discussion?

It seems you went out of your way to be offensive. I guess you feel that most blacks are against gay rights and you're going to ram that point home whenever you get the chance or see an example that proves your theory. Whites are the ones making the laws, last I checked.

[cboy4]

125. For the one thousandth time, his race is relevant because you

have a person who comes from an oppressed race, advocating the oppression of other minorities.

The irony is off the charts.

It's outrageous and noteworthy.

I stand behind my decision to disclose his race.

[ecstatic]

126. I can't wait for you to post about all the anti-black racism that occurs in the gay

community.... Oh wait... That will never happen, because we all know the reverse situation (anti-black racism in the gay community) doesn't exist. :sarcasm:

A drunk Davis calls Tyrie a ni**er, which seems to shocks everyone in the house. However, this type of racial prejudice expressed by an openly gay man is sadly not unheard in the white gay community.

In fact, in April pf 2006, the San Francisco Human Rights Commission found that S.F. Badland, one of the largest and most popular bars in the heart of the gay Castro neighborhood, had discriminated against African American customers and job applicants.

"I have been called 'big, black nigger bitch' while walking on the street in the Castro," said Zwazzi Sowo, a lesbian who has lived in San Francisco for 20 years. "I am 52 years old. Nowhere else in my life have I experienced walking down the street and someone calling me a nigger."

"White gay clubs in Dallas, and throughout America, have the audacity to have 'Negro night' once a week (a designated night when Blacks are welcomed in white gay clubs) in the 21st Century. " said Adrian Harris, Vice Chairman of the Abe Lincoln Black Republican Caucus (ALBRC), a civic group of young Black gay and bisexual men.

Within the hidden gay world lies a myriad of gay racial slurs.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/102634/gay_racism_further_exposed_gay_real.html

Oh well, in that case, carry on!

[cboy4]

127. Gee, you're quite the scholar aren't you?

Broadly painting all gay people as anti-black racists. :crazy:

[ecstatic]

129. well you seem to enjoy doing the reverse

How does your own medicine taste?

[cboy4]

131. Oh, so by pointing out that a single African American

is a hypocrite, suddenly I'm implying that all African Americans are hypocrites.

Have you taken your medicine today?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

124. how does his bigotry relate to his race?

i understand that as a minority he is supposed to be more compassionate about another minority

but as a christian he is in the majority in other ways.

[NMMNG]

133. I get it

He's a fundie bigot first, and a member of an opressed minority second. Gotcha.

[NorthernSpy]

135. you really wanna get into who owes whom where civil rights are concerned?

First, Dungy is merely enunciating an item of standard Christian doctrine. Which is pretty much what one would expect, with him being a Christian and all...

:shrug:


Second, as for your highlighting Dungy's race to make a point: why? I fail to see how this tactic adds anything valuable to your argument. In fact, you're more likely to weaken your argument by raising the question of just who really owes whom re this issue.

The thing is, blacks fought a terribly dangerous and costly fight to win their freedom, and their victories have provided the basis for much of the ongoing progress in issues of civil right and personal freedom. Every gain quite literally cost blood, sweat, and tears. Nobody just handed it to them.

To a very large extent, other groups have since reaped enormous benefits for themselves by agitating for me-too clauses to be added to the body of anti-discrimination laws -- laws that the original civil rights campaigners had finally won at the cost of their own blood. And why not? With the really tough battles against the most violent and entrenched enemies of equality basically won, it's actually pretty safe to be an equal rights activist nowadays, even if further victories still don't always pile up quite as fast as one might like.

Me, I'd reconsider this tactic of trying to shame blacks into supporting gay marriage. Gays have already benefitted greatly from the old civil rights struggles. So from here on, why not just try to make the case for gay marriage purely on the merit of the idea itself -- without resorting to cheapshots at those who are perhaps not automatically inclined to agree with you.

[cboy4]

136. I am pointing out an irony. And I'm entitled to my opinion about

a man who I believe has a lot of nerve supporting the oppression of gay people, when he's part of an oppressed race.

You sound like you know nothing about gay rights.

I suggest you read up on it a little (you know, how gay people can still be fired from jobs and declined housing,) before you lecture me about my tactics.

And ask Matthew Shepherd, the young man who was attacked and tied to a fence, how "it's actually pretty safe to be an equal rights activist nowadays."

If you want to not support human rights for all, that's your business.

However, your post is offensive from top to bottom, and I don't appreciate it.

[murloc]

146. Why Race? You never need to justify speaking negatively

about someone who is an asshole.

Assholes come in all colors.

I know that you didnt mean it offensively, and that you were only trying to be honest and forthright and with only good intentions....I really do. But there are folks who wouldnt give you the benefit of the doubt and read racist overtones into YOUR message.

[cboy4]

154. I am not criticizing him because he is African American. I simply

mentioned his race to point out an irony.

He is a minority who has suffered the pain of people suppressing his human rights.

Therefore, he is a hypocrite for supporting the oppression of another class of minorities.

He should know better.

Simple.

[Le Taz Hot]

150. For the record,

I requested this thread be locked. Too much bigotry on all sides. From the OP to a reference to women as "chicks" to a reference to "White people like it when . . . "

I had to double check to make sure I was still on DU.

[cboy4]

155. Well, there's a good reason it hasn't been locked. And that's

because I have a right, as a minority, to point out and criticize bigoted behavior of another minority who should know better.

Tony Dungy is a bigoted right wing fundamentalist Christian conservative.

And I couldn't care less what color of skin he has.

If you find this thread too stressful, there's a little box with an "x" which will help you hide it.

[BellaLuna]

157. "And I couldn't care less what color of skin he has."

this doesn't quite jive with your subject line in the OP.


Problem here is you are assuming Black people must all think alike. Just like any other group of folks, they don't. They have different views on various issues and can be dead wrong on things just like any other group of people. To begin this thread as you did shows you expect a certain type of reaction from the Black community regarding the gay marriage issue. Guess what? Black folks are no different than other humans - they can be blinded by their own beliefs.

The problem with the coach is he doesn't see it as a minority issue ,which is why he believes what he believes. He's coming at this as his fundie Christian attitude - not a Black man so expecting him to 'act' like a Black man in this case doesn't make sense.

[cgrindley]

159. Exactly

and to tell you the truth, I don't know why:

a) he isn't getting it;

b) he thinks that he is somehow "winning" this argument;

c) he thinks he's presenting a popular opinion or even an inoffensive opinion.

[cboy4]

162. Minorities are not allowed to hide behind the shield of religion

to oppress others.

And I will hammer them with criticism if they do it, thus this thread.

[cboy4]

161. I am not arguing that "Black people must all think alike."

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of a minority who thinks his minority group should not be discriminated against, yet it's fine and dandy for others to be discriminated against.

If one is oppressed, the right thing to do is to support equal rights for all minorities. (NO EXCEPTIONS, EVEN FOR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS)

And if one doesn't do it, then this minority (me) is going to point it out and criticize the person.

The Ku Klux Klan considers itself a religion and we all know how those horrible people feel about minorities.

[cgrindley]

163. Would you say

that KKK supporters are a minority in the US?

[cboy4]

165. OMG. No, I don't. I am providing an example of why it's NOT okay

to use religion as an reason to discriminate against minorities.

[Zenlitened]

158. It boggles my mind that a black man in America would stand up and say, essentially....

"Those people" don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us, and that's just the way God intended it!

I mean, here he is, a man rightfully lauded for breaking a discriminatory barrier... and yet he's in favor of maintaining discriminatory barriers?

It makes my head hurt, trying to comprehend how he can hold that view, and not be just floored by the obvious hypocrisy. :crazy:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

164. Are you saying it's worse when black people are homophobes?

because in addition to being bigots, they're hypocrites as well?

[cboy4]

166. You absolutely know I'm not saying that. In fact, there

are three white people who immediately come to mind (Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps) who are worse than any black homophobe I can think of.