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Vanity Fair Report: Officials say that, apart from being wrong, torture just doesn’t work

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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:01 PM
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Vanity Fair Report: Officials say that, apart from being wrong, torture just doesn’t work

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/12/torture200812


Tortured Reasoning
George W. Bush defended harsh interrogations by pointing to intelligence breakthroughs, but a surprising number of counterterrorist officials say that, apart from being wrong, torture just doesn’t work. Delving into two high-profile cases, David Rose exposes the tactical costs of prisoner abuse.
by David Rose WEB EXCLUSIVE December 16, 2008


<snip>

President Bush has said it works extremely well, insisting it has been a vital weapon in America’s counterterrorist arsenal. Vice President Dick Cheney and C.I.A. director Michael Hayden have made similar assertions. In fact, time and again, Bush has been given opportunities to distance his administration from the use of coercive methods but has stood steadfastly by their use. His most detailed exposition came in a White House announcement on September 6, 2006, when he said such tactics had led to the capture of top al-Qaeda operatives and had thwarted a number of planned attacks, including plots to strike U.S. Marines in Djibouti, fly planes into office towers in London, and detonate a radioactive dirty bomb in America.

...

Really? In researching this article, I spoke to numerous counterterrorist officials from agencies on both sides of the Atlantic. Their conclusion is unanimous: not only have coercive methods failed to generate significant and actionable intelligence, they have also caused the squandering of resources on a massive scale through false leads, chimerical plots, and unnecessary safety alerts—with Abu Zubaydah’s case one of the most glaring examples.

Here, they say, far from exposing a deadly plot, all torture did was lead to more torture of his supposed accomplices while also providing some misleading “information” that boosted the administration’s argument for invading Iraq.

...

Bush discussed Abu Zubaydah’s treatment in his 2006 announcement. “As his questioning proceeded, it became clear that he had received training on how to resist interrogation. And so the C.I.A. used an alternative set of procedures…. The procedures were tough, and they were safe, and lawful, and necessary.” Soon, Bush went on, Abu Zubaydah “began to provide information on key al-Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September 11.” Among them, Bush said, were Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged 9/11 mastermind, and his fellow conspirator Ramzi Binalshibh. In fact, Binalshibh was not arrested for another six months and K.S.M. for another year. In K.S.M.’s case, the lead came from an informant motivated by a $25 million reward.

As for K.S.M. himself, who (as Jane Mayer reports) was waterboarded, reportedly hung for hours on end from his wrists, beaten, and subjected to other agonies for weeks, Bush said he provided “many details of other plots to kill innocent Americans.” K.S.M. was certainly knowledgeable. It would be surprising if he gave up nothing of value. But according to a former senior C.I.A. official, who read all the interrogation reports on K.S.M., “90 percent of it was total fucking bullshit.” A former Pentagon analyst adds: “K.S.M. produced no actionable intelligence. He was trying to tell us how stupid we were.”
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:06 PM
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1. K&R
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Look at this, Solly Mack -- another already known revelation.
This is a consistent feature of the torture discussion.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It is! By design....Bless you!!!
Edited on Wed Dec-17-08 12:36 PM by Solly Mack
Oh, golly...you mean it doesn't work..well, we better not do it anymore then (until next time we decide to play dumb)

and the other one...IS water-boarding torture? We pretend we don't know the answer to that...pretend that it is subject still needing debate..... a matter of opinion....pretending we don't know established law

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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. They should have written "In ADDITION to being wrong, torture does not work".
I don't think that something being seriously, morally wrong should be an "aside". That structure makes the wrongness seem somehow unimportant.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Excellent point...
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Talking heads like McCaffrey said it RARELY works and that POSITIVE inducements..
are generally FAR more effective.
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sure it does
Punishment always deters.
Prayer is always answered.
Hard work is always rewarded.
That's how conditions are.
The rain may never fall till after sundown.
By eight the morning fog must disappear.
In short, there's simply not
A more deluded spot
For happily-ever-aftering than here
In Bush-e-lot.
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. If you read Naomi Klien, you'll get a slightly different perspective..
Torture does work, it just doesn't work as an intelligence gathering tool.

The real purpose of torture is to terrorize the population. At that goal, it works. Now, whether that population responds by submitting to the terrorist regime or by fomenting rebellion seems to depend a lot on the populace.

But torture does work, at terrorizing people.
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