Isnt this a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus Act?

[951-Riverside]

The first portion of the press release says:

The Morongo Basin office of the California Highway Patrol (CHP) in conjunction with the San Bernardino County Sheriffs Department and USMC Military Police, will conduct a joint sobriety/driver license checkpoint on Friday, December 12, 2008, somewhere in the unincorporated/incorporated area of San Bernardino County.

Isn't this a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act which forbids the Military from acting as law enforcement on American Soil?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

[MzNov]

1. Yes, it's clear, to us maybe

Here we go....

http://bbvm.wordpress.com/2008/12/14/domestic-militarization-comes-to-san-bernardino-county/

I was wondering when this was coming. How many more days left in the Facists regime?

This is just mind boggling, and we can bet Governator Meathead is giving his full Reich Wing support.


:grr: :grr:

[hendo]

9. Facist regime

Sorry, I knew someone who was killed by a drunk driver. We need more people at checkpoints, heck, we need more checkpoints. Not supporting staffing drunk driving checkpoints is supporting drunk driving by ommission.

Seriously, wtf. Do you want more people to be killed by drunk drivers?

[MzNov]

11. Who said anything about wanting more drunk drivers?

What the hell, don't you get posse comitatus?

Using marines on U.S. soil against U.S. citizens violates our Constitution, or it used to before Bush's Facist Regime. Or wait, maybe you don't think the Bush Crime Family and 8 years of hell is a facist regime.

If you think this move is about manning checkpoints, think again.

[hendo]

12. Read it again

"CHP... Will conduct a joint sobriety/driver checkpoint"

Way to jump to conclusions. And, as I pointed out, there is a loophole, entitled Section 1076:"Use of the Armed Forces in major public emergencies". It no longer violates the constitution.

And come on, by calling the bushies fascist you are crying wolf.

You are right, it isn't about manning checkpoints, it is about harrassing YOU and only YOU. Were they handing out extra tin foil hats this week?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hendo]

31. you have been alerted

I am not now, nor have i ever been a freeper. I do wonder about someone who throws around random accusations though.

[sarcasmo]

23. How is this a Public Emergency?

[shadowknows69]

19. I've had several friends die by drunk drivers

And you're an idiot.

[Bill McBlueState]

34. Wow, is this part of your final exam in Awful Internet Arguing Techniques?

Suggesting that someone who is opposed to this particular decision might want more people to be killed by drunk drivers is about as lame as it gets.

[jody]

2. Yes, see "§ 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus" link below

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001385----000-.html

QUOTE
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both
UNQUOTE

More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

[lynnertic]

3. I read here that the Posse Comitatus Act was nullified a year or more ago.

Off to do some searching...

[BattyDem]

4. I wonder if that will be used as a defense by those who fail the sobriety test

Any decent lawyer would at least try to use it, don't you think?

"By acting as law enforcement, the USMC Military Police was in violation of the law and therefore, any sobriety test they conducted was illegal. The results should be thrown out and the charges against my client should be dropped."

[stillcool]

5. Isn't it up to the Governor?

when the National Guard is used. Drunk driving must be a state emergency or something, no?

[Sherman A1]

17. The Marines are not part of the state guard

they are only under Federal jurisdiction. I therefore believe that this does violate the law.

[stillcool]

30. Oh wow...I didn't get that it was the Marines..

I hope those checkpoints aren't like the ones in Iraq.

[Bolo Boffin]

6. Is it possible that the military police are there only to take military personnel into custody?

I don't know. It's the only way I can think that it isn't a violation.

[unblock]

13. yes, but then what will we do for our weekly posse comitoutrage?

[nemo137]

18. It makes sense, I think, since 29Palms is in SB county.

Wouldn't it make sense to have MPs/SPs/Marine equivalent on hand to deal with military personnel?

[Eksess]

35. Aren't service people american citizens?

Service people are American citizens, subject to the same laws as everyone else. Unless these checkpoints are happening on base, then the military police really has no business there. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Jarheads can get locked up no problem in civilian jails by civilian police no problem, happened to my little brother when he was caught driving on a suspended license while he was stationed at Camp Lejeune.

Well, they can't really get locked up with no problem. Their commanding officers tend to get a little displeased.

[Canuckistanian]

7. It violates the spirit, if not the letter of Posse Comitatus

I've heard all kind of arguments that Marines are exempt from PC, and that it's "happened before".

But MOST democracies have laws preventing ANY national military branches from performing domestic law enforcement in ANY capacity, whether "symbolic" or not.

This is a breach of that trust.

[hendo]

8. no. There is a loophole.

Section 1076:"Use of the Armed Forces in major public emergencies".

The President may employ the armed forces... to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition... the President determines that... domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order... or suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such... a condition... so hinders the execution of the laws... that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law... or opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws



HOW DARE THE US TRY TO STOP DRUNK DRIVING!!! HOW DARE THEY!!

Seriously, get over it. This is an attempt to do drunk driving checks more efficiently. Or do you support the act of driving drunk?

[G_j]

14. the idea is not to have the military involved domestically

it really has nothing to do with alcohol.


:shrug:

[Selatius]

16. Define "serious." Apparently, Bush hasn't been able to define that word.

If you want to more efficiently bust DUIs, you'd better abandon sobriety check-points, simply because people would tell their friends where the checkpoints are and avoid them. You're wasting resources if you keep them up in light of that.

[sarcasmo]

24. Again, this is not an Emergency.

[Puregonzo1188]

10. Wasn't that repealed at the same time the Military Commissions Act was signed? (n/t)

[judasdisney]

15. this is literally called "Crossing The Rubicon"

[mmonk]

20. Laws are for losers. We have the unitary executive form of government

(dictatorship).

[Are_grits_groceries]

21. "Posse Comitatus" is now just a memory.

Thanks to the Warner Defense Act of 2007, Bush
pretty much can do as he pleases. And even if there wasn't
such an act, he probably would do some kind of signing.
I need a shoe!!

[surrealAmerican]

25. I thought that only applied to the National Guard, ...

... and it's not like they're declaring martial law here. I must have missed something.

[pinqy]

32. Not anymore

The part of the Warner Defense Act that expanded the President's ability to use Federal troops for emergencies was repealed in 2008.

[Political Heretic]

26. So, what are you going to do about it?

[wildbilln864]

27. It's just a goddamned piece of paper! nt

[surrealAmerican]

28. They're likely banking on the idea that by the time this is ...

... challenged in court, they will have already finished these stops.

[Are_grits_groceries]

29. (more info on subverting PC) Think Again: The Invisible Battle Over Posse Comitatus

<snip>
If Izzy was alive today, he might have spent some time with Section 1076 of the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007. And knowing Izzy, he would have paused just a few paragraphs into the $500 billion, 591-page bill as he noticed that it happen to undermine a centuries-old tenet of American law: the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which restricts the president’s ability to deploy the Army inside the United States.

Before the bill passed, the president could deploy troops inside the United States only if he invoked the Insurrection Act of 1807, which allows for deployment only “to suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.” The new law expands the list to include “natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition”—and such a “condition” is not defined or limited.

Lo and behold, President Bush has done just this, deploying an entire brigade from Iraq for domestic activities inside the United States. The 3rd Infantry Division’s 1st Brigade Combat Team has, since October 1st, been under the day-to-day control of U.S. Army North, the Army service component of Northern Command, as an on-call federal response force. Yet the mainstream media has raised nary an eyebrow at this striking expansion of presidential power taken in defiance of centuries of legal precedent—yet another in a series so large as to defy calculation.
<snip>
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/10/posse_comitatus.html

I wonder if anybody reads the bills that are written??

[pinqy]

33. Irony

You wonder if people read the bills that are written, but you seem unaware that HR4986 repealed the provisions of the Insurrection act (added in the Warner National Defense Act) that expanded the President's ability to use Federal troops.

As for 1/3ID, it makes sense. Active Duty troops were used in the Katrina aftermath, and otherwise in the past for emergencies (without violation of Posse Comitatus) so administratively it makes sense to have a brigade dedicated to domestic emergencies rather than a last minute pick as to who is available. It doesn't mean that they are any more legally able to act domestically than before. I'm not sure what exactly people think the difference is other than one of administrative control.

And to be technical, 1BCT 3ID is not "deploying" to the US...they are returning to their home station (Ft Stewart, GA)

And going back to the OP, this interview makes it clear that the Marines are acting as observers only and not arresting or stopping anyone.

[Winterblues]

36. Military Police used to be in most large airports.

They are there for Military personel that get out of hand. I suspect this might be the case with these road blocks as well. As long as all they deal with are military personel I suppose it isn't illegal.