My take on why a lot of people may be biased against unions..

[Fumesucker]

Generally, the less competent you are, the less competent you are to judge your own competence. It's well known that most people think they are above average at whatever it is they do and that often the very worst workers actually think they are among the best.

Unions in general reward seniority over competence, or at least that is the common perception.

Why would someone who feels more competent than their fellow workers support a system which they feel does not recognize and concomitantly reward their greater competence than their fellow workers?

Donning Nomex Underoos and waiting for the flames in 3.. 2.. 1..

[DonEBrook]

1. It's not just perception, it's an obvious fact. Another thing many people wonder is why

an unskilled worker who bolts on 50 taillight assemblys during a shift should make more money than a schoolteacher.

[baldguy]

3. I take it you've never worked on an assembly line.

[FreakinDJ]

6. You have No Clue

Senority Status does not apply when selecting who is promoted to foreman, ect ect...

and is merely a suggestion for lay offs aka: reduction in force

So YES - You are Drinking the RATpublican Kool Aid

[madokie]

18. Exactly, the cream always rises to the top, always

We must protect and nurture our unions, without them we would already be a third world country.

[FreakinDJ]

28. Without Unions .....

There would be....

No Worker Safty

No Medical Insurance

No Holidays

No Sick Leave

No Equal Pay for Equal Work

No Pension Funds or Retirement for that matter

The Non-Union sector OWES a Huge Debt to the Union Workers for fighting for their rights as a human being

[Bandit]

44. Didn't almost all of those things come about from FDR and his New Deal?

If I recall FDR was a Huge supporter of the worker and understood the importance of Americans having work with fair pay and protections..Remember during the Depression workers had zero protections in any area. Their bank accounts were not insuired, nor was their Health or job. FDR brought about FDIC and Workman's Comp and Minimum Wage, and OSHA to protect all workers and not just Union Shops.

[FreakinDJ]

49. None of those came from Government

They all came from the Collective Bargining table of the Unions

Some were later adopted by the Government so they could extend those rights to the Non-Union sector

[October]

101. Damned straight!

I'm tired of the union bashing.

They've hidden the real history and the good that unions have done for ALL workers in this country.

[eilen]

63. I think Nixon signed OSHA

it was created by Congress

[IsItJustMe]

112. Amen. Could not agree with your post more.

[DonEBrook]

17. I have supervised a few. I hope you aren't going to claim that they are comprised of

skilled workers...

[FreakinDJ]

30. That crap may work with Freepuketards.com

but here you'll need to qualify your statements with proof

I even doubt you have supervise any thing more then a crew of undocumented workers pulling weeds

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalhistorian]

92. And I take it you've never

been a teacher, as my parents were? If you were, you'd realize just how much more goes into teaching every single day. Not to say that assembly work is in any way easy, 'cause I've done it, but it doesn't compare to teaching. Period.

[nc4bo]

8. My good friend, who was a teacher mentioned this same argument..

and all I could tell her was that autoworkers are employed by a corporation or company that intends to make a profit, it's a business. OTOH teachers are are employed by their state governments and there is no profit to be made from educating students. Lame but I honestly didn't know what else to say.

Apples and oranges even though I agreed with her that good, dedicated teachers should be compensated much better for more reasons than I care to count.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

12. Tell her that many of the same people who loathe unions

Also loathe taxes and paying teachers.

[nc4bo]

16. Good point and I'll remember it. She really caught me off guard

and thinking fast is not my forte :S

So, appreciate what you said! :hi:

[blondeatlast]

23. So true. nt

[liberalhistorian]

90. My parents were both teachers who worked

very hard all of their lives and, believe me, they well knew that. Any teacher who doesn't know that has their head in the sand. And they started out teaching at a time when there wasn't an NEA or other education unions and conditions for teachers were often horrendous. They constantly had to remind younger teachers of that, since they had no idea of what it was like to teach before the unions and who, thus, took their benefits and conditions for granted and were often even anti-union. Few things pissed them off more than teachers who were anti-union and didn't join any of the unions and yet reaped the benefits of collective bargaining and resulting decent contracts, and actually expected those benefits automatically, having no clue that they were hard fought for and hard-won and that is was a never-ending struggle to retain and maintain them.

I'm sorry but teachers SHOULD make more than autoworkers. They should make a lot more than CEO's, athletes, actors, upper and executive management, Wall Street pigs, etc., etc. Teaching is the profession that makes all other professions possible.

[EstimatedProphet]

105. Is anyone here claiming that teachers make too much money?

I doubt there's many people on this board that wouldn't agree with the idea that teachers should be paid much more. But why did the thread turn into a competition between teachers and assembly line workers? The only people in this country that are overpaid are the superexecutives and the investment class. They're the one that need to make less.

[Raksha]

108. Right...many of the same people who loathe unions

loathe the teachers' unions above all! I deal with freeptards fitting that description on a regular basis on another forum all the time.

[FormerDittoHead]

77. The better educated you are, the more money you're LIKELY to make, the more taxes you'll pay...

...So there is a "profit" to be made from educating students.

Is there a positive cost benefit? (ie: does the person end up paying a greater amount of taxes for the added cost of say, a most basic education?) I don't know, but I'd imagine so.

But the fact is that Government does a LOT of things to ultimately increase tax revenue.

I'm not going to address the prior assembly line union worker versus teacher, but the counter argument isn't completely true.

[nc4bo]

82. It was my first thought.

I know you said you won't address auto vs teacher but that's the exact argument she was trying to make and one I really needed a quick response to.

Any increase in the worker's salary will be seen as a rise in cost of a car, most people grumble about it to the salesman and either buy the car or choose not to buy it.

Not so with teacher's salaries. The second you start telling people that their taxes are going to go up, even if it is a benefit education or to build more schools, and they will scream bloody murder. If the taxes go up high enough, some may choose not to buy a home in that particular school district.

Of course one can always send your child to private school but a private school is in the business of educating children and the parents can decide if they want to pay it or not, like buying a car. If the teachers need a higher salary, the school is free to raise it's tuition and parents can either find another school or send their child to public school.

Also children MUST go to school it's the law (I think ;)), none of us have to buy a car or send our kids to private schools and there is no law that says you must do either.

Not trying to argue, just trying to come up with good answers for her because I KNOW she will bring it up again as long as the Big 3 and the UAW are in the news.

BTW, she's a republican and voted for Mccain - help me :rofl:

[FormerDittoHead]

94. OK, try this.

First off, two premises.

The money we're talking about isn't a gift. It's my full understanding that these are loans, so technically, it's not SPENDING, it's LENDING. Low interest loans that they wouldn't be able to get otherwise, I understand, but let's keep things in perspective.

Next, one has to accept the premise of the effects of GM and Chrysler going out of business (Ford doesn't really seem to need the help). There are at LEAST hundreds of thousands of people, hundreds of BUSINESSES at risk. If you include local dealers, the effects would go all over the country.

OK, that's the premise.

But if all of these people and businesses go under, what TAX will they be paying? ZERO. I'm not even talking about the auto companies themselves, but everyone else up and down the chain.

So the alternative is to save a little money (and the figure pales in comparison to the finance bailout) and then lose a SHITLOAD of money in future revenue, or to shell out some now, keep people and businesses paying taxes, and get the loan(s) repaid.

I would agree that GM (and I don't care about Chrysler - that's a different show) has to make some serious changes, but I think this money is an excellent opportunity to get them to do it.

As for teaching, of course I think that college should simply be free and that we should pay teachers a living wage which will reward them for the added effort they make to become teachers.

[nc4bo]

96. Thank you FormerRushFan

I really appreciate you taking the time to break that one down.

It's difficult to argue against Fox, Rush the the Republican ideology. Some of the crap that comes over the airwaves is astounding and I could never understand why some would listen to it and take these talking points as gospel (no pun intended) without wondering what the other side has to say.

She's a good and kind person, educated, definitely not one of those stereotypical hate filled fools we've seen this election. She is ultra religious and can't seem to be able to take those blinders off for a 360 degree view of the world.

So again, thanks for helping me to dispel some ignorance! :patriot:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

15. Because the UAW is a stronger union than the NEA, but they both deserve a good wage

and respect--and a union.

[blondeatlast]

20. And why aren't teachers allowed to strike? I fully support that right for teachers.

BTW, both get weekends off, paid holidays, health care, vacations, education funding, etc.--thanks in overwhelmingly large part to the powerful manual labor unions of the US.

[ellenfl]

34. when did teachers lose the righ to strike?

when i was in high school (many years ago) our teachers walked out on strike. i spent 2 days at the beach. :headbang:

ellen fl

[gollygee]

56. There have been various laws written to keep public employees from striking

such as teachers, police officers, etc. The best bargaining tool they have is how essential their services are, so that's a huge blow to their ability to get decent compensation and raises.

[madmom]

62. Since ronnie raygun nobody can REALLY strike anymore because he fixed it

so scabs can now come in. That is something your UNION needs to fight for you.

[tbyg52]

72. Depends on whether your state has a *real* union or not. nt

[knitter4democracy]

88. Our last governor made it illegal in Michigan.

Michigan, the union state. It's that bad up here, too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Well I am a teacher who thinks a hard working assembly line worker needs to be paid fairly

And it is ridiculous to compare what I do to what auto workers do. We BOTH deserve fair pay. But our jobs are completely different so this is a silly argument.

[Greyhound]

25. In the first place, assembly line workers are not "unskilled" by any means.

Secondly, how do you justify your apparent belief that the factory worker's life is of less value than a teacher's?

In my life, one of the lessons I've learned is that there are very few easy jobs and those that do exist are generally reserved for offspring. There is no such thing as unskilled, if you're in a field picking strawberries or in an office analyzing a tome of spreadsheets, skill is required.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

40. Maybe because teachers are underpaid.

:think:

[GrantDem]

41. Agreed...

School teachers need a raise. This is not a race to the bottom.

[gizmo1979]

48. Then the school teacher

should make more.The auto worker shouldn't have to take a paycut.

[gollygee]

54. Schoolteachers are unionized too

and also get rewarded for seniority.

[recoveringrepublican]

66. the better question is "why DOESN'T a teacher make as much as an 'unskilled' worker"?

Don't get upset because an "unskilled" worker makes more than a teacher, get upset that teachers aren't paid more. You seem to want to divide us all instead of uniting us.

My husband is a supervisor with USPS. We have a friend is a teacher with a masters degree. She was livid when she read about how much my husband may make (he actually made more than what she thought, lol). She honestly was advocating that he be paid less because he never went to college. Stupid, that just drags us all down. She should be fighting for her wage to increase.

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. You found the shortcut!

It's easier to marginalize the labor of others than it is to make your own labor more valuable.

And no thanks, I don't want fries with that.

[tbyg52]

69. I *am* a schoolteacher, and I have no problem with that.

Actually, I think *both* of us should be making more money.... ;)

I don't think working on an assembly line sounds like a cushy job. I'd rather be doing what I do even if I were paid *less*.

[Radical Activist]

76. Or why a school teacher

who should have found another jobs years ago and treats children like garbage is paid much more than a new teacher who might still like the job and be good at it.

[rucky]

80. A pay raise for teachers is in order.

I'm sure that's what you were implying with that analogy ;)

[Blue_Tires]

86. uh...plenty of unskilled nonunion jobs pay more than schoolteacher...

and most teachers belong to a union of their own...

[JVS]

93. Teachers really ought to play hardball for more money.

With the emphasis on standardized testing, it would be really easy for teachers to intentionally ignore the test that is being taught to in order to fuck over the school's funding. They might want to let it be known that if they don't start getting a decent wage the kids are going to fail that test badly.

[Bill McBlueState]

97. I'd ask the NEA about that

People in both occupations are generally unionized. So it's hard to frame the disparity between autoworker and teacher pay as a flaw in the concept of unionization.

[October]

102. Teachers do damage, too...

Please.

We don't have to disrespect one worker over another.

I'm glad the bolts are on tight when I drive or fly, thank you very much. And as my spouse is a union airline pilot, we are grateful for all the machinists and other unionized airline employees who get the job done.

I can't stand the way some professions are sainted around here, while others are put down.

[IsItJustMe]

110. I would call you a name right now, but I am trying to be nice.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

111. Yup.

One of the biggest problems I have with unionization is the whole completely ridiculous seniority aspect. And I some unionized positions become way overpaid.

For example; in my company there is a union dishwasher making close to 6 figures because of year to year raises and his length of time in the company. He's slow and can't perform any other job other than load a dishwasher belt. Now I don't care how long someone's been in a company. NO ONE deserves to make almost 6 figures by being a dishwasher loader.

[gizmo1979]

2. That's true to a certain extent

The cream usually rises to the top.For one we're getting the best workers because the company pays more,secondly the more competent individuals gravitate to the more technical jobs.The rest of us agree to the trade off in job security because there isn't a large degree of difference in abilities.These are extraordinary times so the model gets stood on it's head and because of all the layoffs you have lots of people doing jobs they have never done before and it's a mess.However in the long run you come out ahead because more people know more jobs and it gives you flexibility.

[Fumesucker]

4. It's been my experience that often it is the scum which rises to the top..

I'm very poor at politicking and from what I've seen political ability will take you a lot further than mere competence at your job.

But then maybe I'm overestimating my own competence. :)

My daughter is dealing with a politically skilled but otherwise inept superior at her job right now, the woman is not competent at the job she has but she is very good at stroking the powers that be.

[DonEBrook]

19. You missed the obvious proof of your point: Hoffa.

:-)

[Snotcicles]

38. What do you mean, Hoffa?

[DonEBrook]

75. Scum rising to the top.

I guess the obvious isn't always obvious.

[MilesColtrane]

65. I believe his point was political ability matters more than job competence,...

...and Jimmy Hoffa is not obvious proof of that because I wasn't around to monitor how many strawberry crates per hour he could unload back in the day.

[gizmo1979]

42. That's where the union scheme

works.You don't have to kiss ass to keep your position.I'm also very bad at the politics game because I'm brutally honest,but because of the union I can say what I want.

[Double T]

5. Unions protect the worker, but at the same time unions should not........

contribute to the company's demise. Legacy costs for retirees are a HUGE problem. No one ever imagined health care would cost what it does today; health care costs are obscene and not affordable in their present form. Concessions must be made by unions in this 'new' economy; the current economy will be with 'us' for a very long time.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

14. What more concessions should they make?

You mention health care. Other than the old retirees volunteering for the Kevorkian treatment, what would you suggest? The only solution to it is national health care reform and the unions can't bring that about.

Edit: And you do realize that whatever concessions unions make vis a vis legacy costs, the costs will ultimately be borne by the U.S. taxpayer don't you?

[Double T]

81. BO is positioned to have a successful strong effort in getting some form of...........

national health care passed.

[gizmo1979]

45. So you throw the guys that fought

for you under the bus?

[Double T]

83. No. Would you prefer bankruptcy where the choices are fewer........

and decided by some sympathetic corporate loving judge?

[MilesColtrane]

70. Here's a concession.

Workers will give up their company paid health care if the government begins providing single payer universal health care.

Seems to me that all the big corporations together should be able to out-lobby the insurance and medical industries to get the government to handle their employees' health care.

Or, is it possible that they're just using those costs as an excuse to try and get concessions from the unions? Ya think?

[notadmblnd]

78. How bout we fight to bring the costs of health care down?

Oh that's right, it's easier to demand someone take less.

[Double T]

84. It would be much easier taking a meaty bone away from a pack of pit bulls.

The AMA, doctors, hospitals, HMOs and wall street won't give up their current parasitic target, our health care.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

116. Sounds About Right.

[kickysnana]

7. I taught my children about Unions, (including boycotting Hormel during a lockout)

But last night my 30 something sons pointed out that one of their wives MN teachers union has been backpedaling for years now and has not been of any assistance to her for 10 years, in trying to keep jobs in chaos, bidding on jobs when that failed, protecting benefits etc. After 10 years she expected some respect for her documented expertise, service under difficult circumstances. Instead they had cattle calls and speed interviews and appeared to be looking for who they could get cheapest, not best with no reply in her calls to the union.

They also pointed out that their Dad was thrown under the bus during deregulation of the trucking industry in the early 1980's by the Teamsters because he worked in the office. Even though the office/dispatch staff honored the truckers/loaders strike they did not return the favor and they sided with the company, negating his contract when he switched jobs due to a knee injury. He went into a depression which told them he blames for our divorce. His knee healed, the depression lifted, he retrained (better here then for unemployed people than now) and he got a job with a great company. We really loved each other but we both came with baggage some of which we knew a lot that we didn't realize would be a problem or actually didn't know about.

Their reply, unions are corrupt and cannot be fixed. They still listen and I repeated what I had said before is that alone a worker has no power, no chance. Part of working is the negotiation to get as much money as you can for your time and talent and the company has to try to get as little as they can. In good times some of the time it appears to be a matter of respect and fair play and when times are tough, protections are nonresistant, then you have to have to have labor united to make, yourself, the company and America strong.

[Mari333]

9. non union unskilled labour kills people

when my first husband joined the pipefitters union he had to pass a stringent series of tests , to qualify for apprenticeship. he was such a good welder he became supervisor . he could weld better then anyone . he welded containment units at nuclear plants. he was a strict adherent of OSHA standards, and he was adamant about OSHA standards being followed wherever he worked. he never missed a union meeting.
when reagan got into office, OSHA was ignored a lot, and management wanted to cut back, and hired a lot of non union workers at the chemical plant my husband worked at.
in 1989 the plant exploded. 12 workers were hurt and one was killed. the one killed was my husband.
the truth came out. non union personnel at low pay had been hastily trained and hired to work the control panel in the section where he worked. when the tank my husband was working on was about to explode, alarms went off in the system, but someone had turned off the switch. and no one was watching the control panel. (this all came out in the subsequent testimony)
he was worth every cent he made as a union man. every cent.
the plant is still there. no doubt they still hire unskilled labour to run the place.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. Oh my god I am so sorry!

It's gotten worse since then, I'm afraid to say.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Thank you for this, and please accept my condolences. n/t

[MilesColtrane]

71. The only reason I'll sit in an orchestra pit with several thousand pounds of speakers...

...rigged to the ceiling seventy five feet directly over my head is that I know they were put up there by an I.A.T.S.E. brother or sister.

Your sad story is an illustration of what happens when companies don't use the most skilled and experienced.

Sorry for your loss.

[anigbrowl]

104. But try joining IATSE if you don't know someone there

Now, I don't hold that against IATSE per se - I'm thinking of one specific local. I work in film, mainly doing sound. Three times in the last few years I've gone into the local union hall with my resume and list of equipment, and said I'd like to join up and pay dues. Each time I've seen the same guy and the first thing he tells me is 'we can't find jobs for you'. I point out I didn't come in there to get a job, but to be eligible for union work, to network and to develop myself professionally (eg by taking recommended courses), and expressed my willingness to pay dues. Each time I get told I can join when I get hired onto a union shoot. There aren't that many here so the point is rather moot, but (surprise) I don't usually get to hear about it when they do come to town.

Of course, if a film producer is an IATSE signatory, their contract doesn't allow them to hire anyone who's not a member (there are Taft-Hartley exceptions, but they're very limited and usually reserved for actors). I've been told I could write to the IATSE HQ about this, but honestly I have better things to do than get into a fight with the head of the local. I could tell you a bunch of similar/related stories from other people. I'm in favor of unions in principle because this is a pretty cut-throat business and they do negotiate on behalf of their members...but in some cases they're not very welcoming towards potential members.

[quickesst]

11. My take based upon personal experience...

I am pro union, but not all unions are created, or ran equally. I worked for an aluminum processing plant as a millwright for three years. When we decided to go union, our only option was the Carpenters Union, which had nothing to do with my line of work. During the two years I was a member, my weekly dues netted a quarter raise. Nothing changed dramatically with wages, safety, and benefits. For the last eighteen years, I have been a metal stud mechanic/drywall installer. About ten years ago, the same carpenters union made the attempt to bring us into their organization. They used a very busy time for us to put one of their "moles' into our company. This person did nothing but spread dissent, rumors, and ill will toward our employers in an effort to make them out as villains, and the union as heroes. During my interview with the union reps, it became clear to me that their interests were the priority over my own. I do not do carpentry work. I frame metal studs for commercial buildings. Completely different. I was not going to end up in some union hall, waiting for the reps to take care of their "good ole boys" first, then end up somewhere away from home framing up concrete forms. We soundly rejected the attempt, with the exception of two employees who thought they saw a brighter future with this union. In less than a year, both were back pleading for their old jobs back. My bosses, being the decent men they are, welcomed them back, judging them on their character, and skill, and not holding the union stint against them. We make a decent wage for the area, have free health insurance, and if ever in a financial bind, can count on them for the help we need, paying it back according to our means. I don't want to do away with unions, as they are the glue that holds workers nationwide together. I simply want people to understand that not all unions are beneficial, and not all of them have the workers best interests in mind. If I worked at an auto plant, I would gladly sign on. I just won't sign on when my family's welfare is secondary to the union's interests. I'm a democrat, and I support the democratic agenda, but that doesn't mean I support the Illinois governer simply because he belongs to our party. Thanks.
quickesst

[Doremus]

59. Millwrights belong in the Ironworkers union, no?

It sounds like you're saying unions are good for everybody else but you. Come to think of it, that was the OP's point wasn't it? Anyway, you might want to be slightly more skeptical of that employer of yours. When the chips are down they are going to cover their own ass, not yours. Count on it.

BTW, you happened to mention the most common anti-union response I hear: union dues. Invariably the next complaint is how bad the union is. My response: Then why didn't you work to correct it? And where else are you going to buy legal representation for a few bucks/mo?

[snooper2]

115. BEST POST IN WHOLE THREAD

:hi:

I'm in the Telecom industry and the only workers unionized now are old school Bell Central Office and Field Techs. I worked for Worldcom and when we bought MCI with our funny-money ( Bernie E. ) I had to work with the MCI Central Office techs, who were union.

Fucking cracked me up- I'd call and ask for a card on a frame-relay switch to be reset. The guy would say- I only swap out FXS cards :rofl:...he'd pass me upstairs to some other guy who would only touch the DCS. Finally found a "Data" guy...

I just need a pair of hands and these guys have their contracts- I will only touch this.

I think Unions are good in certain trades but not others....

[RDANGELO]

13. I 'I have never worked in a union.

I really don't know what it's like to work with a union. but it does occur to me that it would be in the their best interest to weed out incompetent workers. The union movement was instrumental in bringing a middle class to this country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. It is the employer's responsibility to weed out incompetent workers, not the union's

The union's role is to make sure the employer follows the rules as they weed out those workers.

The union plays no role in hiring workers and workers don't become incompetent overnight. You are expecting the union to do the employer's job. That's nuts.

Another important point to remember is that if employers treated workers fairly, we wouldn't need unions.

[GrantDem]

43. DING, DING, DING

Winner...

[blondeatlast]

52. EXACTLY. It can be done in union shops, it just has to be done methodically--

which protects the rest of us.

[JVS]

89. That's not entirely true.

Trade unions (electricians, carpenters, etc.) often take on the task of educating workers in the trade they represent.

[bobd0]

21. Do you actually believe there aren't slouches in non-union environments that benefit from

years of service?

I could name a half-dozen CEO's that do off the top of my head and they definitely aren't union members. They belong to a good old boys' network that should be of far more concern to Americans than workers uniting to seek better wages and working conditions.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

39. Dumbya was the CEO of a few companies IIRC. nt

[bobd0]

51. Excellent example

and proof that a single well-placed moron can do more damage than all of labor, both organized and unorganized combined.

[blondeatlast]

50. Very true--and there are many companies whose competitors are hurting

that are remaining profitable precisely because they AREeN'T old-boy network proteges.

Southwest Airlines
CostCo
In 'n Out Burger (a starting wage of $10 an hour? WOW.)

[stray cat]

22. Some workers are more competent than others - thats beyond doubt

in almost any profession. It is nice when competence and hard work is recognized over someone who is barely getting by or even having to have other people do their work for them. I like being able to reward hard work and competence in a person. Not to say I don't value unions for increasing overall protection of workers but I don't believe every profession has to be unioninized.

[rurallib]

26. 70 years of constant negative image in the M$M may have something

to do with creating a bias against unions. Creating a climate for unions to be hated and scorned I think may have a lot to do with it. And in recent years, domination in all forms of media especially hate radio and so-called "news" programs have given those opposed to unions an almost unfettered and unchallenged vehicle for spewing their hate and lies.
BTW ever listen to NPR? When they cover anything on unions it is usually in a negative light. About the only place to get news on unions in a favorable light is to go to a labor news website.

[randr]

27. The same thing that was done to the left in the 60's

The freepers took the union scandals and made that the model for future discussion. The same thing happened with the left. Portrayal of the left as violent radical hippies, thanks to very selective video of protest marches and the actions of radical groups, followed the same path. Environmentalists had the same treatment by the so called "liberal" press and were labeled as "tree huggers", a term consistent with the "bleeding heart" meme.
The right has been very successful in not only labeling but in making the fake imagery of their supposed enemies stick in the minds of Americans.
I am convinced that the conservative mind relies on myth and false images to paint their interpretation of reality.
The rest of us are always left scratching our heads in wonder when the obvious needs to be "proven" and still is held to debate as if the sun coming up in the east were open to discussion.
My hope is that a new day of human evolution is upon us and that the veils of illusion will dissolve, exposing the mysteries that surround us.

[Snotcicles]

29. Unions are the agent of collective bargaining. Collectively you as employees

have equal leverage when it comes to negotiating work rules, wages, fringe benefits, grievance procedures. etc. It is the one instrument that the worker has that employer must engage and respect.
The Employee Free Choice Act :applause: will ensure that those people who choose to Collectively bargain with their employer at least have the opportunity to vote for representation.
All this Bullshit being slung around about UNIONS is being manufactured by the thugs like DeMint, Corker, McConnell/Chao, Shelby and the Chamber of Commerce to squelch the attempts to strengthen collective bargaining for employees.

[blondeatlast]

37. does the EFCA (which I enthusiastically support) include any

"concessions" (not really what I mean, but can't come up with a better term at the moment) for public employees?

The fact that public employees face so many restrictions is why Post 1's argument is moot, IMHO.

[Snotcicles]

46. Are you referring to government employees? nt

[blondeatlast]

55. Yes. I admit I haven't read the exact bill carefully. I'm an AFSCME

alum, myself.

[Snotcicles]

57. My Mom was in AFSCME, great pension. nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

33. Why the FUCK are there so many DUers who dis working people?

I know it's not the case for most here, but inevitably an OP like this will attract one or two people who think X class of workers is paid to much because Y class doesn't make as much, therefore X should take a pay cut. :wtf:

Some people here won't be happy until everyone is making minimum wage with no benefits. Usually we call people like that "Republicans" or "Freepers", but for whatever reason some so-called progressives feel the same way.

[bobd0]

53. Must be the southern DUers. nt

[snooper2]

117. .

[bobd0]

125. Must be your southern grandma. She must be a southern senator too. nt

[Joe Fields]

47. That does not exclusively apply to union workplaces. You've just described

every workplace in America.

[bobd0]

60. I've worked in union and non-union environments in labor and management roles

and that describes all of them.

However, union workplaces always had better working conditions, were safer, paid better, had better benefits, and you couldn't be fired at the whim of management. At least your job was guaranteed as long as you met performance standards. Union shops I worked in monitored labor performance and set work rules I never heard of in non-union environments. Union shops I worked in were more productive than non-union. And where did this myth of the worker who can't be fired begin? People generally got one or two chances to shape up or they'd be gone, union or not. And in later years union shops all had a two-tier system with a lengthy probationary period that weeded out potential slackers. If you didn't make the grade you were gone before you got anywhere near top rate and benefits.

Of course there are slackers but there are slackers everywhere -- many rising far beyond the limitations of their work ethic and skill set. But to portray unions as havens of slackers is inaccurate and an indication of a basic bias against organized labor.

People forget what working conditions and pay were like before organized labor lifted American workers out of the middle ages.

[Joe Fields]

64. Well stated. It's been my experience, and my background is extensive.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

58. Union workers' pay is determined by collective bargaining.

The employer agrees to pay wages negotiated by a representative of the union on behalf of all of the members. To say that an auto worker isn't "worth" as much as a schoolteacher and therefore shouldn't be paid as much is meaningless. The worker is "worth" whatever his/her union was able to negotiate. Teachers' unions are constrained in their negotiations by the fact that state budgets, where teachers' salaries come from, are limited. Airline pilots, who are also mostly unionized, are paid a lot more than auto workers (though not by as much as they used to be). Their "value" is based in part on the amount of education and training required of them, but ultimately what they get paid is based on what the union can negotiate in consideration of the funds the employer had to pay them with. Some pilots took up to 50% pay cuts and loss of their pensions a few years ago when their airlines filed bankruptcy.

If you think assembly line workers don't "deserve" $28 an hour with health benefits and a pension and it's all the unions' fault that they are so absurdly overpaid (which they're not -- that's not wealth by any means), keep in mind that it's not a matter of what somebody "deserves" in the abstract, but what the employer agreed to pay as part of the collective bargaining process.

And there's just a little bit of classism involved here, too, IMO. Some of us hoity-toity college-educated types just don't think a guy who turns a wrench for a living ought to live as well as we do...

[bluedawg12]

61. Workers must have collective bargaining, there is no way to deal with

corporations as an individual - none. They hold all of the power, they make the rules, they keep the employee "performance" record and without unions and collective bargaining workers would be serfs.

[LWolf]

73. Perception is not always accurate.

Guaranteeing a fair wage, reasonable working conditions, and fair treatment is worth a lot.

Competition, while admittedly a national obsession, is not appropriate for every endeavor and does not always result in the best long term consequences.

As someone who wants to see a job that offers reasonable hours and working conditions, and a living wage, for every single person who wants to work, guaranteeing job protections are more important to me than "beating" someone I work with.

Collaboration to achieve the best outcome, rather than competition to raise my own expectations, while lowering others', is more effective in the big picture, and long term, in my opinion.

Competition perpetuates SES divisions. It doesn't narrow them.

I guess it all depends on the goal. If it is the goal to climb on the backs of others, while tossing perceived "opponents" down the slope behind you, to reach the "top," then competition is fine. A few will rise to the top, the majority will sink to the bottom and stay there. Where they belong, right?

If your goal includes the good of all, not just that elite that will rise to the top, then competition is counter productive.

Those at the top have the assets, the resources, and many strategies that enable them to maintain their positions by limiting the rest. I'm not one of those people. However far I've managed to climb, I do so with and for my peers, not in order to "beat" them.

I AM, according to my superiors, my peers, and my clientele, more competent than many of my peers. I prefer to mentor, and to lead, as one of them. I prefer partnership and collaboration to help lift the competency of all, rather than a designation that sets me apart; that automatically causes division. I can achieve the bigger goal of lifting all without "merit pay."

My seniority counts, and it should. Experience is valuable. It's not surprising that a culture that worships youth and fears age, that does not honor the elders of the culture, is vulnerable to attacks on "seniority."

I'd love to see our general population able to see beyond "common perception" to the underlying foundations of issues, and the overarching bigger, long-term goals behind various philosophies.

[Dappleganger]

74. I've personally struggled with unions in general...

because of the experiences growing up with my father being in a union, then out, then finally back in again. It was the CWA, Dad went to work for Bell Atlantic (now part of AT&T) after he got out of the Navy. First he joined thinking it was a great idea, but there a lot of problems with his local level in regards to their leadership. Then he got out and when it came to contract time our house and cars were egged, bricks thrown through the front window and of the car, dog shit thrown against the house and a LOT of prank phone calls during that time (which of course mysteriously stopped as soon as negotiations ended). My sister and I were SCARED of these people! Dad finally rejoined the union just to keep us SAFE. He is retired from the phone company now and his benefits decrease every year, so I'm not sure how well they've been able to help him over the long haul (and understand that's due to management).

Nowadays I am definitely pro-union because of everything I've see in the manufacturing environment, with jobs going out of the US due to NAFTA and wages not keeping up with the high cost of living. I really wish that my husband could be in a union to represent our interests--his hard work helps save his company millions (literally) of dollars every year! We really are left out in the cold it seems.

So, I can see both sides--some people have a hard time changing their minds, too. But I do think that overall unions need to have better PR so that people will see that they pro-worker=pro AMERICA.

[NNN0LHI]

79. I think the problem is many people just "think" they are more competent ...

...than their fellow workers when actually they are just better at sucking up to the boss than everyone else. Kind of like delusions of grandeur. Their fellow employees just want to do their job and be able to look their wife and kids in the eye when they go home from work with their dignity intact knowing they didn't have to suck some bosses ass to get ahead of their fellow employees that day. Unions make sucking the bosses ass a thing of the past. There is no gain in doing it. Except brown lips.

But yes I agree there certainly are some anti-union workers who don't want all those years of big time brown nosing to go to waste.

Could that be it?

Don

[Fumesucker]

85. First, I didn't mean to start an OP and then just leave but something unexpectedly came up IRL

Second, yes I put in my OP that often the less competent you are the less competent you are to judge your own competence.

I've skimmed through the replies and haven't seen many people address what I'm actually talking about, that the majority of people think they are more competent at their job than they actually are and those people are likely to see a union as an impediment to their rising more rapidly through the company than their (in their mind) less competent coworkers.

[surrealAmerican]

87. I think it's far simpler than that. It's jealousy.

Non-union members have none of the protections, and they don't like that some people are being treated better than they are.

[JVS]

91. There also could be turned off by a certain "screw you, I've got mine" attitude that some union...

members display.

It's a two way street.

[readmoreoften]

95. I've never seen that attitude. More like, start a union, we'll help...

but then again, lots of folks just want to whine about how impossible it is for them to strike and union folks have zero respect for that.

[Fumesucker]

99. There was a post in LBN a few days ago..

Research has shown that even dogs understand the concept of fairness.

When some people are treated better than others there is definitely a fairness issue involved.

[Romulox]

106. Maybe they should a study to see how dogs respond to SCAPEGOATING

If there is a "fairness" issue here, wouldn't it be executive pay vs. worker pay?

[Fumesucker]

107. All I'm pointing out is how some people may *see* things..

I don't know if I'm right, although I suspect I am to some extent.

I fully expected to be attacked, see the final sentence in my OP.

[Romulox]

118. They *see* what's on their TV, and not much more.

"I don't know if I'm right, although I suspect I am to some extent."

If your analysis of "fairness" stops at worker v. worker comparisons, and yet omits any analysis of worker v. management (or region v. region, for that matter,) I expect you are finding what you want to find. :hi:

It just bears mentioning that "fairness" analysis that omits any mention of class inequality, for example, is of limited utility in understanding why Americans gleefully revile working people.

[Fumesucker]

121. *I* know all those things..

Mostly because I'm online constantly and am a political junkie.

But face it, as you pointed out, most Americans are not particularly well informed.

Also, I'm one of those "working people" that you worry about so much.

Edited to add: I remember getting in heated discussions about unions with extreme anti union people around the time of the Patco strike so I'm not exactly new to this subject.

[Romulox]

119. PS-- You need to grow a thicker skin if you want to post here..

"I fully expected to be attacked, see the final sentence in my OP."

Who is attacking you? :shrug:

[Fumesucker]

120. If you read the entire thread you will see that my OP has been consistently misread

As being the way *I* feel about things.. It's not.

And I cut my online teeth on the usenet political newsgroups that make DU look like nap time at the preschool.

[Fleshdancer]

98. I admit that I was biased against unions when I was younger...

and this was due to my ignorance. Unions aren't common where I'm from (TX) so I never knew anyone who was a union member. Although my parents never had a negative thing to say about unions, it seems like everyone else did.

It wasn't until my first college economics course that I actually learned anything about unions. I quickly realized that my initial thoughts on the matter were completely wrong. Unions are what made the middle class possible in this country.

[October]

103. Nice post!

I've often wondered about the mindset of those opposed to unions.

Usually, I reach the conclusion that it's just a subject we haven't taught very well (in this country). Unions are too often portrayed in a dark, unsavory light -- and most people don't understand that all the health, vacation, pension, and other benefits come directly from "collective bargaining."

[Doctor_J]

100. 50 years of intense media bias may have something to do with it too

Big Media owners detest unions and make no bones about that hatred in their reporting.

[IsItJustMe]

109. They use to force children down into coal mines to work 12 to 16 hours a day before the unions came

along.

What say you?

[Fumesucker]

114. I say that Americans have the most encyclopedic knowledge of history

Of any nation on the planet.

[IsItJustMe]

124. LOL

Yes, it is kind of cold out side.

[Romulox]

113. Occam's Razor: people are greedy, short-sighted, and reflexively selfish.

No need to tie one's self into conceptual pretzels to figure out why people oppose unions: because they feel it is in their interests to do so (typically meaning they feel they can gain in the short term by screwing over their fellows...) :hi:

[Fumesucker]

122. That's pretty much what I said..

In slightly different words..

[deaniac21]

123. The mob connections don't help.