Fitzgerald couldn't get an indictment?

[Timefortruth]

Why did Fitzgerald use a criminal complaint to arrest Blagojevich rather than an indictment?

Yeah, I know it is heresy to suggest that Fitzgerald is anything less that Clark Kent, and it naturally follows that Blagojevich is Darth Vader (excuse the mixed metaphor), but the group think on this issue is out of hand.

It is possible that Blagojevich is a bad actor AND Fitzgerald couldn't nail him within the process, so Fitz chose to abuse the system? Don't we need the good guys to play by the rules too? If they don't, aren't we all at risk?

[whippo]

1. Why is a criminal complaint "less than" an indictment?

Why would a criminal indictment put us all at risk?

[Timefortruth]

5. An indictment requires a grand jury

The prosecutor must present evidence that there is probable cause a crime has been committed, if convinced, the grand jury indicts. The joke is that the standard is so low the prosecution can normally get an indictment of a ham sandwich. However, if there is no there there, grand juries occasionally don't issue the indictment. It is a check against prosecutorial abuses. Not much of a check, but it was required in the Constitution for a reason. Normally, it helps the government because they can use the grand jury as a means to issue subpoenas as well.

There is something amiss in this story. It reminds me of the Spitzer fiasco. The guy is guilty, but the targeting is suspicious.

[pnwmom]

13. And because he still needs to either get an indictment or

the Court needs to hold a preliminary hearing within 20 days.

[leftofthedial]

2. he certainly has more guts going after Blago

than he showed avoiding Dick Cheney's shadow.

[Changenow]

3. Blag was indicted. nt

[Timefortruth]

7. No, he wasn't. nt

[jody]

11. "MR. FITZGERALD: First of all, there's not an indictment, I realize. It's a complaint. So I don't

want people to understand it's an indictment. We've filed a criminal complaint. And I'm not going to get into where things stand, in the Senate seat, other than that we've -- there's an ugly episode that we've aired.

We've brought charges. We'll proceed. And the public discourse will go its way without our guidance."

Source: http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/12/fitzgerald_press_conference_on.html

[Timefortruth]

14. So?

What does that explain?

[jody]

16. So what! I merely gave Fitzgerald's press release. n/t

[Timefortruth]

33. Thank you.

But how does it answer my original question?

[jody]

51. I replied to #3, not to your original question to which I have no answer. n/t

[JI7]

4. i never thought Fitzgerald was all that but i didn't need him to know that Blago is corrupt

you might have a point. but i'm not going to defend Blago .

[Timefortruth]

6. That's just it

Blagojevich was an easy mark, why the rush?

[Sgent]

8. Time

He was trying to prevent Blag from advancing his scheme, and Blag indicated on the tapes he would appoint someone before Christmas.

[Timefortruth]

10. Plenty of time for an indictment.

I bet you a dollar there is a grand jury out there that refused to indict.

[Critters2]

12. No. If there were a grand jury seated and hearing this case the media

would've covered it. There's no way he could've, or would've, kept that secret. Everyone knew when Ryan's grand jury was convened.

I think it was a matter of timing. He wanted Blago stopped before he named a Senator. Fitz also mentioned in his presser that the grant to Children's Memorial was "sitting on the governor's desk". He wanted the arrest before Blago could kill that, too.

[Timefortruth]

15. Bullshit. Grand juries convene secretly all

the time. Quite successfully, as well.

[Critters2]

18. I don't know where you live, but that would not have happened in Chicago. nt

[Oldtimeralso]

45. I Can Tell You

From personal experience that Grand Juries can work in secret even in C(r)ook County in the great state of Illinois.

[jbnow]

53. Nothing seems strange to me. Fitzgerald has been investigating

Gov B for a few years and the slower pace for the main guy didn't surprise me either. He went through 60 Ryan associates before he got Gov Ryan, he builds up and tries to get the wider network too.

I'm sure the larger investigation continues and many of the charges on the affidavit could have been succesfully taken to a grand jury...but they learned Blagojevich was racing to fund-raise $2.5 million from those with big state contracts...because new state ethics law would curtail the ability to fund raise with that group. Hearing of his (corrupt) plans and actions they got the wiretap started in late October and that is when they learned of the Senate seat scheming.

That changed everything. They were picking up many other Pay to Plat schemes through the taps and his His normal way would be to keep gathering evidence, let the crime unfold...but Obama already resigned his seat and I think Fitz was right that this had to be stopped before it happened, before someone was named to replace him or problems would be compounded.

So he went affidavit for the sake of immediacy. The Senate things could still be defended by swearing it was all big talk, he hadn't done or demanded anything, depending on other evidence he has or gets maybe he won't be charged with them but making it public sure put a stop to it. I think he made the right choice

[jazzjunkysue]

17. He needed to head off whatever else was coming down the pike, pronto.

This mess is going to require alot of time to untangle. So many people involved.

[Critters2]

20. That's my guess. In fact, Fitz was pretty clear about that in the press conference. nt

[gkhouston]

49. There may be something not even hinted at in the complaint that he wanted to forestall.

Too early to know what the hell is going on right now.

[blondeatlast]

60. I think so too. nt

[AZ Criminal JD]

26. I'll take your bet for more than a dollar.

[Orsino]

56. But now Blagojevich is radioactive...

...while Fitz tries for that indictment. It's much less likely that he can make the sale.

Sounds good?

[H2O Man]

9. If you were to

venture a guess on the best reason he had, what might it be?

[Timefortruth]

22. Fitzgerald couldn't convince a grand jury

Either he tried and failed, or knew it wasn't worth the risk.

There are major inconsistencies in Fitzgerald's story if you think about it, most importantly regarding Jackson Jr.'s culpability. If JJ Jr. didn't make the offer, there was no possibility that Blagojevich was influenced by the possibility.

[H2O Man]

25. While I know

that you are saying that you think this, I had asked if you could do a simple exercise. Rather than identify what you believe are the bad reasons, can you identify the best reason?

[Timefortruth]

30. Since I've already questioned St. Fitzgerald,

I'm on very thin ice, so it might be best to simply ask the question.

[H2O Man]

32. Actually,

it is good to question everything. No matter if a person likes or dislikes Mr. Fitzgerald -- or is somewhere in between -- questioning is an important part of rational thinking and is essential for democracy. I'm not attempting to say that you shouldn't question this -- just the opposite.

[Timefortruth]

36. Yeah, the subject is touchy

There is a blind adoration of Fitzgerald, so it's easy to become defensive. My apology.

[H2O Man]

38. No problem at all.

I do respect Mr. Fitzgerald .... enough so, that there are things I disagree with him on.

In this case, I suspect -- and this is nothing more than speculation on my part -- that he did so due to time. He can still bring this to a grand jury, though he does not have to. I think that, based upon his past record, there is a good chance that he will.

[Timefortruth]

39. It is just his record that bothers me

He didn't do all that hot a job on the Wilson prosecution. No King Fish were caught.

[H2O Man]

41. Scooter Libby

was the third most powerful person in the administration. I'd add that we do not know if he asked the grand jury to return an indictment against VP Cheney or not. We do know that he signaled for Congress to investigate Cheney's role. Many things that are not outright crimes are still abuses of the power of office, and as Nixon found out, are grounds for impeachment.

I do wish that Cheney had been charged, no matter the potential outcome in criminal court.

[Timefortruth]

44. How does Scooter become third?

You are right that we don't know the whole story, but what we do know is fairly damning.

[H2O Man]

46. What three positions

did Libby hold?

To convict Cheney in criminal court, it would have been important to have Libby's cooperation. Otherwise, Cheney's attorneys could have argued that there was reasonable doubt regarding if he actually encouraged Libby to mention Plame. Considering how the jury in the Libby trial spoke after they delivered their verdict, it is fair to say that the average person on a jury of this sort viewed things differently than those who had studied the case more carefully.

[Timefortruth]

47. How was Scooter the third most

powerful administration official?

[H2O Man]

48. What three positions

did he hold in the administration?

[Timefortruth]

52. You said, " Scooter Libby was the third most powerful

person in the administration."

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

[H2O Man]

54. Do you know

the three job titles that he held in the administration?

[bahrbearian]

58. No I don't know the three titles he had, just tell us.

[Timefortruth]

61. He was Cheney's COC at the time he

was indicted, but I'm not sure that made him the third most powerful man in the administration.

[bahrbearian]

62. I don't get it either.

Third most powerful man won't have been one of their fall guys.

[H2O Man]

63. He wasn't a "fall guy."

Libby held three positions at once in the White House: he was VP Cheney's chief of staff; Cheney's national security adviser; and an assistant to President Bush. No one person has ever had that amount, nor range, of power in a White House before (except obviously presidents). To better appreciate how and why Cheney and Libby set this unique circumstance in motion, I'd recommend "Angler," by Barton Gellman.

In essence, Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby had access to every single paper that would cross Bush's desk, before the president saw it. More, they had the ability to edit and remove information. Unheard of.

Libby, as we know from sources ranging from Wilson to Newsweek to Corn & Isikoff, had the ability to go to CIA headquarters -- by himself, with Cheney, or with un-elected Newt Gingrich -- and to pressure senior analysts to change their reports. No one else in the White House (except Cheney) could do this.

Along with Cheney, Libby ran the OVP's own neoconservative "intel agency," which brought about: (a) the Plame scandal; and (b) the Franklin/AIPAC espionage scandal. Keep in mind that under AG Ashcroft, the Plame investigation was being dragged out. It wasn't until James Comey appointed Patrick Fitzgerald that anything substantial happened. This was because veteran FBI investigator Jack Eckenrode suggested prosecuting Libby for lying to investigators, then pressuring him to avoid a long prison sentence, by testifying what Cheney's role had been. This was going as planned, until President Bush commuted Libby's prison sentence.

Despite the fact that a neoconservative who worked for the OVP intel operation has pleaded guilty to engaging in espionage, and two AIPAC operatives (one with a history in the intelligence community, including CIA security clearance), in a case where military intelligence involving Iran was shared with a third country, our media ignores the scandal. The two (ex-)AIPAC officials have been able to delay their trial, using "grey-mail," for over four years. That trial threatens to expose Condi Rice's role in the scandal.

Although Libby was not in the public spotlight in the manner of a Karl Rove, one could not make a serious case that Rove had the background or ability to do the things that Libby did. As Joe Wilson noted in his book, Libby actually tasked Rove with assignments. The guy had an unwarrented amount of power.

[bahrbearian]

65. Then why wasn't Rove the fall guy?

Was he being protected by Chimpy, you'd think Snarly would have thrown Rove under the bus.

[H2O Man]

66. Because Rove's access

to Plame's identity was through Libby. He did not have access to it otherwise. It is worth going back to Wilson's book, however, to review that Rove became furious with Cheney and Libby when he was informed that he may have violated a federal law by completing the task he was assigned.

[bahrbearian]

67. Thanks for clearing it up for me. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

19. they thought that Blago was going to make his announcement yesterday re: Obama's replacement...

and fitz decided that that COULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.

[Occam Bandage]

21. Because they were concerned that Blago was about to make his appointment,

and did not want him to taint a United States Senate seat. An indictment would have required more time.

[Crabby Appleton]

23. Fitzgerald wanted to stop crimes in progress

The government now has 20 days to either hold a preliminary hearing on the case or bring an indictment.

[shimmergal]

24. All these reasons may be valid, but

we very much need to have that Senate vacancy filled by the time the new Congress convenes.
Preferably by a Democrat. Some of the alternate ways might work out OK, but... as I understand it, the Lt. Gov. can't take office till Blago resigns or is removed, and how long will it take the Legislature to change the rules for filling a vacancy like this? Timeliness is important too.

[BadGimp]

27. I heard this argument today on this point...

All Fitz was really trying to do was derail a horrible political crime.

Not sure if it has merit but that's what I heard from a guy who knows a guy who used to live in Chicago but is not really an informed source :)

[Timefortruth]

31. And Jackson would have been

a horrible outcome?

There is a missing piece here.

[unblock]

28. my guess is that the grand jury route takes longer

and time is of the essence when a senate appointment could happen at any time.

[mopinko]

29. the guy has been under investigation all this time, and no indictment?

sorry, i think blaggo is a nut, and a crappy governor, but if they had the goods, they would have brought them.

[Critters2]

35. Again we hear from the 13%. nt

[mopinko]

37. the 13%

who believe in the rule of law and the sanctity of elections. sure, throw that shit against the wall, see if it sticks. slime the whole democratic party of illinois. sure, why not. maybe we can get a gropenator of our very own.

[Critters2]

40. How did I slime the whole Democratic Party of Illinois?

Even before yesterday, Blago had a 13% approval rating. There are a lot more Dems in Illinois than that. Even most Dems could see what he is. 13% of the state could not.

[mopinko]

42. back to ignore with you.

ok, you didn't slime the whole party, just all those north of rt 80, and east of rt 39.
plonk.

[Critters2]

43. I slimed the 13%. That's you, and what 4 other people? nt

[book_worm]

34. Time. According to what I heard yesterday on news Fitz was going to wait until Spring but then the

senate seat situation came up so he decided it was best to act now.

[Olney Blue]

50. Fitzgerald will be able to get the indictment.

[WillowTree]

55. I don't know exactly how it works at the Federal level,

but on the State level in Illinois more often than not indictment comes after the arrest unless the prosecutor needs a Grand Jury to issue investigative warrants etc. Fitzgerald didn't need a Grand Jury to investigate Blagovich's dealings and he wanted to get his charges out in the ether before Blago made an appointment that would certainly have been tainted once this all became public. The charges will be brought before a Grand Jury in due time and I have no doubt an indictment will be handed down.

If Fitzgerald had put his charges in front of a Grand Jury and failed to get a True Bill, that would be a matter of public record and you can bet your bottom dollar that we would have heard about it by now.

[KharmaTrain]

57. Give It Time...Fitz Needs To Go To The Grand Jury

Sorry...no free passes for Blago.

This crime spree was called to his attention about 3 weeks ago and the FBI rushed in to get the goods. The urgency of stopping Blago before he sold one of my Senate seats was why they moved so quick...and only came up with a complaint with one charge. It's sure not gonna stay that way.

I expect Fitz will go to the Grand Jury, if he hasn't already...THEY'RE the ones who issue in indictment...not Fitz. Stay tuned, Blago will be in court more often than Judge Judy in the weeks and months ahead. We should see a multi-count indictment with plenty of stuff to nail him on.

Sorry, no abuse of system...keep trying to paint this pig a different color, it smells and there's still a pig....and his name is Blagojevich.

Blago will have his day in court...and if he is convicted it won't be because of Fitz, but Blago's own greed, arrogance and stupidity.

[galaxy21]

59. Blagojevich- the political equalivilent of Tony Soprano

Good luck to to Fitzgerald with this.

[aldo]

64. Fitz the Putz is a Repuke operator

The Libby situation was an exercise in damage control. The crimes should have led to the indictment, impeachment and imprisonment of both Cheney and Bush. Fitz dragged it out and got only Libby (who is about to be pardoned).

Here he hurried the case. IMO, to prevent the little people from getting too uppity. You know, they might have started feeling empowered after Blag's intervention against Bank of America. Nobody stands up to the banksters.


Republicanists = economic terrorists. They hate the American way of life. They hate the middle class.