The punishment for having sex in front of a 9-yr.-old kid? Probation.

[LiberalHeart]

Here's a story about a couple who did exactly that, yet all that happened to them was a sentence of three years' probation:

http://newsgrinder.blogspot.com/2007/03/they-had-sex-while-9-year-old-girl.html

I wonder if it can really be considered a kindness to the child to prevent her testimony.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

2. Absolutely sickening.

Has the girl at least been removed from the parents? The article didn't say.

[LisaL]

24. The mother was having sex with the boyfriend in front of the girl.

The girl lives with her father.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

26. Ah okay. I'm glad the kid lives with her father.

Hopefully, she won't be seeing her mother anytime soon without extremely strict supervision.

[Catherine Vincent]

3. Wow!

That's fucked up. (shakes head)

[sandnsea]

4. Someone may have taken liberties with the actual charges

Reading the quotes from the mother, I'm not hearing that they were using their sex life as a how to course. Rather, they had sex whenever and wherever they felt like it, because they viewed it as a natural thing not to be hidden. That's the view about sex - overall - that the mother wanted the child to be taught. They weren't trying to teach her how to have sex or inviting her to watch in order to learn about the sexual act.

I've known college graduates who had sex whether the kids were around or not. I don't think it's right. But I'm not sure it's sexual abuse to the point anyone needs to go to jail.

[Marrah_G]

23. perhaps this clears that up a little

The investigator asked Prata if he masturbated on a couch while watching pornographic videos and if the girl was present when he did that. “Yes,” Prata said. “But I never demanded that she stand or sit in the room to watch.”

When asked if the couple had sex in front of the girl, Prata said, “Yes, all the time.” The investigator asked where the girl was when they were having sex. “Usually on the bed watching us,” Prata replied. “We wanted her to know how to do it. We did not force her to stay on the bed.”

http://www.projo.com/news/courts/content/woonsocket_couple20_03-20-07_UA4U4J0.356ea31.html

[sandnsea]

27. Thank you

That is different than the original article and not acceptable at all. It's child molestation.

[Marrah_G]

28. Yeah, the short AP version just doesn't tell the whole thing.

I only knew where to look because I am from the area and its been a big topic of discussion here.

[EST]

5. I've been wondering if some aspect of a situation like this

would ever show up on DU and what the resulting discussion would be like.
From the time I can remember, I knew that cats did it, dogs did it, people did it, and what was the big deal, other that it was somehow supposed to be shameful to talk about it and people weren't supposed to do it unless they were married to each other.

By the time I was eight years old, I was tasked with taking our cow to the neighbor's bull a couple of miles away, and I knew how excited the cow was at the prospect.

In an Ideal world, there would be no harm in kids seeing their parents engaging in sex, but involving them in it amounts to criminal behavior and should be discouraged.

Animals and people are not equal, no matter who says otherwise.

[Atman]

7. Wow, that post flip flopped more than John McCain!

You really had me going! It sounded so reasonable and level headed -- until I got to the "amounts to criminal behavior and should be discouraged" part.

CRIMINAL behavior? For WHAT? What is the CRIME? Seeing nature? Witnessing the very act which created the child in the first place? That should be CRIMINAL?

At least it'll be good for a few years of therapy as the kid tries to figure out why her parents were arrested for having sex. The kid will probably have a real healthy attitude after THAT little encounter with the law, eh?

.

[EST]

25. Heehee! Glad you liked it.

In truth, sometimes I do vacillate about this subject, a product of the part of my upbringing that attached shame to sex, I suppose, but not this time.
Perhaps I should make myself a little more clear. I see nothing wrong with kids learning about sex in a loving, sharing relationship and seeing that sex is not wrong.
When I say "involved," I am talking about having the kid participate in the sex, not merely observing.
Children are not little adults and expecting them to be capable of making adult choices is a violation of the real adult's responsibility.
Adults who make sex partners of children are not being responsible, at best.

Learning to delay gratification is an important adult type lesson and is essential for the the future of mankind, thus my comment about people not being animals.
My comment about involving children being criminal is true on two levels.
First, it is considered so by society, which is the final definition of criminality, although that varies from one society to another.
Secondly, aside from the dark cloud hanging over such activity, physically involving a child in sex between adults robs that child forever of choices he can make for himself later on, as his or her own adult.

As a third point, although I can't point to examples to prove it, physically involving a child in sex can take away from the romance and discovery that seemed, at least for me, a large part of being a young adult.

There are other arguments and points that could be made, but this post is growing overlong as it is.

[karlrschneider]

10. Well, if -watching- is involved, there are many millions of internet users

who are right in line for indictment for "criminal behavior."

Bah.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marrah_G]

8. They weren't just letting her watch them

She also was seeing the boyfriend jerk off while watching porn. They said they were teaching her about sex. I lived in that city for 12 years and its sad what is happening there. This is also the city where twice recently, mothers have driven their children to beat up another child.

This is not walking in on your parents. This is a Mother and her boyfriend making her 9 year old daughter watch while they "taught" her . Thank god the child has been removed and is living with her father now.

[Colobo]

12. Some people over here think that is "sexual education", I guess...

[karlrschneider]

16. Some people over here seem to have never gotten any.

?
:eyes:

[WorseBeforeBetter]

14. That's lovely. Money shot lessons at the tender age of 9!?

Exactly - walking in on your folks is one thing; watching Mommy up on all fours on the living room sofa entirely another. Woof.

I do hope the child is in a much healthier environment with her father.

[karlrschneider]

15. So you were present during these activities? The article mentions none

of those allegations...or are you just making shit up out of thin air like Bushco does?

[Marrah_G]

18. From the Providence Journal

The investigator asked Prata if he masturbated on a couch while watching pornographic videos and if the girl was present when he did that. “Yes,” Prata said. “But I never demanded that she stand or sit in the room to watch.”

When asked if the couple had sex in front of the girl, Prata said, “Yes, all the time.” The investigator asked where the girl was when they were having sex. “Usually on the bed watching us,” Prata replied. “We wanted her to know how to do it. We did not force her to stay on the bed.”

http://www.projo.com/news/courts/content/woonsocket_couple20_03-20-07_UA4U4J0.356ea31.html

[Catherine Vincent]

9. Well, since the kid never complained, I guess she liked watching her parents go at it.

Apparently she was bragging in school about it.

[Colobo]

13. Excuse me? She is 9

She doesn't even know what's truly going on in the world yet.

As my grandma says, she "probably doesn't know how to wipe her ass correctly".

[Catherine Vincent]

20. That is true.

(This is the first time in a while I've witnessed a thread that was locked to clean up and then unlocked.) :)

[Colobo]

11. Creepy (and some DUers are creepy, too)

I have to honestly question the motives to get a 9 yr child INVOLVED, even if it's just by looking, in an adult sexual relationship. First, a 9 yr. old (3rd or 4th grade max?) should not be exposed to that kind of thing: at that age most kids aren't even ready to talk about sex in graphic terms. Second, I sense this is some kind of voyeuristic/pedophilic move by the parents.

Maybe I'm not normal, but I find the idea of having sex in front of children (regardless of they are mine or not) very sick and disturbing.

[Chimichurri]

56. I agree. This is a form of child abuse. There's nothing natural about it.

I'm surprised at many of the responses. Disturbingly so.

[SidDithers]

140. Most ironic post of the day...

Sex

"There's nothing natural about it"


Sid

[rucky]

99. My parents only had sex four times...

me, my two brothers, and the time I walked in on them.

:P

[spoony]

149. How old-fashioned of you!

Kidding, of course. You're perfectly normal and so is your opinion. There's literally nothing okay about what happened to that girl.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[devilgrrl]

19. How'd this get unlocked?

:crazy:

[Catherine Vincent]

21. The mods had to clean it up.

:)

[Marrah_G]

22. This judge is usually tough

Judge Jerimiah Jerimaih (yes that's his name, I swear) is known to be pretty tough. I have friends who have had him for custody battles. I have to think that after talking to the child he had to REALLY feel that testifying would hurt her. At least she is out of the home.

[Jonathan50]

29. By the time most children are nine...

They have seen hundreds to thousands of murders on TV.

I wonder if seeing two adults having sex hurts them more or less than watching people violently kill each other?

http://www.cybercollege.com/violence.htm

Instead, we have such things as the American Medical Association finding that shows that in homes with premium cable channels, or a VCR or DVD......children typically witness 32,000 murders and 40,000 attempted murders by the time they reach the age of 18.

[Colobo]

30. Two wrongs don't make a right

I wish we could, as a society, protect our children from both. Let children be children. Let's protect and cherish their innocence... the innocence that might be necessary to save the world from ourselves...

[mudesi]

34. Sex is not "bad"

And it doesn't take away a child's "innocence" to see it, because that implies that by witnessing a sex act, the child is "guilty" of something.

[Marrah_G]

31. This was beyond just seeing 2 adults having sex

[Colobo]

35. Exactly.

[sandnsea]

33. Watching daddy beat up mommy

Isn't good for kids either. But I'm relatively certain a child has to actually be hit before family services would get involved. You do have a point. Maybe it would be good if family services removed kids for having to watch their parents' domestic violence.

[cali]

95. What???

SRS in most states absolutely gets involved when there's violence in the familly. They have for years.

[sandnsea]

118. If it's directed at the kids, yes

But no, if it's strictly between the parents, it's a criminal matter and that's the end of it. There aren't enough social workers in the world to deal with every incident of domestic violence.

[question everything]

148. The double standard of sex and violence

all the shock about Janet Jackson nipple but nothing about all the violence on TV.

I wonder how this case even came to trial. Who complained? The girl?

I think that this is up to her father, who is the custodial parent to ask for changes in visitation. Otherwise, just one more example of the nanny state.

[mudesi]

32. In Europe, children see sex

Yet they don't grow up to be psychopaths. Imagine that.

Sex is a biological function. This child was not harmed by witnessing it. I doubt chimpanzees take the time to make sure their offspring aren't watching when they copulate.

[Colobo]

36. So, in Europe

Mommy and daddy let little Marie or little Jacques watch them fuck? I'll have to ask my European friends tomorrow.

[mudesi]

37. You should

Because you put it exactly right. Little Maire and/or Jacques indeed watch them fuck. Not just in Europe, but in many parts of the world, sex is not something that is hidden from children. It is only here in North America, predominantly Muslim nations, and any other place where religious indoctrination has created a culture of "sex is private" and "sex is dirty" and "sex is bad".

Sex is natural. Sex is not shameful. Sex is beautiful. While we don't know the exact specifics of this particular story, I'll assume that it was no different than the way it is all over the world.

Your opinion, believe it or not, is based solely on the backwards culture that you grew up in.

[XOKCowboy]

135. Well said and I totally agree...

As you can see by some of the responses in this thread, the indoctrination is very ingrained. I've got a feeling many of the respondents here rightly denounce religious fundamentalism and still don't see how the lasting effects of the Puritans are affecting their attitudes toward sex.

[Jonathan50]

38. Interesting that no one answered my question.

Which is worse for children, seeing people having loving sex or seeing people kill each other?

[mudesi]

39. Your question is invalid

Because it implies that seeing people have loving sex is somehow detrimental, while seeing people kill each other clearly is.

[Jonathan50]

41. Not invalid at all

If children seeing sex is not harmful and children seeing killings is then clearly children seeing killings is more harmful than than children seeing sex.

[Gemini Cat]

102. When I lived in Europe I didn't see/hear anyone

having sex in front of children.

[LeftishBrit]

109. Where in Europe????

It certainly isn't common in the UK; and yes I know we Brits are cold fish(!), but so far as I know the 'hot-blooded' French and Spanish and Italians don't go around showing the act to their 9-year-olds either. Who do you think does? I'm really curious.

[Marrah_G]

110. Are you honestly saying you think this happens in europe?

You think European parents get naked, show their children porn and then proceed to give them step by step instructions while the child is in bed with them? After all, it's important for the 9 year-old to know exactly how the boyfriend likes his #$%^ sucked right? It's pretty damn obvious what was happening.

[Dorian Gray]

125. Of course they do!

When I lived in England, all my friends were fucking in front of their children! And those Italians go at it like bunnies in front of their young kids. And don't even get me started on the French and Germans. They rarely have sex when the children are NOT in the room.

:eyes:

[gravity]

40. The parents just have a very liberal attitude about sex

Too much for my taste personally, but it doesn't mean that it is damaging to the child or anything. Hell, maybe it's better than treating sex as such a taboo in society. People act like a child seeing a naked body, someone in their natural state, will require them to see years of counseling to get over.

If the parents forced the child to watch or involved the child in with the acts, then I see it as a problem. Just acting like it's natural event, is probably not going to cause the child any harm compared to any kid raised in the average American family.

[mudesi]

42. I would agree that it's unorthodox

To teach a child how to have sex by actually showing the child is somewhat unorthodox, but not at all unnatural. The usual way children learn about sex in most countries is by accidentally hearing and seeing their parents in the middle of the act. On this continent, however, children usually learn about sex through images on TV or the internet, which is actually quite unfortunate, since we all know these images are not representative of reality.

Now that I think of it, it could explain why so many people are completely backwards about this subject. How can we expect prudish attitudes about sex to change when the only way children learn about it is from watching porn on the Internet?

[AmyDeLune]

43. From Post 56 (again...)

Marrah_G
56. From the Providence Journal

The investigator asked Prata if he masturbated on a couch while watching pornographic videos and if the girl was present when he did that. “Yes,” Prata said. “But I never demanded that she stand or sit in the room to watch.”

When asked if the couple had sex in front of the girl, Prata said, “Yes, all the time.” The investigator asked where the girl was when they were having sex. “Usually on the bed watching us,” Prata replied. “We wanted her to know how to do it. We did not force her to stay on the bed.”


http://www.projo.com/news/courts/content/woonsocket_cou...

Not a normal, healthy sex education...IMHO

[Jonathan50]

44. How about answering my question

Which is more harmful to a child, watching adults have loving sex or watching people violently kill each other?

[cgrindley]

112. Fallacy of Choice

Basic logical error detected.
No response required.

These sick bastards should be locked up forever.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lukasahero]

59. First of all, why so black and white?

Why if one is "bad", does that make the other "good".

Second, I'm not sure where you think 9 year olds are seeing people violently kill each other except in fields of war and I don't know anyone who thinks that's a good thing. That doesn't, however, make this situation a good thing either.

The question you are asking is invalid.

[gollygee]

97. FALSE DICHOTOMY

The fact that watching violence is bad doesn't make allowing a 9-year-old to watch sex OK. They are both inappropriate for children.

[TrogL]

126. Logical fallacy

False dilemma.

Both are harmful.

[Jonathan50]

151. Not a false dilemma...

Which is *more* harmful?

[Horse with no Name]

47. Wow.

The problem with this is that children mimic what their parents do so what happens when this girl starts making sexual advances on young boys?
You cannot teach a child not to engage in sexual activity until an appropriate age while fucking like bunnies and enjoying the hell out of it.
I'm not talking about the occasional glimpse when a child inadvertently walks in. I'm talking about conditioning a young child to sexual activity. It sounds an awful lot to me like they were "grooming" her.

[951-Riverside]

48. The punishment seems a little too harsh n/t

[LouisianaLiberal]

49. There are many disturbing replies on this thread.

This is astonishing. Some here are belittling posters who believe it is unhealthy for a young child to witness sexual acts between her mother and boyfriend. If you can't understand why that is wrong, and how it harms the child, then you are lost.

It is not a reasonable argument to claim others do it, so it must be OK, or that it is some kind of cultural norm. It is not a reasonable argument to say that because you can't understand why its wrong, it must not be. You can manipulate your own sense of decency as it applies to yourself all day long, but you have no right to impose your little moral experiments on children.

I am no prude, so don't bother.

I was going to try to go into more depth, but I'm disgusted by this. I've been reading DU since its first week, and until recently I haven't used the ignore button. More and more it seems that some here are wired so differently - I give up here. Hiding this thread so I don't have to see this crap tomorrow.

[Blue Diadem]

96. Scary isn't it?

Just last week, DH and I were talking about parents being paranoid about overprotecting kids..not letting them play outside or spend the night at friend's houses etc..like my kids used to. Threads like this make me understand why.

Wired differently is a nice way of putting it. IMO, it's perverted.

[cgrindley]

114. Agreed

There are some sick people posting in this thread. I cannot believe that there are posters here defending this crap. Every now and then, DU hits some issue where I just have to shake my head (I actually got into it the other month with someone who actually claimed that plural marriages were okay).

Sometimes I think that people confuse progressive values with libertarian values. I'm a social democrat myself and feel that socially-aware justice for the greater society always comes before individual rights.

[Dorian Gray]

127. Thank you LouisianaLiberal...

You have very eloquently stated what I believe to be true in this topic. I'm so disturbed right now, I don't even know what to think about some of the people posting here.

[Marie26]

136. For sure

Ignore thread is your friend.

[ToeBot]

50. Shouldn't there be a forum dedicated to this type of post?

Something like "Inflammatory Bullshit" or maybe "Outrage Intensification". As it stands I'll leave them all in the "Hidden Thread" forum.

[smoogatz]

134. I like the idea of an "Inflammatory Bullshit" forum.

I'd actually go there once in a while, I think.

[jayctravis]

51. In my liberal opinion...

No person should be involved in sexual activity in the presence of someone who isn't welcome to join in.

It's flaunting and vain to be intimate with someone in front of someone else. An orgy with consenting adults is a different matter.

It's not a crime if a kid sees it accidentally. It's a crime for the adults not to use discretion.

I've been in the situation where a girlfriend's four year old walked in on us. We stopped, got dressed, and made breakfast. Whoops...you caught us. Life goes on. Just because a kid sees it once doesn't mean that it's open season. Sex is not a family activity.

The boyfriend being okay with the kid being in the room while he's masturbating to porn? No no no no no. Wrong, absolutely wrong.

[orleans]

52. as far as it being kinder to not let the child testify--it's a tough call

however...
it would have been more work for the state's attorney to prepare for the case. yet, because this was not allowed what is the message that is sent to the child? these two adults did no jail time for what they did--and i wonder if that makes these kids (any child who is a victim of sexual abuse) think they were not important enough for the crime to really matter.

"In order for the state to prove the case," the judge said, "the child would have to come in and testify and we'd have to put the child through a rigorous cross-examination, and I assume she would have to describe what acts they committed, what they did and how they did it and how it affected her. And it would bother me to put the child through that type of examination."
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/national/article/0,1406,KNS_350_5430454,00.html

it would bother the judge to have put this girl through testimony and cross examination? well, this case was NOT ABOUT THE JUDGE!

and if the judge thinks that talking about what happened is a bad thing, then what the hell does that judge think about this girl experiencing the situations he doesn't want her to have to talk about?

i think that very often cases like this (and worse ones) are not brought to trial, or prosecuted to the full extent of the law, because counties don't like to admit that there is child sexual abuse happening in their county. (at least that is how it is where i live--i know of a specific case where three children were repeatedly raped by their father while mommy stood by and watched! ask me if the parents were prosecuted. ask me if charges were even brought up. ask me if these fuckers got away with it. and then ask me what i think the effect of that is on the self-esteem of these children. on second thought--don't bother asking because you already know what the answers are simply by what i have written.)

[cali]

53. It's child abuse. It's sexual abuse.

Really, it's that simple. And I'm disgusted by anyone who would defend the two morons who did this to the child. Period. If that makes me a prude or someone who doesn't understand other cultures, I'm fine with that.

[Jonathan50]

55. Answer the question please

Is it worse for children to see loving adults having sex of for them to see people violently killing each other?

[cali]

57. Stupid loaded question, and

let me explain why your question is so irredeemably stoopid. First of all you use the qualifyer "loving adults". WTF does that have to do with it? And do you consider jerking off on the sofa while watching porn in the company of an 8 year old, the act of a loving adult? Second of all you ask is it better than children seeing people violently killing each other. Well what do you mean by that? Do you mean as in Iraq where children are exposed regularly to the horrors of watching people die violently? Do you mean on TV? Which programs? Cartoons? The Sopranos? Lost?

Try and formulate a question that isn't stacked and I might have a little less contempt for it.

[Jonathan50]

60. So you won't answer the question

What a surprise....

Apparently you think that watching sex is more harmful to children than watching murder.

[cali]

61. LOL!!!

Let me answer it this way: I'd far rather an 8 year old watch the episode of "Lost" where 3 of the cast get shot and killed, then sit on a sofa by some guy watching pornography and jerking off, or watching him fuck Mommy while the kid sits there on the bed. Now answer MY question: Do you consider it loving towards a child to have sex while the child is asked to watch? Do you consider it a loving act to jerk off in front of porn while a child is present? (Hey, one loaded question deserves another)

[Jonathan50]

63. Please show me where the child was asked to watch..

[cali]

65. Duh.

PROVIDENCE, R.I. Mar 19, 2007 (AP)— A mother and her boyfriend were sentenced to three years probation on Monday for having intercourse in front of the woman's 9-year-old daughter to teach the girl about sex.

Later in the article, the man says they didn't FORCE her to watch. That was awfully big of him.

Now answer my question, you shirker: Is it a loving act for a man to JERK OFF WHILE WATCHING PORN AND SEATED ON A SOFA NEXT TO AN 8 YEAR OLD?

[Marrah_G]

62. Wrong question

Is it worse for a child to see violence on TV or to sit on the bed while her mother's scumbag boyfriend "teaches her" what sex is or for a 33 year old man to sit on a couch and jerk off while watching porn with his girlfriend's 9 year old child watching, while she is there on visitation?

That is the real question and I would rather the girl have seen something violent on TV. Of course if she had decent parents she wouldn't be seeing THAT either. But Woonsocket RI, I town I hold dear, has sunk into the abyss and is filled with people who have no fucking clue about how to parent. This is the same town where mother's were driving their young kids to afterschool fights.

[Jonathan50]

64. You take a few isolated incidents and then condemn an entire town...

You would really rather have a child see violent murder than sex?

America really is one screwed up place.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jonathan50]

70. All I'm doing is asking a question...

And the question is this: Which is more harmful to a child, to see sexual intercourse or to see violent murder?

That the answer makes you uncomfortable is not my fault.

[Marrah_G]

71. They are both bad

If you are comparing mommy being stabbed to death on the bed while the child is sitting there then yes, that is worse. But if you are talking about TV then no. This was not her parents. This was a scumbag boyfriend who felt it was his duty to teach her about sex by having her on the same bed while he had sex with her mother, by showing her porn, by masterbating in front of her. This was not a child who saw loving parents having an intimate moment.

[Jonathan50]

76. If they are both bad.....

Then why are people not being prosecuted for allowing their children to watch extremely violent murder on television?

On edit: You still didn't say which was worse.

[Marrah_G]

80. The two are not comparable

And frankly I am going to end this conversation with you. You are free to have the last comment. Obviously we disagree tremendously on this and neither of us are going to change our minds about it.

[cali]

72. I answered your question. You're too

cowardly to answer mine- and you're incredibly dishonest. Again:

IS IT A LOVING ACT FOR A MAN TO JERK OFF WHILE WATCHING PORN WHILE A CHILD IS PRESENT?

OR

IS IT CHILD ABUSE?

[Jonathan50]

82. No, that's not a loving act..

But I don't see it as child abuse..

Masturbation is a normal human activity and practically everyone engages in it, even children.

In fact that's one of the reasons that circumcision is so prevalent in the USA, it was at one time thought to reduce the urge for male children to masturbate.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jonathan50]

94. I don't countenance child abuse....

I just don't think this particular act constitutes child abuse.

Here are a couple of things I think are child abuse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHDAAlOX_dE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9A_vxIOB-I

[cali]

103. Tough. It is child abuse. Period. Under the law. Everywhere.

Your comments are beyond sick. I'm done with you.

[Jonathan50]

105. A thought experiment

Your nine year old daughter goes over to a friends house to spend the night. The friend gets into her daddy's DVDs and brings two of them up to her room to play on her DVD player for the kids to watch. One DVD is "Debbie Does Dallas" and the other DVD is "Texas Chainsaw Massacre".

They are going to watch one of the DVDs, which one do you think will cause more harm to the kids?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

111. Your Entire Premise Is So Ignorantly Flawed I'm Amazed You Keep Pushing It.

You keep asking your amazingly misguided 'which is worse' question, yet it is inherently flawed.

Unless you can show me a news story that contains details of a couple letting their 9 year old child watch repeatedly as they slaughtered people in their living room, your question is monumentally irrelevant.

Furthermore, even in your example above, there is a huge difference. One is showing real sex, the other is showing actors portraying violence. One is real, the other is dramatized and fiction. If you have trouble making that distinction then I don't know what to tell ya.

In the case of your overall question, you cannot attempt to make a point by comparison by comparing a LIVE and REAL event of sex to a staged, dramatized and produced portrayal of violence on tv. It's as ignorant a premise as I've seen in an argument.

If you truly can't discern the difference between watching your guardians right in front of you masturbating and having sex; and watching the texas chainsaw massacre on tv, then we have far more problems here then your premise alone.

[Marrah_G]

113. .

:applause:

[Madspirit]

117. Right On OMC

:thumbsup:

[lukasahero]

124. Folks here might want to see this

Me giving OMC a freakin' standing ovation! (Did hell freeze over when I wasn't looking? ;) ) Anyway, here it is and well deserved:

:headbang: :yourock: :applause:

[Dorian Gray]

130. Bravo, OMC!

Right on the money!

[Jonathan50]

142. Senior cadets at West Point have a hard time seperating fantasy from reality.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/02/stranger_than_fiction_does_24.html

Finnegan, who is a lawyer, has for a number of years taught a course on the laws of war to West Point seniors-cadets who would soon be commanders in the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. He always tries, he said, to get his students to sort out not just what is legal but what is right. However, it had become increasingly hard to convince some cadets that America had to respect the rule of law and human rights, even when terrorists did not. One reason for the growing resistance, he suggested, was misperceptions spread by "24," which was exceptionally popular with his students. As he told me, "The kids see it, and say, ‘If torture is wrong, what about "24"?' "

If seniors at West Point, some of the best and brightest of America, have a problem distinguishing fantasy (torture porn) from reality then how much chance does a nine year old have of doing the same thing?

If showing sexual pornography to children is a crime, as I've seen claimed here I think, then why is showing torture porn like 24 to children not a crime?

[Big Pappa]

150. Seniors at

West Point are adults not children. 22 or 23 years old.

[Jonathan50]

153. You managed to miss the point entirely..

If 22 year old Seniors at West Point have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality do you really expect a nine year old to do better at it?

The point being that torture porn like Texas Chainsaw Massacre or 24 are *real* to children. Just as real as the sexual porn they might see.

[Puglover]

116. So a question.

Do you often jerk off in front of your grandchildren? Answer that.

Christ. :crazy:

[Jonathan50]

139. Nope..

[Dorian Gray]

129. You have stated all in this one post

that I need to know so that I would never leave my children alone with you.

I'm so seriously disturbed right now about this thread. It's sickening.

[Jonathan50]

157. I would never want to be alone with someone else's children

Why on earth do you think I would wish to be alone with your children?

[Dorian Gray]

162. I don't think anything.....

other than I wouldn't want my children near anybody who could justify the actions of this "mother" and her boyfriend.

[joe_sixpack]

137. So why do we arrest people for exposing themselves to children?

The fact that masturbation may be a common activity among people in private, doesn't even come close to justifying this guy's behavior. I can't understand why so many are reaching so far for such thin attempts to defend this stuff.

[Jonathan50]

163. Because it offends people...

Do people have a right not to be offended?

[Bunny]

74. Your question has been answered, at least twice. If you don't like

the answer, that's your problem. But don't act as if *gasp* no one will answer the question!!!! It's been answered, you don't like the answer, deal with it and move on. It's becoming tiresome.

[Marrah_G]

69. I lived there for 12 years

I can absolutely make a judgment about the town. It has been declining steadily since the mills shut down. There are far more then a couple incidents. And yes, America is screwed up when people like you think this sort of thing is just fine. I on the other hand think a child should not be watching violence on tv AND I think she shouldn't be be sitting beside mommy while mommy is getting screwed so some pathetic boyfriend can get turned on watching them AND I think RESPONSIBLE parents shut the fucking porn off and zip their pants when a child is in the room.

You have some serious serious issues if you think this is okay. There is a reason the child wasn't living there and it wasn't because her mother was a wonderful, loving parent. She had visitation with her child and fucked it up by putting her boyfriend first. Some great parent you have there.

[Jonathan50]

78. Poverty has a way of destroying communities..

I'm a father and a grandfather.

My wife and I never did such a thing and our daughter doesn't.

That doesn't mean that I think someone who does should be prosecuted.

As I pointed out in another thread, I think the teaching of hate and fear to children in many fundamentalist churches is far worse child abuse than allowing children to see sexual intercourse.

But that's just my opinion.

[Marrah_G]

83. This is not about teaching anything

It really isn't. This is about a scumbag who got off having a child watching.

[gollygee]

89. False dichotomy

A 9-year-old shouldn't be watching either.

[mudesi]

73. No matter your emotional response, it doesn't make you right

Your disgust is not based on any facts, but rather, your upbringing. Admitting that you are fine with being someone who doesn't understand other cultures only confirms that assertion.

Someone higher up in the thread brought up the hypothetical: What about the people in this world who live in one room apartments? (There are many who do). Are the children harmed by seeing people engaged in a natural biological act? Are thc children harmed by seeing their pet dogs or cats in a natural biological act? The answer is no, whether you like it or not.

Part of being a progressive liberal with an open mind means taking in reality and reassessing your inherent cultural biases and taboos. Your attitude towards sex was ingrained into you as a child through religious and/or cultural upbringing, and while I'm glad your fine with it, I believe you should open your heart and objectively consider where your disgust comes from.

[cali]

79. This has nothing to do with other cultures.

The slimeballs who did this are Americans. And my response is both emotional and intellectual. I've worked with sexually abused children and this case was clearly sexual abuse. Sorry, a grown man masturbating while watching porn in the presence of an 8 year old, is absolutely child abuse. So is having Mommy's boyfriend fuck mommy whild the 8 year old is on the bed, in order to "educate" the child.

As for the one room hypothetical, I not only addressed it, I lived it. Until my son was 4 we lived in a cabin which was essentially one room. We curtained off our bed and waited til our son was asleep to have sex. And had he accidently seen us, I would have had no problem with it. That is NOT the case here.

And before you come up with your sickening bullshit rationalizing clear child abuse, I suggest you read the post of the woman on this thread who suffered an experience similar to the child in this story.

My reaction has nothing to do with puritanism or cultural insensitivity. Though speaking of insensitivity, yours towards child sexual abuse, is pretty impressive.

[LeftishBrit]

107. The problem is not so much, as I see it, that the child HAPPENED to see the sex act

but that her parents deliberately showed her it, and described it as 'teaching' her. So they were involving the child actively.

On the whole, people who live in one room try to DTD as privately as possible - waiting till the child goes out, or covering themselves as much as possible. (When homes are very crowded, children tend to spend more time out of the house than when home is larger.) Even so, children sometimes see the act accidentally, even in less crowded conditions; and some parents are more careful about privacy than others. But most parents don't actively exhibit the sex act to the children so that they can 'learn' about it. That is much more likely to be damaging than a child seeing it accidentally.

[Dorian Gray]

131. Honestly

I think that you are the one who misunderstands other cultures if you believe that parental sex in front of their young children is prevalant in European societies.

[gollygee]

88. Ditto

It sounds to me like this woman and her boyfriend got off on having sex in front of the kid. It was absolutely wrong to confuse a 9-year-old by getting her involved in sex play. Wrong wrong wrong and I'm sick that people here are trying to defend this.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

120. Of course it isn't; I'm deeply frightened that it's illegal in the US.

It's a deeply eccentric approach to sex education, and I'm very sceptical about it's benefits, but it won't inflict serious harm on the child, and it certainly isn't "child abuse".

It's fine to say "I don't understand this, and I don't want to", but it's not then fine to say "but I want to legislate to ban it anyhow".

[Dorian Gray]

128. Bravo, Cali!

[w4rma]

54. Wierd. But, what if they all lived in the same room? (nt)

[cali]

58. Gee, I don't know.

Hang a curtain? Wait til the kid is asleep?

[Virginia Dare]

68. That method worked for thousands of years...n/t

[movie_girl99]

67. This happened to me on many occasions from the ages 6-9 yrs

My mom was single a mother and she loved her men. I was used as a pawn for child support so she rarely let me see my dad. She used to drag me to a bar where my aunt worked with her with a coloring book and crayons in tow and i would sit at the bar coloring while she danced and drank. Then, when I was lucky enough to go, it was usually to his place where i would get to sleep on some blankets on the floor next to the bed while they went at it. I remember crying hoping she would stop. I know now that what she did is considered to be a form of sexual abuse. It has scarred me for the rest of my life to the point where I went through a very promiscuous period from the age of 14-19.I mirrored her behavior to a certain extent. Then, after I had my first child I became very prude and uptight about sex and anything having to do with it. I am now 42 and with counseling, I am working through some of my issues. I guess my point is, at 9 years of age, watching two people have consentual sex is harmful to a child's psyche and I wish someone had been an advocate for me so I wouldn't have had to experience it.

[Nye Bevan]

75. Thank you for the most enlightening post in this thread

I am very sorry to hear about what you went through as a child. And I'm shocked that there seem to be so many weirdos who seem to see nothing wrong with what you were forced to be exposed to.

[movie_girl99]

85. yeah, it never ceases to amaze me. n/t

[Bunny]

77. Thank you for your honest answer. I'm sorry that you went through

that, and I'm happy you've been able to have some recovery from it.

I sincerely hope that some of the people on this thread who don't think this behavior is a problem will read your post carefully, and reconsider their attitude.

[movie_girl99]

84. Thanks..I appreciate your kind words n/t

[gollygee]

90. .

I'm sorry :hug:

[Dorian Gray]

133. Oh Movie girl...

I am so sorry for your experience. You are very brave to address this and the subsequent issues that have developed through counselling, and I wish you nothing but happiness. :hugs:

[movie_girl99]

160. Thank you for the kind words

Surprisingly enough, I am very close to my mom but it hasn't always been that way. I carried a lot of anger for a very long time. To the point that I began taking it out on my family. Not physically, but I was just pissed off at the world. I have moved past it for the most part.

[Dorian Gray]

161. You are very strong

And you should be very proud of your strength. :) That is something that I truly admire.

[qwlauren35]

81. Probation isn't even appropriate - it's not illegal.

This is what comes of too much prudery. We used to live in single rooms, and it was as normal to hear parents having sex as it was to watch dogs, horses and cattle mate. Children had a clue about sex... and what it was for!

Think about the infants who sleep with their parents. Those parents are still having sex. Duh!

Now, doing it ON PURPOSE is pathetic. I think discretion is appropriate. But it's not illegal.

[cali]

87. It clearly is illegal under RI law.

It's child endangerment. And for pete's sake, the guy jerked off while watching porn on the sofa with the 8 year old sitting next to him.

[gollygee]

91. I sleep with my daughter

and my husband and I *GO TO ANOTHER ROOM* to have sex.

And in the past when people all slept in one room, I'm guessing they tried to be discrete - they didn't say, "Hey, sweetie - come here on the bed and watch this!"

Sexual abuse can include showing children pornography so it can certainly include live sex acts too.

[gollygee]

92. Just so I'm up on the DU standards for raising children . . .

1. Don't ever ever ever take them to a restaurant
2. Invite them onto the bed to watch when you have sex

:crazy:

I know it's a minority of DU'ers but my god it's depressing to see some people's attitudes about children here.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

93. What brought #1 on?

Poorly behaved children ruining the dining experience of others, and the adults not removing them until they do behave? I'm not talking McDonald's, either.

[rexcat]

100. There is a group at DU that think all children...

should not be taken to restaurants. I got into a flame war with a group of anti-kid types on DU back in 2001 or 2002. The anti-kid people on DU are about as nasty a group as I have ever seen. I would put them in the same category as freerepub..... types when it comes to kids.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

104. Yikes. I guess I've avoided those threads. (n/t)

[blondeatlast]

108. Don't worry, they re-emerge every so often in the Lounge.

Not for the faint of heart, those threads.

[rucky]

98. Wasn't this on SVU the other day? n/t

[youthere]

101. It's amazing...

I never saw my parents or anyone else have sex or masturbate....and somehow I still learned to perform it. I have three kids to prove it. Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

[jollyreaper2112]

106. my two cents

I was raised in a Christian household, unfortunately. I found out from the schoolyard what "fags" did before I ever heard about hetero sex. It struck me as the stranged thing in the world, why would you want to stick your penis in someone's butt? You'd get dookie all over it! Then when I found out about the mechanics of hetero sex I was like "Ew, that's like what the fags do, except now it's in the pee-pee!" I was given an abridged version of the birds and the bees so I knew that men and women were required to make babies but the mechanics of it were left vague. All I knew was that "sleeping together" was required and that sperm, "tinier than an ant's footprint" had to make the journey from husband to wife. So in my mind I had this idea of the sperm coming out after the man was asleep and bouncing along on their little tails curled up like springs. If a woman was asleep nearby, she might become pregnant.

Our culture is really messed up about this sort of thing. Because only perverts would be sexually open, a person really does have to take on a perverted mindset to go against such social sanctions. A homosexual in Victorian times knew that being open about it would see him ostracized from society. It would take a powerful compulsion to overcome the desire to keep it suppressed. Older homosexuals I know said they found it difficult in the past because the only homosexuals they knew about from regular media were the flamers, drag queens, and media sterotypes, it was difficult to find out about homosexuals who looked and acted just like them, who were pretty much mainstream except for being gay.

So bringing this back to today's topic, I can understand how some families might want to be more open about sexuality but with today's climate, to do things that have such negative social sanctions might make you wonder just what they were thinking. Even having a discussion about such things can cause a firestorm of debate. What's the proper age of consent? 18 is an abritrary number the legal system came up with because it removed case-by-case arguments, same with the drinking and voting ages. There was a book that came out a few years ago from a researcher who did a huge survey of people who participated in underage sex, both with underage and adult partners. The results of the study said that, on average, it was a negative experience for young girls because they have so much emotion invested in the act but for young boys it was seen by them as a positive thing because they gave it little significance beyond the physical act. The author was flamed to death for even trying to bring up the debate in public and that was that.

In general, it's a good thing to keep laws like this in place because there are plenty of sexual predators out there and it's not like they just limit themselves to the underaged. Of course, when you're 18 and older, you're expected to be able to fend for yourself, predator or no. Still, as others have pointed out, there are plenty of cultures that are more open about sex but it's because no particular hangups are associated with it. I think that's probably the key here, it's all about how someone culturally percieves something. In our society, affection between males is treated as a perversion so a heterosexual on the recieving end would be "EW!" Sexual purity is valued highly in conservative societies, especially Muslim, so a rape victim is not only not deserving of comfort, she deserves death for being defiled. In America, comedians joke about the most traumatic event from childhood as walking in on their parents having sex. In more open countries, it would be seen as little more than a "I'll come back when you're not busy" moment.

[Jonathan50]

152. Interesting point..

A homosexual in Victorian times knew that being open about it would see him ostracized from society. It would take a powerful compulsion to overcome the desire to keep it suppressed. Older homosexuals I know said they found it difficult in the past because the only homosexuals they knew about from regular media were the flamers, drag queens, and media sterotypes, it was difficult to find out about homosexuals who looked and acted just like them, who were pretty much mainstream except for being gay.

My mother was an antique dealer and from a fairly early age I went with her to antique shows around the country. A lot of antique dealers are gay and I knew quite a few very well. They were never anything other than very nice to me and I liked them all. In that era, gays were obliged to stay in the closet or face severe discrimination or far worse, I felt sorry for them when I finally learned what was going on in my early teen years. After closing hours at antique shows a lot of the dealers would get together in one of their hotel rooms and party, gossip and generally have a good time, I learned a lot about gays at those parties and I learned to be discreet about who I told what because I knew it could cause a lot of serious trouble if I let someone's secret out of the bag.

When I was eleven I was molested by an older redneck "family friend", he groped me pretty thoroughly and tried to open my pants, I pushed him away and walked off. I never told my parents and never told anyone else until I was an adult. To be honest, I don't think it really affected me all that much. I don't recall thinking about it a great deal, it just happened and I ended it pretty quickly.

[Madspirit]

115. Pedophiles

As someone who has worked with the victims of sexual abuse I can absolutely say this is damaging. I've seen the damage. I would even hazard to say, those defending it the most are not people I would want to have around children.

Also, my girlfriend works in the graduate department of electrical and computer engineering at The University of Texas. 49% of those students are international students. We have good friends from just about every country in the world and the cultural relativism stuff is crap too. People who live in one room are discreet, go elsewhere or make sure the kids aren't around. NO ONE USES THIS AS A TEACHING METHOD. NO ONE FUCKS IN FRONT OF THE KIDS AS A NORMAL BEHAVIOR. NO ONE. NO CULTURE. NOWHERE. It's crap and it's abuse and it will cause damage. I only wish I knew the real names of those claiming otherwise.
Lee

[Nikki Stone1]

119. Thanks, Madspirit.

For some sense on this issue.

[Nye Bevan]

121. Yep

I just hope that the DUers arguing in favor of this crap are doing so because they think it demonstrates a cool liberal uninhibited free spirit rather than because of creepy pedophiliac tendencies.

Most of these posters seem to have slunk away quietly (and hopefully embarrassed) after post 67.

[cali]

122. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Some of the people in this thread just about made my head explode. I too have worked with sexually abused children, and the sort of damage this kind of behavior- drawing children into the sex lives of adults is INVARIABLY harmful.

[Colobo]

138. Thanks, Madspirit

I'm really dissapointed at the number of people here that find different types of child sexual abuse acceptable.

[Jonathan50]

158. PM me and I'll tell you my real name...

What are you going to do, have me arrested for having an opinion that you disagree with?

[Madspirit]

123. The last thread

Since the last thread on this, the one before it went to trial, I have actually discussed the issue with friends of ours from other cultures. I felt a need to do this because anytime any disgusting behavior comes up on this board, people start with the "other cultures do it" crap.

The first I discussed it with is a Pakistani Muslim guy, one of our closest friends. (Yes, he knows we're lesbians. There goes another stereotype. He hasn't tried to kill us or anything...<g> In fact, when the engine in our car went out, he loaned us the money to buy a new one.) Anyway, he is here working on his doctorate. I have discussed it with two friends of ours from France, a couple of women friends from India and lastly, with a Nigerian man, my girlfriend's ex husband. Not only did they find it disgusting and sick, they were highly offended AND pissed off that people are using their cultures as some kind of excuse for this aberrant behavior. I know of no culture where this would be acceptable.

I have also discussed it with therapist friends of mine and with my very own therapist. They not only do NOT find it acceptable, they also affirm that it most certainly is child sex abuse. Anyone who claims otherwise should be ashamed of themselves, imo.
Lee

[Madspirit]

132. PS and kind of OT

My therapist actually works with therapists who have been traumatized from working with trauma victims. Most people don't know that therapists use something called a tier system. Anytime there is a disaster of any kind, natural or otherwise, earthquakes, school shootings, 9/11, etc. they use different groups of shrinks. First they have the shrinks who work with the actual victims; then they have the shrinks who work with the shrinks who worked with the victims. Most disasters have two tiers. 9/11 had three. One last tier to work with the shrinks who worked with the shrinks who worked with the actual victims. THAT is how pervasive and destructive trauma can be. Anyway, my shrink primarily works with people who have worked with trauma victims. A shrink for other shrinks. She also sees other people too but that is her primary specialty, working with people who are freaked from the horrors other people go through. Interesting, I think.
Lee

[joe_sixpack]

141. Yes, sex is a beautiful thing....

between two people sharing their love. It can be an awful act of violence in the case of rape, or it may simply be a way to relieve stress between people who care about each other. Like many things in life, it depends on viewpoints and perceptions. A child can see an adult couple kiss and hug and can easily deduce the act is a sign of caring and affection. But although the concept of sex can be beautiful, the actual practice is often not. A man with engorged genitalia is grunting and thrusting while vigourously penetrating her mother in a sensitive region. The adults, who kids need to feel are in control of themselves, look anything but, as they make confusing faces and spasms. The mother moans and makes sounds that could easily be interpreted as suffering from pain. Film yourselves having sex and then watch it and tell me if a child that young is going to gather something positive from viewing it. Kids do need to be made aware and have sex explained to them when they are ready, and they need to be taught that it's a normal and healthy thing, but certainly not this way.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

143. I noticed there's a deleted subthread

I missed it, of course, but why do get the sneaking suspicion that some of the usual suspect um...orn-pay...apologists showed up?

I concealed the actual word I meant because I'm not keen on attracting them back here because I know that at least one of them does searches for the term.

[Jonathan50]

145. I don't understand why torture porn like 24 is OK

But sexual porn is not?

There have been several threads here in GD where people have been singing peans of praise to 24, I personally find it disgusting and a celebration of the very worst of humanity.

Personally I don't even care for hard core porn, too unrealistic and usually too skanky.

And besides, it gives me an inferiority complex. :)

[Craftergrl]

144. I'm with Joe

Sex is a beautiful thing...

But mark me down for a creepy vote.

Skin crawling creepy too...ewww.

[aananny7]

146. what?!?? have they lost their minds!??!!

they should have just let her get her sexual knowledge from the experts - hollywood, tv, and the public school system!! what were they thinking!!

[Lex]

147. You mean Newt Gingrich, Ted Haggard, and Jimmy Swaggert

and all those sicko fundie Cons out whoring around.

[cali]

155. Yeah, well all three are better than watching mommy

get fucked by boyfriend to teach little 9 year old Susie about sex- not to mention the experience of having the boyfriend jerk off to porn while sharing the couch with the kid. What the hell don't you understand? It. Is. Child. Sexual. Abuse.

[Marrah_G]

159. It wasn't really about teaching

In my opinion, this ass was just working his way up to something else and pretty soon it would have gone to hands on lessons.

[ComerPerro]

154. you'd prefer, what exactly? Prison? Torture? Death Penalty?

this is what happens when you get your "news" from blogs.

[BoneDaddy]

156. Um it is called boundaries people

Even the sexual un inhibited crowd needs to wake up. Do I think this couple needs to be drawn and quartered? not necessarily. If they really believed that they were doing the right thing, then they need to be educated that this is crossing the sexual boundary line. Children need to be educated but not like this.

It has nothing to do with "hating our bodies" or being sexually "repressed". It is about modeling boundaries with your children, boundaries that will keep them safe in their future.