Fundies pushing zygote personhood

[marmar]

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:



from the American Family Assn's OneNewsNow:



Pro-lifers promote 'personhood' concept nationwide
Charlie Butts - OneNewsNow - 12/3/2008 5:00:00 AM


With a pro-abortion president soon taking the helm in Washington, the pro-life movement will stay focused while also pursuing new ideas.

Katy Walker of the American Life League (ALL) says old approaches will continue, but a relatively new method will be pursued. "The idea of personhood in this movement is really the only thing, the only option left to us, and it's one of the best options and one of the most beautiful concepts I've heard in a long time," she contends. "We're very excited about it."

She defines the term. "Personhood is the idea. It's cultural change and legislative change, working towards defining all human beings as persons," Walker explains. "It's the last frontier of the civil rights movement -- that every human being deserves his rights under the law."

Walker adds that life begins at fertilization and ends at natural death. Colorado's pro-life movement was able to put a personhood amendment on the November 2008 ballot, but it failed to pass. "The fact that they got 27 percent of Colorado, which is historically a liberal state, is very hopeful, I think," she notes.

The movement, according to Walker, will now go to each state. She hopes that through the process, the general public will become better educated about life.


http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=338592 (if the OneNewsNow filter RickRolls you, the story is at www.afa.net in the OneNewsNow area)

[donco6]

1. "Historically a liberal state"?

In what fantasy land is SHE living? We're the fucking home of fucking Focus on the fucking Family, for fuck's sake.

[marmar]

3. Whatever fantasy land they're living in, it's a very scary place....

:scared:

[rockymountaindem]

14. I was going to say the same thing

If by "historically" they mean the passing of Amendment 2 back in the dark days and the tenure of one Bill Owens in the Governor's mansion, then... oh wait, they're still wrong.

I guess they'll say anything to justify their quixotic quest. It must hurt being bent like a pretzel.

[dubeskin]

2. I've always wondered

If we consider zygotes and whatnot people, does that then increase the population of a state? I mean, does that give New York, Florida, and California a greater representation since, by assumption, more people would be pregnant there?

Or is this another "let's pick and choose" rule which the Fundies love to throw out.

[Taverner]

5. A ZYGOTE HAS LESS OF A NERVOUS SYSTEM THAN A FROG

Jeez - do I have to say this EVERY FUCKING TIME????

[dubeskin]

19. Yes, I realize that

But if zygotes are going to be considered people, would they get representation under the law and government? I mean, if they're people, you could be tried for abortion then as murder. So would that zygote or pre-born baby contribute to population?

[Hekate]

33. Maybe legislators could compromise on 3/5ths of personhood. Worked so well the last time ...

... that dodge was tried, right? :sarcasm:

I think I now understand the term Religiously Insane.

Hekate

[youthere]

44. Not to mention the fact that every miscarriage would have to be "investigated"

[Crunchy Frog]

64. Every used menstrual product too.

In fact, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be good idea for women to send their used hygienic products to them for proper Christian burials, for as long as they decide to pursue this nonsense.

[NoSheep]

68. ooooooooooooooooo

[youthere]

72. Ah yes...the Stayfree Sacrement.

[Crunchy Frog]

29. A zygote has no nervous system whatsoever.

It has less of a nervous system than an aboeba. We frogs have relatively sophisticated nervous systems, thank you very much.

[nxylas]

46. But more of a nervous system than a corporation

And they're counted as people in our legal system.

[LastDemocratInSC]

23. Well, then, we'll define a zygote to be 3/5 of a person ... familiar?

[Cerridwen]

27. ??? You're equating zygotes with slaves??? Did I read your post correctly?

[Hekate]

34. I just posted the same thing, not having read the whole thread first. Used the sarcasm thingy though

I seriously doubt the previous poster was equating zygotes with slaves, any more than I was.

Speaking for myself, it strikes me that arguing for a zygote's personhood is as wrongheaded as arguing against the personhood of a living-breathing human slave. I drew the comparison to say that we have been in this neighborhood before, and a rotten neighborhood it is -- would really not be there after dark, or any time of the day.

Hekate

[Crunchy Frog]

30. A billionth of a person would probably be more realistic.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. How about we realize that it's complete insanity to grant legal rights to single cells.

Unless you think that women who take the birth control pill or use IUDs, and workers in IVF clinics should be charged with murder, as the asshats in charge of the anti-choice movement do.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

4. I suppose that works well in theology, but I don't know if it would hold up under law.

In Catholic theology, a "person" is any entity that either exercises reason or could potentially exercise reason (if certain impediments such as mental defects, physical conditions, or insufficient age were removed).

What does American law define a "person" as? That's really the central issue to this new approach, and I don't see the pro-lifers addressing that.

Edited for clarity.

[sandnsea]

6. Every human being deserves his rights under the law??

Oh I think the gay community better latch onto this pronto - and we can explain the difference between invisible specks and born babies later.

[Sal Minella]

16. That's what occurred to me first, too --

"that every human being deserves his rights under the law." -- lets start with returning veterans who need medical services and provide equal rights for fully functioning adult human gay persons before we start worrying about the rights of something invisible that consists of four cells.

A zygote can be considered "a person" or a zygote can be a "late period," depending on the opinion of the person containing the uterus containing the zygote. Anybody else's opinion is irrelevant. I don't understand why this is so difficult for the anti-woman, anti-choice people to grasp.

[aquart]

25. These are not deep thinkers.

[Lucian]

7. Why don't they just step it up a notch...

and claim all sperm and egg sacred? That's what they want after all.

What a bunch of fucking nutcases. :grr:

[Nederland]

36. Queue the Music...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

Every sperm is scared,
Every sperm is great.
When a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.


Classic.

[jobycom]

8. Why don't we pass our own amendment guaranteeing choice?

If the most they can get for their fascist propoganda is 27% in Colorado, sounds like we could at least do better than that. I'm sick of being on the defensive, waiting for them to get lucky. Why don't we go after them?

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

9. "Walker adds that life begins at fertilization and ends at natural death"

As opposed to unnatural death? So if a person is murdered, that person retains full legal rights in perpetuity?

[gollygee]

13. That means I should be able to claim another dependant on my taxes this year

I'm pregnant but not due till late January. But I could use another year's tax deduction. Why haven't I been asked to get her a social security number yet?

Stupid people.

[Kalyke]

49. Congratulations!!

I had a baby girl 18 months ago.

Is this your first? My daughter was my second. I also have a son (who just won his school's Spelling Bee yesterday! Yay!!). Let me be the first to warn you: girls are harder to raise. LOL!!

[gollygee]

50. I have a 6-year-old daughter as well

So I'm up on that. LOL.

[Canuckistanian]

17. For them, life begins at conception and ends at birth

You never see them fighting for post-natal care or children's rights.

Hell, even gay adults are not worth keeping alive according to these idiots.

[Selatius]

10. So, can we assume that they are trying to outlaw the very concept of the day-after pill?

I think it's silly that a zygote should be afforded the same rights as a sentient person.

[Hekate]

35. Yes, as a matter of fact they are. That's what allowing pharmacists to refuse to fill Rx is about...

Pharmacists who find that Plan B offends their conscience -- because the idiots think it is an abortifacient -- can refuse to supply it. Doctors and nurses can refuse to write the prescription in the first place. I know this is the case around Washington DC, but I don't know how widespread it is yet.

Hekate

[Posteritatis]

11. I'm waiting for them to declare unfertilized egg cells to be human

Dozen-plus homicide charges per year for half the citizenry! Booyah!

(I wish I could be surprised in the event that someone actually did that. They were declaring stem cells to be humans for awhile, after all..)

[Captain Hilts]

12. Then why are they called 'zygotes' and not 'really little not-quite' people. nt

[Ichingcarpenter]

15. My sperm should have a rights too!

They deserve equal rights!
Zygotes are nothing without my sperm.

[donco6]

18. Maybe my sperm can get married!

And I can just sorta, you know, *follow along*.

[Hippo_Tron]

31. Every sperm is sacred

Every sperm is great
If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate

[Warren DeMontague]

40. I'm gonna march into the DMV with my nuts out, sayin "I want 600 Billion Drivers Licenses"

"One for each of 'em"

[Shiver]

42. Screw driver's licenses!

I'm signin' all my boys up for unemployment! :evilgrin:

[pipi_k]

55. Better bring some lunch with you...

It might take a while to get individual photo IDs for all those guys...

[ACTION BASTARD]

20. It's Pro-CHOICE not pro-abortion. Wording is Everything.

[liberalmuse]

21. The day that these motherfuckers...

stop supporting 'Shock and Awe' and beating gays to death will be the day they finally gain some fucking credibility. Until then, they are nothing more than potential cast off ejaculate.

[MrModerate]

22. I guess they haven't noticed that fact-based reasoning . . .

triumphed over "let's just make shit up" in the recent election, the one that's going to install a "pro-abortion" president.

First off, I don't know anyone who's "pro-abortion." I know a lot of people who demand that women's right of personal choice in intimate physical matters be preserved, but that's hardly synonymous with pro-abortion. The women I know who've had the procedure all wish they hadn't had to.

"Defining all human beings as persons" -- now there's a radical concept. I believe that's been the standard for at least the last 100,000 years. Admittedly, we've enslaved, cheated, raped, killed, banished, and abused our fellow human beings by the millions during that time, but they've remained persons nevertheless. This twaddle is just a clumsy attempt to assign personhood to clumps of tissue that *might* become human beings.

"Walker adds that life begins at fertilization and ends at natural death." Yeah, and Walker having said so makes it incontrovertibly true, of course. Sorry dearie, but that issue has not been settled, and most people don't agree with you.

". . . Colorado, which is historically a liberal state . . ." choke, gasp. (Well maybe recently, as "conservatism" has proven itself to be an impossible philosophy to live with and Coloradans are emerging from a long, dark period.)

And grid knows, we'd all like to be "better educated about life."

Give how rock-poundingly stupid these people are, how is it they've done so much damage?

[ColbertWatcher]

24. WTF is with the GOP and defining "personhood?"

They believe cells and companies are people worthy of legal protections, but not gay people.

What a bunch of assholes the GOPers are.

[volstork]

26. "It's the last frontier of the civil rights movement --

that every human being deserves his rights under the law."

Unless, of course, you're gay and want to get married.

[Mister Ed]

28. That would make couples who practice Rhythm Method birth control murderers

With that method, couples avoid pregnancy by engaging in sexual relations only when it's too early in the woman's monthly cycle for conception to occur, or too late in her cycle for successful implantation of a fertilized egg.

If that fertilized egg is ever legally declared a person, then such couples might be found guilty in the "death" of the fertilized egg.

[Feron]

32. Oh for fuck's sake...

These are the same idiots that proposed the law investigating every miscarriage. I forget the state.

The same ones that get sexually exicted over murdering people different from themselves.

The ones that want to eliminate the safety nets that ensure that poor children have the basics of life and education.

The ones that desire to ban birth control and give women no reproductive choices. Natural Family Planning is not a contraceptive method, it's wishful thinking.

The ones that couldn't care less about couples having difficulty conceiving a natural child.

The same ones that don't care if the cure for horrific diseases can be found by using embryos in research.

The ones that will not allow terminally ill or braindead individuals to have an assisted death.

The same ones that will break up a happy family only because the parents happen to be gay.

What a beautiful concept indeed. :sarcasm:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

37. Because getting their asses handed to them

in Dobson's own back yard wasn't humiliating enough.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Pah! They are squishy-soft on LIFE. WHAT ABOUT THE PRECONCEIVED BABIES!?!?!?!?!?!!

WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE PRECONCEIVED BABIES??!?!?!?!?!

SAVE THE PRECONCEIVED BABIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.geocities.com/preconceivedbabies/

(Read it. Seriously good stuff. ;) )

[Hekate]

61. Recommended site. Thanks.

;-)

Hekate

[juno jones]

41. Well then

If every sperm is sacred, every life produced is sacred too and worthy of housing, education, healthcare, meaningful and worthwhile employment, freedom, peace, and compassion.

Ante up, assholes. I see your zygotes and I raise you humans, after all WWJD?

[LeftishBrit]

43. Sheer insanity

(1) According to most medical definitions, conception only occurs at implantation, not fertilization. If you define it (as the religious right do) as occurring at fertilization, then most 'persons' never survive to become sentient beings.

(2) Why don't these pro-life people worry a bit more about all the babies who die unnecessarily because of unjust world economic policies?


I suppose Walker's theme song is:

"Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gest quite irate."

[ljm2002]

45. "With a pro-abortion president soon taking the helm in Washington"...

...AARRGGHH!!!!!

This reporter ought to be shot -- just a BB to the ass, mind you -- and given a lesson in basic truthfulness.

Our President-elect is *NOT* "pro-abortion". He is pro-choice. Yes, Virginia, there is a difference. A big one. Mainly the difference is one of framing, and as per usual, our lazy press corpse eats up the right's framing and regurgitates it thoughtlessly to an unsuspecting public, who are too lazy themselves to give it a moment's consideration, and thus the dialog continues to be poisoned.

AARRGGHH!!!!!

[ChickMagic]

47. Lack of education is dangerous to liberty

These loonies know nothing of biology and they know nothing about how pregnancy occurs. Most of those women have conceived and lost it when it didn't implant. They never knew about it.

Hey - I had a wart removed once. OMG! I'm a cell murderer! A cell with nerves no less!

[Kalyke]

48. No one is pro-abortion.

Sigh.

[Solly Mack]

51. If life ends at "natural death" and you don't experience a natural death...are you really dead then?

when you let something/someone die a natural death...it dies on its own without outside cause (like the DP, for example)

Oh, and I want a tax refund for each and every egg I've ever produced...for all spontaneous abortions I've ever had...and the assumption of life for every period, so I'll need a refund for those as well. Each refund to be equal to the current standard deduction for a child. And a settlement, per egg, for each and every egg held back from its potential when illness causes the prevention of egg production and or interrupts their natural course.

Also, if I have to host a person for 40 weeks inside my body...I want a lease agreement and monetary compensation. If said occupant is a minor and cannot enter into a contract, as its parent I will act in its stead. To include ALL medical decisions.


and I feel a man should get 1 dollar for evey single sperm he has ever produced (or will produce)...regardless of where the little top hatted tadpoles ended up. With additional monies coming for each and every sperm interrupted by an illness that necessitated in the host being snipped.

Just trying to be fair

Oh, and sometimes I leave leftovers in my fridge for too long...I want monies (per cell and potential cell lost due to cleaning and extraction) for all the life created in this manner. I never viewed my garbage collector as a murderer before...but now...I've seen the light. As for Mr Clean? Off with his shiny bald head!!

I would also like compensation for any and all skin that has sloughed off my body in the last 44 years...every hair I've ever lost...every fingernail and toenail clipping...and every ounce of blood lost from wounds caused by any means.


Iffen we just wanna get silly...

I'm beyond bored with this

[DS1]

52. As the great Bill Hicks said, "You're not a person until you're in my phone book"

[mondo joe]

56. I maintain you are not a person until you can prepare your own breakfast.

And sometimes not even then.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

58. Peace be upon him! n/t

[Eksess]

53. What would this mean for miscarriages?

If a zygote is a person protected under the law, what happens when a woman miscarries? Would this require a police investigation to see if negligence was involved in that "persons" death? What about zygotes that fail to attach to the uterine wall? A good chunk of those "people" fail to make it to that point.

Everytime a woman miscarries, would we haul her into custody to make sure zygotes rights weren't violated? Wouldn't this require 24/7 monitoring of every child-bearing capable uterus in the country? Does a woman getting her tubes tied deny rights to future zygotes? Those eggs are already sitting there in the ovaries waiting their turn.

[ThatsMyBarack]

54. Welcome to DU, Eksess!

:hi:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

59. Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes

Griswold v. Connecticut, Roe and every other decision relating to reproductive choice would go out the fundie window.

And welcome to DU!

[pipi_k]

60. Oh, let that happen and I'll bet they'd change their tune fast enough

24/7 monitoring...

Women required to give up things that could endanger the health or life of the zygote/embryo/fetus


I'm sure we could come up with a whole list of things that could potentially harm a zygote/fetus, and for which it could sue its own mother if she engaged in any of it.

Although I would imagine the zygote/embryo would need to have an advocate willing to act on its behalf, seeing as how it's mostly non-verbal at that point....

[Crunchy Frog]

65. A potential crime scene. There will be forensic vagina inspectors

just like what they have in El Salvador.

[pipi_k]

57. They're pretty sly...

in that they keep trying to push the argument against choice into the realm of "let's argue about when a zygote/embryo/fetus becomes a person"

When the REAL issue is, IMO, that if they don't want an abortion they don't need to have one, but they DO need to keep their fucking noses out of other people's business.

Really...screw arguing with them over when or what or where a zygote becomes a human being....because it's an endless circle jerk, and I absolutely refuse to argue with anyone along those lines. It's insane and it's pointless because nobody ever "wins".


My reply is always, "It's none of your damned business. Period."

[Hekate]

62. They're sly & they never, ever quit. I think they argue about "life" because they have no lives....

I wish they'd stay out of ours.

Hekate

[bluedawg12]

63. This is personhood?

zygote

[Nevernose]

69. Accoding to some, it's not even that

Blastoyst

[ElboRuum]

66. Natural death, eh?

Does that mean that they are anti-death-penalty? Prolly not.

[NoSheep]

67. HOW CAN THEY? They don't know what a zygote is!

[ElboRuum]

70. Self-Delete

Had a change of heart...

Sorry.

[KakistocracyHater]

71. why do they have a fetish for the fetus

?