Practicing abstinence, bride and groom have never kissed

[Liberal_in_LA]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-talk-no-sexnov29,0,2758381.story

Practicing abstinence, bride and groom have never kissed

Melody LaLuz kisses fiance Claudaniel Fabien, but only on the cheek, during their rehearsal dinner party Friday night in Elmwood Park. (Tribune photo by Charles Cherney / November 28, 2008)


When the officiant tells Claudaniel Fabien he can kiss his bride at the altar Saturday, no one will fault the couple for a little "should I tilt my head this way, or that way?" awkwardness.

It will be the couple's very first kiss.

And that night could be their very first ... uh, back to that kiss.

"I don't know how long it'll last, but it'll be great," says a confident Melody LaLuz, 28, who is marrying 30-year-old Fabien in Chicago after a yearlong courtship and two-year friendship.

The "no-kissing" rule came up as a way to prevent things from getting out of hand.

You see, Fabien and LaLuz both teach abstinence courses to Chicago Public Schools teens. And they say they practice what they preach.

To avoid temptation while dating, they made sure they were never alone with each other in a house. When they watched movies on the couch, they snuggled sitting straight up, never lying down.

[glowing]

1. Well, at least they practice what they preach.. good luck to them.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fearless]

31. Knock it off!

WTF is the matter with DU lately? Those who make those jabs are no better than those who make fun of gay people.

[Deja Q]

37. Or worse, perhaps. If that could be fathomed possible.

[LisaL]

49. Lately?

LOL.

[Fearless]

50. Well, second today. That much I'm certain of...

:argh:

[NashVegas]

87. Look, I'm Not Trying to Be Mean

And I'm sorry if it came off as snarky. But they've never even kissed; men are said to think of sex every 30 seconds and he's never even kissed her. Nor has she pushed it. IMO, that screams the #1 reason they haven't had a control problem is because they have no real sexual attraction to each other.

[LisaL]

92. Oh please.

If they had no sexual attraction to each other then staying alone in the house wouldn't concern them.

[Exultant Democracy]

99. You forgot the other "reasonable" explanation, Jesus' Magic...

:rofl:

but seriously I wouldn't assume either was gay off the bat, a better explanation for the lack of sexual attraction is that they got the crap molested out of them at some point in time.

[Fearless]

108. Or far more reasonable... They were brainwashed into believing their bodies were evil

That their urges were sinful, that their feelings were dirty and disgusting. It's par for the course to be sure, but it doesn't lessen the destructiveness of such sickening displays of radicalized dogma.

[Exultant Democracy]

113. or they are liars and hypocrites and fuck all the time. The fact that they teach this shit lends

credence to that theory.

I won't buy it till I see the red sheet.

[NashVegas]

118. True Story

Friends have a teen boy who's had his heart broken twice by good Xtian girls. He thought that by dating them, he *wouldn't* be pressured into intercourse before he's ready (wants to finish college before getting serious - and then, he will probably settle right down). When he wouldn't, they'd keep dating him but sleeping w/someone else on the side. It was awful.

[Pharlo]

157. It says they've never slept together.

Nothing in there about either of them being virgins. So, they can honestly say they never slept with their 'spouse' before they got married.

[NashVegas]

115. I Considered That

But think if that were the case - for both - they probably wouldn't be engaged in the first place.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quantess]

124. They never kissed. But....

...maybe they had anal sex. Or maybe she gave him a hand job.

To some people, they would still be virgins.

[Deja Q]

142. That is an inference. Not a genuine fact.

Do you have proof either of them, at some point, admitted there was no sexual attraction?

[NashVegas]

151. Yes, That's Correct

Proof? Of course not, it's a simple observation. But it's one made from 35+ years of observing and living human nature. If it's incorrect, hey, I can live with that - but without further information than what's given in the news article, I still think that's a likely call. That so many people have wigged out over the observation and called me intolerant over a mere observation - when I made no judgment calls whatsoever - says more about their attitudes towards these situations than mine, IMO.

[undeterred]

97. Apparently its in fashion to be intolerant.

:shrug:

[Radical Activist]

56. Or a chump.

She was probably screwing a stranger in a bar last weekend.

[XemaSab]

69. Who's to say she's not the chump?

He could have been screwing a stranger in an airport bathroom yesterday.

[Radical Activist]

76. Probably both are.

[LisaL]

73. What exactly are you using as a standard to judge them on?

[AZBlue]

100. Wow. Glad you don't make assinine assumptions based upon stereotypes.

[NashVegas]

116. Yes, Because There's So Many Stereotypes To Choose From

When it comes to religious, dogmatic men who don't even want to kiss their girlfriends, lest it lead to something unchaste, and women who accept being in that situation.

[LisaL]

117. It is the other way around for this couple.

The woman wanted to not have sex until the marriage.
The guy went alone with it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

121. Nothing like casting dispersions on people who are different from you.

I can't think of the word for people who act like that. I bet you can though.

David

[gollygee]

3. My sister went to a wedding like that

Her church is like that - they don't think couples should even hold hands or kiss so as to not lead them into temptation. It's just weird IMO. I think information is good when entering into what is supposed to be a life-long commitment.

[sakabatou]

98. Very weird IMO

[PearliePoo2]

4. "I don't know how long it'll last, but it'll be great," says a confident Melody LaLuz

What?
She doesn't know how long their marriage will last? WTF?
Not the best-est attitude going in, do ya think?
Maybe she's being skeptical in case he's one lousy kisser.

[gollygee]

6. I was wondering if she was talking about the marriage or sex?

I thought it odd that people that religious would talk about marriage that way, but I thought it odd that they'd talk about sex that way too. Still, I assumed sex.

[Dark]

8. Maybe she means the kiss?

nt

[gollygee]

9. Ah - yeah that could be

that makes more sense.

[LisaL]

25. She is definetly talking about the kiss.

[michreject]

91. The kiss

Anyway. Good for them.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

5. They teach abstinence in Chicago PUBLIC Schools? I sincerely hope that the

receive other forms of sex ed, because most of the time, abstinence doesn't work.

[PearliePoo2]

10. You can ask the Palin clan about that! nt.

[Bucky]

29. I disagree

Abstinence works quite well. The problem is getting kids to work the abstinence. And for that, you have to educate them thoroughly about the whole topic of sex, sexuality, and the consequences of their behavior.

What doesn't work is abstinence-only education. After all, most of the shows on TV and artists in their iPods are already teaching kids that non-abstinence is expected and the best way of demonstrating high self-esteem.

[Deja Q]

39. Or it's taught ineffectively. Especially with peer pressure and the media's influence.

How to teach the kids that the media isn't real life, that it's okay to keep sex for special people under special conditions, that prophylactics aren't always effective, and other concerns.

The static "Penis + vagina = baby" routine is all and well, but without compassion and concern for one's fellow citizen, nothing will change for the better. Do you want a disease and the stigma? Well, ultimately people can choose to ditch the stigma and spread the disease, or have enough concern for one's self and the one they're with -- which should be more than just about... latex and spitting. :eyes:

Plus, some in the past may have learned the hard way (no puns intended) that casual sex leave people even more soulless than how a television show claims to.

[Dark]

7. 'they made sure they were never alone with each other in a house'? WTF?

So they've never had to spend time alone with each other where there was nothing else to do but talk, make out or have sex? That's idiotic.

I wish'em the best of luck, but I think holllywood marriages would last longer

[Liberal_in_LA]

11. By late 20s you'd think they'd developed some self control.

[PearliePoo2]

13. Most people do....

but if they're also fundie whackos, that usually means they HAVE no self control.

[Deja Q]

40. Or ensuring 0 risks. Extreme, yes, but just as plausible.

[TahitiNut]

12. Will they hang the bloody sheet on the clothes line? It's traditional.

:shrug:

[Bertha Venation]

14. Good for them for doing what is important to them. n/t

[PCIntern]

15. Old joke:

The couple had never been together during the courtship, so after the Reception, the bride goes into the bathroom to change in the Hineymoon Suite.

When she comes out the groom takes off his shoes and socks and his toes are all gnarly and disgusting. She says, "What's wrong with your toes?" He says, "When I was young I had Toe-lio."

She says, "I never heard of Toe-lio"

He then takes off his pants and his knees are similarly disgusting, gnarly and hairy.

She exclaims: "What's with your knees?!!"

He: When I was young I had knee-sles."

She: "I never heard of Knee-sles"

He then takes off his underpants and she says, "Oh ho, now you're gonna tell me you had "Small-cox, right?"

[Name removed]

16. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

17. Ha! Won my bet. They AREN'T from Wasilla.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. A friend's son who just got married in Sept had never had sex with his fiance

I was dying to know how my friend knew so much about her son's sex life but I didn't have the nerve to ask.

[Deja Q]

67. Like the old saying goes, "it's none of anybody's business".

Or so I keep hearing from other people; especially those who say it and then proceed to tell the world and media industry what they do in bed - and not for the sake of justifying any argument or adding context; they just want 15 minutes of screen time.

[NashVegas]

79. Self-delete

different circumstance

[orleans]

125. maybe the son's mother was similar to a mother i am aware of

she tells her son she doesn't want him to have sex before he is married. he says okay mom. and that's as far as it goes. the woman doesn't know how often the girlfriend stays at her son's apartment or visa versa. she doesn't know that her son has spent the night at his girlfriend's parent's house (with the girl's family there and okay with it).

crazy.

[madokie]

19. I call bullshit on that

[hendo]

20. Good for them

Its great that they lead by example.

[RC]

21. Just another example of the psychotic sexual views of this country.

Why is anyone even thinking this is a good thing? I can understand no sex till marriage. But the rest of it is totally psychotic. I'm wondering how badly any children will be abused when they do natural things that all young children do. We are sexual creatures after all.

[LisaL]

24. They look happy enough.

[Deja Q]

48. That's not the point. The point that they don't agree with the most myopic radical DUer *is*.

And it's damn well depressing, I must say.

[Deja Q]

42. And should people with credit cards rack up $200k in debt?

[Dreamer Tatum]

86. They seem happy. Maybe you should inform them of how miserable they are?

I mean, using yourself as a template.

Imagine, after all, the NERVE of two people acting of their own accord in a free society.

[LisaL]

94. Unless somebody tells them, how would they know they

ought to be miserable?

[AZBlue]

101. "Psychotic"? You're kidding, right?

[kskiska]

22. The Duggars

Episode 3: Josh Gets Engaged
Some people think waiting until your wedding day for your first kiss with your fiance is old fashioned. The Duggars disagree. In this episode we learn about dating and courtship Duggar style, including a hidden camera view of Josh popping the big question.

Episode 4: Duggar Dating Rules
Josh and his fiance Anna travel back from Florida to the Duggar home in Arkansas where Josh's mega-sized family greets them. In this episode we delve deeper into Duggar courtship rituals where handholding is a privilege, saving your first kiss for you wedding day is a must, and chaperones are always tagging along.

http://health.discovery.com/tv/duggars/tune-in.html

[shanti]

74. yes

they were the first ones i thought of after reading this story. no kissing before marriage!

[Fuzz]

23. Why do they have to throw their non-sexuality in our faces?

;)

[PufPuf23]

26. Christians and sex can be humorous.

I had an Alabamian explain to me in detail the sociology of the "side ways" hug.

Here is a forum I find humorous (aforesaid CoC culture Alabamian gave me the link) and some may find helpful and maybe is too sexy (or too Christian lol) for DU? Aside I do not consider myself Christian.

http://www.themarriagebed.com/boards/index.php

[Missy Vixen]

34. PufPuf, interesting link

I'm a former fundie. My college roommate also did not kiss her husband until the wedding. They have three kids now, so they must have figured it out. I think it's sad that there is so much emphasis on abstention and not enough about what happens after the wedding, actually living with the person, etcetera.

I was reading some of the "how'd your honeymoon go" stories at that site; I'm with those who wonder how many of those couples will end up splitting up because of sexual incompatibility. There was one story on there I wanted to mail the woman and say "just leave now" -- her new husband "doesn't have the patience" to help her have some pleasure, so to speak. I was also fairly interested in the guy who's told his fiancee he doesn't care if they ever have sex.

Run, run, RUN.
Julie

[Leftist Agitator]

27. Nothing would delight me more than these two idiots divorcing because of sexual incompatibility...

What fucking morons.

I sincerely hope that they both have an utterly unsatisfying sex life.

[Karenina]

61. How MEAN-SPIRITED! I wish them the best...

and hope they don't discover they are biochemically mismatched. Been there, done that. I was part of the only generation in human history to be afforded post-pubescent sex without fear of disease or death. I would not trade the lessons and knowledge I gained from those experiences for anything.
One was, the psychic and physical chemistry take a back seat to biochemistry. He was definitely a keeper but I was ALLERGIC to his body fluids.
Previous experience had taught me that this was NOT normal and it was not likely MY problem. Had we become more attached... I shudder to think. :scared:

[Deja Q]

62. There's more to life than just sex. Take your cynicism and shove it.

Sheesh, for everyone else all the DUers (CLAIM) happiness and bliss forever.

Oh, except when it's a couple that didn't jump in the sack before getting married.

You lot are DESPICABLE and INTOLERANT in that regard.

Get real and wake up.

[VOX]

81. Why do you wish for bad things for this couple? In what way have they personally offended you?

Do you know them well enough to heap such judgment upon them? In your mind, is there anything other than their personal choice to qualify them as "fucking morons"?

Don't let your inner Republican have this much control!

[Deja Q]

134. Probably because they have practiced a concept many on DU actively spit on.

Just goes to prove all sorts of things, I regret to say.

[Dreamer Tatum]

88. Idiots? Morons?

I suspect that you have exactly the "utterly unsatisfying sex life" you've wished on them.

[AZBlue]

102. They're the "fucking morons"? Really? Have you read your idiotic post?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

107. Just because you are impotent doesn't mean you need to wish it on other people.

[Fearless]

114. WHY? What could you possibly gain from that?

This thread is getting stupider by the moment.

:wtf:

[leftynyc]

145. You sound like a very

unhappy person. You should see someone about that.

[FedUpWithIt All]

156. Terrible hatred you have there. Did they kill your puppy or something? Geeez.

May this couple have a good, healthy and long life together. And props to them for not being hypocrites and actually standing by their convictions in word AND action.

[Bucky]

28. I wish the happy couple all the best

You notice, however, that they never said they refrained from hand jobs.

[PCIntern]

30. "No kissing...but I'll give you a hand job"

Sounds about right...

[Fearless]

32. Don't forget the condom. ...Condo-what?

:eyes:

[Missy Vixen]

35. My money's on low sex drive or another issue

Those practicing this lifestyle aren't typically alone with their intended, either.

I went to Bible college, where people would get engaged with amazing speed and get married without really knowing each other. I heard several years ago that the divorce rate among attendees of the school was higher than the national average.

Julie

[LisaL]

52. If they had low sex drive or no sex drive then they wouldn't be

concerned of being alone together.

[Missy Vixen]

95. It's impossible for me to understand anyone who claims to love

another person, but will not engage in physical intimacy with that person. They're "concerned" about being alone? Wait till they spend the rest of their lives "alone".

I still believe my "low sex drive" theory is correct. We'll see.

In the meantime, that "marriage bed" site linked to earlier in the thread is unbelievable. I'm wondering how many that post there are actually getting off on the discussions.

IMHO, YMMV,
Julie

[Deja Q]

41. Right. You hold her down, I'll examine her hands for herpes, warts, cooties, et cetera...

And I'll be sure to wear MY rubber gloves. I don't want to catch it.

[readmoreoften]

33. What kind of deep conversations did they have with chaperoned dating?

Great role models. :eyes:

[LisaL]

77. I don't know what conversation they had, but he did a lot of

useful things, like washing the car and doing the dishes. Read the article.

[gollygee]

80. Great then. If she were hiring a butler she'd be set.

I have no problem with the "no sex before marriage" thing. It isn't what I chose but I know plenty of people who did and are just as happy as my husband and I are. A year later, it makes no difference.

But I do think a good amount time alone to interact with each other without company would be useful.

[LisaL]

82. They knew each other for three years.

The article says they wouldn't stay alone in the house. Which doesn't mean they couldn't go alone to the movies, or whatever.

[gollygee]

85. Oh, I might have read it too quickly

I thought it said they hadn't been alone together at all. No big deal as far as that goes. I think the "no kissing" thing is a bit silly but not a big deal as far as how the relationship will go.

[readmoreoften]

122. So any conversation that's suitable for public consumption. How emotionally intimate.

:eyes:

I still call bullshit. What sanctimonious crap. I guess neither of them have sexual assault issues to negotiate before the marriage. Or maybe they discuss that during the open credits. If you've never been alone with your partner in private before marriage, you're not marrying a boyfriend, you're marrying a fond acquaintance. These are the same fuckwads who'd deny a lesbian couple who've been together for 50 years the right to marriage.

This trivializes marriage, it doesn't sanctify it.

[LisaL]

123. Why exactly would you be negotiating sexual assault issues

before marriage?
:crazy:

[Deja Q]

36. Nice to see cynicism and intolerance is alive and well on DU.

:eyes:

[LisaL]

38. It sure is. But what else is new?

The couple seems happy and in love. But no, some DU posters just can't believe they are happy and in love if they chose to live their life differently.

[Deja Q]

46. Irony is a wonderful thing.

Of course, I shouldn't speak in riddles, but nobody can't say I don't liven discussions, that's for sure...

[VOX]

89. Amen, HT--The ability to see things from another person's point of view is virtually absent here.

I can't get over the lack of compassion and tolerance on display.

Very sad.

[Fearless]

110. Kick.

:kick:

[Deja Q]

133. Very sad indeed. When tolerance becomes inconvenient to their beliefs, it's chucked out the window.

Anyone else, love is a good thing.

For those who wait to touch, they're nutcases or repressing themselves or any of the other two-faced monkey gibber that passes as "intellectual conversation".

And, no, it's not sad.

IT'S DOWNRIGHT DISGUSTING.


And some people wonder why I made snide remarks* from time to time. Maybe they'll figure it out one day. Maybe not.



* of which I'm repressing myself right now.

[Confusious]

43. I would never marry a woman

I hadn't lived with for a year. So that implies sex.

I made that rule because of the first long term girlfriend I ever had. Everything was going great until we moved in together, then WHAM!. Anal retention set in on her part. Me, not so much of the anal. breakup in 6 months.

If I had to marry her, I would either be divorced, or in a living hell.

[LisaL]

51. Really, whatever works for you.

Doesn't mean it has to be the same for everyone else.
There are plenty of cultures in the world that practice arranged marriage, where there is not only no sex, but people barely know each other. Yet I don't think divorce rate is higher than it is here in US.

[gollygee]

53. Is divorce even allowed in most places that have arranged marriages?

And is it culturally acceptable? I don't think that arranged marriage is something to aspire to.

[LisaL]

55. Did I say it's something to aspire to?

:eyes:

[gollygee]

57. No, you just made an invalid comparison

If people can't leave those marriages as easily, of course the divorce rate wouldn't be high.

[RainDog]

59. no but you tried to imply equivalency

between the poster's view of sexual compatibility as important and the view that sexual compatibility is of no concern in places in the world with arranged marriages.

the irony, of course, is that those cultures that practice arranged marriages are also the cultures that are the most misogynistic. Demographer Emmanuel Todd, among others, has noted that democracy is strongest in places in which females are educated and have economic independence. Both of these factors are less common in cultures with arranged marriages.

People can be happy without sex or marriage.. or with arranged marriages. But those cultures that practice arranged marriages are NOT worth using as examples of "choice" because women have far fewer choices, or the ability to make those choices.

[leftynyc]

147. And I'd never live with a man

I wasn't married to (except in a roommate type of situation like I had in college). If I'm going to give up my freedom and share my living space, it's going to be for a much better reason than convenient sex. Everyone has their own thing.

[Obamarama]

44. I think this is totally bizarre and completely against human nature.

But, hey, if it works for them and it's important to them, then I couldn't care less.

The only problem I have with it is if they think everyone needs to engender their values and that those who don't are sinning heathens.

I want to say "BRAVO" if this works for you, but for some reason I can't help but think they are likely some batshit crazy conservative wingnuts who want to institute a Christian Taliban.

[Deja Q]

63. oops, duplicated

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g_eJ92JqOSUgBAO-0WQFOHJDlXig

[Deja Q]

64. Well, unlike 25% of New York City, I bet those two don't have herpes.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g_eJ92JqOSUgBAO-0WQFOHJDlXig

[AZBlue]

104. I don't see anywhere that it says "everyone needs to engender their values"

but if you want to jump to absurd conclusions, hey, that's your prerogative.

[Deja Q]

135. It'd be nice if everyone did (not as much infidelity or disease, but...

that's what counselors and drugs people love to claim make illicit profits because "there is no profit in a cure" are for!)

[LanternWaste]

160. aiting can sometimes have a positive or beneficial result...

"...completely against human nature."

Though I agree that waiting on instinct and bodily drives are completely against human nature, I doubt we'd like to live in a world in which we gave into those instincts and drives whenever they approached-- it'd be a pretty stinky world if everyone defecated and urinated whenever the urge hit. So I imagine that waiting can sometimes have a positive or beneficial result...

Either that, or we're all of us "batshit crazy conservative wingnuts" for not taking a dump wherever/whenever...

[juno jones]

45. How long will it last?

About 20 seconds.

Abstinence doesn't usually produce insightful or tender lovers. It tends to produce women who have never learned to orgasm and men who are so pent-up that the pleasure is generally quick and one-sided. If marriage is ideally for life, then a certain kicking of the tires is probably recommended. Oh, and perhaps you should learn how to drive, first?

A broad brush, sure, but a situation I've seen repeated over the years.

[gollygee]

47. The abstinence thing doesn't get me

I know people who have waited till marriage and they seem to do OK.

BUT I am a bit worried about never even having been alone together before they got married. It doesn't seem like they've had much of a chance to get to know each other. You interact differently when it's just the two of you than when surrounded by other people.

[XemaSab]

75. Not just the different interaction when it's two people one-on-one

but the different interaction when two people have been together for 10 hours.... or 10 days.

Abstinence is all well and good, but I would NEVER marry someone that I hadn't gone on at LEAST a two week vacation with. You can sleep in separate beds or separate rooms even, but can you keep it together for days on end?

[LisaL]

126. If living together prior to marriage

was a guarantee for a happy marriage, one would think there'd be a whole lot more of a happy marriages in US. Or at least less divorces.

[gollygee]

136. I don't think it makes any difference whether couples live together as far as divorce rates go

I'm talking about simply spending time together alone. Non-sexual time. Time negotiating with each other, time discussing things just between them. I don't think it's a good idea to marry someone without spending a good amount of time alone together, and particularly time spent doing something other than sexual things.

[juno jones]

148. I agree, What weirds me in this is

the insistence on never being alone or even cuddling. As any married person knows, there are long stretches when it really just the two of you. My mother emphasised 'friendship' as one of the criteria upon which she chose my dad. And that 'intimacy' thing everyone, even christianists, talk about. Neither are accomplished by separating yourself from your (future) spouse.

My ex held himself off until 22 to marry his first wife, also 22 and a virgin. I got him second hand after the first marriage broke up after 5 years because of 'sexual and mental incompatbility'. Needless to say, he learned a lot from me and our divorce in 7 years had nothing to do with our lack of sex life or intimacy issues.

Let me add mea culpa, I'm wired like Liz Taylor. In the end: after we divorced, we each, within weeks, met people whom we've been with for almost 12 years respectively now.

[treestar]

154. Everybody has to start someplace

I kind of object to this "training" that has to take place before someone can fall in love with me. I have to be "good enough" at this particular activity or the guy can't love me? Sounds like such a guy would care only about himself, and is not capable of love, or that condition wouldn't be there. He'd be willing to show me.

People who need to "test drive" another certainly aren't all that close to them and therefore, never intended to marry them anyway. That's objectifying the person.

[Karenina]

54. Freaks of nature on parade!!!

:evilgrin:

[AZBlue]

105. Rude.

[RainDog]

58. to each his/her own

I would never marry someone if I wasn't sexually compatible with him. actually, I would never marry someone (been there, done that) but I don't think that I, as an adult, have to be abstinent simply because I choose not to marry.

I hope they celebrate my choice, too, since its purpose is to reaffirm sexual happiness and empowerment for women.. and men for that matter.

[Liberal_in_LA]

60. Update: The couple got married today. This story was reported on the NATIONAL news

:eyes:

[RainDog]

66. vomitus-worthy

really. I have taught my children to be responsible. Abstinence is one option, but it's not realistic to think it's a good thing for everyone. I would much prefer information and access to about birth control if it's an "either/or" choice. But of course, it shouldn't be "either/or."

in any case, I hope they preserved some portion of the hymen so that they can embalm it in formaldehyde and keep it in a case in the biology lab. it's *just* that important.

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

70. Good response.

It shouldn't be either/or. But despite the wealth of information available, disease rates and other unsavory factors still rise despite the population not keeping the ratio the same. Which is why some would rather wait and develop trust over time - another trait that's lost on 21st century society, oh how evolved we are.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g_eJ92JqOSUgBAO-0WQFOHJDlXig

[RainDog]

78. venereal disease was rampant in Victorian England, too

but the Victorians didn't want to promote the use of condoms (which had existed in GB since AT LEAST the 1600s - back then they were tied on, fwiw) because they didn't want people to have sex outside of marriage. However, if you were a ten year old girl, later raised to 12 years old, you were of age and could be married. Of course, the reason 10 year olds were "of age" was really tied to the pervasiveness of prostitution. Young girls needed to bring home money - poor parents died young - life was harsh and short. Parents died young.

So yeah, people who engage in sex with multiple partners may get some sort of STD. However, lots and lots of people who are not abstinent are not engaging in sex with multiple partners. this is the problem with this issue... it's not a matter of being a gang banger or being abstinent. it's not a matter of being abstinent or having sex after you say hello.

however, too often the issue is presented in this way in America. America is seriously fucked up about issues of sexuality... and the reason for this has much to do with religious intrusion in all areas of life for all of us, whether we want the puritans in our bedrooms or not.

oh, and speaking of... bundling was the big deal back in the day. The early settlers saw no need to get married if a marriage could not produce children, so couples would "bundle," or have sex until they saw if the female could get pregnant. If she could, they got married.

[Deja Q]

138. a fair response, VD is hardly new, and world population has skyrocketed since then.

So has media and the ability to make awareness.


Speaking of gang banging, I noted the lack of the following article on the day it came out (maybe I missed it):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27681660/wid/11915773?GT1=31037
(a report, copied directly from the AP - if anyone doesn't believe that, they can search for the original AP article.)

"By committing these acts, (the accused) has shown himself to have a serious lack of respect for the rights of others," the three-judge panel's written ruling said. "While he knew from his own experience what far-reaching consequences are tied to an infection with HIV, he repeatedly attempted to bring this same hurt to others."

Prosecutors had argued that the two men, along with a third who was acquitted of major charges, had drugged the 14 victims and intentionally infected them.

But in Wednesday's ruling, judges said while the victims all had HIV, it could not be proven that they were infected by the injections because they willingly took part in orgies where the men had unprotected sex.

(emphasis added, name and adjectives removed so I won't get flamed with any undeserved bullshit)

A minor update can be found here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7668444.stm



In short, most people just don't care. I know people whose 14 year old daughters get pregnant and the happy so-called boyfriend promptly vamooses.

Society has learned a lot... to no advantage whatsoever. We're as evolved as the common guppy.

[Deja Q]

68. George Takei and what's-his-name got married too. So frigging what?

[spoony]

129. My position exactly.

If we're going to be for consenting adults doing what they want with their relationships, that has to apply to everyone.

[mudesi]

65. I don't see this marriage lasting (nm)

[LisaL]

71. I beg to differ.

It will likely last more than most marriages. The couple seems to have a lot of common interests.

[Deja Q]

72. which outlasts even the strongest of sexual compatibility.

The media is either very greedy or very bright to encourage rampant or perceived sexuality in a readily exploratory manner. But the latter would suggest a conspiracy worthy of a tinfoil hat. :tinfoilhat: Ooga-booga.

[LynneSin]

83. I hate to say it but Kissing has gotten me into trouble more than enough times

but still - I think it's a bit too ridiculous

[Greyhound]

84. Lookit the Freaks! n /t

[Dreamer Tatum]

90. Yes this IS quite a thread, isn't it?

Unless you're referring to the couple in the news story, that is.

[AZBlue]

106. Couldn't agree more!

:thumbsup:

[Fearless]

112. Stellar.

[Deja Q]

132. Quite. It shows why DU is truly made of.

[Evoman]

93. Lol....if I don't get a kiss after the first date, I call it a bust and I'm done.

My modus operandi is a base a week...or a base a date if I can pull it off.

And trust me, I'm always trying to pull it off :rofl:

Of course, I'm everything but engaged now, so no more of that dating stuff for me.

[dansolo]

96. They seem a little hypocritical to me

Abstinence is fine, but they are sending very contradictory messages. On one hand, they are pushing the notion of abstinence, but on the other, they seem to to have gone to extreme measures to avoid even the slightest temptation. If they truly believed in abstinence, then they should have enough self-control to avoid things going to far. Their arrangement seems to reinforce the idea that abstinence-only education cannot work on it's own, because human nature will take over eventually, even between two mature adults (as opposed to hormone driven teens).

[Deja Q]

141. That is a rationalization. A good one, but a rationalization nonetheless.

They are taking no chances.

And given their educational slant, they were only taking the point the extra step. If that wasn't a factor, then your response wouldn't be as much of a rationalization.

I will say it's a good, thought-provoking point...

[Qibing Zero]

103. Marriage before sex is suspect at best,

..marriage before living together is completely nuts. I don't even know what to call marriage before kissing.

'Sanctity of marriage' has reached the political level of doublespeak.

[Deja Q]

139. These days, what HASN'T reached the "political level of doublespeak"?

[mondo joe]

111. Their relationship is their business. But teaching abstinence is a failing proposition,

and I have no respect for anyone wasting the education of kids.

[cushla_machree]

119. Wonder if one of them kisses really badly?

And then your married. I've dated people that you couldn't pay me to kiss again, just awful. I can't imagine marrying someone and not knowing if we are compatible in any way. I wouldn
t want to find out on my wedding night that my Boyfriend kisses like a fish, let alone the sex part.

[book_worm]

120. To each his/her own--what do I care? Good luck to them.

[orleans]

127. i certainly would never do anything like that. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

128. So why is it okay for Conservative Sex-Puritans to "Flaunt" their lifestyles?

I thought people were supposed to keep that information to themselves.

[Deja Q]

144. Why not look outside the box...

I just addressed yon question somewhere above, or below.

It's opened my eyes too...

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Heidi]

131. The bride's analogy: "You can't take the car out of the parking lot until you pay for it."

I wish these two every happiness, but I'm troubled by the analogy, re: "...pay for it."

[gollygee]

137. I don't like that too

it's a new version of the cow/milk cliche.

And really, yes you can take a car out of the lot to test drive without paying for it anyway.

[Heidi]

149. I guess it's her business if she wants to consider herself "for sale,"

but you're right: she apparently has never test driven a car at a dealership. :rofl:

[Love Bug]

140. Why does anyone care about their celebacy?

Why does anyone even know about this and why do couples like this get held up as examples? We still have a lot of guilt and shame about sex in our society if we think such an extreme form of abstenance is a good idea. If they want to abstain, that's their business, but why do they feel it's necessary to tell others?

[Deja Q]

143. Because the media foists sexuality and relationships (often divorces) every, what, 10 seconds? More,

If nothing else, it's as much an inference that the media DOES alter peoples' lives.

Indeed, about telling others about their personal lives, why do gay people need to tell people they're GLBT? Ricky Martin, for example, used to say "it's nobody's business" and then, 5 or so years later, felt the need to "come out" and tell the world his personal life. What changed his mind between 2000 and (April) 2007?

I bet the core reason as to why is the same: AWARENESS and that such concepts DO EXIST, regardless of the bile people like to spit as forms of petty entertainment.

Our society is an ambivalent paradox of a two-faced conundrum. Regardless of "side" they are on.

Once the ball starts rolling, how is it stopped?

[RainDog]

152. humans do not need media to have sexual desire

honestly. sexuality is not an invention of the media. people were having sex outside of marriage long before television or any other sort of mass media.

Takai's marriage was about the changing law - the discrimination against homosexuals who have been denied the rights that heteros have assumed comes with a choice to commit to another person - his "news worthy" moment is nothing like this couple who have made a fetish of abstinence. If this couple had been denied the right to marry for generations, then it would be equivalent. But it's not because the reality is that this couple is being featured because of their views of sexuality -she apparently sees marriage as a form of long-term prostitution and she held out for the highest bidder or some such b.s.

the reality is that, historically, when society totally forbade sex outside of marriage, and when divorce was not possible - marriage wasn't the traditional outlet for love and romance. Instead, couples were married, stayed married no matter what, and then had affairs with others that they loved.

This is the reality.

There has NEVER been a time in history in which abstinence and sexual fidelity were the reality - they were the show, just like this is the show.

[Vickers]

146. "But honey, these genital warts were a gift from Jesus!"

:P

[Rebubula]

158. I Lol'd

Yeah...I fear for the length of this marriage.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tabbycat31]

153. I had a college roommate like that

she was with her bf (a year older than her) for most of high school, then followed him to the same college (far away). The two of them never even kissed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

155. Whatever floats their boat. But presenting it as an ideal for others is wrong.

Their relationship is not a success, it is a choice.

Those that choose to be active are not failures, they just made a different choice.

[Deja Q]

159. To all the heckling jackanapes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/29/a-more-perfect-union-expe_n_147145.html

Oddly, "jackanapes" works as singular or plural, but in this case I mean plural.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861677024/jackanapes.html