Please, Catholics, explain to me what has happened

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

to the church in the last forty years. John XXIII was a man of immense heart, humanity and goodness. I am an atheist (raised Lutheran) but hold him in the highest regard. He was Christlike in the best possible sense of the term, a warm, open man with great generosity of spirit and a humaneness that is still inspiring. He truly seemed to believe in the universal brotherhood of humanity and did everything he could to advance that belief. Like the Dalai Lama, he represented everything that is good in spiritual aspiration. What happened?

His successors, even JPII, admirable in many ways, but ultimately a prisoner of dogma, have been crabbed, hidebound and joyless men. Benny the Rat is a bad lawyer, resting everything on archaic precedent and ignoring the world as people live in it. Was John's joy in humanity and open-heartedness that much of an aberration?

[Throckmorton]

1. Yes, it was N/T

[mrreowwr_kittty]

2. Well, from what I understand, too many educated people are Catholic

And that's fucking the whole plan up, apparently. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3464073/Educated-Catholics-have-sown-dissent-and-confusion-in-the-Church-claims-bishop.html

[bridgit]

3. You've encapsulated John in a very positive way. I've yet to see...

audiences before this new pope as the creative humanity that flowed before John i.e. people born with no arms singing like angels, playing guitars with their feet as John walks over tears in his eyes the placing of hands nope...not the new pope, he's different or maybe more of the same

I wonder having heard some of the new pope's utterances regarding dogma and Islam, if, and yeah, I know; The Holy See :scared: didn't make that decision because they feel encroached upon by a contemporaneous surge of middle eastern fundamentalism. Cause that dog *will* hunt, it's been hunting for millinea now. The new pope may be just another brick in the wall.

I liked the nice pope better :)

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

8. John XXIII was a miracle

He began his life as a simple parish priest, who dealt every day with the problems of ordinary parishoners, and eventually became Pope. How many Popes, before or since, have come from such humble beginnings?

[Ron Green]

4. Don't forget the Medici Popes, now those guys were

a piece of work, eh?

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

6. The Medici popes were the BFEE of their era

not to mention the Borgias. :)

[Retrograde]

5. Catholics are getting just too educated for their own good

All those women who would have been happy to be nuns a hundred years ago are getting careers. The men who would have been priests are questioning whether celibacy is a good thing. So the people going into religious orders now -and for the last 30 or 40 years - are the fanatics. And in the case of the priests, they're part of a centuries-old tradition that priests are god's chosen.

It's a simplification, of course, but there are more options for young people these days. So the pope and others high in the hierarchy are surrounded only by the true believers.

[MN Farmer]

7. Being a nun or a priest is a career

Not one that a person will get rich or attain world wide fame and glory, but a career just the same.

Many nuns and priests work with the sick, the homeless, the downtrodden to help them better their lives. To say that their works are below that of a person working a meaningless job is just insulting.

There are those in the clergy who are really good people, and young ones at that. My parents parish has a young priest (under 30), who is constantly doing one thing or another for the betterment of the community as a whole, regardless of faith. He even helps coach the local HS athletics, and refuses a salary.

Priests are not "God's Chosen" as you say, but people who have felt a special calling to serve the people instead of serve the almighty dollar. Those who look down their noses at this sacrifice of an entire lifetime should step back and re-think their hypocrisy.

[Itchinjim]

9. Well said.

[Berry Cool]

10. JPI seemed like a decent fellow for the short time he lasted.

Too bad he died.

[47of74]

22. I wonder what direction the church would've taken

I wonder what direction the church would've taken if John Paul I had lived longer. I think they would've been positive and sweeping changes and maybe the church would not be facing some of the problems it does today if John Paul had been granted the time to leave his mark on the church.

[mmonk]

11. Ratz and the dogmatists happened.

Catholicism has had a liberal tradition within it that in the last couple of decades has been steadily attacked and snuffed out from within by a conservative coalition. The problem with their move is that there is still a substantial amount of laity and religious that is part of the liberal tradition that are now being isolated as more of the doctrinaires have solidified in the hierarchy. Conflicts will assuredly continue and will result most likely in more people leaving the Church and priesthood. In fact, my last Parish priest quit over the politics and decided to become a math teacher after years of seminary and the priesthood. It will reach a head at some point soon.

[JHB]

12. Same thing that happened to the Republican party, to Southern Baptists, Wall St., etc.

When a lot of institutions needed some "course corrections" in the 60's and 70's, a bunch of hardline ideologues exploited various divisions to yank the wheel hard over and go in a completely different direction.

That the new course would eventually put us all up against the rocks wasn't much of a consideration: being the Top Rat was.

[mdmc]

13. yes, it was

but people still remember. We will get there again...

[MillieJo]

14. It seems to me that American Catholic leaders

are especially right-wing and political. The Catholic Church in Europe is fight against cultural changes, even in Spain and Italy the numbers that attend are falling because the priests are increasingly out of date. In Italy some Cardinal may mouth of about how people should vote but they are just seen as old-fashioned.
I am a Catholic in Britain, though I go to a Jesuit Parish the only political comment from the Pulpit I have heard is tha voting is essential to keep extremists like the BNP out of our government. Abortion laws change by an act of parliment so it isn't a real political issue. The biggest issue has been embryonic stem cell research, which is distingushed for adult stem cell research. which The Catholic Church fully supports.
In the UK voting is still essentially a very private thing, between the voter and the ballot box. People register to vote but never
have to have a party affliction. Some people have signs to vote for their candidate by many regard it as uncouth. So it is tough to deny anyone Communion when the voting ballot is a secret ballot and nobody elses business.
It also seems to be that Catholic leaders are being picky The Pope says about voting, this is what he actually says...



"When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons."

-Cardinal Ratzinger, 2004

A 106 year old Nun, living in Rome, voted for Obama, I seriously doubt anyone will ex-communicate her or suggest that she should be.

For the record, my parish has an American Priest from Illinios and he is lovely, laid back, very easy to talk to and though I have never discussed politics with him, I know from his character he is not a Republican, he believes in social justice, which is why he is a Jesuit.

[MillieJo]

15. n/t

[Eryemil]

16. I don't see what the big deal is

The Church has changed very little where it matters. It is still homophobic and misogynistic and this is not likely to change for a long time.
Change of leadership has not really had much of an impact.

[noel711]

17. All progress happens in cycles...

If you look at the vast swathe of church history,
every bold, reforming step of change is followed by
a counter reaction of dogmatic 'correction.'

John 23, who like many post war figures,
blossomed with the optimism of the times. And yes, there was a
reactive 'correction' after his death.

The current 'occupant' of St. Peter's chair is a 'place holder'
so to speak. Insiders believe that at the times of JOhn Paul's death
there wasn't a fitting successor in the 'line.' Ratzinger is simply holding the
throne warm for the heir apparent. He's old, won't last long.

What's/who's next? To quote Yeats, who knows 'what rough beast lurches toward Bethlehem...'

One can only be hopeful: in a time where a Barack Obama can be elected,
perhaps the Roman Catholic royalty can elect a corresponding person of hope and change
to react to the reactivity of conservatism.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

18. Wonderful thread, and thanks to all who contributed constructively

which are a vast majority. Extract the patriarchy and horrified fear of female sexuality from the Church and it would be a force for good. Too bad that will never happen except in the minds of individual priests primal

[ACTION BASTARD]

19. JP was a "real Catholic" and helped save Jews escape from the nazis. But Ratzo?

Ratzo put on the nazi uniform and served gleefully for the Wehrmacht.

[rug]

20. Sex swallowed theology, charity and common sense.

[lovuian]

21. the Vatican is the Mafia the Godfather said it so well

its a church who is dying out

[WildEyedLiberal]

23. It's similar to what happened in the US after the 60s - a massive conservative backlash

Thank you for your kind words about Pope John XXIII, a true saint if ever there was one. Vatican II was a courageous and much needed thing, and the backlash from the prelates who realized that its ultimate fulfillment would be a significant loss of their tight authoritarian grip has been devastating. As a practicing Catholic, I sincerely hope that one day the bishops and cardinals will reach JXXIII's level of enlightenment. I think the church hierarchy will have to change or die; too many Catholics are becoming disgusted with the extreme conservative polarization of the bishops and resent the forced rightward shift and petty politicization of church doctrine.