I got called " a republican" beacuse I dislike Michael Moore

[Athens30603]

For real. After explaining that Michael Moore is a sham and a fraud and in no way a true documentary filmmaker I got called a Republican by one of his mesmerized drones here in town.
The thing that made this person really flip put on me is when I said Moore was the Rush Limbaugh of the left (i.e a liar and a scare-monger).

I'd love to know who else here really dislikes Moore and thinks he does progressive politics a disservice.

[Joe Chi Minh]

1. Not many, I would think. He has exposed far more major criminality,

however informal, sometimes, in nature, than he has misrepresented the truth.

I don't say he's a pillar of integrity, but he's performed yeoman service to the American people with his exposes.

[20score]

2. Hell, Michael Moore is great film maker, and a scapegoat. Being right about Bush

is something to be commended. Scapegoating him on the other hand, is something to be condemned.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Trajan]

4. Your not going to make many friends here either ...

So let me ask you: What is it about Michael Moore that so offends you ?

Is it the content of his messages ?

The way he delivers his messages ?

His overall demeanor ?

That he is loud and abrasive ?

Is he right or wrong ?

[Athens30603]

14. Wait, wait, WHOA!!!

I AGREE with Moore politically 99% of the time (except all his gun control fear-mongering) but I don't like how his movies are devised to yield a conclusion he has already, independently reached. It's just bad film making. He manipulates time lines to reach conclusions that aren't true (such as the failure of Auto World in "Roger & Me" which folded a long time before GM pulled out of Flint, MI. But in the film he makes it seem as if it was a result of GM's pulling out).

Can't I agree with someones political stance but think they're a bad messenger? I don't see how this makes me an "asshole" a "jerk" or a "republican".

[Trajan]

29. Whoa ?

I didnt call you any names ..... I asked reasonable questions ....

In any case: Moore is a propagandist, and while his work stretches things like timelines (sometimes) to create an impression of cause, most of us are glad he targets those on the right, in the republican party, because THEY are our opponent ....

Perhaps you are catching hell because being the enemy of our friend makes you appear to be a friend of our enemy ... If you catch my drift ....

So maybe your usage of language is creating this image that you are a 'republican' .... Republicans hate Moore, and you hate Moore .... Maybe you need to temper your language to show you agree with basic conclusions but disagree with his propagandizing methods ....

[Athens30603]

37. yes, that's right

Yes, that's better said: I agree with him politically but dislike his methodology. I tried to explain this to the person I was speaking with but they wouldn't have any of it. They just could not fathom that someone would agree with someone's basic message but not agree with the way they went about spreading it.

(PS: no, you didn't call me names but a lot of folks here did and I was kind of responding to everyone at once. sorry. :)

[baby_mouse]

43. That's a level of subtlety a little beyond the majority of posters here.

I agree with you and I certainly wouldn't have posted that OP.

[Athens30603]

91. Thanks. I think I'm finally starting to learn

what all the sacred cows are around here.

[baby_mouse]

119. Ah, just stick 'em on ignore.

They're only here to get a rise out of people and there's surprisingly few of them.

[Athens30603]

125. Done. :)

[last1standing]

50. How is calling him a liar, sham and fraud explaining?

You called Moore all those things and haven't been able to back them up at all. Then you called the guy who corrected you a "mesmerized drone". There's only one liar, sham and fraud in this discussion....

[Athens30603]

57. nah, Moore's not here. ;) n/t

[last1standing]

61. But you, unfortunately, are and that's just enough to prove my point.

n/t

[baby_mouse]

72. Okay, I'm ignoring YOU...

[last1standing]

83. Awww! Bye-bye, baby.

:rofl:

[devilgrrl]

97. Did that just ruin your day or what?

:spray:

[last1standing]

100. Its like when that old guy from two blocks down and around the corner doesn't wave when you drive by

You know the one who's name you don't know and are never really sure if he actually lives there or is visiting.

I'm always devastated by that, aren't you? :rofl:

[NorthCarolina]

196. You know what though..at least he's out there TRYING to bring about change

and while for whatever reason you don't agree with his methods, even though you claim to support 99% of his politics, at least he is making a difference. Of course, since you claim to agree 99% with his politics, is it a safe assumption that you don't have a problem the fruits of his labors?

[Athens30603]

198. If any fruits have been borne

I think that's great! Although, even though i do agree with him politically, I've never met anyone who was swayed from their opinion because of his work. So i don't know how much fruit has been borne but I'm glad for all that has been.

[cushla_machree]

117. How is that bad?

but I don't like how his movies are devised to yield a conclusion he has already, independently reached.

Bill Maher did that with religulous. What are examples of him manipulating data and time lines?

[Athens30603]

127. It's bad research.

It causes a person to ignore data that isn't convenient.

[cushla_machree]

148. It isn't research

Its social commentary. A documentary film is a broad category of visual expression.

Bowling wasn't a history lesson, it was a film that raised questions about America's love of guns and proclivity for violence. They were questions he raised..He was trying to undercut the correlation between gun ownership and gun violence and look more into how our society is different or what it is about us that creates this atmosphere. And sure, he knew the direction he wanted this to go. Its not a documentary in the traditional sense. And I don't think anyone is really going to try and tell you that it is. The point was to raise those questions and show some connections....you don't have to agree with it, but it DID get you talking about it. Mission accomplished there.

I suggest Sick, as i think it is his best work. He lets the people and the story talk for itself...whether he evolved as a filmmaker or tried a different style, I don't know. I like to think he is just getting better. I find no evidence of fraud...an you should actually watch the work of somoene you are criticizing before you criticize them.

[Athens30603]

157. I've seen tons of Moore stuff, though

Just not Sicko or F911. Which is why I never said anything about those specifically.
Sicko is on my "to see" list.

I dunno. I just like documentaries to be, I guess, more academic.

[cushla_machree]

206. I have friends who do documentaries

They major in it for college...Some of them are academic...others tell a narrative.

I really liked Traces of the trade: a story from the deep north. It's a documentary that traces the authors family history of slavery in the north...but watching it, she definitely led the discussion in some areas she wanted to touch on. Which is why calling some of Moores films documentaries is a stretch...i just think the genre is so broad..that it can mean almost anything. I suppse he could be documentary propaganda.

[DeltaLitProf]

192. Even granting your inaccurate memory of the film . . .

. . . how does this even BEGIN to compare to Rush Limbaugh's calling feminists feminazis or beating the drums for the catastrophic decision to invade Iraq or labelling the Katrina victims as criminals and welfare recipients unworthy of federal help?

[Athens30603]

194. Where is my memory inaccurate?

[DeltaLitProf]

189. Your memory of the film is suspect

GM had slashed jobs BEFORE the construction of Autoworld. And Autoworld failed as GM began slashing more and more jobs.

[Athens30603]

191. That's how Moore portrayed it

But that's not how it happened.

[Bluenorthwest]

158. He's offended because Mike is sucessful

and he's some wannbe. In show biz, it is the oldest of stories. One can smell it from a mile away after a few years in the trenches.

[Athens30603]

170. Wannabe what? n/t

[lob1]

5. I agree with your friend. You're a jerk imho.

[countingbluecars]

6. I love Michael Moore.

What has he lied about?

[ingac70]

7. Michael Moore is nothing like Limbaugh. n/t

[Blue-Jay]

8. Explain how he's a "sham" & a "fraud", if you don't mind.

Be specific.

[Athens30603]

15. see Post #14 n/t

[Blue-Jay]

22. FAIL!

I'll ask again that you explain why SPECIFICALLY Moore is a sham and a fraud. Cite examples.

[Athens30603]

30. reassembling news footage to manipulate timelines

in a narrative isn't fraudulent?

[Blue-Jay]

59. Do you know the legal definition of the word "fraud"?

I suspect not.

Still, you've yet to cite ONE example. I'll wait.

[Athens30603]

65. keep waiting. I'm typing.

[Blue-Jay]

68. OK. I'll assume that you can prove fraud.

[Athens30603]

66. I use "fraud" to mean

a deception for personal gain or to impugn or harm another person.

[Blue-Jay]

71. C&P as much as you want.

I ain't buying what you're selling.

[Athens30603]

77. "C & P"??

[Blue-Jay]

81. Crap & Poop, ya n00b.

It means "copy & paste".

[Athens30603]

87. ah! I shoulda known that. damn.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. I don't dislike him, but you're right that he's not a...

documentarian, at least if you consider a documentarian as a noncommitted observer. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a liar, although he has been known to skate around facts a bit.

Moore is great at what he does, but what he does is propaganda. Propaganda I tend to agree with, but propaganda nonetheless.

(And you will be called worse than that around here if you dare dis The Moore)

[Athens30603]

32. Yeah, that's kind of how I see him, too.

I agree with him politically very often but, yeah, it's pure propaganda.

[anniebelle]

10. I'd say being called a repuke is the least of your problems!

How about arrogant and idiotic, for starters.

[Athens30603]

33. Compared to Moore? Wow. That says a lot. n/t

[baby_mouse]

145. .....aaaaand YOU....

[tridim]

11. I probably shouldn't, but I'll take your word you aren't a republican.

But then again, these days who would admit it?

Moore is an American patriot. Limbaugh is a drug addicted, pedophile gasbag.

[lob1]

12. A troll. He hasn't even bothered to defended himself. Fuck 'em.

[Athens30603]

16. ys I did. Geez. Sorry. The Internet is faster than me. n/t

[Athens30603]

35. Well, thanks.

[Ichingcarpenter]

13. Fer Real? well, that's just amazing

they didn't call you something else too

[Athens30603]

20. Thanks loads.

[nycmjkfan]

17. I'm not a big fan

but I do love the way the right get their panties in a bunch over him.

[Athens30603]

28. Oh, I like that aspect, too, but

he's made so many mistakes he's very easy to dismiss and that's frustrating.

[devilgrrl]

34. and which "mistakes" are you speaking of? Do cite examples if you will.

:popcorn:

[baby_mouse]

76. ... and YOU...

[devilgrrl]

80. I don't know of any mistruths... do you?

:popcorn:

[KitchenWitch]

90. Wow, are you part of the tag-team?

[devilgrrl]

94. Oh, I know. Talk about third man in!

[nycmjkfan]

51. Apparently not so easy

since he is still making documentaries and making the right have nightmares.

[TransitJohn]

18. Funny how Moore's films

are entirely vetted, and never once has there been a lawsuit. Hmmmmmmmm.

[Athens30603]

Not entirely true

he's been sued but unsuccessfully.

[jrockford]

171. You can sue anyone. That doesn't mean anything...

The unsuccessful part, however, does.

[last1standing]

19. So you want the insults to be one sided. Sounds republican to me.

I'm always amazed when people want to call someone a "liar and a scare-monger" or "one of his mesmerized drones" or even "a sham and a fraud" but then cry like a whiny little brat when they're called on it or insulted in turn.

Your post sounds very republican and not at all progressive.

[Athens30603]

23. I was venting.

and venting tends to be one-sided. Please see the rest of DU for examples. Geez.

[last1standing]

26. Awww poor, poor you.

You've come to the wrong place to smear Michael Moore with your garbage "venting". Everything you've posted in this thread could come straight out of freerepublic (and has).

[Athens30603]

38. I've never even read "Free Republic"

Everyone here at DU vents on things. Thought I could too. Sorry.

[last1standing]

44. The difference is, unlike you, we dont' smear and lie about good progressives.

So no, you can't come in here and spout off with right wing propaganda and expect us to think of you as anything but a troll. So you can stop with the "poor little put-upon me" routine. This is a board for Democrats, not repubs in sheep's clothing.

[Athens30603]

60. Gotta love this

Here I am, a lifelong Democratic voter,still high on life after Obama's victory and I get called a right winger.
thanks.

[last1standing]

63. So high that you had to come in and start smearing progressives.

Interesting way to celebrate.

[Athens30603]

74. Not a smear. A vent.

[last1standing]

82. You called Michael Moore a liar, sham, fraud and limbaugh-like. Those are smears.

Maybe those of your ilk don't understand the concept.

[Athens30603]

85. It was bad, emotional choice of words.

quickly typed and not thought out. I apologize. Oh holy fucking Christ I apologize.

[last1standing]

89. You should have done that a long time ago before trying to continue the smears.

But late is better than never, so if you stop with the insults, I'll stop with the rebuttals.

[Athens30603]

93. OK, truce. I swear I do have a point here...

But, hell almighty, DU moves waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy too fast for me. No way I can type, respond, etc to all the stuff here as soon as people would like.

[last1standing]

95. No truce. You were wrong. End of discussion. n/t

[Athens30603]

105. Yes, entirely, entirely...

and I am currently not posting because I'm applying leeches to drain the bad blood from my body. I swear I will never again offend the orthodoxy.

[last1standing]

108. More self pity, I see, and another smear of DUers in the bargain. Nice.

You're the one who insulted a good progressive and compared him to a smear monger like limbaugh. You're the one who can't back up your accusations without the aid of other liars. So you go apply those leeches and see if they'll remove the part of your soul that needs to spread lies about someone who's done more good for this country than you could ever dream of.

[dems_rightnow]

138. LOL

Never upset the orthodoxy.

[Athens30603]

142. Lesson learned. n/t

[devilgrrl]

21. I think your OP is a sham, a fraud and does progressive politics a disservice.

:hi:

[Athens30603]

25. If you say so. n/t

[devilgrrl]

31. I do say so and judging from everyone else's reaction, so do they.

:hi:

[Athens30603]

40. eh, no matter. n/t

[fishwax]

24. "Rush Limbaugh of the left"?

That's pure BS.

[calmblueocean]

27. Moore and Limbaugh are very different. You can dislike Moore's films w/o equating the two.

Listen to Limbaugh for years like I have. Moore is one-sided, even manipulative, but Rush is beyond that. He's a flat-out liar, a man who works to fill his listeners with hate and resentment based on lies. Just this week he's been telling his listeners that Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers are currently "silent advisors" to Barack Obama, for instance. Rush lies nearly with every breath. If you can't tell the difference between Moore and Limbaugh you aren't much of a progressive, frankly.

One more thing, on edit: You also have to take quantity into account at some point. Limbaugh does a 3 hour show every weekday, and it's rebroadcast on the weekend. He puts out more lies and hate in one week than the running length of Michael Moore's entire oeuvre. And Rush has been doing it for decades. Those folks you've seen in the YouTube videos at Palin rallies, screaming terrorist and communist and socialist, waving stuffed monkeys at the camera? Those are Limbaugh listeners. Those are his folks. Moore's movies do not inspire that kind of corrosive hate, no matter what you think of them.

[Athens30603]

176. Very good point

"Limbaugh does a 3 hour show every weekday, and it's rebroadcast on the weekend. He puts out more lies and hate in one week than the running length of Michael Moore's entire oeuvre. And Rush has been doing it for decades."

That's a very good point I had not thought of. Very good.

[Iggo]

36. I wouldn't call you a "republican" for that.

:hi:

[raouldukelives]

39. I don't know that I have ever seen an unbiased documentary

[Athens30603]

46. They're hard to find and

because there is necessary editing (for length) involved they will reveal, always, SOME bias but real documentary film makers (i.e the Maysles, Errol Morris, etc) let the facts tell the story rather than manipulating facts in order to tell a story they've already written.

[raouldukelives]

207. So he has manipulated the facts in his movies?

I wasn't aware of that from what I have seen. I'd be willing to bet that you could find people who find the other directors films you've mentioned biased in some way.

[Sewsojm]

41. I love Michael Moore

You sound like a republiCon maybe that's why you got called one!

[graywarrior]

42. A sham, huh?

Interesting opinion.

[devilgrrl]

45. And the OP can't cite specific examples!

Interesting indeed!

[Athens30603]

49. Um, devil girl, I'm typing them up. Hold on a second, K?

[last1standing]

52. We've all seen the lies that pass for Moore's "deceptions".

You're game just won't wash here.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[last1standing]

62. Here, I've saved him the trouble (note the source).

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/breck/michaelmoorelies.guest.html

You think it'll look similar to that? :rofl:

[graywarrior]

54. I love when they can't back it up

Makes me want to read more.

[Ichingcarpenter]

67. beacuse

is so thoughtful isn't it?

[graywarrior]

75. Moves me to take action and write nasty letters to everyone I admire

[Ichingcarpenter]

78. Well sometimes

spellcheck does too ....... just beacuse

[graywarrior]

96. I'm spelling it that was from now on

Like kcik.

[Athens30603]

70. I'm typing. Please wait.

[devilgrrl]

106. Well? Are you ever going to finish?

:popcorn:

[kristopher]

47. What is a documentary film maker to you?

First, let me say that your manner of criticism takes so much from the Republican propaganda machine that it isn't a surprise you were labeled. Here is an arbitrary example:
A man steals an apple, he is a thief.
A man loots the treasury of a prosperous country causing hundreds of millions to live for decades in poverty, he is a thief.

In spite of the fact they are both thieves, to consider these two people the same is a false equivalency.

Unlike you, I consider the practice of documentary film-making to be varied enough to allow poetic license when dealing with complex social issues. If I'm a chemist documenting an experimental protocol, that would be taboo; but if I'm trying to portray the effect of religious opposition to needle exchange programs and thee consequent higher incidence HIV; then I might not portray each individual instance in the film within it's exact context. And just because I knew before I started filming that such religious opposition existed and that it resulted in higher rates of disease transmission certainly doesn't mean I'm "biased" like Rush Limpballs. It means I have an important social fact that people need to be made aware of and film is a better medium than a research paper.

You might want to reconsider the role of such film-making and what how it must be different from academic research.

[Athens30603]

56. Yes, it's different

But tracing religious opposition to needle exchange doesn't necessarily have to follow a strict time line. Moore utilizes cause/effect timelines all the time but he manipulates them so much it really bothers me.

[calmblueocean]

109. This is well-said.

A man steals an apple, he is a thief.
A man loots the treasury of a prosperous country causing hundreds of millions to live for decades in poverty, he is a thief.

In spite of the fact they are both thieves, to consider these two people the same is a false equivalency.

This is going in my permanent arrow-quiver of arguments.

[Mojorabbit]

48. I have no strong feelings about him one way or another

though something about his demeanor rubs me the wrong way. That being said, I loved Sicko.

[malaise]

53. I love and respect Michael Moore

He did more to expose Bushco earlier than most people.

[roody]

58. To back up your "sham" and "fraud" you cite one example: Auto World.

That's it? One timeline error? Just say you don't like him because you don't like him. I don't like the way he hems and haws and says "ummm," and "you know." I love his movies.

[liberalmuse]

64. Well...

it's kind of like saying you don't like the Kennedy's. I adore the man. I think he has done wonderful things for our side.

[Sebastian Doyle]

69. There's only two groups of people who don't like Michael Moore

Republicans and DLC'ers.

Oh sorry, that's only one group. Never mind.....

[Athens30603]

79. and people like me who

think he is not a real documentarian.

[Dr Fate]

99. Except documentaries- "real" or otherwise are a booming business thanks to Moore.

They are more popular than ever since he revitalized the genre...

I don't know what your standards for good advocacy film making is- but F-9/11 was entertaining and informative- and more factual than almost any information being given to us by the mainstream media of the day...

[jonnyblitz]

73. I disagree with you on Michael Moore but then I am not a big fan

of Keith Olbermann and that is a big no no here at DU. and I am (((((hardly)))) a republican.

[Athens30603]

86. I don't mind Olberman.

he reminds me of Cronkite a lot of times.

[Sebastian Doyle]

84. What this thread needs....... Is some MICHAEL MOORE

One of my favorites: Mike vs the Fred Phelps KKKlan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABH_RFeeGAs

[Dr Fate]

88. It's not fair to call you a Republican for that opinion- but I disagree with you as well.

Moore almost always gets it right, Rush almost always gets it wrong. Big difference there for starters...

We might agree that he has an ego and is great at self-promotion.

[LSK]

92. well to be fair, wasnt Roger and Me his 1st movie???

Care to cite examples in Bowling for Columbine or F911 or Sicko???????

[Athens30603]

102. I never saw F911 or Sicko but

Bowling For Columbine manipulates all the NRA meeting footage. He also somehow places blame-by-implication on Dave Clark, implies that the KKK and NRA are related somehow, claims Canadians all leave their houses unlocked (which my Canadian friends had a hearty chuckle over), etc.

[last1standing]

116. You haven't seen the movies but you feel you are qualified to call him a liar.

Republicans do that all the time. Hmm.... :eyes:

[Athens30603]

129. Oh, I dunno...

I've seen Roger & Me, Bowling For Columbine, every episode of TV Nation and even Canadian Bacon.

[cushla_machree]

133. Re: I never saw F911 or Sicko but

Bowling For Columbine manipulates all the NRA meeting footage


Bowling for Columbine wasn't my favorite movie, but it did draw out some questions that I had never thought about, and was interesting nonetheless.

Your criticizing Moore, yet you have failed to watch F-9-11 OR Sicko? Bowling can be easy to dislike if you don't like what he is implying....but Sicko was a magnificent piece of work. I also have never heard of anything being found in the those movies to be a fraud or lies. Maybe you should watch them before you malign a great progressive voice. You don't have to agree with someone 100% of the time.

Bowling is a little hard to watch, for me anyway...because the NRA is going to do what the NRA is going to do, regardless of how many school shootings occur. I don't hink that their meeting in Denver was on purpose to offend people. But i don't agree with their goals, and our society in this country in relation to guns is different than say, canada. Michel Moore tried to show reasons he thought things were the way they were...documentaries aren't all the same...the best ones tell stories.

[Athens30603]

140. I will get around to them

But I've seen a LOT of Moore's work. Bowling For Columbine was the final thing that really turned me off of him, though.

Yes, the best docs tell stories. But I think the stories should be able to speak for themselves.

[cushla_machree]

152. Guns are a touchy subject

I like Moore and i wasn't a fan of that movie. I enjoyed it though, it had some funny moments.

[Athens30603]

164. I know, right?

I thought the KKK/NRA cartoon was pretty funny even though flawed.

[PennyP]

98. Sure Moore is propaganda. So only the right can have propaganda? Ok, then we lose....

the culture wars.

MM has done more to bring awareness of progressive issues to your average non-political schmuck than anything else dems have distributed thus far. Usually we waste all our time just preaching to the choir, but MM takes it to the people (You know, those people who usually see nothing but right wing propaganda and who have been taught that liberalism is a bad word?)

In a perfect world there would be no propaganda, but in our world, MM has done more to help spread progressive ideas than 100 democratic blogs (Which tend to only be regularly read by the already converted).

[last1standing]

101. Welcome PennyP.

:hi:

[PennyP]

114. Thanks *waves* n/t

[Athens30603]

103. uh oh, you said "culture war"

Welcome to DU but beware of touchstones like "culture war". You'll get ripped up in here using right wing terms like that. ;)J/K!

[last1standing]

111. Insulting DUers again. Interesting. n/t

[Athens30603]

122. I was joking. geez. n/t

[PennyP]

113. I can take a ripping. The fact is, we may not see it in those terms but they do...

They ARE at war, we ignore their rage and passion at our own risk.

They feel we control the culture, (which we don't) and they want to control the culture (and by control, I meant TOTAL, from our bedroom activities on up).

[Athens30603]

118. Oh, I agree with you

But I've seen other people get ripped here for using the term. But, yes, it's a culture war in the most basic sense: a fight for our culture of progressive, open government or their culture of hidden agendas, war, anti gay, anti-woman, anti-minority politics.

[earth mom]

104. If the shoe fits.

Anyone who doesn't see the heroic efforts Michael Moore has made in spite of disgusting smears by so called dems like you, is a freeper in my book.

And just what the fuck has Moore lied or scared people about? :wtf:

If you want to talk lies and scare mongering look NO further than Limbaugh, O'Lielly, Faux News & the entire * administration. They are the masters of lies & fear. :puke:

[Athens30603]

107. A lifelong Dem (me) is the same as a Freeper to you? Ok...

[earth mom]

110. Yep, I calls em as I sees em, & I've seen a lot of em exactly like you through the years here on DU.

:puke:

[lob1]

112. I was on my way out when I posted upthread that you were a troll.

I'm back now and see that you did respond. If you're not a troll, I'm sorry, but your doing as much damage as a troll. This week is the biggest week in democratic history for years. We finally beat the crooks, and how do we celebrate? Endless threads of "I hate Rachel Maddow" this week. We have two voices on TV that speak for us, and for some reason we attack one of those voices. Why in the fuck would we do that? I suspect it's right wing attempts to split us again, because they got nothin' else. Then you come in knocking Mike Moore for no reason. Why? He's one of the 3 voices that speak unashamedly for the left. Why undermine your own side? And while we're at it, name one lie in any of his movies. One lie. I can find a lie in minutes of listening to Limpballs. So why aren't you attacking Rush? Why not Hannity? Why not Colter? Listen to any of them for a minute and you can find a baldfaced lie. So why go after Moore? What has he done worse that those on the right?

So maybe you're not a troll, just misguided. Whatever. But if you are a dem, don't you see you're shooting yourself? And you're shooting the rest of us, too.

[Athens30603]

121. Moore hasn't done anything worse than those guys

I don't mean to undermine our side. I didn't think i was doing that. I could go on for days attacking Rush, Hannity, Coulter, Malkin, etc. (I don't know who Rachel Maddow is, sorry.)
I shouldn't have ever posted this thread. I was just venting about something that happened.
(A lie for you: the entire premise of Roger & Me is that Roger Smith refused to meet with Moore. In fact, Smith met with Moore three times during the filming.)

Sorry to have done any damage. I'm ELATED at our success this week.

[Ichingcarpenter]

132. "Moore hasn't done anything worse than those guys"

Now you really dug yourself a hole which you will never get out of.


You know all of the work of Limpberg Hannity and O'really but have admitted not to even watched
Michael Moore's collected works or know who Rachel Maddow is.

But then you do admit that you like Keith Olbermann but don't know who Rachel Maddow is.
Something really stinks here with all of your statements, I think we have seen who is really
the dishonest fraud here.

[Athens30603]

137. What?

I've seen tons of Moore stuff. Why the hell do I have to know who this Rachel Maddow person is to have an opinion? Who said I knew the "collected works" of Rush, etc?
What's wrong with liking Olberman?

Sorry, I'm not a media addict. I can't memorize everything every conservative or progressive writes/says/does every day.

[lib2DaBone]

115. Why is everyone down on Michael Moore?

.. It seems to me.. (he) Michael Moore is the only one that is out there trying to get health care benefits and a decent paying job for worker bees. How bad can that be? Shame on you Michael.. shame.. shame... No good jobs for Americans.. off to China with your good job.


As far as I can see.. Michael Moore was correct... Corporate America are a bunch a thieving self-serve scum bags that are ripping off the American people. Why all the backlash?

[Athens30603]

124. Read the thread. I was the only one down on him. n/t

[AlCzervik]

120. so? Bfd, really.

[Athens30603]

123. Exactly. This entire thread was a mistake. n/t

[AlCzervik]

126. my own sil called me a communist, seriously, i just laughed at her.

[Athens30603]

128. I'm gonna have to start taking that road. n/t

[AlCzervik]

130. you really have to for your own sanity, she's been giving me endless shit for 8 years

calling with all the rw talking points and when i laugh i notice it enrages her even more so you bet i laugh.

[Athens30603]

131. You don't eventually get worn out , though? n/t

[Ichingcarpenter]

134. I think we have witnessed here who does "sham and a fraud "

and its not Michael Moore

[Athens30603]

135. forget it.

[baby_mouse]

154. Oh, get over yourself.

And out of my sight.

[Ichingcarpenter]

177. Baby_mouse is no worse than Hannity and Rush

Sorry, I meant to say 'Michael Moore is no worse than Hannity and Rush'

That's what the OP just said.

[AlCzervik]

143. oh i get sick of it but i decided that instead of letting her get to me i just got to

the point where i realized that she's an ignorant and stupid person and she adds nothing to my life, so laughing or being really super nice was the way to go, she calls me a lot less now btw and her own brother lit into her and told her to learn how to behave herself or don't ever plan on coming out her for a visit ever again. I was blown away by him saying that, i guess he'd just had enough.

[Athens30603]

146. Sounds like you handled it well.

Good luck with all this in the future. It's hard. Good job keeping the humor alive in your heart, though.

[LaPera]

136. And what have you done to expose republican bullshit & corruption besides pointing your finger at

someone who took the republican heat and shit thrown at Moore when NO ONE else would utter a word against the fascist BushCo after 9-11....

There's always people ready to trash someone like Michael Moore that have NOTHING to offer of themselves but jealousy & hate....they are a dime a dozen, even here on DU which is quite obvious...

Michael Moore has exposed republican corruption, lies, smears, cheating, character assassinations and disgusting acts of greed...

Not to mention Moore is an excellent film maker, award winning and a huge contributor to liberal causes as well....and he doesn't have to, his films have made him a wealth man, it's because he's a progressive who cares!!

Until you can make a case besides how you personally dislike him or quote from some DVD or can articulate yourself instead of republican talking points than shut up about a true American progressive patriot as Moore is.

I'm just tired of these attacks on Michael Moore, an easy target and more bullshit from the same assholes who have done nothing themselves to help progressive causes or listening to republicans trying to make Moore out to be something he's not for their own disgusting greedy selfish agenda & ideology....

And the idiot sheep continue to follow these republican lying pigs!

[Athens30603]

139. ??

"from assholes who have done nothing to help progressive causes".

Wow. So should I really post my progressive resume here? Come on.

[LaPera]

141. Yeah, show us all the millions you've given and what you've exposed, you asked now fucking do it!

[Athens30603]

144. Oh, sorry, I've never donated millions of dollars to anyone/anything

I guess I better go do that.

[LaPera]

149. You come off like a self obsessed, jealous rat who has nothing to really offer

but desperately needs to be noticed & validated that he has so much, more than anyone else including Moore, in so much the reason he must points fingers at others, such easy targets!

[Athens30603]

153. Thank you.

Your points have been taken under consideration and will be discussed at the next meeting.

[LaPera]

172. You're quite welcome, you invite all that's thrown at you, it would be impolite not to accept it

[Athens30603]

173. Oh, agreed.

I've now got a storehouse of invective. Winter won't be so cold this year.

[LaPera]

179. Still, you have yet to give us your massive list of your great deeds you speak of.

On edit: omitted the word "often"

[Athens30603]

181. I spoke of it once. To you. When you asked.

and I never said it was a 'massive list". I said it was a resume. Which it is. Which, I assume, all of us have. and , no, I'm not going to post my experience in progressive politics here. All you'll do is tear it down.

[baby_mouse]

161. What you are doing, and it is ALL you are doing...

... is hurling worthless insults.

[Athens30603]

163. Baby Mouse...

Thanks. :hi:

[baby_mouse]

182. No probs, dude.

:)

[LaPera]

186. Way to go dude!!

[galaxy21]

147. There are a lot of people on the left that take exception to some of his methods

And I think there are legitimate reasons to critcise certain things he does (editing, misrepresting certain things). Certainly, no democrat expressing mild reluctance about some of his methods should be told to 'shut the fuck up'. Its vulgar.


I tend to have mixed feelings on Moore myself. He doesn't claim to be unbiased, and he has came out with some amazing work. But he has been known for his dodgy editing skiils ( he wasn't entirely fair to the CEO in Roger and Me, and the whole 'open an account and get a gun' in BFC was a farce)
I don't agree with propaganda, even if I agree with the cause.

[AlCzervik]

150. i like his stuff, i always figure there's some hyperbole and far overreaching but

his docs are always interesting, i thought the last one about health care was especially good.

[Athens30603]

155. It's on my "to see" list. n/t

[galaxy21]

162. Sicko was good because Moore took a step back from it and didn't make himself the subject

He just let people tell their stories, and it worked.

[AlCzervik]

166. i cried during some of it, it was moving.

[Athens30603]

168. I plan to see it. n/t

[Athens30603]

151. Pretty much my feelings exactly.

I was a bit too passionate in my OP and really shouldn't have used explosive words like I did. But, yeah, you hit the nail on the head.

[LaPera]

165. Great and now who is perfection...who has done everything right , always correct that meets

your argument, has never made a mistake, nor ever stepped over the line and given his own ideological narrative?

"Propaganda", right an easy label to throw in place of having an inadequate rebuttal or any accurate articulation, because it's subjective at best, from the eye of the beholder of obvious dubiousness.

(Yes, indeed I live for vulgarity)!!!

[galaxy21]

175. Moore isn't the only documentary filmmaker to do it, but since he's the most high profile he's

going to get more attention.

As for the propaganda...Moore is a guy with an agenda. He admits it himself. So, anything he does is aimed at convincing the audience of his arguement. There's nothing wrong that. But if you want the 100% truth, his movies probably aren't for you. I think Moore tells mostly the truth in his movies, but he ruins it by throwing in hyperbole and overreaction at every corner.

[Athens30603]

180. Agreed. n/t

[LaPera]

188. And you agree, Michael Moore's heart & intentions are not in the right place?

[galaxy21]

197. Its not really a question of whether Moore has good intentions, obviously he does

But its a question of how he portrays his arguements. And whether he's always honest. And the general consesus with critics (of all political affiliations) is that he's not.

The worst thing I can see about Moore, is that I'm naturally distrustful regarding his work now. I overwhelmingly agree with his viewpoints but his work turns me off. When I found out the bank/gun skit from Bowling was a scam, it was like 'well what else is he being dishonest about?'

[Athens30603]

199. My sentiments exactly! n/t

[LaPera]

204. To dismiss Moore is doing a great disservice to liberals & exactly what republicans are overjoyed to

see occur.

The republicans try very hard to do what you say & do....they try very hard to create this image and you indeed make them very happy....I hope you are extremely proud & pleased.

We need Michael Moore and the like, as republicans continue to trash, smear, distort & lie about any who surface exposing truths in any medium and/or media form.

The subject and awareness is far more important to the tens of millions who are ignorant to the republican goings on than some embellishments and artistic license...that I see and you want to dismiss entirely.

Well fuck that dude....Moore is necessary, makes people laugh, is clever and a consistent excellent documentary filmmaker as million and critics alike agree....

Your philosophy & agenda 9of course you'll repeat you have no agenda, but indeed you have) and the whatever who started this thread is that you would rather people NOT see his work no matter how important.

Shame on you both!

[galaxy21]

205. You sound ridiculous. No one can dare say a bad word about Moore because we're giving the right

ammunitaion? What happened to being allowed an opinion? Just this idea that because the republicans hate Moore we have to blindly worship him is silly. His cause is just but his methods are questionable, and there's no use denying it.

"The subject and awareness is far more important to the tens of millions who are ignorant to the republican goings on than some embellishments and artistic license...that I see and you want to dismiss entirely."

'embellishments' 'Artistic license?' You mean dishonesty?

I understand Moore wants to enlighten people. I do too. But exaggerating and overeaching can do the our cause more harm than good. It can put people off. Moore has become so well known for distortions and hyperbole it takes away from his work. So, the real message gets lost because people think Moore is a hack who is willing to do whatever it takes (even mislead the viewer) to get what he wants.

I also can't believe you're trying to justify lying to people. That's never okay. That's what republicans do.

[20score]

184. Ditto. I admire him and he's taking heat for minutia and BS.

[LaPera]

195. Thanks....You got it!

[Bluenorthwest]

156. You are both wrong and a jerk

You know nothing of film. And I bet you are a Republican, as well as a hack and a shill.

[galaxy21]

159. Anyone that criticises Moore is a republican?

I'm sorry that's bullshit. There are plenty of democrats that have been critical of him.

[Athens30603]

160. Thank you

Consider your points taken under advisement.

[baby_mouse]

167. Also OP has strange shaped teeth and is a Nazi sympathiser.

And likes the wrong kind of breakfast cereal and nudges people when they're writing.

And walks funny. And doesn't understand Urdu.

Or something.

[Athens30603]

169. Damn. Outed! :)) n/t

[PatGund]

174. I liked his last two.....

But otherwise I loathe him utterly. He's one of two "progressives" I'd like to shove a bowling ball down their throat.

Note to Mr. Moore - There are progressive and liberals who are also proud and responsible gun owners. Bite me.

[Athens30603]

183. :) n/t

[Orsino]

178. He's a showman, but not a fraud.

The criminals he exposes--more than almost anyone else does--are frauds, and jealous of his showmanship.

You might argue that his net effect on progressivism is negative, but you'd need some actual data. Feel free to dislike him, though, whatever reasons you may have.

[Jim Sagle]

185. Moore's OK by me. No one is 100% accurate but you'd be hard pressed to find too many mistakes in

his work. Please enlighten us otherwise if you can,

[DeltaLitProf]

187. Let's have your list of offenses by Michael Moore, then

Can you list any examples of Michael Moore trading on racism or sexism? Can you list some knowing deceptions on Michael's part? Can you show us examples of Moore exaggerating a problem or understating a problem that is real? Can you list some examples of Moore calling an opponent a nasty name? Can you list any examples of Moore indulging in drugs and then using his connections to power to avoid prosecution? Can you list any examples of Moore lying in order to get us into a ruinous, bankrupting war?

If not, admit it. Admit you're talking out your rear orifice. Then maybe you'd not be so quickly dismissed as a troll.

[roody]

190. Have you ever met him?

[Athens30603]

193. Actually, yes.

Three different times over the past decade. Here in Athens, GA. I asked him specifically about his movies and he told me that they were more like "editorials" than real documentaries. That's fine, i guess, but he certainly never shies away from accepting awards in the "documentary" category.

He's a pleasant enough fellow to be around but severely flawed IMHO.

[Individualist]

200. We already know DLC detests Michael Moore.

[smiley_glad_hands]

201. Michael Moore is cultural hero of the left. He is no Rush.

To say that he is like Rush says more about you than him.

Good luck.

[galaxy21]

202. If fairness. he/she did explain that he meant the Rush comparision in terms of exaggerating things

and scaring the base. I don't think he meant Moore was as much of an asshole as Rush. Just that they used the same methods of rallying their bases.


If he meant that Moore was a bad person like Rush, then that was unfair. Like I said, I think Moore is a good guy and his heart is in the right place, but I really question some of the methods he uses in his films. And I don't think there's anything wrong with democrats questioning it.

[Athens30603]

203. Yes, that's pretty much EXACTLY what I meant

I apologize for my use of language in my OP. Again, I was just venting and shouldn't have really said it that way.

[Name removed]

208. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lectrobyte]

209. What lies and scares are you thinking of? What shams and frauds?

If you are going to stand there and moo, give us a little milk.

[Athens30603]

211. Read further up the thread. n/t

[MellowDem]

210. I dislike a lot of his methodology as well

I don't like propaganda being aimed at me. It insults my intelligence. Not all of Moore's movies are horribly misrepresentative, but some are, and some scenes of many are as well. It does hurt our cause and it pisses me off that Moore uses some of Rove's own tactics. I don't want a Rove on the left; it justifies having one on the right if we do so. I don't think Moore is nearly as bad as Rove, but he uses similar methodology at times and that can undermine what he's trying to get across.

[mudesi]

212. Michael Moore speaks truth to power

And you'd do well to recognize that.