Black and Latino voters critical to same-sex marriage ban's success

[JI7]

Source: mercury news

The Rev. Amos Brown might have foreseen Proposition 8's victory. As Brown preached Sunday to his congregation that they should be mindful of everyone's civil rights when they voted on same-sex marriage this week, a church member tried to wrestle away the microphone, agitated that the preacher was discussing gay marriage in the black church.

Gloria Nieto had a sense of those demographic forces, too. When Nieto, a lead organizer for the No on Proposition 8 campaign in San Jose, wanted to distribute campaign signs in Spanish and Vietnamese this fall, she had to get them made herself because the statewide campaign only had signs in English.

"To be honest with you, we were kind of fearing that a great outcome for Obama would mean a defeat on Proposition 8, but we found out that African-American people, they are very conservative," said the Rev. Nestor Morales, a San Jose pastor who helped organize Bay Area churches to raise money for Yes on 8 ads in Spanish. "We found a lot of Democrats voting for Obama and voting yes for Proposition 8. Even Latinos, a lot of Latinos that voted for Obama, they also voted yes on Proposition 8."

Nieto, who is Latina, faulted the No on 8 campaign for not working hard enough to build ties to minority voters.

"The LGBT community has not done a good job of having relations with people outside of a white middle-class group," said Nieto. Among the leadership of the No on 8 campaign, "I could not find any evidence of any African-Americans or Latinos that were on the steering group. Even if it was one or two, that's not good representation."

Read more: http://www.mercurynews.com/elections/ci_10909847

---

i think this article gives good examples of why Prop 8 passed and a few things the NO on 8 campaign could have done to prevent it. it also shows there were many in the black and latino community including church members and NAACP who opposed it and even they thought the turnout for Obama would help defeat the proposition but they were wrong.

the proposition was close enough that a higher turnout in the bay area(turnout there was low) combined with reaching out to minority would have helped defeat it.

also, aren't many of these mormons who pushed this racist and would try to pass a bill outlawing interracial marriage if they could ?

this is really a good article and i think it's worth reading the whole thing.

[SemperEadem]

1. From what I've read, No on prop 8 didn't get across to minorities

well enough that this issue wasn't about gay rights--it was about determining that one segment of the population didn't deserve equal rights, access and protections under the law by another segment of the population based upon a facet of their being--no different from skin color or country of origin.

The false argument that "gays and lesbians don't bother with anyone outside of their middle class lives, so I'm not going to bother to care about them..." is non sequitur. One struggle is no less painful or hard than another struggle when it comes to equal access under the law. Either all are created equal under the constitution in this country or no one is.

They needed to couch it to narrow minded African Americans in terms of the Dred Scott decision and what would have happened if one segment of the population decided that blacks didn't deserve freedom because they were only 3/5ths of a human being and were considered property--and that held through to this day? Or if the civil rights act failed in the 60's and they couldn't be hired for certain jobs or they had to give up their seat on a bus for one segment of the population or they had to step in the street to let one segment of the population walk by on the sidewalk; or they still had to go get their food from the back door of a restaurant--or couldn't marry outside their race.

They needed to couch it to Latinos in terms of being rounded up in the wee hours of the morning and forced onto buses to be carried across the border into Mexico and let out in the desert to fend for themselves because one segment of the population felt that you can't tell if they're citizens, they probably came here illegally and have no rights, so get rid of them all.

They didn't shut down the pimping of children--which would have been so easy considering the Catholic Church and the Mormon church's past history.

They brought a nerf bat to a gun fight and expected to win.

Obama's win had nothing to do with getting these closed minded assholes to change the way their religion has inculcated them for years to be fine with denying gays and lesbians their right to the legal protection and validation marriage. I hope they can successfully challenge the constitutionality of this proposition and overturn it; otherwise the constitution doesn't mean shit in this country.

[gaspee]

2. Careful

You'll be branded a racist by those who know what you are *really* saying. Yeah, it's our fault. Sheesh. I've had enough of this place. Don't forget, it's GLBT'ers fault for not getting the message out that all people are created equal, according to the US constitution.

:sarcasm:

And as to why I'm not pissed at the mormons or the catholic church? I EXPECTED those cults to vote that way. I didn't expect DEMOCRATS to vote that way. It's called betrayal.

Get ready to be piled on for your response...

[EFerrari]

5. Most of the people who voted for this POS were white closed minded assholes.

What is your suggestion for them? :)

[bliss_eternal]

6. You've always had such a way w/words...

...:applause:

:hi:

[EFerrari]

7. This story is being pushed pretty hard. It looks like we're all supposed to

blame each other and forget about counting the votes or, looking at the vote totals. This is what happened after 2004, remember? :hi:

[bliss_eternal]

14. Of course I remember....

...then again, as minorities, we know the ploys of the powers that be. To get all the minorities fighting over their piece of the pie--takes the attention off of them. ;) Seem to recall "w" pulling the same crap with "immigration."

No one was concerned about it, or even thinking of it until he declared it a national emergency of sorts. All in an effort to get us to stop focusing on all the dirt he was doing behind closed doors. Never seen so many alleged progressive turn on other progressives as during immigration debates (or so I thought at the time)--we've had some doozies since then. lol.

:pals::hug:

[Marrah_G]

10. The common denominator is religion

Preachers, Rabbis and Imams preaching hatred and Bigotry under the lie of love and salvation.

As for the white voters- They are exactly the same bigots filled with ignorance and fear as any other race.

[EFerrari]

12. But my point it, why is there a rash of articles fingering blacks and Latinos

when they didn't have the numbers to pass this prop?

That's a little strange. It's like when we were told Bush won because of "values voters" that no one could find, that Bush improved among Latinos (he didn't) and that the youth vote didn't show up for Kerry (they did).

I think I'm going to follow this for a little while because it looks to me like we're being manipulated before the votes have even been counted. :shrug:

[bliss_eternal]

24. Me too.

...but please keep me posted on what you find. Seriously. Your arguments totally make sense and I believe you are on to something.

Btw, you might be interested in this...
Election night, while watching the returns w/dh the station aired a report from a "yes on 8 rally" in Irvine, California. :grr::mad:
Nothing but caucasian families (yes, they took their kids to that crap) in the room, from what I could see. It was a brief segment, there could have been a few ethnic people or families present, I guess. :shrug:

I'm going to check the station where we viewed it, maybe they still have footage from it.
I'll let you know if they do.

[EFerrari]

25. That's interesting. Let me know what you find.

I'm going to see if I can get someone better than me to do some math.

The thing with scams is they always go for what we care about most to throw us off track. When I heard H8 was passing, I didn't think to look at the vote totals or to ask about early or mail in ballots. I just felt terrible and even, guilty for not doing more. There's plenty of time for that but this window for counting votes closes after a while, so we better check now instead of later.

[Marrah_G]

32. Here is what I think happened

You had a large percentage of black voters who voted against it. Perhaps this is because their churches were highly targeted by LDS monies. But even with the large percentages it doesn't trump the number of white votes against it.

So it appeared at first glance that the large AA turnout helped the fight against gay marriage and of course people are going to have knee jerk reactions to a VERY emotional topic. Also I think many GBLT feel that if anyone should understand their right to equality it should be the AA voters but instead they see bigotry being preached on Sundays from a pulpit they have no access to.

I think it is a complicated issue that people are desperately seeking to find some reason for.

Boiled down to the lowest common denominator: The Democratic Voters let down a very important part of their party.

[EFerrari]

34. That makes sense to me as a possible scenario.

The thing is, we don't have a good count yet. So, we don't really know how many churchgoing black women voted for this thing, do we? We have an exit poll done by pollsters whose political connections have made them problematic in the past. We don't really know who did what yet.

Before we call black voters "closed minded assholes" maybe we should resolve some of these information deficits.

[bliss_eternal]

39. Great point.

I wonder when these counts will be completed?

It still bugs me that the polls are so narrowly focused. I really wish they would either eliminate them altogether or create some w/different criteria. The ethnicity grouping polls blow.

[Marrah_G]

41. There is also another little bit to add

You had alot of people who voted for the first time and don't pay alot of attention to politics. They go by what their families and preachers are saying. These are people easily swayed due to ignorance.

The problem is....how to reach these people with truth. Since you cannot get into the churches then perhaps it has to a heavy, steady blanket of TV and Radio ads and shows to change people's perception of what gay is. Many think it is about sex so why is marriage necessary. We have to find a way to change that. Maybe it really is about money and with the elections over maybe fund raising can really have a chance to take off.

Here in Mass my kids are growing up knowing that being GBLT is just as natural as growing up straight. My daughter was "out" as a bisexual in school and many of her friends were openly gay and lesbian. We have an openly gay, legally married mayor in my town. Mass is coming around quickly and I think one more generation will see most of the bigotry against them gone. That is my hope anyway.

Sigh- such a hard subject. I am so happy about Obama's win and also so sad over this amendment.

We have to keep pressuring our reps to stand up for our GBLT brother and sisters.

[bliss_eternal]

58. So true.

Kids growing up in right wing homes, are frequently taught that homosexuality is abnormal. Wonder how many of them voted this election...:( They don't know any better, and haven't experienced life on their own yet.

I was fortunate to have a parent that had gay and lesbian friends.
But on the other side, I've seen how it goes when someone doesn't have love and support...

(content edit)

[Marrah_G]

59. wow

so sorry about your cousin. how awful for them. these kids need so much more support then they are ever given.

[bliss_eternal]

62. thank you.

:hug: I was so young, I barely knew him. I'd see him in pics more than anything. No one talked about it then. I found out more as I got older, and figured it all out, then my heart broke for him.

[EFerrari]

81. That's a very good point. Lot of first time voters this round. n/t

[bliss_eternal]

37. That's a sound theory...

...could be quite possible. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

It's very true that it's an emotionally charged issue. I would not deny that there is an issue of homophobia within some black communities (as we discussed a lot during the primaries and the incident w/the so called, "ex gay" preacher). BUT at the same time, there's a problem w/homophobia in any community that has been taught conservative christian views.

Sometimes I get the sense that the powers that be (i.e. govt., media, etc.) play into this issue and heighten it to a fever pitch, frequently making it seem a lot worse and more intense. They kind of "fan the flames" so to speak. During the "ex gay preacher" thing, I could see the media having way too much fun getting all that glbt's upset w/the evangelicals blacks and vice versa. But that's how they sell their product. For them, it's business. :shrug:

But then again, I'm a long term believer of the theory that the powers that be love to keep all the minorities fearful of one another, hating one another and/or fighting with each other. If everyone is divided--guess who gets to stay in power? ;)

[gollygee]

38. It's a "divide and conquer" technique

What do the GLBT community and most minority communities have in common? They vote Dem. I'm sure there are people who would love to see their anger pointed at each other rather than at them.

[bliss_eternal]

44. Totally agree.

But too few people seem to "get that." They seem content to just get mad at their minority brothers and sisters, finger point and play the blame game--which is usually followed by a rousing game of "oppression olympics."

Lots of pissed off people on DU during the Immigration controversies, but I seem to recall it was during a key time in the administration--when they wanted our eyes focused elsewhere (not on "w" and company).

[EFerrari]

76. That' what it feels like to me although I am not Miss Cleo. n/t

[JVS]

79. Because being white means never having to explain why you voted the way you did.

Whereas there seems to be this idea among democrats that blacks and hispanics owe us.

To be fair, the same sense of entitlement rolls out when discussion of log cabin republicans happens.

[EFerrari]

82. Our outrage is gyroscopic.

I don't blame people for being angry and heartsick and bitter. The whole joy of Obama winning has been tainted for a lot of us.

[bliss_eternal]

88. omg--I want that on a shirt...

Being white means never having to explain why you voted the way you did.:thumbsup:

I know I would be stoned or flogged to my death for wearing it, but that is so perfect.
Thank you.
:applause:

[Le Taz Hot]

16. I think what people are saying, including myself,

is that we have to look at ALL factors -- nothing is off the table. Hell, I was bitching about the lack of organization and outreach by the "No on Prop 8" campaign months before the election. Every single element needs to be examined closely if we're going to reverse this piece of offal. The biggest obstacle, of course, is the blasted churches and personally, I don't even know WHERE to begin there being an avowed agnostic myself. The reason people are focusing on African-Americans and Latinos is the shock that these groups -- victims of discrimination themselves -- would vote to discriminate against another group. It's counterintuitive and people are struggling to understand it. For most, including myself, there really is no other agenda. We just don't want to make the same mistakes the next time. And there WILL be a next time.

[JI7]

17. yes, the low turnout in the bay area was another problem

[bliss_eternal]

20. I'm interested in what you said...

I hope it's ok if I ask you about this....Was that a big problem, in your opinion? Was there a lack of outreach by the No on 8 people in your community?

[Le Taz Hot]

56. There was a lack of EVERYTHING

in the "No on 8." One side was WAAAAYYYY over-funded courtesy of the Mormons, KOC and fundie churches. Strangely enough, I think this would have gotten more attention overall had this NOT been a presidential election year. People's attentions were diverted to getting Obama elected. The "Yes" people used the same anti-fill-in-the-blank infrastructure that has been in place since Prohibition. Conversely, the "no" side was disjointed and woefully UNorganized. Finally, of course, I didn't see ANY outreach to minority communities and I live in an EXTREMELY multi-cultural area.

It's essential that we look at ALL elements of the Prop. 8 fight, including the above, as a blueprint so we don't make the same mistakes again.

[EFerrari]

23. Right. And this time, it would be good to not step into the propaganda

before we have vote totals that are reasonably accurate. One of the things that happens right after a dirty election is a narrative is put into place to explain it.

Let's take care of this time before we move on to next time. People are on to minorities and their churches before we know if our votes have been properly counted. Maybe we should slow down a little and check it out.

[Le Taz Hot]

43. And next time, how about not implying racism

when someone brings up the possibility of race/church as being ONE element affecting the passage of Prop. 8. Leaks were immediate re the raw exit numbers for African-Americans and Latinos. And something else I based my SPECULATION on is personal experience. I've lived in a multi-racial environment all my life, including now. I cannot and will not ignore the RAMPANT anti-gay sentiments I've experienced within the African-American and Latino communities and it's something I've never been able to wrap my head around for obvious reasons. I'm not ignoring ANY factors here, including the MILLIONS of Caucasians that voted "yes." But that is exactly my point. We must look at all factors and we obviously have to start with churches, but it would seem to me the population most likely to change their views are the victims of racism and discrimination themselves. There really is nothing sinister going on here.

[bliss_eternal]

67. You just reminded me of an interesting documentary...

(sorry to go a bit o/t)

..for the life of me, I can not recall the name of it--but it examined homophobia w/in the black community--the ways it's displayed, some possible reasons it exists, etc. SO interesting. Lots of discussion on religion's role, slavery, some ideas I hadn't considered.

One of the aspects that made it really interesting (to me at least)was looking at the homo-erotic elements within some of the male hip hop performer's music videos.

I keep checking the channel I viewed it on, in hopes it will re-air. I wanted to buy it, as I thought it could be utilized as an educational tool.

Ok--sorry, please continue with your discussion. :)

[EFerrari]

78. Really? There were "leaks" about those voters? That's interesting..

Where did you hear it?

I'm not asking you to ignore anything, LTH. I want to know what happened and to follow the counting of the ballots because those horrible people were declaring victory before the count was even in. They seem pretty shady to me. We already know they'll do anything -- they did all kinds of ugly dishonest things before the voting.

[SemperEadem]

77. to die, but that's not going to happen.

I'm not blaming gays and lesbians en masse and to suggest that I am or that my post is racist is a typical knee-jerk reaction seen around here when one half reads or reads into what I wrote. What I am saying is that those who charted the strategy to squash this took too much for granted when it came to religious minority/social minority communities until it was too late to mount an effective counter attack that would have put the supporters of this abomination on the mat for good. They also underestimated the lengths that the white xtian power structure will go to to never concede power. Yeah, a lot of whites came out against this because the churches were used as political machines to do so.

The best course of action is now to put forth a measure barring churches from tax exemption if they are part of any kind of political message and to also bar money from out of state churches to be used to influence politics in another state.

[EFerrari]

84. Well, no. It's not a knee jerk reaction. Objecting to homophobia

by blaming another minority community before you have the facts is not useful. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. You aren't entitled to your own facts and attacking me into the bargain is gratuitous.

The fact is, even if every single black and latino voter in CA voted for this POS, insulting those vcters won't induce them to vote with us.

You've got a point about churches. However, I don't think that any strategy that begins somewhere else besides the people is really going to work. Iirc, the ad they ran (too late) comparing H8 to racial discrimination was making inroads in those two communities. But it was much too little and too late.


The out of state stuff is partly illegal and can be a PR nightmare for the financiers. Now we know to look for it and jump all over it.

To tell you the truth, I don't care what the problem is or how many there are. I want to find out exacty what they are and fix them. Enough already. If it's political players using churches, homophobia in the black community, Latinos that vote with their priests, whatEVER, let's find it and fix it. But nothing that starts with attacking another minority community is going to go very well. There has to be a way to talk about this with a measure of respect and with intelligence and with the aim of finding solutions.

[Kickin_Donkey]

3. That's it, scapegoat racial minorities.

The vast majority of the people who voted for Prop 8 are white. That's a fact.

All those huge fundie, evangelical churches that gave out the Yes-on-8 signs where I live in the Central Valley have virtually all-white congregations, not to mention the Mormons. The area where I live has very few blacks -- and boy did I see a lot of Yes signs in front of all these nice Caucasian homes.

No, Obama's election won't solve America's racial problems. Heck, even on DU in the few days after his election, the crypto-racists on a liberal site seek to scapegoat blacks.

African Americans make up less than 10% of the California electorate. They weren't the driving force on that vote. White people were.

Sheez, the racism oozes out of so-called liberals to this day. It's a wonder Obama was elected in this racist country.

[JI7]

9. that's what this article is about , how the mormons and others targeted minority

communities. take the example of giving away free signs in spanish and vietnamese.

while the "NO on 8" did not do enough to get their message out to these people.

the yes on 8 also lied and said Obama supported it.

those of us who opposed this should from the beginning got the message out that Obama opposed it along with Clinton and other big names.

[bliss_eternal]

11. How refreshing....

...this is officially the first thread I've encountered featuring posts that don't lay blame on ethnic minorities.
Thank you, Kickin_Donkey--nice to meet you, btw. :hi:

Quote:
All those huge fundie, evangelical churches that gave out the Yes-on-8 signs where I live in the Central Valley have virtually all-white congregations, not to mention the Mormons. The area where I live has very few blacks -- and boy did I see a lot of Yes signs in front of all these nice Caucasian homes.

I live in a middle class to wealthy area (dh jokes that our neighborhood is the wealthy area's ghetto). Lots of SUV's, sports cars and trucks with yes on 8 stickers--guess the race of the drivers?

[LostinVA]

48. "Something New"

I think of you every time I see it's on TV, and it's been on Lifetime alot lately!

[bliss_eternal]

66. Noooooo....

...not Lifetime. haha--I'm really trying to watch LESS lifetime tv. I (thankfully)somehow managed to avoid the Texas Cheerleader, but got sucked into the epic drama, Confessions of a Go Go Girl.

:hide:

[LostinVA]

74. We have Lifetime AND Lifetime Movie Channel

Haruka is in HEAVEN.

[EFerrari]

4. The problem is, the numbers aren't there to bear out this narrative.

"Exit polls showed that 70 percent of black voters, and a majority of Latino voters, voted yes on Proposition 8, one likely reason why the measure won a slim majority in Los Angeles County, where pre-election polls had suggested it would lose, even though it lost by a huge margin in the Bay Area."

Black and Latino votes don't account for the majority of Yes votes. White votes do. So, who is pushing this? It's weird already. All the stuff about not networking between communities may be very true and / but that doesn't explain the outcome and especially not in L.A. County where most likely black and Latinos vote. :shrug:

[JI7]

13. those white voters are Republicans and didn't vote for Obama

the reason this is being made an issue is because people assumed those who vote Democrat will vote against this. but that is not always the case.

we have and should continue to go after the mormons and other bigots.

but we also need to discuss how they are spreading their message to minority areas and in this case telling them that Obama supported this when it was not true.

it would have been the easiest and most simple message for those who opposed this prop. that Barack Obama was opposed to it.

none of this is about blame but understanding why this happened. and to prevent it in the future.

[bliss_eternal]

18. This is the inherent problem w/polls.

They show us all the boxes they categorize people under, but what do they really tell us...about anyone?

None of the poll results I saw said anything about people's religion or affiliations with churches. Though I have read a couple of newspaper articles that took the time to determine if those they spoke with had any religious affiliations.

From a historic standpoint, look back at slavery (when africans were brought to this country). Slaves weren't allowed to read or write, but the slave owners allowed them to have religion and worship. Why? Slave owners considered africans savages, and they felt that religion helped to keep the slaves in line--obedient, dutiful and fearful. After slavery many black people continued with their religious practices, and generation after generation passed it on.

All of this is just to say, many african americans were given religion by their white slave owners. Religion is a social construct frequently used to dominate and control. It should be used in polls, as I believe it would make the polls more informative.

[EFerrari]

19. Well, it's interesting. H8 got more yes votes from whites than

the total number of votes McToast got there so no, all those people weren't Republicans.

I'm only interested in the "blame" part because it seems to lead away from counting votes and is reminiscent of the fictions that were floated around Ohio in 2004.

The other elements are useful but immediately, we need to mind the votes. They're not in yet and it may be that the count we have isn't right. Now is the time to look at that, not later.

[gollygee]

22. When we had a similar proposal in Michigan, I knew plenty of Dems who

voted for Kerry (or whoever was up then - I think it was Kerry) and voted for the "defense of marriage" proposal. You can't assume all white voters who voted for Obama voted no. White voters who go to certain churches are likely to vote yes on something like that regardless of where their presidential vote goes.

[bliss_eternal]

29. Good point.

There's a Catholics for Choice group, which is more progressive than usual Catholics that denounce abortion as a sin.
From what I know of Catholicism and the church--most will oppose anything to do with (their words, not mine) the gay lifestyle. :eyes: Though, there are some more progressive, liberal parishes here and there that do have (and support) their gay members.

The Episcopal faith tends to be far more liberal on issues of gay marriages, gays in the priesthood, women ministers and priests, etc. I've known people that left the Catholic church for the Episcopal church for some of these reasons.

Some non-denominational Christian churches are more left leaning and embrace all people, and wouldn't get behind anything like prop 8. But I think, those aren't in big numbers.

[gollygee]

8. What percentage of minorities attend church regularly compared to white voters?

I think it's about what churches are telling people, not race.

[slor]

15. I am Black...

and I voted NO.

[bliss_eternal]

21. Thank you for your no vote.

:hi:

[LostinVA]

28. A question for you, Bliss (great seeing you, btw!)

Should I change my sig, or keep it?

[bliss_eternal]

30. What are you doing up at this hour?

:spank:

No way...don't change it. But, you should check in with Chovexani, too. ;)
Good to see you, too! How are you holding up w/this insanity?

[LostinVA]

40. I just mentioned you to Haruka the other day -- she's back on DU btw

She was reinstated last Friday. She's been slugging it out in GD, GDP, and GLBT already!

Ugh. I hate it. It drives me crazy. It took away alot of my happiness at having a DEm in the White House, too.

[bliss_eternal]

60. omg--haruka's back.....?!?!

:loveya::bounce::party::bounce:
That's SO cool! Please give her hugs for me, and tell her to chill. Geez, she just got back...tell her to leave those idiots to their own devices. lol.

[wellst0nev0ter]

26. Probably Canceled Out By My Sister's Vote, I'm Afraid.

She studies at Stanford and still buys into the bullshit against gays. And the worst part she is trying to recruit me to the dark side.

[LostinVA]

27. I wish this would be discussed on here, instead of people shying away from it

Or even calling people racist for bringing it up.

I hate when minorities vote against other minorities. It's like a person of color "Southern Strategy." I also hate people on here trying to excuse it because of religion. That's a copout. Almost every person at MY wedding was a practicing, devout Catholic, including a Catholic priest.

[gollygee]

31. Religion doesn't excuse it

Nothing excuses bigotry. Religion is just likely to be where the bigotry comes from.

[bliss_eternal]

33. How cool you guys found a Catholic priest.

I agree, that it's totally healthy to talk about this stuff. People don't learn if we don't talk. At the same time, I tend to get bent when I see blanket statements being made. Not cool.

I also hate seeing people throwing polls around. Most polls (like the Census) are ass-backward, goofy, outdated modes of grouping people that usually have little to nothing to do with how people vote, think, feel, etc.

[LostinVA]

46. I think it's a very real issue that the GOP takes advantage of

Much like how they turned blue collar Southern whites against their blue collar brothers and sisters of another color.

It's HEALTHY to talk about these things. That's the only way things can be changed. You and I could definitely sit down and talk -- and even argue about ceratin things. As long as you realized I was right. (you know I'm teasing! We would probably agree on everything, anyway.)

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brewman_Jax]

36. Blame the people that caused this

and voted for it--it wasn't minorities.

I hate when minorities vote against minorities, too, esp. when the LGBT's vote against affirmative action, so everyone has a complaint.

[LostinVA]

42. I am blaming those who voted against it -- you just proved my point

[Brewman_Jax]

45. Are you including LDS and the Catholic church

that made this an issue in the first place, and the close-minded white assholes that voted in numbers?

[LostinVA]

47. WTF is your problem?"

If you don't want to talk about this, then don't, but quit trying to act like I'm accusing racial minorities of something I'm not. We expect religious conservative whites to be jerks and vote away rights. We would, however, like to ahve other discrimiated against minorities NOT vote against our rights. This is a needed discussion,a nd one that certain people refuse yto discuss -- as you keep proving.

[Brewman_Jax]

61. Everyone doesn't always vote in everyone's best interests

it's the EXPECTATION that's the problem. Bush* got 2 terms. Considering the fact of the Log Cabin republicans and the black watercarriers on RW news, there are those that don't vote in THEIR own interests, much less the greater whole. Yes, it would be nice to have the oppressed minorities vote in each others' best interests, but it doesn't always happen. What's needed is to have the vast majority to vote for what's right. My point was to put the blame on the people that caused this, not just the symptoms.

BTW, I didn't say that minorities voted in favor of prop 8 because LGBT's voted against affirmative action. That was an example of issues where two groups don't always agree.

[bliss_eternal]

68. no fair argyle...

...to make me laugh this hard, this early.

omg--black water carriers on RW news?!

:rofl:

[Brewman_Jax]

69. OMG! You've seen them, too?

they're kinda off in the distance, like the bigfoot photos. :P

[QC]

51. Good point--no one ever criticizes Mormons and RC's here.

Sometimes I wonder if Democratic Underground is some kind of Mormon/RC fansite or something!

(I bet Skinner wears magic underwear *and* one of those big pointy pope hats!)

[LostinVA]

53. hahahaha -- there was a violenty anti-RC thread in LBN just yesterday

[Brewman_Jax]

63. I wonder the same thing

:silly:

[RedLetterRev]

35. It has been a long-standing Rovian trick

to try to put some wedge-y, hot-button issue to appeal to folks' divisive or baser instincts on a ballot to swing an election toward the right. We on the left will tend to over-analyze and wonder what went wrong (Charlie Brown, Lucy, football) because, well, it's our nature. The up-side is that fewer people fall for it each time.

This time, thank Whatever, we managed to get the POTUS right, but the wedge issue still passed. The RW got it half-right and we got it half-wrong. Their scorched-earth tactics aren't really working any more (again, thank Whatever), but we've still got a load of education to do. There's nut-talk on the right of militias and there are ugly emails flying around; the usual lame-brained bigmouths are still on the airwaves, whipping up what's left of the nutfringe base; StormFront and Freakrepublic are up for grabs. On it goes. We've won a battle, but the greater war of ideas is still ahead of us.

I believe the other posters on this thread are right -- looking amongst ourselves for blame probably isn't the best place. I place the blame firmly on the right for once again trying to rig an election with obscene amounts of money and obscene ideas designed to appeal to peoples' lesser notions, couched in language designed to hide the real impact on real human lives.

As for Prop 8, let's keep our heads together and fix the damage. From what I understand, it isn't a totally done-deal YET. Education is the enemy of the right -- once you get a mind to think on its own, it'll never vote repuke again.

:grouphug:

[bliss_eternal]

50. What a great post...

...and thank you for making me laugh aloud w/the Charlie Brown, Lucy, football thing! Really cracked me up.

Really astute observations, and I appreciate your sharing.

I wonder why more people don't see how they pit us (as progressives/democrats) against each other.

[LostinVA]

55. It drives me crazy that people don't, and instead just start pointing fingers

IT NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSED. Poeple need to realize it's the GOP's new vesrion of their "Southern Startegy." Divide and conquer.

[QC]

57. The Republicans have been talking for years about how they can use The Evil Homos

to peel black and Latino support away from the Democrats. Years. People act like this is all something very new, or like anyone who brings up the subject is a closet Klansman or something.

[RedLetterRev]

65. Thanks! I sees what I sees

and have too often been accused of saying out loud when the emperor is nekkid. Can't help it. I'm a hillbilly :)

For those who don't want to put up with Salon's day-pass, I'll go ahead a put out the salient paragraphs, right from the horse's (ass's) mouth:

But they sure did know how to play the game.

Consider one memo highlighted in a Capitol Hill hearing Wednesday that Scanlon, a former aide to Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, sent the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana to describe his strategy for protecting the tribe's gambling business. In plain terms, Scanlon confessed the source code of recent Republican electoral victories: target religious conservatives, distract everyone else, and then railroad through complex initiatives.

"The wackos get their information through the Christian right, Christian radio, mail, the internet and telephone trees," Scanlon wrote in the memo, which was read into the public record at a hearing of the Senate Indian Affairs Committee. "Simply put, we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something and make sure the rest of the public lets the whole thing slip past them." The brilliance of this strategy was twofold: Not only would most voters not know about an initiative to protect Coushatta gambling revenues, but religious "wackos" could be tricked into supporting gambling at the Coushatta casino even as they thought they were opposing it.

Emphasis mine.

The point is, they do it to us all the time, have been doing it for years. We're catching on slowly -- slowly. It's frustrating, especially when it's your (or in this case, my and folks like me) turn to be the boogeyman.

And whilst I'm ranting, I'd love to put one RW term to bed and never use it again: "values voter". They are nothing of the sort. They are wedge-issue voters. It is neither a sense of duty, nor patriotism, nor civic pride that stirs them off their dead arses to vote. Only the sheer, demonic glee of taking something they don't appreciate away from someone they don't know bestirs them. Those are people who will trespass into your back yard to steal the sheets of your line and the wood off the side of your shed to burn a cross in the yard of someone they don't know and beat them with a Bible they don't read.

That's not "values". That's just evil.

:rant:

[EFerrari]

80. Exactly. And if the rightwingery can get us as upset as possible

with their storyline, maybe they can declare victory before the votes are even in and it's a done deal. Remember, this is the same media that lies to us every day and we have no trouble seeing it then. They didn't undergo a transformation overnight!

In CA, election boards have 28 days to count ballots received on Election Day and there are other kinds of votes still to be counted. Please let's keep our heads while we see to it that gets done. :grouphug:

[QC]

49. Shhhh!!! You're not supposed to talk about this!!!

Just politely avert your gaze and say something nice.

[LostinVA]

52. Look upthread

I was basically told this is okay because gays voted against affirmative action (wtf?), and I'm apparently kinda racist, because I think it should be discussed.

It's one reason why the Donnie McClurkin thing angered me so -- the GOP LOVES to try to woo socially conservative Blacks by waving the "Sinful Gay" specter. E. Lynn Harris wrote a great essay on this a few years ago in the "Advocate."

[QC]

54. Like I said, politely avert your gaze and change the subject.

That's how we deal with homophobia around here.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

71. You are correct. And the homophobia needs to be discussed.

[The Backlash Cometh]

70. This is going to be an uphill battle.

There has been a lack of communication with these two groups which have affected health issues. Take HIV, for example. It has spread more in these two groups than any other for the lack of information. Let me ask you, how are you going to raise the consciousness of these voters regarding gay rights, without first showing an interest on their health issues?

Maybe there's a way to address both issues, at the same time?

[nichomachus]

72. The vote for Prop Hate most closely tracked religion

The more someone went to church, the more likely they were to be fed a steady dose of lies and fear and to vote in favor of Prop Hate.

So, let's lay the blame exactly where it belongs -- on the so-called "religious leaders" who whipped up their followers into a frenzy of hate and fear and did it with lies.

The churchgoers were victimized by the people they trusted and in turn victimized gays and lesbians.

[lies and propaganda]

73. it is TRUE. might be ugly, but the numbers dont lie

Black people in Cali voted 70 fucking percent for 8 to pass... SEVENTY PERCENT.

That is immoral, sick, sad, disgusting and reeks of not remembering the last 400 years of their lives.

it really, REALLY fucking sucks to get shit on by people who have been shit on for ages.. they should know better.

[Evoman]

75. Minorities are a red herring. This is a religion issue. It's what the YES votes have in common.

Bullshit religious values.

[IndianaJones]

83. anyone know how Asian Americans voted on this? nt.

[EFerrari]

85. Yes, they voted like white voters. 49/ 51 or so. n/t

[IndianaJones]

86. I'm supremely disappointed in that. nt.

[EFerrari]

87. I know.

Myself, I'm more disappointed that the NO on H8 people have conceded before our votes are counted. I don't know their stressors but, I wish to dog they had just waited for the process to play out. We would have sent a signal of tenacity and we could have learned more finely what happened.

But, I have no idea what they considered, either. :(