The government now wants to assess *college learning* through standardized tests!

[ecstatic]

What shoulda student learn in college? And whatever that is, which colleges teach it most effectively? With the average cost of private college soaring—and with studies consistently showing American students falling behind their peers internationally—it's a question being asked more and more. And it's one that colleges are at a loss to fully answer. "Every college tries to do what it says in the brochures: 'to help students reach their full potential,'" says Derek Bok, former Harvard president and the author of Our Underachieving Colleges. But, he says, "most schools don't know what that means. Nor do they know who is failing to achieve that full potential."

...

Not surprisingly, colleges abhor the idea of government-imposed testing, insisting that they are reforming themselves and that government oversight is not the answer in any case. A one-size-fits-all solution is grossly impractical, they argue, given the variety of American colleges, and it undermines the prized independence of the institutions, widely regarded as among the finest in the world. "No one wants standardized No Child Left Behind-style testing in colleges—not parents, not students, not colleges," says David Ward, president of the American Council of Education. Adds Lloyd Thacker, author of College Unranked: Ending the College Admissions Frenzy, "The danger is that the soul of education will be crushed in the rush to quantify the unquantifiable."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070304/12college.htm

Three things...

Let me just say, I think this is a HORRIBLE, elitist idea. Point blank--a person will get out of college what s/he puts into it. What happens when the schools that don't perform as well are closed? Then the disadvantaged student will not have a way into college. What does that mean? That that disadvantaged person is now doomed to a life of menial wages (unless of course s/he somehow starts a successful business)?

When it comes to standardized tests, some people just "have it" and some people don't. I've always done exceptionally well on standardized tests, but I've always been a lazy student. I know people who do horribly on standardized tests, but work hard to excel at whatever they do. At the university I attended, the average SAT score was pretty high. So of course, when the government tests that particular student population, it will appear as if the school has done it's job. Yet, that won't be the case---it's just you have a bunch of people who are great at taking standardized tests.

Thirdly, if a person graduates college but is still a 'dumbass,' guess what? THEY WON'T BE HIRED!! So there is absolutely no need for the government to start tinkering around and cause college to become something that only the priviledged and well connected can get into. Don't get me wrong, there should definitely be standards and curriculum. However, it should be left up to a student to transfer schools if necessary, in order to get the quality of education s/he is seeking. I guess what I am getting at here is that college is not necessarily a place where people go to learn. Some people just want to get their degrees so that they can get paid! People like that seek higher knowledge by reading books, of their own choosing, and should not be forced to use college for that purpose.

Should the government attempt to measure the quality of education given at institutions of higher learning?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. Silly idiots. Shows that none of them

including the "president" paid any attention in college.

The purpose of college is to produce people who can make judgments BASED on their education, not put out a bunch of people who all think and feel the same way.

Amazing.

[MADem]

2. Yeah, we've seen how great (*cough*) it's worked out in public schools...

Teachers stressed, spending all their time teaching to a test, no funding for the programs, requiring already poor districts to fund the testing, the 'dumb' kids being kicked out of school so they don't ruin the scores...real "compassionate."

How absurd.

[Nikki Stone1]

5. Maybe that is the point

A study in England a number of years ago showed that standardized testing actually reduced student motivation. Nonetheless, the testing remains in place, even as the public schools get worse and the kids get less and less motivated. Standardized testing is ruining the public schools. But maybe that is the goal.

[Buzz Clik]

3. Can you imagine the questions on the test if THIS admin drafted it?

TRUE or FALSE

1. Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church.

2. Arsenic is naturally-occurring. Therefore, it is good for you and adds zest to drinking water.

3. Global warming is a hoax.

4. Democracy is the form of government that all Middle Eastern countries desire.

5. Ignorance excuses everything.

[MADem]

6. Multiple Choice: Who are the three greatest Presidents in history?

1. Reagan, Bush 41 and Bush 43.

2. Bush 41, Bush 43, and Reagan.

3. Bush 43, Bush 41, And Reagan.

4. All of the Above

[Nikki Stone1]

7. You're on to the real reasons for this suggestion to have standardized tests in college

It's about controlling the college curriculum and reigning in professors to toe a facist party line.

[Buzz Clik]

10. No shit. David Horowitz is the tip of this dull spear.

[ecstatic]

9. How scary. Some of my best/favorite courses had subjective material

Those are usually the best courses offered in college, and there are no right or wrong answers provided you include valid explanations.

[Buzz Clik]

14. Exactly. Another poster on this thread mentioned this:

A significant portion of a university education is learning to think. Yes, we are given facts to learn, but that is not enough by itself.

[B3Nut]

35. You can't rule a man who thinks for himself. n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

This is just a way to get control of college curricula

Standardized testing acts as a way of homogenizing education by setting uniform standards. This is not necessarily bad provided that the tested areas are common to all students: basic math and English, let's say. It's also not bad if actual educators are setting the standards.

The problem is that the tests are developed by private companies, often with political ties. This means that what is tested is not necessarily related to what is being learned or what should be learned, but it is related to a political agenda.

Standardized testing of universities is a right wing wet dream. Imagine David Horowitz having a say into what gets tested and what doesn't!

[Buzz Clik]

8. Well, if these assholes were paying any attention...

... they'd know that tests exist already. Have they not heard of the Graduate Record Exams? Anyone in the business of recruiting graduate students doesn't need the government helping us evaluate the curricula of various institutions.

In addition, there are many mechanisms for establishing accreditation for curricula -- engineering and chemistry come to mind.

Bottom line: this is more bullshit being pushed by a group that should have paid attention in school.

[Nikki Stone1]

11. The GRE is allegedly an aptitude test, but it would do the trick

Is ETS lobbying for the contract to administer standardized tests in colleges?

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Yes that is what I was thinking too

We already do this.

[NoFederales]

17. Correct! Government control (destruction) of education has been proceeding

apace at the elementary and secondary levels for quite some time. Mind, there is nothing wrong with assessment, but this is all about propagandizing curriculas and diminishing who can get an education.

I have fought this intrusion by government for most of my career and what I fear the most--extremist fringe crackpot elements that are revisionist in nature, and anti-intellectual in the entire scope and sequence of educational curriculums--has gained inertia: extremist anti-intellectual and growing governmental intrusion.

I don't know where we as a nation are headed with so many polarized factions having gained poitical and economic power. Being smart has always had its elements of derision and distrust from "ordinary" types, but real problem solving of the adult variety in matters of social, political, and economic were left up to smart people. Being marginalized and dismissed by the dumbest kids in class hurts--has Idiocracy truly arrived?

NoFederales

[sutz12]

4. I had to vote no....

I think that there could be more consistant standards in higher education, but this looks like a way to get Creationism accredited at real universities.

edited for clarification.

[rman]

12. Other: No, let the States decide

[NJCher]

13. typical Republican approach

I'll bet if you trace the origins of this idea, you'll find it put out by some republican. They love that black and white approach--or at least until they're the ones being judged. Then they want to get gray about it.

Anyway, your post makes many good points, as do many of the other posts on this thread. There should be a variety of approaches because there is no single learning style.

WannaJumpMyScooter's statement above: "The purpose of college is to produce people who can make judgments BASED on their education, not put out a bunch of people who all think and feel the same way..." is what republicans don't understand about education.

BuzzClick, your questions were hilarious!



Cher

[ecstatic]

15. I learned a lot through this thread. Initially I viewed the issue through the eyes of a

recent college student/graduate who had to go to college for survival reasons. I never even thought about the brain-washing aspect/potential that this idea presents.

[sutz12]

22. Education is the lighting of a fire...

Not the filling of a bucket.

I don't know the source for that quote, but I've always loved it.

The RW goal is training, not education.

[melody]

16. Oh, you awful liberal anti-free market people

"No, the government should stay out of it. Let the free market decide (15 votes, 94%)"

:sarcasm:

[live love laugh]

18. The government does not pay for college education like elementary education

They have no business interfering with what private citizens pay for.

[Goblinmonger]

36. What about land grant schools?

The taxpayers of Wisconsin pay money toward the UW system just like they do to the secondary and elementary schools. Why shouldn't the public universities have to share the load of the bullshit that the lower grades get to?

[live love laugh]

38. If you think public universities should be tested, so be it--but if all aren't tested

because the rest pay for their own education, I don't see the logic for it.

[Canuckistanian]

19. Even if you're willing to consider the idea.....

Do you trust THIS government to implement it?

[HereSince1628]

20. Assessment has become an industry and that industry is looking for products to sell

Standardized tests are perfect. They have high profit margins and a large market place.

By arguing that federal support for college tuition warrants federal oversight the stage is set.

I can't see this NOT happening. I've been expecting it since the phoney college accreditation industry turned assessment into a profit making industry.


BTW, US employers deserve to know that potential American employees who are expected to pay for their own training have actually been trained and will indeed demand fair salaries to make a fair return on educational investment so that businesses can rationalize the need to off-shore their jobs before the potential American employees can actually get those jobs.

[notadmblnd]

21. I think it is just another way of limiting access to knowledge

The powers that be want us all dumb and stupid. If the ability to think for ourselves is eliminated, then we have no option other than to follow the rest of the herd.

[Cerridwen]

23. Once upon a time, long, long ago...

people wanted to learn or extend their knowledge and college was the last "bastion" left of "higher learning." It had little to do with "market forces."

So, I choose, Other - keep the gov't/business out of the colleges (and schools in general, I'm starting to think) and let people learn! If industry or corporations need trained cogs, let them provide it and quit using our school systems to create their freaking cogs!

This whole idea that education is supposed to provide workers for corporations is anathema to what I learned was the purpose of education. Time to get them the hell out.

edit: added "business" to "gov't"

[treestar]

24. Typical black and white thinking

Each college has its own requirements and traditions. Each student can pick their courses. There is no way to standardize that.

Idiots and morans.

[lolly]

25. Sovietization of America

I had a professor one time from a former Communist Bloc country--either Bulgaria or Romania?

In order to graduate from college and to attend graduate school, she had to pass an examination on some sort of "Socialist Principles" thing--in other words, she had to prove that she knew the Party Line and would stick to it in any classes she taught.

I don't doubt at all that this is ultimately what's in the works here.

[MedleyMisty]

26. I think that the current government should definitely stay out of it

But "let the market decide" is code for social Darwinism and unregulated capitalism and misery and pain and death, and in this context would mean that only people who could pay totally out of their own pocket for college would be able to go - and the cost would probably be more jacked up than it is now.

So I voted other.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Maybe I don't understand but this is already done, isn't it?

I had to take a competency exam to get a teaching certificate. Doctors have to take exams to be licensed and so do lawyers. Is this not a common practice for professionals?

[Jonathan50]

29. Thinking and progress

"Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run, these are the only people who count."

-Robert A Heinlein


"Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded- here and there, now and then- are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.This is known as "bad luck."."

-Robert A Heinlein

[Odin2005]

30. I'll bet David Horowitz is behind this BS.

The Anti-Intellectual Right (with has strong overlap with the Religious Right) and the Corporatist Right will do anything to destroy academic freedom. They hate what Austrian philosopher Karl Popper called "the open society," a society based on the free flow of information and the freedom to criticize "accepted wisdom". Horowitz's BS is all about silencing intellectuals that question political accepted wisdom.

[gravity]

31. Higher learning is the one thing that the US excels at

Don't mess with success.

Also college isn't all about what you learn. It is a signal to employers that the employee is willing to work hard enough to graduate.

[BlooInBloo]

33. roflmao!!! Good one!

[genie_weenie]

32. This is a great idea.

The purpose of education is to make citizens ready to follow the beck and call of the Glorious Leadership. When the damn liburl Dewey proposed changing education back at the end of the 19th century he caused almost as much damage as the commie-hippe (CHs) have caused with all there crap they have been shoving into the ears of Americans since the 1960s.

This is what needs to be taught:

1) Our leaders are filled with a special substance which enables them to know what is best for Us.
2) America was founded by the Right (not left) Hand of the deity, which means we should all pray in school and be *proper* god-teachings.
3) Americas military is to be used to gently keep all the lesser un defied peoples of the world in order through humane violence at times and by the sight of our He-Mans trodding the ground in which we allow them to live.
4) The World's resources really do belong to us, since we are the smartest, strongest and godliest.
5) There never was a bad war, America has fought in, or a good peace, not chosen by America.
6) The flag is permeated with the soulstuff and special substances of our leaders, to desecrate it is to desecrate Heroes, Demi-Gods, and the Deity.
7) Every underclass person should be at all times willing to open up to our leaders about all there finances, medical records, criminal tendencies, un-righteous thoughts and especially, sexual mores.
8) Things which are good for our leaders are good for us.
9) Things which hamper control of the fates of others (lesser non-A-Mericans) is bad for us.
10) America is always Right.

Take ye these 10 Commandos and teach them at all the halls of learning that ye shall forever be good and holy

[BearSquirrel2]

34. Yes ... so long as ...

I'd say yes so long as they start with the University of Phoenix Online. Then they can follow up with booting all their chronies out of their jobs for having cracker jack certificates from private mail order diploma mills.

[earth mom]

37. The rethug fundies hate liberal education don't ya know?!

They will do ANYTHING to kill it off, control the message and to stifle critical thinking!

GODDAMN THEM ALL TO HELL! :grr: :grr: :grr:

[windy252]

39. Other

I can understand the need for loans from the government and things like that, but it appears to me that the goal is to get rid of critical thinking. Critical thinking is what's causing a bunch of the right's problems currently, since it sometimes requires questioning what is considered "common sense" by society or religious and you find out it isn't really very sensible at all.