My husband's 17yrd old nephew called me for advice last night - I'm torn

[MANative]

He's a high school junior and an outstanding athlete, and is being recruited heavily - last count was 38 schools, many of them Division 1, and at least one Ivy League. Out of the blue late last week, he gets a phone call from the Head Coach of his sport at the frickin' Naval Academy. He's been invited there for a weekend visit with his parents - attending a game, seeing a flyover, VIP dinner - the whole 9 yards. He's excited as all hell, and understandably flattered at all the attention. He's already visited at least one D1 school, which he really loved, and is scheduled to visit another on Monday. All of these schools are pushing him for a commitment by the end of November.

He called me because we are close and do speak often about all kinds of things, but particularly because I grew up in a military household. Some of you may remember that my Dad was in the USArmy for 27 years, and is still involved as a retiree. He wanted to know the real deal about what it means to go to a military academy and what he would be committing to if he accepts their offer. I was really direct with him about what it meant to be in the military, and how his life would change. I also told him that he needed to make the decision based on what was right for him, and not what his dad wanted for him. (His dad is an aircraft nut, and is having huge vicarious fun about this.)I also told him that I was a little concerned about whether his personality was well suited to the service - he's one of the free-est spirits you'll ever find, and that's not really encouraged in that environment. He agreed that he was concerned about that too. I didn't discourage him, and I did tell him that some of the most exciting and rewarding experiences of his life could and would come in service of his country. But I didn't exactly jump up and down cheerleading the whole thing either.

I don't want to push him in one direction or another, but I also know that he's not someone who's ever performed well in a tightly structured environment. Did I approach this right?

[Wickerman]

1. Sounds like you did right

He contacted you because he respects your opinion and he also has to know that you would raise some cautions that others might not have.

[Bitter_Clinger]

2. From what I understand...

The Naval Academy does not recruit athletes as they have to meet the rigid qualifications to even be admitted. The sports teams at the Service Academies are usually formed from the cadets already there. The Service Academies turn down thousands of applicants a year for the few hundred openings they have. No one goes to the academy because they are a good athlete.

As to how he would manage there, if he already is a good athlete, especially a football player, he is already used to some discipline and structure so it is not a big change. Also the Military has been molding men for hundreds of years so it is not like they do not have any experience with strong willed and maybe even undisciplined men already.

[Lyric]

5. The point is not that the military would have trouble "molding" him.

The point is that it's not necessarily a good thing to BE "molded."

(My use of scare-quotes here indicates that what you consider to be molding, I consider to be brainwashing.)

As for the recruitment thing, I have no idea if you're right or not, but it seems logical that an outstanding athlete would also be the physical type that the military is always looking for.

[MANative]

7. I can tell you for sure that they do recruit athletes.

My extended family has been tightly involved with 3 of the 4 service branches for more than 60 years. He would still need to meet the enrollment requirements, but they are most definitely recruiting him without there having been any previous application or approach by my nephew. The Head Coach saw my nephew play in 2 tournaments over the last 18 months, and made direct contact. I personally know at least one other person who went that route, and is now a SEAL.

[Bitter_Clinger]

10. I stand corrected then...

I knew they recruited into the regular ranks as many Army boxers have been on the US Olympic teams and I participated in their World Class Athlete Program when I was in. I did not think that the Academies did. I am pretty sure that they do not relax the admitance standards, though.

[CoffeeCat]

9. I'd like to point out that what the military...

...may consider "strong willed" and "undisciplined" may be creative genius, tenacity, and entrepreneurial spirit.

It's not always a good thing when those things pounded out of a person.

[Bitter_Clinger]

18. Several of Generations of my family

have served. The "molding" is not changing who you are, but in using the best of who you are within the confines of a team or unit structure. The US Military, unlike their counterparts from other countries, prides itself on instilling in their troops a willingness to take initiative. They in fact, try to nuture qualities like creative genius, tenacity and entrepenural spirit.

Undiciplined genius is usually a loss, focused genius, which is what the military tries to instill, brings about many great things. But that is just me and my way of looking at things.

[CoffeeCat]

28. I understand what you are saying...

...and I appreciate your perspective. I imagine that it is wonderful having that tradition in your family that spans so many
generations.

It sounds like you (and members of your family) have greatly benefited from the military--and that the military has helped you realize
your potential.

I think many people can benefit from the structure and regiment of the military. However, many people whither under that structure.

This is kind of an extreme example, but can you imagine Jim Carrey doing well in the military?

I would not have flourished in the military. I don't consider myself undisciplined. I just hate structure, and I do my best work when
I'm given as much freedom as possible. I get bored with structure and regiment. If I had to line up and stand at attention, I'd have
this undying urge to tap dance.

Trust me, you don't want me anywhere near a boot camp!

[Bitter_Clinger]

38. "can you imagine Jim Carrey doing well in the military? "

In the Army, Jim Carrey would have been an officer! :) That would have explained a lot of the orders I had to carry out anyway.

[Dorian Gray]

52. That's why their football teams

stink! (In college, our school played both Annapolis and West Point every year, and we almost always beat them.)

[CoffeeCat]

3. He obviously respects your opinion...

If he truly is a free spirit, then it is smart for you to point out that the military is very regimented and make him aware of what it is like. Maybe he likes the idea of the structure and
is ready for that. Then again, maybe he is the type of person who would not do well with that type of structure.

He's young. He really doesn't know. He needs all of the information. I wouldn't hold back your opinion. Your opinion is valid, and could
help him make the best decision.

If you let him know that you support him no matter what he does--you're not demanding that he follow your advice.

I think when someone has valuable insight---they need to put it out there.

If your nephew may not be best suited for the military--it would be better to hear that point of view now--instead of realizing that once he's "signed the papers."

Plus, if he's a free-spirit type--- his gifts and talents would really flourish and be realized in a non-military setting--and it would be sad to lose that potential. Many
people are just not suited for the military--I would say most people aren't.

Just my 2 cents.

[MANative]

11. Thanks for your 2 cents!

One of the things that I pointed out was that his talents could still be used to serve his country in other ways, such as the Peace Corps, or ACLU. He's frequently said that he wants to be a lawyer, and someday, a Democratic Senator from CT.

[leftchick]

4. Let him know how many West Point grads hoping for a Career

ended badly in a middle east country for OIL, LIES and HEGEMONY.


good luck!




20 January 2007 – CPT Brian S. Freeman, 31, (Class of 1999) of Temecula, CA, died on 20 January 2007 in Karbala, Iraq, of wounds suffered when a meeting he was attending came under attack by mortar and small arms fire. Captain Freeman was assigned to the 412th Civil Affairs Battalion, Whitehall, Ohio




21 months ago: SAN DIEGO - FEBRUARY 2: Charlotte Freeman hugs a friend at the funeral of her husband Captain Brian Freeman during a memorial service at Ft. Rosecrans National Cemetery on February 2, 2007 in San Diego, California. Army Captain Freeman, 31, a West Point graduate and star athlete, reportedly told Senators Chris Dodd, (D-CT) and John Kerry (D-MA) over a month ago in Baghdad, that the war was going badly before being killed by gunfire and grenades on January 20 while serving in Iraq. (Photo by Sandy Huffaker/Getty Images) *** Local Caption *** Charlotte Freeman


this is a very sad reality. :(

[Divernan]

13. RIP, Captain Freeman - what a terrible loss for his family & this country.

I noted he was described as "a star athlete."

[leftchick]

44. The US bob sled team

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2007/01/192087_comment.php

Soldier's Family Reacts to His Death

BAKERSFIELD, Calif. -- The family of Army Capt. Brian Freeman is preparing to bury their son but remember him as a quiet and confident young man. Freeman was born in Bakersfield but lived in Temecula with his wife Charlotte and two young children Gunner and Ingrid.

Freeman was killed Saturday in Karbala, Iraq when his Civil Affairs unit was ambushed by Iraqi insurgents disguised as U.S. troops.

Five soldiers were killed in that attack, on a day where 27 U.S. troops lost their lives.

Robert Freeman lives in Bakersfield and has just returned from visiting his son's widow in Temecula. Freeman said his son was a super person and that they're proud of his service to his country. The Freemans received a letter of recommendation from the governor of Karbala commending Brian Freeman for all the work he had done for the Iraqi people and specifically the people of Karbala.

Karbala has been one of the most dangerous cities in Iraq and is a holy city for Shiites. Robert Freeman said, " The world is a little worse off without Brian."

Brian Freeman attended West Point Academy in New York and graduated in 1999. He served as a tank commander before getting involved in the World Class Athletes program where he went to Lake Placid, N.Y., and worked with the U.S. Bobsled and Skeleton teams.



Article from The Californian
by DJ Thursday, Jan. 25, 2007 at 3:58 PM

Military releases details of Temecula soldier's death

By: NICOLE SACK - Staff Writer

TEMECULA ---- An Army reserve captain from Temecula was one of five U.S. soldiers killed when an armed militia group attacked a provincial security meeting Saturday in Karbala, Iraq, Defense Department officials confirmed Tuesday.

Capt. Brian S. Freeman, 31, was among 25 troops killed Saturday around the country in the third deadliest day for U.S. forces since the war began.

On Tuesday, the Department of Defense confirmed Freeman died in Karbala, 50 miles south of Baghdad, from wounds suffered when the area in which he was involved in a security meeting came under attack from mortar and small arms fire.

Freeman was a trained civil affairs officer assigned to the 412th Civil Affairs Battalion, based in Whitehall, Ohio. He leaves behind a wife and two children, ages 3 and 1, who live in Temecula.

Freeman was deployed to Iraq in May 2006 ---- his first tour of duty there, his father, Randy Freeman, said this week. After more than six months there, Freeman returned home for Christmas and headed back to Iraq on Jan. 6, his father added. Family members declined to comment further on Tuesday.

In the Karbala attack, the military said in a written statement that "an illegally armed militia group" attacked the provincial headquarters building with grenades, small arms and "indirect fire," which usually means mortars or rockets. The statement said three soldiers were also wounded repelling the attack.

"A meeting was taking place at the time of the attack to ensure the security of Shiite pilgrims participating in the Ashoura commemorations," said Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks.

Karbala is 50 miles southwest of Baghdad and thousands of Shiite Muslim pilgrims have been flocking to the city for 10 days of festivities commemorating the death of one of the Shiite sect's most sacred saints, Imam Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad.

Freeman began his Army career in 1995 at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y. He graduated in 1999 with a degree in economics and was commissioned as a second lieutenant, according to the U.S. Army Civil Affairs.

He later served as an armored scout platoon leader assigned to Fort Knox, Ky. In 2002, he was accepted into the U.S. Army World Class Athlete Program where he trained with other Olympic hopefuls from the U.S. Bobsled and Skeleton Federation. Freeman left active duty in May 2004 and joined the Inactive Ready Reserve, according to the Army.

Freeman moved to Temecula with his wife, Charlotte, in 2004, where he began work with KB Home as a project manager.

[MANative]

17. I was very direct about the high potential for him

not only not getting any guarantees about what career track he wanted to follow, but that if they needed his boots on the ground with rifle in hand, that's where he'd go. And that the potential for on-going conflict in the Middle East was extraordinarily high, meaning much greater risk of servicemen of all types in great danger. I didn't pull punches on that.

[Jim__]

6. Sounds like you gave him good advice.

Ultimately, the decision is his. It's a tough decision to make at 17.

[MANative]

19. Yes, and that's one of the reasons I'm kind of

ticked off about these schools pushing for a decision within 30 days. He's only in his first semester as a Junior, for cryin' out loud!

[Divernan]

8. I think you gave him a balanced response, and left the door open for him

to discuss it with you further. Do advise him not to be pressured into making a decision and signing on during the weekend visit. My now adult son played a varsity sport (soccer) for Yale. He started out freshman year on the junior varsity team, and then played varsity sophomore and junior years. However, for his senior year, he decided to drop the team and concentrate on his studies, resulting in a summa cum laude degree and full doctoral fellowship offers from multiple top schools. He's always remained a terrific athlete - biking, skiing, kayaking, hiking, snowboarding, scuba diving, ultimate frisbee-ing, etc. And he received an excellent education and has had a very interesting career. The Ivy alumni networks are very powerful, and open many opportunities to their grads.

I don't know what your nephew's sport is, but if he hopes to go pro, he's better off at a Division 1 school. However, he's always just one serious injury away from having that avenue closed off to him. So what's his Plan B? Does he have any thoughts on career directions after the glory days of college games? Nothing sadder than used-to-be-star-athletes, pining for the excitement of their "Friday Night Lights".

On edit: I stand corrected. There is something infinitely sadder - and that is death in a senseless war, as per Captain Freeman.

[MANative]

21. He has no intention of going pro in his sport - he wants to be

a lawyer, and is looking at his athletic skill as a way to fund at least part of his eduction. His top ambition is to be a Senator. For a kid, he's a real policy wonk. And very liberal, under the influence of Auntie MANative. :)

[ColbertWatcher]

12. Without knowing what the other schools are ...

... it will be hard to compare.

He's going to have to consider what would happen if he has a career-ending injury and if the school he picks will be able to fulfill his other interests as well. Not to mention, will the school have enough options for him if (when) he changes his major.

He has to have his scholarly interests met too, not just his flying jones.

[MANative]

24. His primary interest is in the schooling, not the sport.

He's seriously looking at everything through the lens of scholarships and comparing their academic programs. He's already rejected one school because it didn't meet his academic standards. He's as smart as he is physically talented, thank goodness!

[ColbertWatcher]

31. "He's as smart as he is physically talented" Wow, good for him!

But, I guess what I meant was, not so much how rigorous are the academic standards, but how well does the school stack up to what he is interested in? You know: if he's interested in veterinary medicine, do they have a school for that?

That's what I meant.

[MANative]

41. sorry - I misunderstood! He wants to be a lawyer, so

there are numerous opportunities including the legal extension programs out of the Academy. He can also go the USNA, then go to a separate law school, so it doesn't limit him in that way.

[ColbertWatcher]

46. He wants to be a lawyer now!

That might change when he gets exposed to other stuff.

But, then again, it might not. Who knows. My initial point was that the school should be able to accommodate his adventurous mind.

[aikoaiko]

14. If his goal is professional sports than that should take the acedemies off the table

But if sports is a happy means to an end for an education and career, then Annapolis is a good deal.

[JVS]

15. If he wants to go pro, his commitment to the military will harm him.

If he wants to go into a civilian profession, it will also hurt him.

I'd pick the Ivy or another Div 1, depending on whether I wanted to continue playing football.

[MANative]

25. that's my thinking, too.

As I noted upthread, he wants to be a lawyer. He could certainly go that route after the Academy, and get into the JAG corp, but that also means a longer commitment to the Navy. His earning and advancement potential would be limited by that, and I did point all of that out.

[JHB]

35. On the other hand...

...he could go to law school as a civilian after his commitment is up.

Just another possibility to consider.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

40. Going JAG opens up a lot of other possibilities, too.

Short term might be hindered, but he could reap huge rewards long-term, especially if he has any flavor at all for politics (and I'm not necessarily even talking about running for office, although that's possible too).

[freethought]

16. Sounds to me as if you did it right

Quite bluntly, the boy should be honored. A naval academy education ranks up there with the Ivy League. Some fine athletes have come out of Annapolis. Does anyone remember Clarence Robinson?

You did make some fine points. A free spirit may not adapt well to the heavily regimented and structured environs of a military academy. Just tell him to think carefully.

[msongs]

20. naval academy sports teams are traditional losers. why play for losers? nt

[jdlh8894]

32. West Point Grad? eom

[Andy Canuck]

22. Tell him not to go. It is pretty simple.

No soldiers, no war, no grief. You can be respectful to those that choose to go into the military, but if someone actually wans your opinion, give it straight up, what you think and implying what you think. You may save his mental health and more importantly his life.

[MANative]

26. Most teenagers don't react well to being told

what to do, especially if they come to you looking for advice. He respected me enough to ask; I respected him enough to give him my opinion, and trust that he'll listen, learn, and make the decision that's right for him.

[DangerDave921]

23. Yes you did

You counseled without being dictatorial. I believe that one should not try to make decisions for other people, but should try to lay out the pros and cons clearly to assist the person in making his/her own decision. Sounds like you did that.

I greatly respect the military, but also acknowledge it is not for everyone.

[southernyankeebelle]

27. Military Academy

When they first allowed women to go to the Naval Academy my sister was recruited to go for a weekend. She went and she decided it was for her. She ended up going to the University of Maryland and then she went on to dental school. She has her own practice now and very happy she didn't go any of the military academies. I come from a military family also.

[MANative]

37. At the end of my Junior year in HS, I was invited to apply

to West Point, and I decided not to. My dad was a little disappointed, but I told him - and he agreed - that the only way I could ever go into the military was if I entered as a General. :rofl:

[a la izquierda]

29. My .02, FWIW

A friend of mine went to West Point because he had been told he'd be able to play football. He was a good football player in HS and smart as a whip. He wast absolutely not meant for the discipline West Point entailed. He had a miserable, terrible first year there...then he left (I do not know under what circumstances). He never went back to college.

If the rigors of the structured discipline won't work with him, the military is not the place--obviously you realize that and his folks should too.

[deaniac21]

30. It's only a 5 year comittment and you can get a job anywhere

with a degree from the Naval Academy.

[JHB]

33. I was a midshipman at USNA. Left before completion, but it has its merits.

MANative, If you'd like, PM me. I might be able to answer specifics, or to provide some perspective as someone who wasn't a good fit.

[MANative]

39. Thanks - I may PM you after I hear back from him

about his visit, if that's ok with you! I'm sure he'll have lots more insights and questions when he gets back. :hi:

[JHB]

45. Sure thing

A phone call is do-able too, if that would be a smoother way of answering his questions. Just drop me a PM when the time comes, if he wants.

For perspective, I would have been in the Class of '86 if I'd graduated from there. (so it's not ancient history, but long enough for how-your-life-turns-out persective).
:hi:

[klyon]

34. Push the Ivy League school, it will look best on his resume.

If it is Princeton make sure he goes there. It is the best school in the country and the alumni pays. He should try to get the best education possible, sports is not everything.

[Deep13]

36. Telling the truth is always approaching it right. nt

[MANative]

43. No baloney there!

I really tried to give him a balanced picture. I hope I succeeded.

[mgc1961]

42. That's about the right approach.

Military service offers great non-financial reward in terms of travel experience but, it demands a heavy price in terms of extended family relationships and sense of belonging.

Just the observation of a former military kid.

[MANative]

48. Thank you for your perspective.

I know that as a military kid, I learned self-reliance and independence at a level many other kids didn't. I attended 11 different schools by the time I graduated from High School. You make friends fast, but let go of many of them just as quickly. It's nearly impossible to keep track of each other with so much moving around. I'd guess that it wouldn't be as difficult today with email, cell phones and text messages, but it sure was challenging during the days of snail mail! There's only one kid that I met along my travels with Dad that I'm still in touch with, and only because we were both originally from the same city and - out of sheer coincidence - his parents lived about 3 doors away from my husband's parents. Ran into him taking a walk around the block!

[mgc1961]

54. That story will sound familar...

...to many military kids. It was only after Dad got out of the military in '74 that I began to understand the impact of Dad's service on me in relation to kids my age who hadn't been exposed to regular moving and changing schools. My first girlfriend in high school hadn't been outside a 50 miles radius of her birth place when I met her. Like you, I'd lived in 6 states, went sight-seeing in a bunch more, and I didn't attended the same school two consecutive years until I was 16.

A funny line Major Hoolihan (sp?) spoke in the M*A*SH* television series kinda sums up a kid's military life before meeting the rest of the world: "I thought civilians were just soldiers waiting for their uniforms to come back from the cleaners."

:hi:

[MANative]

57. Love that Hoolihan line - I know that the 8 year old me

would have entirely connected with that! Most people don't recognize how much military families give when one of the parents is in service, and what a long-lasting impact it has on your life. We moved so often that I developed what my family calls the "Moving Manifest" (me having learned ultimate organization skills as the daughter of a seriously squared-away Army officer!) which I someday hope to package and market. My parents are in the process of building and moving into a new home (in their 70's, god help us all) and when the movers saw my methodology, they went nuts. "You absolutely need to sell this system to everyone who's ever going to move!" - a direct quote from their manager! LOL

:hi:

[TexasObserver]

47. "When you join the military, your life is no longer your own."

I enjoyed my time in the military, but it's not something I would advise in today's world. After the practices the military used in the Iraq War, such as stop loss, I could never recommend again that someone join the military.

They broke all the tacit agreements that have bound military in the past. They made Airmen in the Air Force become ground troops. They sent totally unprepared soldiers into combat zones. They failed to properly arm many troops.

I used to recommend it on occasion, but not again.

[MANative]

50. Yeah, that whole stop loss thing is one of the key

issues I have with the service today. And your point about Airmen becoming ground troops is something I definitely shared with my nephew. You go where they tell you to go, and do what they tell you to do - "promises" mean nothing when they need boots on the ground. It's not the same service my Dad, FIL, grandfather, 3 uncles, and 2 cousins joined.

I'm not his parent, so I can't stop him. His mother is not thrilled with the idea, but his dad is living the vicarious thrill of the kid being recruited in a big way. Once he turns 18 - next July - the decision is his no matter what else might happen, but I look at my obligation in this as to answer every question I can, try to ensure that the kid does his homework on the ones I can't answer, and pray that he makes the best decision.

[TexasObserver]

59. You might encourage him to watch STOP LOSS.

It's actually a pretty good little film, and gives great insights.

[MANative]

61. Thanks for the heads-up - I wasn't aware of that film. n/t

[Arugula Latte]

49. "Serving your country" is all well and good in the abstract, but when was

the last time the U.S. military was used for good? Bosnia? WWII?

If you join the military it's likely you'll end up forced to serve in an immoral mission which has nothing to do with "serving the country" and everything to do with "furthering fat cat U.S. corporate interests" at the expense of the low-ranking enlistees and the poor brown people who are unfortunate enough to live in the country chosen to be exploited and pillaged.

[MANative]

51. There's no doubt that many of our recent "missions"

have been dubious at best, positively criminal in not a few cases. I'm hopeful that an Obama administration will have a positive impact on how and where our military forces are used. Should another WWII scenario ever arise, we would clearly need a well-trained and robust military to answer the call.

[paparush]

53. I was an RA in college..one of my freshman was on the tennis team.

He was heavily recruited to leave our school and take a scholarship at Annapolis. He had several uncles who'd been in the Navy and always saw the Navy through rose colored glasses. He decided to go, and started his Sophmore year playing tennis for the Naval Academy.

About a month into the new year, I saw this guy back on our campus.

I asked him what he was doing back.

He laid out this tale of how he basically had to escape from Annapolis. He described the indoctrination into "military thinking." He realized he'd made a terrible mistake and went AWOL. He was eventually picked up, interrogated, and after much hazing and guilt-trip-brainwashing he was released.

He was completely traumatized by the experience.

[MANative]

55. Wow - that's actually scary.

Of course, the going AWOL route was probably not the best decision, but I have no doubt that they made it extremely difficult for him to leave of his own accord.

[paparush]

63. Indeed, going AWOL was desperate. Very smart kid. But, he panicked..no doubt.

[MrsBrady]

56. sounds good

i would double check with him about what he's dealing with with his Dad.

My mom was pretty high pressure with me, and now I'm back tracking later in life to do what is good FOR ME.
If he's a "good kid" like I was, it was pretty hard to say no to parental pressure. My Mom meant well, but I didn't have any other support system at the time to say
"hey, you need to do what YOU need to do," instead of pleasing others.
That was my deal, anyway.

Ivy league sounds pretty cool to me. I never had that chance for that.
Looking back people (parents, public school counselors, teachers) sort of just pushed me into "average" when I really had the desire to go far.
I had a cousin who turned down Brown for the University of Virginia because the family didn't want the cost of Ivy league.
I can understand cost, but my God, why turn down the best when they want you?
The kind of job you can usually get with Ivy League would generally offset the cost, I would think, over time.

my 2 cents

[MANative]

58. We definitely had that part of the conversation.

Having known his dad for more than 30 years, I know how "persuasive" he can be. At times, the kid is more mature than his father, so I'm trying to mitigate dad's unbridled enthusiasm with just a little reality, and my nephew seems to be realistic and thoughtful about it.

[ItNerd4life]

60. Wow! Nicely done.

Having similar conversations with my 18 year old. Give them your opinion backed with facts and let them decide. They will respect you for the truth and honesty.
Don't get emotional, just the facts.

[MANative]

62. Thanks - I'll be on pins and needles until I hear

from him next week. Good luck with your teenager! :hi: