FYI for our White Friends: Here's a form of discrimination you probably have no idea exists

[HamdenRice]

I realize it's bad form to start a new thread in response to an existing thread, but I want to make a slightly broader point than is being raised in the existing thread. The existing thread is ejbr's thread "I just went OFF in a Starbucks":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4331784&mesg_id=4331784

The responses in that thread I think reveal the gulf between black and white experience -- no, not a gulf, a grand canyon of difference between our experiences and perceptions.

Like most people who responded to his post, I thought ejbr's reaction was insanely over the top -- until he mentioned down in post 94 that he is African American, and then it made perfect sense.

You see, in addition to not being followed around in stores and not experiencing other forms of day to day racial harassment, you probably have not experienced a particular kind of racial harassment that ejbr was reacting to, one that has been on a drastic increase since Obama became the nominee, since he became the likely winner of the election, and that will undoubtedly increase exponentially when he becomes president. Let's call it the "passive aggressive political commentary."

If you are African American and occasionally are in public places where conversation takes place -- especially places like cafes, bars and restaurants -- you become used to racists suddenly engaging in spirited discussion of social and political issues relating to race within earshot.

It goes something like this: You sit down to have a beer, and the guys at the next stool who were discussing the Yankees suddenly begin discussing "welfare" or OJ Simpson. Whereas the conversation about the Yankees was private, the conversation about welfare is suddenly loud enough for you to hear. In ejbr's case it was a conversation that switched from pick up lines to the problem of all of Obama's supporters being idiots. (Now what do you think is the likelihood that the person ejbr "overheard" knew that ejbr was an Obama supporter because of his skin color? And how would your assumption change if ejbr were a white man?)

Now, if you're white you probably think I (and ejbr) are being paranoid. But, of course, you haven't had the same experience, so you don't have the same perception. And that experience is the frequency with which "private" conversations between white people "just happen" to switch to welfare, African American crime rates, or now Obama (or more specifically the stupidity of all Obama supporters), in our presence and the peculiar way that the volume of those conversations increases in such a way that, what sounded from a certain distance like mumbling background noise when the conversation was about the Yankees becomes almost shouted disquisitions about race matters from the same distance.

But perhaps we are being paranoid. If so, my gosh, it's amazing how often white people discuss racial matters in bars and coffee shops, because we must just be listening in on a "random sample" of their conversational topics! How can we be having a racial divide in this country when white people seem to be discussing racial matters almost all the time?

On the other hand, if our perception is accurately shaped by experience then ejbr's explosion was justified, because, as I said, it's a form of "passive aggressive" behavior; it may be passive, but it's still aggression. Its basic point is: I can insult you by pretending to have a private conversation, and you can't insult me back. It may have seemed like a private conversation, but it wasn't.

And don't tell me to "do what Obama would do." We're not running for the presidency, and we don't have to pretend to like everyone, nor do we have to try to convert anyone to our cause. Our day to day "job" is to defend our own dignity and protect our sanity, which in part is accomplished by not bottling up our rage at when we encounter racists.

And oh yeah, anyone who does this kind of passive aggressive thing isn't going to vote for Obama anyway.

[Marrah_G]

1. I predict this will turn very nasty, very quickly. - n/t

[LostinVA]

22. Me too

Maybe I can mention I'm female and gay, and describe all of the stuff that has happened to me in four decades -- just to cause some uproar in GDP. You know, when we should all be pulling together.

[grannylib]

2. I think I get you...I overhead something similar a couple years ago,

not about an election, but the same kind of thing, in a hospital waiting room. Quiet conversation between a couple of elderly white men, about the weather, farming, etc. - pretty innocuous conversation, no raised voices, etc. Then when a young woman with three kids came in, one VERY sick, and it became clear that she was on medical assistance, the conversation between the two men became much higher in volume, and the topic switched to "welfare queens" and "our tax dollars being wasted" and yes, "socialism" and all that kind of shit.

*sigh* I am really sorry to hear that there is still that kind of bullshit happening in our country, and that so many of our African American brothers and sisters are experiencing this crap.

[HamdenRice]

4. Thanks Granny, that's exactly what I mean

and it wasn't intended to be heard just between those two old guys, so if the mother responds, I think she's justified.

[grannylib]

23. I agree....I wanted to smack them both, but I simmered for a while and

then just walked outside to try to cool down. I didn't want to go off on them myself 'cos I was SO PISSED I was afraid of what I might do.

[Stargazer09]

77. That's happened to me before

I took my three young children with me to the grocery store one evening while my husband was deployed. They were all tired and hungry and cranky, and I was just trying to grab some basics (milk, bread, etc.) at the commissary. My youngest child (at the time) had autism-like symptoms, so public places tended to set him off, especially when he's tired. I had my hands full, but I was keeping everyone under control as well as I could. I normally don't take them out when they are in that condition, but for whatever reason, it was important to go to the store at that time.

This older guy turned to another man nearby and said in a loud voice, "She's got more than she can handle, doesn't she?" Fortunately, the younger guy was polite enough to ignore that asshole, and he actually gave me a half-smile as a way of saying that he understood what was truly happening.

I was shaking with anger by the time I got to the car. I had to try very hard not to get frustrated with my children. Before that jerk said anything, I was being patient and understanding with the kids. After all, I knew they weren't feeling well, and I felt bad for taking them out in public in that condition. After that comment, though, I started to lose my patience, and I kept wishing I had gone off on the guy. He certainly deserved it.

The saddest part is that my husband was deployed. That guy was probably a retiree or a government contractor, and he probably should have realized that deployment causes a lot of added stress on families. Instead, he chose to be a complete passive-aggressive prick.

[Quantess]

179. Crying children get on people's nerves. Some people just can't handle it.

Obviously you can handle crying kids, and that's what matters most, since you are raising them. Forget about that jerk in the store.

[Stargazer09]

197. I know that :)

But they weren't even crying. Just acting up a little bit (climbing in and out of the "truck" attached to the shopping cart, etc.) They weren't making a lot of noise, just moving more than normal. Trying to run free in the store more than anything. The baby was moaning and acting like he wanted to be anywhere but there, with all of the strangle lights, people, and noise. I didn't think they were really bothering anyone, and looking back, I think he would have said something even if all three of the kids were perfect angels that day. He was probably one of those men who either never had children or pretended the ones he did have didn't exist.

Thanks for the support. I'll try to forget about him.

[BamaGirl]

204. There always seems to be a bunch of these

people when I go to the commissary. When I was a young wife, I let them get away with it. Now, I give them a piece of my mind lol. And usually it doesn't have anything to do with my kids since they are much older now. But that kind of thing just ticks me off. I swear, there is something about the commissary that seems to bring out the worst in some people.

[amdezurik]

184. it is meant to be public shaming

and the instigators ASSume their opinions are worth hearing at shouting levels. I have seen relatives do this kind of bullshit, and that is all it really is, just bullshit.

[Dennis Donovan]

3. Recommended.

Thank you for this insight.:thumbsup:

[AllieB]

5. Thank you.

I really think it's going to get ugly as more people like this come out of the closet. I think that they feel empowered right now-that they can display their racism in the context of insulting a presidential candidate.

[princehal]

6. Nice Post

Lot's to think about :)

[seabeyond]

7. i did that the other day. i had a black guy carry out groceries. he read my stickers, we high five

over obama and the we proceeded to discuss obama. every white person that walked by was enveloped in my anger about taking away christianity from liberals and now saying we are not real americans and how they lack character and the dishonesty as they preach to me. lie lie lie

i dont want to feel guilty, and i dont want to stop. they are alkl welcome to come, interupt and tell me where i am wrong.

[Usrename]

99. good for you..

It sounds like you were having a bonding moment with the one who carried your groceries.

:)

That's been happening to folks a lot lately. I love to hear these stories.

[CJCRANE]

8. She didn't do herself any favors

with the way she described it - e.g. her "veins were bulging" etc. It made it seem like a freeper post designed to make Obama supporters look aggressive especially as she put "GO OBAMA" at the end of the post.

Then she started insulting DUers replying to her OP, and said she didn't care what Obama thought. It just seemed erratic and contradictory.

On edit: her later OP was much better.

[ColoradoMagician]

9. Makes sense to me

I have never heard it, but I believe it. The haters are assholes, I figure they will try anything.

When I read ejbr's post, I figured, "well, if the guy needs to spout his opinion, he shouldn't be surprised if he gets a response."

If it was racial, then the guy deserved it even more.

HamdenRice, thanks for opening our eyes to another racial tactic.

[DangerDave921]

10. Kinda paranoid

So you think white people start discussing hot-button issues (and loudly) when black people are around to get the message to that person? Yes, I think you're being paranoid. I've certainly never encountered such a thing.

We all have to be cognizant of racial issues. But they have to be real issues. Inventing new issues to be upset about minimizes the real issues.

[HamdenRice]

12. "I've certainly never encountered such a thing"

Which of course means it doesn't happen right?

Btw, are you African American?

And if you never experienced it, of course it never happened, right?

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DangerDave921]

16. I am not AA

But as a white person, I've never been involved in any discussion when a fellow white person started bringing up racial issues when black people are within earshot. All I can offer is my personal experience on the issue. Does that prove it never happens? Of course not. Maybe it does happen. But I've never seen it.

Am I not supposed to disagree with you? Am I not supposed to offer my personal opinion?

[HamdenRice]

21. The point is that almost by definition you really couldn't know, right?

For example, when I was a kid in the 1960s I was in a bussing program. The first day of school, the white parents nearly rioted and someone had painted a huge sign on a school wall that said, "Ni**ers Go Home!"

If you tell me that as a white person, you've never experienced going to school and having the other parents riot and seen a sign like that, so you doubt it happens, it would sound kind of silly.

Your point seems to be you've never experienced a particular kind of racial discrimination against African Americans. But you're not African American. So I puzzled how your personal experience is relevant data about what does and doesn't happen.

You're perfectly entitled to disagree, but it would be more effective if it were more logical. That's all.

[DangerDave921]

32. a couple thoughts

First, I can't imagine how awful that must have been for you as a child. Please believe I am in no way minimizing the very real issue of racism.

But I must politely disagree that I have no relevant data just because I'm white. The situation you have described involves two groups of people -- the white people doing the talking and the black people doing the listening. Why is it just you who is entitled to offer relevant data on the situation? It is your perception of events that the white people are intentionally bringing up topics. Why can't I offer my perception? And why isn't that relevant?

If you're going to bring up a situation involving two races, but then restrict the discussion to only one of those races, then you're limiting the discussion.

[HamdenRice]

35. I'm assuming you are not racist

The two groups you point out are not the two races. It's African Americans and "racist Whites."

I would assume that because you are on DU you are progressive and not a racist. I also assume you don't hang out in coffee shops and bars with racists.

So exactly how would you have been involved in such a situation? My guess is you haven't, and that's it's basically outside your realm of experience.

Yet you are offering your "non-experience" as relevant data.

[hfojvt]

142. but you don't know that those whites are racist

you assume they are because you think you notice a topic change in the conversation (which of course could never happen by accident or for innocent reasons (so the black guy sitting down makes you think about OJ, that does not mean you are changing the conversation just to annoy somebody else. Maybe sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. Certainly it cannot be strange to talk about the election these days.))

You assume those people are racist, not because you suddenly notice the n-word creeping into a conversation, but because it is two or more white people talking about something that may involve some black people. That does not convince me beyond a reasonable doubt.

But, it's also something that can happen to white people, as Bob Seger sang "Most times, you can't hear them talk, other times you can. Oh the same old cliches - is that a woman or a man? And you always seem outnumbered, you don't dare make a stand."

In fact the earlier line is "Well, you walk into a restaurant, hungry from the road. You can feel the eyes upon you, as you're shaking off the cold. You pretend it doesn't bother you, but you just want to explode."

[dgibby]

151. Well, I'm white and I've seen this happen.

It's infuriating, and I have no problem expressing my distaste for these people.

[DangerDave921]

41. you are right about that!

i.e., I am not a racist and don't hang out with racists. (Well there is my brother who blamed the housing crisis on the "f--king ni--ers" but we all have someone in our family we're emabarassed about).

I really meant no offense to you or your perceptions. I was just discussing it. Perception does not make reality, although it sure seems real to the one doing the perceiving. So I will say I don't know if this phenomena happens or not.

[HamdenRice]

44. It's a teachable moment. I went through the same thing with my gay friends

I simply didn't know what the experience was till I went with them to gay bars and saw the kind of hostility and felt the danger from people on the street, just by going in and coming out (no pun intended) of the place.

It's difficult for all of us to understand realms of experience we don't have.

[Chovexani]

76. White Privilege Benefit #1973187

Being able to call "screenshots or it didn't happen!" when a PoC recounts a tale of racial harassment. Because if it didn't happen to a white person, it didn't happen!

[DangerDave921]

92. I didn't say that

but whatever.

[Chovexani]

103. You didn't have to say it.

http://mmcisaac.faculty.asu.edu/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

Defensiveness when confronted by someone calling out your privilege is not helpful.

And no, I'm not nearly as nice as HamdenRice.

[DangerDave921]

106. OK I'll bite

What privilege?

And second, I never denied that such a thing could happen. I only said I had never experienced it or seen it. Of course it may happen. I was told, however, that my input was irrelevant which I objected to. My input is just as relevant as the person who says he/she HAS seen it.

[hfojvt]

146. you didn't read the link

White people rule the world. We walk around with a huge backpack of privileges that people like Oprah and Tiger Woods just can never have. Plus, unlike noble and considerate non-white people, we always arrogantly assume that our point of view or experiences are correct or relevant.

HamdenRice is certainly correct though, in that you don't have the same experience because of your skin color. The other thing is that you may have experienced it, but either a) not noticed it, or b) not think it was a big deal. In much the same way that many non-Irish think it is perfectly acceptable/innocent to call a police van a paddy wagon.

[Quantess]

180. A similar phenomenon happens when men hear about women being sexual harrassed, date raped, etc.

Since they themselves are nice guys, they can't imagine there are any guys out there who would do such a thing.
Same phenomenon.

[bettyellen]

186. that is so true.. the assholes don't act up in front of any other men, so they have no idea at all.

but they have a hard time accepting that they don;t know.

[crispini]

27. I was shocked the first time African Americans told me that security follows them around in stores.

Just because it's not in your experience doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[HamdenRice]

31. And that doesn't happen "sometimes." It happens 80-90% of the time.

Yet for white people it's as though the phenomenon doesn't exist.

Our experiences and hence perceptions are truly different.

[Two Americas]

148. absolutely

It is the rule, not the exception, yet for those who haven't experienced it, it doesn't exist, and what is more - they vehemently deny that it could exist.

[hfojvt]

149. I find the 80-90% number hard to believe

For one thing, there are too many black people in this town and no store could afford to hire that much security. Also, I will say as a businessman that I watched everybody in my store unless they were somebody I knew and trusted.

However, this white guy often experiences the same thing. Because I ride a bike I wear a backpack. Because I don't want my backpack stolen I wear it into the store. But oooh, I must be a potential thief. Purses are allowed, but backpacks aren't. Same thing with being out at night. Anybody out at night is automatically suspect, even people who work a night/evening shift just like the police.

[DangerDave921]

34. I agree

You are correct. Just because I've never experienced it does not mean that it does not happen. But at the same time, it doesn't prove that it does happen either.

I've never seen a UFO. And I tend to believe there are no UFO's. But of course I may be wrong. We all have to use our own personal experience as a way to navigate the world.

[crispini]

37. You don't believe anything that other people tell you about their experience?

Here's a handy tip:

If you hear, from multiple people, that something is true -- especially if you are acquainted with and trust some of those people, and have no reason to doubt their credibility -- then, guess what, that "something" might actually be true!

Shocking, I know.

HamdenRice is a long time poster here and has plenty of cred with me.

[DangerDave921]

43. Of course it might be true

And I mean no disrespect to HamdenRice.

[Two Americas]

150. the burden

Too often we habitually and reflexively trust what those in authority, or those who are perceived to have more status, or those in the dominant group have to say and are mistrustful and suspicious of each other. We place a higher burden of proof on those with less power, and also on those with less motive to mislead us in most cases. This is so pervasive that it has become an obstacle to political progress.

[Flying Dream Blues]

193. No offense, but continuing to argue the point of whether it does or does not

happen is very disrespectful to HamdenRice in my opinion.

[kwassa]

128. In a way, your perception is part of the problem

you said

You are correct. Just because I've never experienced it does not mean that it does not happen. But at the same time, it doesn't prove that it does happen either.

There is a tendency of all people to dismiss experiences that haven't happened to them. In the case of whites, they tend to dismiss experiences of blacks that they can't possibly have. What I am sensing in your post is that idea, that your personal experience is more valid than those that can actually have the experience.

[Two Americas]

153. great point

One would think that the reaction would be "well since I could not possibly have that experience, I would need to listen and learn before I could form an opinion." This is the connection between racism and an imbalance of power, since people are weakened by routinely and automatically having their experience denied and dismissed.

[Fumesucker]

46. Danger Dave

I'm fish belly white and grew up in the Jim Crow deep South..

I can assure you that what Hamden Rice relates is absolutely true, I've had it happen around me before.

It's funny how growing up around really virulent racism but not being a racist myself has sensitized me to these sorts of things.

There's actually a Bob Seger song that addresses this phenomenon from a strictly white perspective..

Turn the Page.

Well you walk into a restaurant, strung out from the road,
You can feel the eyes upon you as your shaking off the cold
You pretend it doesnt bother you, but you just want to explode.
Most times you cant hear em talk, other times you can.
All the same old cliches, is that woman or a man
You always seem outnumbered, you dont dare make a stand.

[HamdenRice]

50. Wow, thanks! nt

[Fumesucker]

54. I just calls 'em like I sees 'em .. n/t

[MindPilot]

126. Another GMTA moment

I was actually thinking of that very same song as I was reading this thread! If you are old enough to recall the 60's and 70's when you had long hair; and it was also true if you were in the military which in some circles wasn't a very popular thing to be.

[Fumesucker]

221. Yep, being instantly recognizable as "other".

There's a line from another song that says exactly the same thing too.

And the sign says "No long hair freaky people need not apply"
So I put my hair under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine outstanding young man I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said "Imagine that Huh Me working for you"

Signs by the Five Man Electrical Band

[SmokingJacket]

140. Yes -- I lived for a while in a very racist area in the South...

and have been hyper-sensitive to racism ever since.

There *is* plenty of racism in the north, but since it's less socially acceptable here, it's more hidden. Growing up in the north, I just never saw it until I moved South and got some quick lessons on what it looks like.

Now I can see it in people's body language and gestures. It's not paranoia; I'm white.

[Realityhack]

198. Ahhhh......

so THAT is what that song is about.

I thought he was just delusional because nobody would mistake HIM for a woman.

[Fumesucker]

220. It's a high school thing that a lot of people never get over.

Say something to one person loud enough that a second person can't help hearing.

And the song is about something else, but that line is talking about the phenomenon.

[Realityhack]

225. Oh I get the 'loud talking' thing. I just never got the song completely n/t

[Dora]

121. It does happen. It's a tactic of bullies.

I've seen it happen.It's a passive-aggressive tactic. Someone will start talking about hot-button issues within earshot of those whose buttons they want to push. And when the person responds in anger, they instigator proclaims "victim" status.

[NOLALady]

139. I've encountered "such a thing",

many, many times over my lifetime.

[Ignis]

173. Oh, Dave...

Why are you always on the "other" side of these discussions? :shrug:

I'm a fan of Devil's Advocacy, but claiming that HamdenRice "invented" the very real problem of "polite" social prejudice against minorities is really bending over backwards to give racists a pass.

May I suggest you make some African-American friends and speak with them about their own experiences with racism BEFORE you dismiss their concerns out of hand?

[Selatius]

177. Now you have been tombstoned. nt

[Richard Steele]

195. And about time, too. That guy was a thinly-veiled disruptor from day one.

Smarter than most trolls, much more subtle, but
consistently TROLLISH all the same.

[Judi Lynn]

214. Not one moment too soon. Today's going to be a good day, I can tell!

http://www.taylors-shop.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/acatalog/pizza-slice-costume-300c.jpg

[rebel with a cause]

183. I am white and I have encountered such a thing.

I was going to a community college in the early nineties. Going into the student center with a group of fellow students, we sat down at a table next to a table with people already at it. One of these people was a man from my hometown, his daughter went to school with my son, and a real asshole. We had not been there but a few minutes when the group next to us begin speaking in elevated voices and the subject was property value and how it is affected by minorities moving into the neighborhood. The subject was enough to bother me, but then they made it more personal when it became reasons I would not want a Latino moving into my neighborhood. Oh, did I mention that my then husband was Latino, and so were my children.

I noticed that the man that I knew kept looking over at me, to see how I was reacting. We sat there for a minute and then I got up to leave, and the group left with me. The group at the next table began to laugh and high five each other. Yeah, I know how it feels, and today I would not have walked away. Today I would probably start telling my crowd what I knew about the one guy's personal life, and trust me I knew plenty. It would be mean and petty to do so, but I'll bet he wouldn't have been smiling after the first report on how he had mistreated his last wife.

[live love laugh]

189. I agree. I am very attuned to racial issues and this is one that I have not encountered. nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

218. I'm white and I have witnessed it first hand. When in a mixed group...

(I mean politically not necessarily racially) and I've seen it done when African Americans, Asians, gay couples, etc. walk in the place.

I have seen this exact thing happen and it's obvious when you become aware of what is going on. Sometimes it takes a member of an oppressed group to point it out to you.

Once a dear friend (he's gay and the rest of our group didn't know that), immediately said something to the effect that "I don't like this sudden change in topic and I know exactly why you're doing it. So lay off or I'm leaving." The production conversation topic (targeted against some black men who had walked in) was dropped and we went back to whatever we had been talking about before. I don't think the people who initiated the change were even aware they had done it or why, so institutionalized is our bigotry sometimes.

My friend later told me what he had observed and that served as a huge eye opening experience to me. From that day on I recognized it and it happens with frightening frequency. I don't have to be in either the original conversational group or part of the group that enters in later to witness such passive-aggressive preaching. I have observed it as a third party too.

Make no mistake. It happens and when you start to recognize it, it will make you truly sick.

[On the Road]

11. You're Right. I Hadn't Heard of This

and haven't witnessed it in public. I don't doubt you that it exists. And it does put the other poster's experience in a different light.

[Joe Chi Minh]

13. Welfare, eh? Well.... well... There are going to be an awful lot of those imbeciles

on welfare before long, thanks to their choice of president! Perhaps you could raise your voices a little and say, "Going to be an awful lot of people on welfare soon... and not just whites, either."

Maybe you could ask the person following you if they're stalking you. It's difficult to know the practicalities, when you have a sub-human underclass like that.

Personally, I'm inclined to think that Obama's popularity and status are going to be so high, the situation may change radically.

[undergroundpanther]

200. Technically

More whites are on the welfare roles than blacks per capita.

It's the truth.

every bigotry seems to always carry projections in it.

[OneGrassRoot]

14. I haven't read the other thread, but your point is well taken.

PERCEPTION and PERSPECTIVE are everything.

"We're not running for the presidency, and we don't have to pretend to like everyone, nor do we have to try to convert anyone to our cause. Our day to day "job" is to defend our own dignity and protect our sanity, which in part is accomplished by not bottling up our rage at when we encounter racists."

Excellent.

I consider myself empathic (not a good thing, btw...not an easy thing), but I don't presume to KNOW how another feels, especially someone of a different race, nationality, etc. It is, however, something I'm acutely aware of: I always keep in mind that another's perception of things can be vastly different from my own and I try to consider how they might feel about something that I find benign.

It's called respect.

Thank you. K&R

[Waiting For Everyman]

17. You're not paranoid at all, they do that to white people too.

They do it to anyone who isn't "just like them". It goes far beyond race. They're jerks, but THEY think it's cool. Schoolyard bullies in arrested development.

White people who are dressed "poor" get followed around in stores too. That's when I usually decide to try on a whole ton of clothes and leave them a mess in the dressing room, leaving with a smile.

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. :)

That's not to minimize what African Americans go through, just to say you're not alone. They hate everybody.

[LostinVA]

25. Best response yet -- EXCELLENT

[ShortnFiery]

30. Since Newt and Delay, Liberals are the the *scum* of the earth to republican right wingers.

They spew out the word LIBERAL like it's a swear word.

These people need to identify what is truly causing all that pent up hatred and "resolve it."

The EVIL in this world has little to nothing to do with us unabashed LIBERALS. :(

[OneGrassRoot]

Very true....

Nice to "see" you, Waiting for Everyman.

:hug:

[Waiting For Everyman]

49. Hey, tfar...

:pals: And thanks LostInVA, too. :)

(My perspective on this is... I started out life on "top of the pile" with every advantage and chucked it, so I know how this type "ticks". They're total followers. They follow anyone they think is "in". I'm tellin' ya - the way to defeat this is for them to encounter peer pressure against it, even if it's subtle, everywhere they go. Even just a firm turning away is enough of a rejection. When it's "out" they'll stop it. And having a titanium self-image doesn't hurt in the meantime either.)

[OneGrassRoot]

52. I've been saying they're "irrelevant." It confuses them a bit...lol

...and they feel lost. Like flicking lint off one's shoulder.

[Waiting For Everyman]

60. Lol, ouch!

Very true, too. They are dinosaurs, aren't they, and I'm not referring to age. One thing I can't stand, is people who won't think for themselves... the ones who have to travel in packs - and that's the power-trippers most of all. They want to dominate, so they allow themselves to be dominated in every way by the pack, to be part of it. They have no clue what personhood is about.

[OneGrassRoot]

62. I just realized that the "viral email" phenomenon is an example...

of this groupthink.

Am I mistaken, or aren't the VAST majority of viral emails generated by the freeper types? I rarely get emails - other than jokes - from anyone other than rightwing relatives and such.

These were the same types of people hooked on the "chain letters" back in the day.

Interesting....

[Marrah_G]

38. I had something similar happen to me the other day

As the idiot spouted his ridiculous talking points to my friend behind the counter I shook my head and said "good lord, you can't really believe all that" as I walked out the door.

[Waiting For Everyman]

63. There ya go,

That, times lots and lots of people, and it changes.

This election in itself, and the fact that Obama is getting so many white votes, is probably changing some minds about sticking with that way of being (at least overtly, in public).

[Romulox]

18. It is juvenile and self-serving to assume anyone who doesn't support Obama is a "racist"

And the idea that this half-baked assumption therefore gives one the right to shut down public discourse only compounds your folly.

"If so, my gosh, it's amazing how often white people discuss racial matters"

The Presidency of the United States is not a "racial matter".

[HamdenRice]

28. What actually did the person ejbr overheard say?

He didn't say, "I don't support Obama."

Let's look at exactly what happened. ejbr wrote:

"He then proceeds to state that both candidates are awful. I flinch, but accept his point of view that the candidates don't speak to him. However, he then begins this diatribe about how Obama supporters are more or less braindead and are being fooled by Obama's hypnotizing speech."

<end quote>

Now what is the probability that a young African American woman in a Starbucks is an Obama supporter? 95%? 99%?

So this person was saying to ejbr "you are braindead."

Notice ejbr did not go off on him for saying that both candidates are bad. She went off because the guy was talking about her.

If she had been white, he would not have been able to presume with 95-99% confidence that the person overhearing the conversation was the also the subject matter of the conversation.

[Romulox]

39. The comments were not directed at ejbr; ejbr CHOSE to interject himself into another's conversation

Again, the idea that discussion of the US Presidency is a "racial matter" which is "off limits" in public places simply because a black man is running for (and winning, I might add!) the Presidency is completely self-serving.

Discussion of Democrats and their supporters does not become verbotten because an African American has won the nod; furthermore, Rush and his ilk (with all the name calling, "dummy-crats", etc. etc.) pre-date the Obama phenomenon by several decades.

"Now what is the probability that a young African American woman in a Starbucks is an Obama supporter? 95%? 99%?"

So what? Neither a white nor a black Obama supporter have the right to shut down discourse over the Presidency of the United States.

"So this person was saying to ejbr 'you are braindead.'"

No he wasn't; ejbr chose to interject himself into a strangers conversation. At any rate, ejbr's devoted his thread to castigating and insulting anyone who disagreed with him that eavesdropping shouting at a stranger is appropriate. So his "issues" aren't limited to Republicans.

[HamdenRice]

45. OK, since you have a blindspot when it comes to race, assume it's a handicap

My god, this is like the oldest trope in the movies. A guy walks into a bar and he has one leg and a crutch. Two guys down the bar start talking about "fucking cripples."

It may be a random conversation topic, but may not be. If you're the guy with one leg, then based on prior experiences, you will judge whether the "fucking cripple" comment was just a random conversation or was intended to be a comment toward you. What the African American and the person with one leg have in common is that their identity is open and obvious, so conversations about that identity may have been provoked by that identity.

No one is saying that discussion of Democrats or Obama is off limits. This goes entirely to the question of ejbr's perception, which is based on ejbr's experience.

He says that some guy was loudly talking about "all Obama supporters" being braindead.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about what was the intention of that person.

[Romulox]

67. I could as easily say you have a blindspot as to basic logic and common sense

"It may be a random conversation topic, but may not be."

The election is next Tuesday. Nothing random about it. :eyes:

"If you're the guy with one leg, then based on prior experiences, you will judge whether the "fucking cripple" comment was just a random conversation or was intended to be a comment toward you. What the African American and the person with one leg have in common is that their identity is open and obvious, so conversations about that identity may have been provoked by that identity."

They were talking about the Presidency of the United States. Nothing could be more public. To compare that conversation to one about a private affliction is completely ridiculous.

"No one is saying that discussion of Democrats or Obama is off limits. This goes entirely to the question of ejbr's perception, which is based on ejbr's experience."

No, public decency most certainly does not subject to the caprice of one individual.

"He says that some guy was loudly talking about "all Obama supporters" being braindead."

You just essentially called me a racist. You're one to speak!

Pot? Kettle? Have you met? :hi:

[Two Americas]

154. no

Racism does not "work both ways." That notion is a product of years of right wing racist propaganda. Also, regardless of the pretext for the conversation - that it was a public issue - that does not mean that the remarks were not very much personal.

"Essentially called me a racist" you say. Nothing of the kind was directed at you. Racism is a set of attitudes, assumptions and premises that influence everyone's thinking to one degree or another. It is not something that you "be" and even were you accused of it, that is not the terrible persecution or offense that the right wingers, and too many liberals and Democrats, want to claim it to be. One would think from your remarks that being "called a racist" is equivalent to, or worse, than being the victim of racism.

Can we never challenge a person's remarks about race and racism for fear that they may think that they are being called a racist, and so take offense? That is how Sean Hannity would have us see this issue, and a relentless propaganda effort by the extreme right wing has been driving the public in that direction for decades. How can we not see this and mention it?

"I don't care whether or not a person likes me, so long as they do not have the power to harm me."

Eliminating any consideration of the inequality and injustice that are the essence of racism, the very reason we discuss it at all, from the concept of racism is to deny that racism exists, and denying that racism exists can be fairly and accurately described as racist, I think. Don't you? You can step away from that notion and remove all danger of being seen as a racist, or you can cling to it with relative impunity, or you can keep it to yourself. You have all power over that and are at virtually no risk. Black people cannot step away from being Black.

[Marrah_G]

40. I often say I think Mccain supporters are braindead and ignorant.

If one starts screaming at me in a public place after overhearing my conversation with someone else then it does nothing except to prove my point.

[Chovexani]

104. lol

http://mmcisaac.faculty.asu.edu/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

Enjoy.

[Romulox]

110. Speaking of "unpacking"--the poster you're defending is one of the biggest supporters of neoliberal

economics on these boards.

Now, there's no racialized component to poverty, the distribution of wealth, and crony capitalism, is there? :eyes:

[HamdenRice]

112. Project much?

It's sad, really, what is happening to you. Just because we disagreed on the bailout, and your feelings seem to be hurt that events are not moving in the "let the system collapse" direction, you've decided to stalk this and other threads of mine and throw around insults.

Just because many of us agreed with Paul Krugman, that something had to be done to prevent the collapse of the financial system, doesn't make us proponents of "neo-liberal" economics.

But if it makes you feel good to say so, so be it.

If your now overly emotional disagreement forces you to have to take racist positions just to disagree with me, even better, because it makes you look foolish.

[Romulox]

113. Based on your other posts, I sincerely doubt you even know what "neoliberal economics" are

"If your now overly emotional disagreement forces you to have to take racist positions just to disagree with me, even better, because it makes you look foolish."

Now you are calling me a "racist" for disagreeing with you regarding either a) the bailout; or b) the propriety of "going off" in a Starbucks? I would be angry if it weren't so pathetic. :hi:

[HamdenRice]

122. You realize you are repeating Fox News talking points, right?

That "someone" out there is saying that every criticism of Obama is some sort of "illegitimate" cry of racism, or "playing the race card", right?

Dis-moi qui tu hantes et je dirai qui tu es.

[Romulox]

124. Not "someone". YOU. nt

[clear eye]

114. Why are you deliberately distorting what the OPer said?

He didn't say those who suddenly start negative conversations about African-Americans in public places when an African-American comes w/i earshot were talking about Obama. He said their conversations were on any one of the stereotypical racist topics.

[Romulox]

117. Because I read the original thread on which this one is based. No distortion.

The conversation was about "Obama supporters".

"He didn't say those who suddenly start negative conversations about African-Americans in public places when an African-American comes w/i earshot were talking about Obama."

The conversation in question was indeed about "Obama supporters". :hi:

[clear eye]

123. But you are stubbornly ignoring the point THIS OPer is making--

"the frequency with which "private" conversations between white people "just happen" to switch to welfare, African American crime rates, or now Obama (or more specifically the stupidity of all Obama supporters), in our presence and the peculiar way that the volume of those conversations increases"

as a way of understanding why a response that might have been "over the top" (HamdenRice's words) in someone of another race, is not so much if the person reacting is an African-American. He is trying to give DUers of other ethnicities, the social context for the reaction. But you don't seem to be capable of absorbing the lesson.

[Romulox]

125. Oh, I do not for a moment deny the phenomenon is real. However, the OP refers to an actual incident

as related in a companion thread.

"The frequency with which "private" conversations between white people "just happen" to switch to welfare, African American crime rates, or now Obama (or more specifically the stupidity of all Obama supporters), in our presence and the peculiar way that the volume of those conversations increases"

Right, but this thread isn't referring to that. It is referring to a person discussing the upcoming election in a Starbucks.

"He is trying to give DUers who are of other ethnicities, the social context for the reaction. But you don't seem to be capable of absorbing the lesson."

Right. That context was eavesdropping on a strangers' conversation relating to the upcoming election that had zero overtly racial component. If any and all criticism of Obama is to be deemed "racist", I think Hamden and others are in for a very stressful four years.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

115. I disagree.

Obama is clearly the best candidate for the job.

It's like hiring for a position at your work place and giving the job to the less qualified white guy.

It's inherently racist.

[Romulox]

118. Well, considering the fact that you're a provacateur/attention seeker

you'd likely disagree if I asserted water was wet! :P :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. You're projecting.

I see you've no response to my argument, as I expected.

[carlyhippy]

194. ......

:eyes:

[PVnRT]

223. LOL

So much Fail on so many levels...

[cosmicone]

19. I've experienced it although I'm not A-A n/t

[Brewman_Jax]

20. Good point

esp. after the OJ murder trial and Katrina disaster. When meth or issues that affect white people solely, you can hear the crickets. Here's an example http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4316996

[crispini]

24. Um, I'm pretty sure ebjr is a him,

since he writes, " I was MVP on my football team. No one is rearranging anything. Thanks! :) n/t"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4331784&mesg_id=4332230

Heh. :hi:

[jonnyblitz]

33. it says so in his profile. nt

[HamdenRice]

36. OK, fixed it in the OP -- thanks! nt

[lostnfound]

26. Recommended.

I honestly don't know how African American people DO keep their sanity. The varying levels of racism and racial ignorance that they live with and grew up with would clearly be enough to make me lose my mind, if I had suffered similar things. The strength of character in some people is remarkable.

[leftchick]

29. I can see that happening

My 11 year old's best friend is black. He is the sweetest, kindest boy and I love his parents too. One night we were sitting having some drinks and chatting while the boys played Wii and were out of earshot. They informed me of all kinds of "passive aggressive" and not so passive racism their child is subjected to at our mostly white Catholic School. Why the offenders are not punished besides a little chat with their parents I can't figure out. It breaks my heart for his friend and that family that this still even fucking exists. As my son said to me, "Racism Sucks!" :(

So, yes, I totally get your point and as usual, very well said.

peace,
lc

[NOLALady]

147. I sent my son to a predominately white Catholic School.

My husband and I were in the principals office on the second day of school. My son came home on the first day of first grade and told me he had a sad day. He told me how he told the children his name but they called him something else. He had never heard the N word before and he couldn't pronounce it.

[leftchick]

168. I am so sorry

these racists are the dregs of white society and should NEVER get a voice. The sad thing is when an elementary age child is so blatantly anti-color we know where they learned it. Jesus would be very upset.

I am hopeful that the majority of our youth are tolerant of others for any differences and treat people the way they would want to be treated, equally, fairly and with kindness and understanding. Starting with my boys.

:)

[Orrex]

42. Lots of good points to consider

In college, I knew a bunch of average white dolts who would leap into casually racist diatribes more or less at the drop of a hat. All it took was a mention of some hot-button topic (such as affirmative action, ebonics, the confederate flag, or--god forbid--welfare), and off they'd go. It wouldn't even require the actual presense of any person of color; these dolts were happy to have their racist conversations for their own sake, often stupidly unaware (or in flat-out denial) that they were racist. All it would take is a simple conversational catalyst, and off they'd go.

Sadly, that "catalyst" can also be the coincidental appearance of a non-white person, whose very presence would bring any of those hot-button topics to the bigot's mind (and of course this fact is, itself, racist). I have the sense that the passive aggressive racism is intended as a sort of release-valve for the racist, who thinks that it's okay to vent his or her bigotry in this way, under the guise of free, protected discourse. If it weren't so stupid and ugly, you could almost feel pity for the racist, who really seems to believe that he or she is just discussing the issues in neutral, objective terms. And, because (to them) it's a neutral, objective conversation, there's no reason not to discuss it at full volume, as contrasted with the private conversation about the Yankees. And if some person of color has a problem with the neutral, objective discussion, it's obviously because that person is used to being coddled by society, of course...


I confess that I haven't made myself aware of these kinds of interactions in public areas, mostly because I don't often bother to listen to other people's discussions . However, I'll try to keep an ear open for these passive aggressive conversations, paying special attention to the demographics of the audience.

Thank you and ebjr for giving me something to think about.

K/R

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

47. Thanks for this insight

I can see where it would happen. I'm hoping that by having Obama as our President, racial prejudice will decrease.

[Sheepshank]

224. for a second there

I thought you said that once Obama is in Office, racial comments would "decease". While it would be lov-erly, I doubt taht can happen so quickly. Then I noticed you actually saad decrease...unfortuantely more realistic.

I have a great friend that is white and married AA. In all honesty, she sees racism almost on a daily basis. Even good friends have said things to her like "I'd bet you're voting for Obama". These people have no idea that they are making comments that appear racist. They honestly think they are making friendly banter.

There is a thin line between some racially motivted ideas that are so ingrained, so feel mean spirited, vs. comments that simply make a generic observation eg French women have smaller boobs, or oriental people have the smoothest skin. Or we saying all generalization are always wrong?

[Solly Mack]

48. We call it "loud talking"

"We" as in everyone I grew up around

A deliberate raising of the voice in a manner that suggest you want people to hear but will claim you didn't have anyone in mind specifically and besides, it was a private conversation and no offense was intended and you shouldn't have been eavesdropping - or when you're monologuing loud enough for others in the house to hear, you say you're just talking to yourself...though the content of your loud talking proves otherwise in all cases

Growing up in the south, I can say without doubt that it was a favorite with the racists in town. I've been on the receiving end of it plenty of times.


But it wasn't just the racists that used loud talking

It is passive aggressive behavior - and even a weapon - but it is not limited to any one group.

[myrna minx]

51. As always, Hamden, thank you for the great post.

I always enjoy your threads.

I have witnessed this at my bus stop, and it can also apply to loudly discussing immigrants, while a sole Somali woman is waiting for the bus. Thank you for bringing a different persepctive to our attention.

[ejbr]

53. EJBR here

Thank you HR.

I neglected to point out, nor could I, in my post that I was working with 15 minutes on my laptop battery so the conveyance of the incident was rushed. However, being still worked up over it, I needed to release and what better place than with family here on DU.

I truly do appreciate your intuition because as I reconsidered my actions, and how others believed I was eavesdropping, an obvious ommission occurred to me. Unlike what may have been understood in my "ranting" post, this guy was not seated with his friend, having a "personal" conversation. He was standing above her table which was extremely close to mine (all things considered) and therefore speaking more loudly than would be needed had he been seated with her. He knew that others could, and would, hear their conversation. It was inevitable.

Don't get me wrong, I really hate having had gone off the deep end. I am far from proud of this. However, I AM proud that I did not let this jerk get away with his bullshit. He was up to no good and I called him on it. I have an appt. so have to sign off, but I want to thank you again HR for your analysis. It has helped me process this entire fiasco.

And to those who still feel that my response was inappropriate without exception. I hear you, I really do. And with that, I know that I will do my best to keep my cool in the future should this occur. However, please know that I will take on any person who is having an obnoxious so-called "private" conversation; as I hope you would too.

:dem:

[dysfunctional press]

68. "...as I hope you would too"

Nope.

going off on a total stranger in a public place because you disagree with their opinion over something you heard while eavesdropping on a private conversation is not what civilized people do.

i'm sorry that you were never taught that.

[ejbr]

79. With all due respect,

did you comprehend anything I've written? The quote "as I hope you would too" is not a desire to have anyone respond in the fashion that I did, but to respond to a situation where another is trying to play a fast one on you. I also indicated that the conversation was not meant to be private, but a passive aggressive attempt to attack me, a stranger within earshot.

Now, you may feel that being abused is acceptable, but I do not. I have already indicated that I appreciate that my tirade was over the top. What more you want me to admit, I don't know. However, I do think it unfortunate that you would assert that being insulted and not responding is okay. SO be it. Have fun with that.

[dysfunctional press]

83. that was YOUR assumption.

but your reaction is not how it's handled in a civil society.

you. were. wrong.

[ejbr]

90. Are you purposefully being obtuse?

We AGREE about my reaction! Do I need to place neon arrows and flashing lights around this previous statement? WE AGREE ABOUT MY REACTION!!!

That being said, SOME reaction was warranted. To give you even more perspective, when he first began speaking with her, I thought, "Sheesh. How obnoxious for him to be standing so close and speaking so loudly." But I figured he was catching up with her and would either sit down or leave. He did neither. You weren't there, so I can see how you are not understanding what was obvious to me. Therefore, I was NOT wrong for responding to this affront, but in the way I responded. Since you WEREN'T there, you have no basis to claim I shouldn't have said anything at all. And if you want me to agree with not responding, in any fashion,this will never happen. Sorry.
:-(

[bertman]

88. I am a civilized person, as you say, QuestionAll, and on two occasions I have "gone off"

on assholes who were using the "socially secure" arena of a public gathering to express their odious personal beliefs in the same manner as has been described here and in the original post. In both instances it was obvious that they had an agenda and were expressing it publicly for all to hear but they were not-so-cleverly using their best "stage whisper" as cover for their actions.

Being civilized does not mean that one allows hateful things to be said in public knowing full well that the offended person is within earshot, while at the same time PRETENDING that the conversation is A) private or B) not offensive. That is not called being civilized, it is called being complicit.

In both cases, I was not the targeted individual, meaning that the so-called private comments were not directed at me, but rather at another person in the room who was obviously the target. For me to stand silently and politely (civilizedly?) in the face of such obliquely direct condescension would have made me a coward of the highest order and an accomplice to the coward who would not directly address the targeted person but chose to shoot from ambush.

Your kind of "civilized" is the so-called politeness that many of us Southerners have known all of our lives. In reality it is not politeness, courtesy, or even acceptable social intercourse, but rather it is acquiescence in the face of bigotry or intolerable displays of bad manners by persons who are willing to take unfair advantage of others in situations where the ill-mannered feel they have the upper hand. In other words, just plain old-fashioned bullying.

[ejbr]

91. BRAVO!!! n/t

[Psyop Samurai]

107. Right on the money again, bertman...

:toast:

[Suspicious]

132. Yeah! What bertman said!

:yourock:

[angstlessk]

158. this is a bit off topic but not unrelated...I was molested on a public bus

(this was over 25 years ago)I am sure this person had done this before. I am convinced most of the other 'girls' simply got up and moved to another seat, got off the bus and waited for another, or stood up till their stop. What I did was stand up and scream to the top of my lungs..."STOP TOUCHING ME, YOU CREEP, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TOUCH ME." The look on his face was that of shocked amazement (which is why I think he had done it before)The bus driver stopped the bus and made him get off...today of course, they would have called the police!

The point is, he did this because of this 'socially secure' place where he believed most women don't want to bring attention to themselves that they are molested.

Thanks for that concept, at the time it never occured to me, but when you brought out that term it just struck me like a bolt of lightening!

[bertman]

192. Same here, angstlessk, it struck me the same way as I was thinking about some of the

incidents I have observed over the years. I admit that I have too often failed to call out the bully. All I remember of those incidents is my feeling of shame that I allowed myself to be an impotent, embarrassed, innocent bystander and an unwilling co-conspirator with the bully. So, I suppose that feeling of shame is what lead me to finally speak up when the next occasion arose.

[myrna minx]

162. Excellent post.

:applause:

[Two Americas]

167. very good

Great post, bertman.

[Caliman73]

227. I agree

It is bullying. Most bigots know that they will not be called out in public, especially if they are in a predominantly white area. I seriously doubt that the guy would have had his "private" conversation in the first place if he was in a predominantly Black establishment.

[Hawkowl]

143. You don't get it

It was a "contrived" private conversation. Sotto voice, just loud enough for bystanders to hear. The guy making the comments knew EBJR would hear and assumed he was an Obama supporter by the color of his skin. He blatantly insulted EBJR by calling him an idiot. Yet the guy did not have the courage to simply confront EBJR directly. Instead of walking up to EBJR and saying "You people are all idiots, go back to Africa", he simply quasi whispered behind his back.

I no longer feel that EBJR's response was over the top because it was a response to racism, not a response to a political viewpoint. There is no way in hell the "whisperer" is ever going to be persuaded to vote for Obama and he was simply baiting EBJR. I sympathize tremendously. I am in awe at African American community's ability to simply grit their teeth, bear it, and continue the struggle----and win! I couldn't do it. Obama is doing it. Look at McCain attack, attack, attack! It is because of Obama's heritage, a heritage of struggle, harassment, discrimination that he is able to simply shrug off McCain like no white candidate could--or like no white candidate would be forced to.

YOU can't tell an African American that it is not polite to lose your temper when someone is calling you a "nigger", or the polite 21st century whisper equivalent of one. Because that's what he heard. So if EBJR wants to call out a whispering racist in a Starbucks, he doesn't need anybody's permission.

[spoony]

216. How the hell do you know all that?

He knew he was speaking "just loud enough"...he was "baiting" him...You're connecting a lot of dots to excuse a foul-mouthed tirade.

[Fire1]

228. Hot Da%N, hawkowl! NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!

[Two Americas]

155. say what?

The stranger was going off on ejbr. Can you truly not see that?

Besides, the context was somewhat missing from the original post, and ejbr has acknowledged that and been very gracious. Also ejbr has said that he/she is not proud of doing this. What else do you need?

Do you not find it extremely offensive and aggressive and hostile the way many whites will talk about minority people in their presence in this way? Or do you deny that it exists, let alone that it is fairly common?

[Number23]

205. You're my hero!

I really hate having had gone off the deep end. I am far from proud of this.

And with that, I know that I will do my best to keep my cool in the future should this occur.

'Cause you sounded like a straight LUNATIC in your other thread. I am so glad to hear that you've had a chance to reconsider your behavior and realized that you could have handled things differently or better. If you could see my face, you'd see that I was beaming at you! :)

And to the OP Hamden who's stated that because ejbr is black that that in any way excuses his out of control behavior, Obama has a term for what you've described -- the "soft bigotry of low expectations". I'm black too and from the South. I know better than to act a fool like that in public because I was taught my actions were never just mine. Because black folks are NEVER seen as individuals, my behavior in public represents my entire family, neighborhood and community too. Is that fair? Not ONE DAMN BIT. Is that the reality of the situation?? My grandmother has never told me a lie once and that was one of the first things she ever taught me.

ejbr could have put that fool in his place without even lifting his head let alone "screaming" (his own description). Even he has come to see the error of his behavior and you should too.

[HamdenRice]

217. the "soft bigotry of low expectations" ??? That was not Obama; that was George W. Bush

But thanks for the Bush talking points anyway.

[Number23]

226. Obama has referred to this phrase as well

And of course you know that.

But thanks for the Bush talking points anyway.

What a stupid response. And the fact that you're clinging to your original idea that black folks acting out in public is justified after even ejbr has admitted that his actions were less than appropriate speaks volumes.

[knitter4democracy]

55. I totally get it. I've had it happen to me.

As many around here know, I went to a small evangelical Christian college. There were a few of us who were a lot more liberal than the rest of the campus (though I was a lot more conservative than I am now), and it was well-known there that I was a feminist. Guys would do that loud talking about feminazis (Rush had just coined the term--that's how old I am), pro-choice abortionists, and how all of us liberals should leave the country and more whenever I was near them in the cafeteria or chapel or in class before the prof got there. Sometimes, they had the balls to say that crap to my face, at which point, I'd tear them apart, but a lot of the time, it was this loud talking thing instead.

It's stupid. It's just a form of bullying that shows that they want to have power over us. I agree--it's time to fight it for what it is and loudly talk back.

[nichomachus]

56. GLBT people don't experience this type of behavior

People don't feel the need to be so subtle.

They still think they have the right to just yell "faggot" or "queer" at you, if they know or think that you're gay. They don't need to do any passive-aggressive talking about sexual matters.

Happened to me just last week.

We're having our Pride march this Sunday - and you just know the Christians will be there with signs and bibles, telling us we're "perverts" and that we're "sinners" and that we're going to hell. There will also be a contingent of local "good ol' boys," driving around screaming "faggots" at the people coming and going from the march.

[Chovexani]

71. Er. Yes we do.

There is a spectrum of bullying, anti-LGBT behavior. Unless you live deep in the heart of the Bible Belt or you just came out five minutes ago, I doubt the only kind of homophobia you've gotten has been the "die faggot" kind.

I have yet to have anyone scream "dyke" at me in the classy office settings I've worked in. But I've overheard more than my share of loud "private" conversations about how homosexuality is a sin and "those people" just want special rights because of what "they do in bed". Particularly when I lived in Phoenix and we had our very own DOMA measure on the ballot.

(And please, please do not turn this into a queer vs. PoC thing. Intersectionality FTW.)

[nichomachus]

81. No -- I'm not trying to start a controversy

Just pointing out that with GLBT people, the knuckle draggers still feel free to use the direct approach, rather than the more subtle approach. although they use that too.

I've never experienced what you describe, but I have heard the "fag" jokes or someone use the word "gay" to mean they don't like something. I just usually chalk that up to insensitivity.

I'm not trying to belittle the African American experience, because I've seen it first hand when out with black friends.

For example, I used to frequent a resort area that was very exclusive (friends had a home there and let me use it whenever I wanted). I came and went without incident numerous time -- even though the local police force was very vigilant. One weekend, I went with a black friend. We got about 100 feet over the town line and were pulled over and asked for identification -- we had done absolutely nothing to warrant a traffic stop. I was puzzled, and then my friend said, "Silly -- what you did "wrong" was you had me in the car."

[Chovexani]

98. I think it's all according to the environment

Trust me, I do see the more blatant bullshit, particularly because I don't look stereotypically queer; I'm relatively femmy looking, and black, so people automatically assume I'm straight (because LGBT are all white and gender non-conformist, dontcha know). They feel comfortable letting the homophobia fly free around me, sadly, because they think I'll join in.

For instance, being a World of Warcraft player, I see a lot of that shit. Constant use of "fag" and "that's gay" on public channels and whatnot. Even in my own guild, the other night there was a parade of "fag" jokes on our voice chat server and I had to call people on it.

But OTOH, living in deep blue places where the F word is not considered punctuation to every sentence, and working in white collar settings where that behavior can get you fired, it does lean more to passive-aggressive side (though at our Pride Parade in NYC, we always have the Catholic League contingent protesting).

[Bluenorthwest]

75. Happend to me last week too

And I'm not even counting the DU events.

[MadHound]

57. Sorry, but that isn't a valid reason for ejbr's over the top reaction

First of all, you're assuming that the person ejbr started screaming at is a racist, or assuming that all of those who don't support Obama are racists. Generalizations and assumptions that if were turned around, you would decry as racist. There are many, many people out there who don't support Obama on grounds other than race.

Second of all, let us assume the worst, let's assume that this guy was a card carrying member of the KKK, just what do you think ejbr's high volume diatribe did? It certainly didn't help Obama's cause for her to go off in the middle of Starbucks. Furthermore, just the fact that ejbr was eavesdropping on this conversation(there is no mention that this was a loud conversation that couldn't be avoided or tuned out). Sorry, but eavesdropping is rude and uncalled for, and to then go off on a person due to what they said, in a conversation that was eavesdropped, that's doubly rude.

Finally your attempt to justify this on the basis of race is, well, weak. First off, there's no indication that anybody involved in this scenario was white, again, you're assuming that a person who isn't supporting Obama is white. Second, even if this person was white, why are you ascribing racist motivations to this conversations. Nowhere is it stated that he was talking loudly, or that he was specifically directed at ejbr, rather ejbr states outfront that this was a conversation that was essentially eavesdropped upon.

Your rationalization for this bad behavior is just as twisted and contorted as your rationalization for the bailout. Speaking of which(yes, you knew I'd get around to that), how are you liking the bailout now almost a month out, what with most of the money going to acquisitions rather than getting loans to consumers and unfreezing the credit market(which is still quite tight, just take a look at the LIBOR numbers and the TED spread). How do you justify taking 70 billion dollars of this money to go towards bonus pay on Wall Street? Are you ready to admit that the bailout was a mistake, or will you continue to cling to your faith in a failed economic policy that is continuing to transfer a record amount of money to the rich from the rest of us?

[HamdenRice]

64. Obviously your post isn't about the OP

Your feelings are still hurt over the fact you were wrong about the bailout, were wrong about treasury bills being down graded, wrong about the dollar going into freefall (there is in fact a flight to the dollar) and have never produced any of the economic rebuttals you were asked to produce.

As for the parts of your post that do address the OP, please note that all of your premises are factually wrong. Ebjr has elaborated on the circumstances in this thread in a way that shows that everything you wrote about the situation is wrong. Therefore, because all your premises are wrong, it's difficult, if not futile, to address what you wrote.

But I will just note that no one has said that anyone who does not support Obama is racist. But if a white guy stands over the table a fellow black customer in a coffee shop saying loudly that all Obama supporters are brain dead, that black customer can draw a legitimate inference that that person intends to offend.

You may not think so, but the African Americans, women, gays, and poor whites who have had similar experiences and posted about them in this thread demonstrate you are clearly wrong.

[MadHound]

130. Amazing, how you deduce these matters when you weren't even there

You're going by a first hand account, as seen through the eyes of somebody who was admittedly losing their cool. You're trying to give the impression that this person was shouting about all Obama supporters being brain dead, when the actual truth of the matter is that the only one who was shouting was ebjr. Sounds to me like the person was merely talking at a conversational level. Granted, some people have louder coversational tones than others, but still and all, it wasn't shouting.

Nor do you or ebjr have anyway of knowing that this was specifically directed at ebjr. It was a conversation that went from mild flirtation to politics, and in fact it seems, from ebjr's original post on this, that the conversational level was quite normal, since he stated that at first he thought it was innocuous noise. Apparently the only time that his ears perked up were when Obama was mentioned:shrug:

As far as the bailout goes, where did I state that bonds would be downgraded immediately? If you actually go back and look, you'll see that my predictions were for things to go south with the bailout three to six months in the future. Sadly, it looks like they're going south even sooner than that, what will the still tight credit market, which you thought the bailout would thaw out, the use of bailout monies for acquisition and bonuses, oh, and the government buying out the banks. Lots of unintended consequences that you didn't see but yet are having a negative effect on our economy. Thank God for the Bailout:eyes: Oh, and get back to me in a few months, and we'll compare our predictions. Or not, but when you do see our bond ratings go south, just remember, you got fooled.

Have a great day:hi:

[shadowknows69]

58. I didn't weigh in on that thread yesterday

I admit the op did seem to overreact but I don't know all the facts, or the vibe of this other person so I pass no judgement. In fact my own anxiety orders, worsened by this last eight years of hell, makes me unable to even leave my house most of the time and given the same circumstances there's better than an average chance that I would have blown up even worse. The thing to remember I think is that it can also to be wisdom to carefully choose your battles. I agree people like this need a public tongue lashing at times and bravo to those who can do so and retain their composure. But, locking horns with the true sheeple only serves to increase your frustration sometimes and your health and peace isn't worth trash like that.

[whathehell]

59. I am a white female and I know EXACTLY what you are talking

about..

To be honest, the same thing is often done to females who are around a group of men who dislike her. Often they are trying to "punish" her for something (like turning down their advances) I've experienced it a number of times. What they do is have "loud" conversations using sexually aggressive, even obscene, language.

The goal, as in your case, is to "intimidate" you, make you feel "uncomfortable" while avoiding a direct confrontation.

Now that I think of it, this equates to "sexual harassment" -- at least in the work place...What we are describing would legally constitute "harassment" -- racial or sexual -- were it in the workplace.

I think you did the right thing...Call out a coward..See them run.:-)

[Chovexani]

69. You're right, and it is meant as an intimidation tactic

I have seen/experienced it used in a variety of settings, steeped in a variety of "isms"--racism, sexism, heterosexism, etc. It is really about bullying. And we all know bullies are inherently cowards.

[Orrex]

70. Not all bullies are cowards

Some are just ignorant assholes. Cowards, maybe. But assholes definitely.


Sometimes I'm so proud of my fellow members of the white-het-male demographic. :sarcasm:

[Chovexani]

72. They are all cowards, period.

People who feel the need to intimidate and harass people into silence and submission do so because they are afraid. They're afraid of what is unfamiliar to them, or what they don't understand, and so they lash out in an attempt to eradicate this scary, unfamiliar thing. I'm sure I don't have to break out the Yoda quote.

[Orrex]

144. I think that you're letting bullies off to easily

I'm reluctant to use the "all bullies are cowards" description because it's too easy, along the lines of "all homophobes are secretly afraid of being gay."

Some people are cruel assholes and aren't motivated by fear of the thing that they're assholes about.


Of course, the external effect is more or less the same, so I think that you and I are ultimately on the same page here.

[whathehell]

152. Thanks for that confirmation..Yes, they generally ARE cowards

or they wouldn't be taking the "indirect" approach...Bullies, certainly, because they almost always outnumber you..e.g. One Black person in a crowd of whites, one female in a crowd of men..

[formercia]

61. Sometimes, it's what people don't say.

Ever walk into a room full of people engaged in conversation and the place goes silent? It's just as evil as a racist comment.

[EnviroBat]

65. My friends and I have take on a "fight fire with fire" approach to

handling these sorts of situations in public. Typically they begin with some loud-mouthed republican, usually of the hillbilly persuasion, and always a "true patriot". They will be yammering away to some poor schmoe about, "That socialist Obama", or "That Muslim Obama", or "That Obama isn't going to get my damn money for these welfare n&#%ers..." You know, typical republican talking points.

It's at this point when I'll turn to my friend and say, "Can you believe how fucking dumb that John McCain/Sarah Palin is"? "How fucking stupid would someone have to be to support that gimpy dope"? My friend always plays along saying, "I know! He's going to fuck everyone out the their social security, tax their medical benefits, cause even more un-necessary wars, and still these idiots are going to vote for him"! I just stand there shaking my head. Before you know it the republican "loud-talk" has dwindled off to sheepish mumblings about NASCAR...

[Stargazer09]

94. That sounds like a good way to handle things! nt

[Chovexani]

66. Thank you. A million times, thank you.

I experienced this kind of bullshit on the regular when I lived in Arizona. Which is rather hilarious considering I was (and still am) a Clinton supporter. The way they'd freak the fuck out when I would challenge them anyway was kind of amusing (apparently I was not "that kind" of Negro).

But yes, this is a kind of harassment that 99% of white people will never understand. My white roommates thought I was being paranoid too, until it kept happening--and until I told them to watch and see if that sort of thing happened when they went out without me. And what do you know, it didn't.

It's all about perception, and there is still an awful lot of knapsack unpacking that needs to go on here. Even more so than there used to be considering the number of recovering Republicans and newbies here now. It's nothing less than privilege to dismiss this kind of thing (and any sort of -ism based harassment, be it racism, sexism, ableism, heterosexism, pick your -ism) as being all in someone's head.

[HamdenRice]

73. You welcome. Remember "Black Like Me"?

or some such? Back in the 1960s, a white author made himself up like a black person and traveled around the country and was astounded by how he was treated.

It's just a realm of experience some people can only be exposed to by sympathetic listening, but never by actually knowing.

[Chovexani]

78. I remember that.

When I was a kid, I went to a 99% rich, WASPy private school. My mom used "Black Like Me" as a teaching tool, to explain that sometimes I would go through bad things and my white friends wouldn't understand, and it wasn't because they were dumb or mean. Just that black kids and white kids go through different things sometimes. That was pretty profound stuff for a five year old.

Threads like these are amazing to me because they illustrate the stark differences in what we deal with. How many five year old white children have to be taught that sort of defense mechanism? :(

[illuminaughty]

203. Damn, I was going to mention that.

Black Like Me, but I didn't know if people would remember it. It was my mother's book and I read it when I was very young. As I said before, "Walk a mile in my shoes, motherfucker" (well I tweaked the saying a bit)

[Two Americas]

156. very well said

"It's nothing less than privilege to dismiss this kind of thing as being all in someone's head."

Very good. Thanks Chovexani.

Good to see you.

[Chovexani]

164. Thank you yourself, friend

Good to see you too. :hug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

74. I posted before about the conversation I overheard in a restaurant near home

where a woman was sounding off to the man she was with about how Michelle Obama was so "uppity" and "had said that she'd never been proud of America before."

I confronted her and asked her why she thought it was so strange that a black person should have trouble feeling proud of America.

She insisted that African-Americans didn't have any reason not to feel proud of America.

I asked her how many black people she knew.

She just sputtered and said, "That doesn't have anything to do with it."

As my German grandmother used to say, "There's no cabbage grown that will cure stupidity."

[TCJ70]

80. I don't know if I'd call that discrimination...

...but the guy didn't make a comment about African Americans, he made a comment about all Obama supporters. Me. You. Many people who post on these boards that are NOT African American. EJBR's response was a total knee-jerk, over the top reaction to a conversation he MADE HIMSELF A PART OF.

The other guy is obviously an idiot, but reading EJBR's account of the story it seems he reacted quite calmly to the outburst that was directed at him.

[HamdenRice]

86. No it's not "all Obama supporters. Me. You."

If there is one thing, as an African American, I would ask you to try to grasp, it's why your statement, quoted above, is wrong.

If you are in Starbucks, no one can tell whether you are an Obama supporter or not. If someone starts mouthing off about Obama, or his supporters being braindead, you have no reason to believe it was directed at you.

If you are African American and someone looms over your table shouting that all Obama supporters are "braindead" -- knowing that 95-99% of African Americans are Obama supporters -- then the intent is different.

If you cannot see the difference, then I suggest you discuss this in depth with your black friends.

As I wrote upthread, if you have one leg and one prosthesis and crutches, and you walk into a bar, and someone starts talking loudly about "fucking cripples," I assure you, you would not think its possible that the loudmouth could be talking about any of the other customers.

[TCJ70]

131. There's a difference in your example with "cripples"...

...in that people of all backgrounds support Obama.

ON EDIT: I went back and read the OP. No where does it state that anyone was "looming" over anyones table. I don't know where you're getting that from. Also, no references to anyone shouting until EJBR stands up and yells at the guy. Hrm...

[bettyellen]

188. but 90% of blacks support Obama - so it's an easy leap for this man to make that ebj was a captive

audience and target for the rant.
same shit happens to women all the time.

[Gman2]

82. I have a neonazi{repub} friend that sent nazi literature.

Blaming all the fin. crisis on the dems giving the candy store to the poor and ill. I told him to stop sending that trash. I have heart failure from that lying fuck Bush. I am a plastic inj. moldmaker and BPA is responsible, and he hid it for years. I told my neonazi friend that I will tear the head off of anyone that spouts that hate, without any warning. He makes some rubbish up about it not being hate. I reiterated. I will face down any crew that is not armed. I am not black, gay, or a woman, but I dont think it would take much, to make these cowards pee their pants. We, men, can act as those white kids did to support the efforts of civil rights.

The ignorant right thinks us pansies. They dont think they will get called out in public. If all of us consistently destroy those pukes, it wont take long to modify their rancid beliefs.

There was a socioligical experiment that was a single blind. The mark was placed ate varying places in a panel. The panel would answer in kind that for instance the sky is green. In a remarkable amount of time, the mark would truly question their own mind and would reply likewise. We must NOT allow our follow citizens exist in ignorance. Speak up. And do so, at least initially, without cursing, or punching. If the person insists on their ignorance, they need a lesson up to, and including extreme pain.

[notadmblnd]

84. I read the post and I agree with what your saying

My husband was an African American. It was usually me that had to point out the subtle racism to him when out in public. I remember standing in line at the check out in Toys R Us and the white cashier not checking the ID of the woman in front of us that was using her credit card to make her purchase but when my husband pulled out his card, he was asked for ID. I did what I thought was the right thing and confronted the racist cashier. To my surprise, he stopped me. I was in a huff, I demanded to see the manager. I wanted an explanation. He grabbed me by arm and just said "baby, let's go." He came from the south, grew up during the civil rights era and here he was thanking this woman for asking him for his ID and dragging me out of the store. To this day I don't understand why he reacted like this.

[Chovexani]

100. Your husband reacted that way because it was not new to him.

You weren't pointing out anything new or unusual to him. I can guarantee you that he knew exactly what was going on before you'd even opened your mouth.

When you're black in America, you go through this kind of shit literally from the day you're born. If you fought every single racist slight against you every moment of every day, you would collapse from exhaustion around Day One, Hour Three. It is literally exhausting, in every sense of the word, to be fighting every single dumb ass white person that says or does something racist to you.

In other words, your husband was probably just tired and wanted to GTFO. Yes, it was bullshit, and he didn't need you educating him as to the nature of the bullshit. Maybe he just wanted to go home and have some peace.

Edit: I'm sorry if this post sounded unnecessarily harsh, because your heart was in the right place. You rightfully wanted to come to the defense of a loved one. Sometimes it is just not worth the stress of the fight though. Minorities learn from a very early age to pick our own battles.

[notadmblnd]

105. I wasn't trying to educate him. I was attempting to educate the cashier and management

Before he died he told me some stories about growing up in the south. How he was arrested for riding in the front seat of a car with a white woman who had picked him up and given him a ride to work and how he went to jail for 10 days for stealing an ice cream sandwich when he was a boy. Or watching the only black sheriff in town shooting down his nephew just because he asked a question about a friend being beaten by the cops. Of course, there were some funny ones too. The one that sticks in my mind the most was how blacks had to sit in the balconies at the movie theaters and that what the kids would do is piss on to the white people down below. I guess after what he'd been through growing up, being asked for ID wasn't a big deal to him like it was me.

[treestar]

85. I think I am guilty of the reverse

I might keep quiet about politics, but when talking to or near black people, I seem to think it's OK to talk about how great Obama is. Gotta remember that one of the ten black people who are voting for McCain might be there!

Really, I think you are right. Didn't think about being followed in stores, either. We white people need to hear these stories to remind us it's not as great for black people as we think it is. We get too easily comfortable thinking the racism thing has been solved.

[Solly Mack]

87. A word (or two) about the "eavesdropping" question

even though HamdenRice really covered it here as well...

"basic point is: I can insult you by pretending to have a private conversation, and you can't insult me back. It may have seemed like a private conversation, but it wasn't."


See, in polite society you shouldn't eavesdrop and everyone is conditioned to this lesson from an early age. The thing is, the person doing the loud talking is relying on just that. They are counting on you being so afraid of being accused of being rude that they get away with a far worse transgression. They rely on how hard it is to break that conditioning that often prevents people from confronting such bullies. People are then too embarrassed to stand up for themselves and others. It's intentional harassment and intimidation.

Loud talking is an effective weapon...because it not only allows the loud talker to get way with their hate, it also silences people. People are too afraid to speak up...too afraid to confront...and all because it's "impolite" and that fear makes it easier to ignore such people...but ignoring such people does nothing but allow them to get away with their behavior.


Think about the victim of loud talking...when the entire room hears and everyone pretends not to...how do you think the intended target feels? Alone. In a room of people who either agree with the loud talker or are too afraid to help the victim.

Fact is, sometimes - it IS your business. Because the loud talker is making it so. Speak up and quash the hate.

[ejbr]

93. RIGHT ON!!! n/t

[HamdenRice]

97. I had southern aunts that could have entire conversations out loud in the kitchen

all by themselves, but loud enough for everyone to hear, basically going through all their complaints some others family member!

:rofl:

Yup, it's universal, and often used in family life, and the incident in question is just another venue where this technique is used.

[Solly Mack]

101. I know exactly what you're saying about the aunts! LOL!

and then I've been in restaurants with booths that should have allowed for some privacy only to hear the booth behind me get louder and louder about "The nerve of some people" and "They should keep that kind of thing at home"

It's a verbal attack...pure and simple.

[kwassa]

134. Speaking out against this crap is necessary.

I agree with Solly, if someone is making it loud enough to intrude on your space, it becomes your business.

It is akin to a parent abusing a child in public. Even if it is THEIR child, abuse is abuse, and one human shouldn't abuse another. I've spoken out on that, when I run into it.

Great thread, by the way.

[Two Americas]

166. a far worse transgression

"They are counting on you being so afraid of being accused of being rude that they get away with a far worse transgression."

That's it, yes.

[Terran]

89. I would agree with your analysis, BUT for this one fact:

As described by the poster, there was nothing overtly racial in the conversation he overheard; it was just some really ignorant remarks about Obama's supporters, and not even about the man himself. So while I totally agree that there are situations where such a reaction would be warranted, I don't feel this was one of them. The poster apparently (based on what you're saying) reacted based on a perception that may or may not have been accurate.

Lest anyone call me insensitive, I'll just point out, as I have before, that my partner of 22 years is African-American, and I've seen and heard a lot over the years that confirm for me the truth of what you're saying in general. I've seen him followed around in stores, seen the car doors lock when a car pulled up next to us at a bus stop, seen white women clutch their purses closer when coming near him. And I've seen some things MUCH worse than any of those directed at him, including a drive-by shouting of the n-word. So I have considerable sympathy for the long-term stress that such bullsh*t causes in people.

[HamdenRice]

96. "about Obama's supporters, and not even about the man himself" - but that's the point!!

Obama is a politician and candidate. People can say all sorts of things about him that aren't racist.

But if some white guy is standing over a black guy's table talking about all Obama's supporters being braindead, are you saying no one can infer that the black guy is 95% likely to be an Obama supporter, and that therefore the comment is directed at him???

[Terran]

109. I totally disagree

1) Calling an individual or a group of people "braindead" is a non-racial insult. You are asserting that because the OP is black, that he was justified in his reaction merely because Obama is black too. There is no other connection, no other reason. If the guy had said something that insulted Obama supporters based on their assumed race, which would have reasonably included the OP, that would be different.

2) Given the above, it doesn't matter that the guy could have inferred that the OP was an Obama supporter. As I said in that other thread, he has a right to his opinions, rude and stupid as they are, as does the OP. The OP insisted to me he had the right to do what he did, and I don't disagree, but my point was and is that there are assumed rules of civilized behavior involved here. Most reasonable people, when they happen to overhear someone say something they don't like that is not directed at them personally, don't decide to go screaming and cursing at the speaker in response. There were proper ways to handle the situation, and he chose an improper way.

After I made my earlier post to this thread, I called up my partner at work and asked what he thought of the thesis of this thread; we had discussed the incident last night, and he agreed then that the behavior was unwarranted. His response to excusing the OP because of his race: "Nigga please!" (in other words, he strongly disapproves).

[Gman2]

159. Nope. We were schooled about the Dixie Chicks.

You have a right to say anything. You also have the responsibility to consider those around you. If you say something inflammatory, you should expect to answer for it. To declare you have an absolute right to say any damn thing you please, should get you taken apart. Enough of these clods get their asses kicked, and the cowards that comprise the vast majority of racism, sexism, homophobia, and every other class they would like to persecute, will keep their filth out of the public space. I dont mind telling you, that any that I find with these insecurities, will feel the danger of answering wrong, when I quiz their obvious hate. I think public apologies, in front of the girlfriend, or other aquaintance, will quickly teach the offender proper civility. Proper dealing with clods entails a slow progression of attention. Give them an out first. Be gentle. If that fails, get mean, not cussing. If that fails, tell the person in no uncertain terms that you would destroy their ability to inflict their hate on anyone else, if the law didnt penalize you for it. If they continue, impliment the ultimate lesson plan. Ultimately, some may need personal threat, to end issuing their personal threats. Enough people feel immune to spew hate, it will quickly become the status quo.

[HamdenRice]

160. "Proper dealing with clods entails a slow progression..."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh man, that's priceless. You make it sound like training a farm animal!

[pipi_k]

95. Point taken, but

While I personally question the wisdom of butting into conversations that don't involve me personally, if someone is going to invite himself into the conversation between two other people, it's probably a good idea to do it as politely as possible.

Going off....as the term was put...only tends to make the "offee" (the one doing the screaming and yelling) look like an ass...and, by association, although it's wrong and unfortunate...extends to others in his particular grouping or who share his characteristics.

Whether the issue involves racism, sexism, ageism, etc.


So my opinion on this is...if people are going to involve themselves in conversations uninvited...do it with class. Nobody...but nobody...has the right to verbally abuse someone else for any reason.

[Captain Hilts]

102. Actually, women experience this shit daily too. Yes, it stinks.

And my being a good sport about it is wearing thin too.

Keep up the Good Fight!

[EFerrari]

135. It's a way of making someone a nonperson. It does happen to women

all the time.

[Catherine Vincent]

108. Right on, brother!

:thumbsup:

[Poll_Blind]

111. Excellent piece!

PB

[skooooo]

116. Without knowing ejbr was black..

...I said I didn't blame him for his reaction. Now that I know he's black, I REALLY don't blame him. The jackass at Starbuck's was out of line regardless, and I'm glad he got an earful.

[JackDragna]

120. It's still no excuse.

Bad behavior is bad behavior, no matter what the race of the person. I'm not saying the people who bring up such obvious hot-button issues are without blame. Much of the same thing happens to me. I go to a bar where I'm the often the only liberal and people know it. I am baited constantly with the most over-the-top comments about being a Commie, a traitor, a socialist and whatever else one can name. It is still incumbent upon me, however, as it is with all individuals, to maintain a proper sense of decorum.

What's being missed here is the idea that people who bait others in public are often looking for, and hoping for, angry, exaggerated responses. I wouldn't blame ejbr for saying something rather pointed. To blow one's stack, however, is inexcusable.

[Suspicious]

127. I say when confronted with racism,

whether it be passive aggressive or blatant, we are obligated to speak out - no matter the color of our skin.

To me, it doesn't matter an iota whether that person "intended" the comment as ejbr perceived it, nor does it matter that the conversation did not originally involve ejbr. At the VERY LEAST, the comment was extremely rude and insensitive, and it was made within earshot of other people; therefore, anyone offended by it had every right to speak out against it. At worst, it was deliberate bigotry, and the guy deserved an earful from anyone listening.

[TexasObserver]

129. Yes, it's absolutely true. I've seen it.

I'm white, and I've observed that kind of thing many times. The comments are not entirely out of bounds, but they're clearly directed at the black people within hearing range. It's a form of racist bullying, and groups of white people do it. They may be workers, they may be college kids, they may be drunks.

[HamdenRice]

133. Well, it's good we can agree on some things and disagree on other things

unlike certain other DUers who seems to be twisting themselves into knots to deny this happens because they are angry about our disagreement over the bailout.

You have a much stronger character.

[TexasObserver]

141. Indeed.

Hell, I didn't even know you are black until this thread.

People who don't recognize this phenomenon are doing a disservice to blacks. It implies blacks are reacting to things that aren't really there.

[gollygee]

136. Surely everyone has experienced this, even if not the racist version

Wasn't everyone in Jr. High school at some time? And some snotty girl would lean against your table and say really loud to someone right by her, "Oh and you know what I heard? I heard Julie likes Tom, but Julie must be fooling herself if she thinks Tom will ever notice her." If you are Julie, oh yes indeed that is an insult and a form of bullying, and very much directed at you.

I am not surprised adult bigots use that same form of bullying in their daily lives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. I get it, but that is because friends while hubby was in the navy were

ahem african american....

For the record, after I open my mouth I sometimes enjoy the same treatment... since I am an immigrant... ah lovely accent you see.

And I do confront racists all the time...

Hey the other day (bear in mind I am white) I got an Obama cup at the 7-11 and I was asked by a nice looking twenty something towing two kids

You are going to vote for that nigger? (I use the words for the full effect)

Yes, and I am glad to see you are raising your kids to be american racists.

Of course I said it loud enough... the other people in the 7-11 broke into applause and she left in a huff....

Of course since I have an accent she was told this by a wet back, aka a colored.

:hug:

It will get ugly... I know that... but on the bright side.... it will force MOST of the country to grow up

[Gormy Cuss]

138. Thank you , HamdenRice.

Spot on.
I hope to live long enough to see it change, but I have my doubts.

[Two Americas]

145. you are right

Thanks, HamdenRice.

[slackmaster]

157. I always get followed around in North Park Hardware even though I am a white of pure kraut origin

The Jews that run the place have never trusted me.

:sarcasm:

BTW thanks for posting this, HR. When I read the other thread it did not occur to me that there might be a racial component that triggered ejbr's outburst.

[NOLALady]

161. Thanks HR.

I've experienced this passive aggression behavior many times. Depending on my mood, I may ignore or confront it.

I have on occasion confronted it in a very polite and "civilized" manner. The more polite my manner, the more crap I "heard" from this co worker. Finally, I told her to STFU. No more problems. We were 'best friends' by the time I retired. If she complained about "those people", I didn't hear it.

[Chulanowa]

163. I've seen it happen, from three angles

First, I seem to often be mistaken for a Latino - half-native will get that for you. 'Cause the volume and frequency of conversations involving the subject of drugs, illegal immigration, and gambling seem to occur in my presence with startling frequency.

I've been part of a conversation where the topic changed from the day's work to some racially touchy subject when a "new crowd" walks in.

I've also witnessed it from conversations I'm not part of.

I still stand by my position that the solution is not to scream and curse and point. A calm, reasoned response will flay skin from bones far more easily than spraying spit and getting shrill, and is far more effective at deconstructing sterotypes (are you an angry black, a drunk indian, or a crazy Mexican?)

[Danascot]

165. Think about this

Barack Obama will soon be our president. Based on everything we've seen in his campaign, I am confident he will go on to be considered one of the greatest presidents our country has ever had.

The progress in acceptance of African-Americans in this country has been glacially slow and painful over decades and even centuries. But I think for many average Americans, President Obama's success will destroy the last barrier in accepting the idea that an African-American can be at least the equal of anyone in every meaningful way. And for the average African-American I think things ever after will be just a little better.

Of course racism will not be dead until the last racist is dead. But we are privileged witnesses to an enormously significant development in American history. We were there and we helped bring the Obama presidency to reality. Think about what a huge and wonderful step this will be. Not just for African-Americans but for all Americans.

"Until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes."

[Two Americas]

170. dead racists

I do not see racism as something that people "be" but rather it is found in what people think and do. It is not so simple and easy as killing off racists, since virtually every white person in the country is subject to operating on racist assumptions and premises and all of us contribute and participate in various ways to the racism built into the system.

[mhatrw]

169. Of course you are right. n/t

[BoneDaddy]

171. Ya know if it wasn't done in the spirit of "fuck you"

I think I could actually have a conversation about it. But when it comes down to "you white people don't understand shit" bullshit, you lose me.

Let's have a conversation, not you pontificating or denying my reality in lieu of what your experience is.

[proud2BlibKansan]

172. Excellent post!

A Hispanic woman I worked with told me a similar story. She and her husband were in the grocery store and they were speaking Spanish to each other. They both speak English too but often go back and forth between the two languages, as many bilingual people do. So anyway, as they are talking to each other, a woman comes up and tells them they are being rude to be speaking a language no one around them in the store understands.

People are rude. And ignorant. That doesn't make it okay, but maybe if we keep telling these dipsticks over and over that they are being dipsticks, they might learn a thing or two.

[fishwax]

174. thanks for posting this -- I've seen that kind of thing happen quite a bit

:kick:

[BrklynLiberal]

175. Anyone familiar with "The Invisible Man" by Ralph Ellison?

[MellowDem]

176. Thanks for the information my Black Friend!

How helpful and awesome you are! What would I, a White, do without you to tell me all the secret forms of discrimination out there among Whites?

Ok, seriously? I read the post your referring to and there is NO evidence race had anything to do with it. You can definitely ASSUME it did, but that's all your doing. And the "secret discrimination" you talk of is not secret, everyone uses it. I've seen blacks use it around me, trying to make me feel uncomfortable. Or Spanish men at a little Spanish town who could tell I was not from there. So let me let you know about a little secret discrimination tactic used among Blacks: they do the same thing! Crazy, ain't it? Now, let me start a whole thread about it!

In other words, this is not a real big deal, the story your referencing is not an example of it, it is not secret, everyone deals with it, including many African Americans I am sure. Your assumptions and rather confounding condescension, as if you are the end all be all on racism or discrimination, and your inflation of the referenced post serve only to prove once again why the concept of race is so idiotic.

It doesn't make it right, but neither does it make race-baiting and one-sided conversations of race applicable.

[lyonn]

178. Pay a waiter to pour water on them accidentally......

The waiter/waitress would have to be white or all hell would break loose.

[Alameda]

181. You are not paranoid....it happens a lot...not just to African Americans

but to any "other" groups....sometimes the ones it's happening to just don't realize it's going on. Been there, seen that.

[Evoman]

182. Of course your right. I even remember sititng in a restaurant with

my brother and his girlfriend.

We are both latino, but I look like a white guy and he is unmistakenly latino. These two old bitchy lady started talking, a little too loudly, about interracial couples and their "poor children".

Not to mention, since I fit in with white people, I've heard a shit-load of racist bullshit before they found out I'm not one of them.

[coolhandlulu]

185. another example from an aa

im at work minding my own business, standing around for a minute chatting with a coworker. a coworker from another department comes to our unit, engages in some trivial conversation briefly and then brings up something about mccain, blah blah blah. without missing a beat i reply "well, its a good thing we don't have to worry about him being our president", just as casually, no attitude, but maybe with a little snear at the end of my comment. you would have thought i blasphemed. he turned beet red, the coworker i was chatting with looks surprised that i would even dare say anything, and im taken a little bit off guard. im one of those new transplanted uppity negroes i guess and they are not used to dealing with our type down here in the deep south. well, i guess the way they used to deal with us has been criminalized. anyways, he starts talking out of his arse and i responded by rambling off facts. not the approach he was expecting. then he brings up something about some picture of obama holding a phone the wrong way, upside down, saying "yeah, hows that for your harvard graduate. cant even hold a phone the proper way!" i couldnt help it y'all, i laughed so hard i almost had an aneurysm. when i finally recovered, i managed to get out "have you ever heard of photoshop?" but see, that's the mentality that a lot of black folks have to deal with at times. some white folks think they can just pop off at the mouth and that you have to accept it.

[chknltl]

187. Thank You for letting me walk a moment....

...in shoes I don't own. Thank You very much. :pals:

[ismnotwasm]

190. White Privilege

http://www.case.edu/president/aaction/UnpackingTheKnapsack.pdf


And by no means a complete list. Peggy McIntosh coined the term and used personal soul searching to come up with the list.

White privilege is real. Whiteness it the invisible, silent, unaccountable standard by which all else is measured. The 'norm'. The path to combat the inherent dicrimination in it is it to first acknowledge it. I do try, and I appreciate your post.

[Pavulon]

191. word? impulse control is a racial thing

i spent a year plus trapped with people in the balkans. Some I liked, some I hated. All races represented. However the order of the day was to keep your shit together and not piss on everyone else.

In the real world this helps. I hear stupid shit all the time. I can act like an adult and deal with it in my head or act like a little jerk and flip out.

This experience crosses racial lines. Not being an ass is not a racial thing.

I disagree with this on many levels.

[Mister Ed]

196. Thank you. n/t

[undergroundpanther]

199. I have gotten that kind of shit

not because I am black, but because I am transgender. I have gotten it because of my tattoos and my appearance.
Bigots are bullies and racists are assholes . I have overheard that kind of racist shit when black people are around. I have been tracked in stores because I look different.Likewise I have seen black people tracked in stores too,along with young people/goths/punks.And I hear the shit said..whispered insults and slurs.I hate it in all it's forms it pisses me off. The passive racism /homophobia/bigotry is disgusting ,and I don't care if it is hushed bigotry over those "freaks""hoodlums","Bums", or "tranny weirdos" or blacks..When I hear it I bend their fucking ears for it and make no apologies and I don't do it quietly.I aim to shame the bigots..and I do.

[illuminaughty]

201. Oh hell yeah.

And I'm getting pissed reading some of the responses. They don't get it because they've never experienced it. It always is best to "walk a mile in someone else's shoes".

I have a dance studio and one of my African American male students began to teach for me as soon as he was old enough. He later became Director of the studio and is like a son to me. My best friends are an interracial couple. I could generate lists of situations that occurred when I was in a mixed group in public that would never have happened if we were "whites only". Situations that decent people would not believe capable of happening "in this day and age"(as I hear said so often)

In fact, I have had trouble convincing white friends that these situations actually happened.
They want to blame it on something else. Back in the days when I had money, I loved to frequent upscale restaurants and my friend is a professional chef(he's AA) We always readied ourselves for
some sort of "racist moment" Fortunately, he resembles and has the wit of Chris Rock, and we end up with the last laugh the majority of the time. But it goes without saying, this shit just shouldn't be tolerated and I love when someone speaks truth to pretend power...

[ClayZ]

202. My daughter has two white children.

When her sister-in-law got in big trouble with drugs, she took in her new born niece and 4 year old nephew, both bi-racial.

She had them all in and on a shopping cart at Target. Her two (age 2 and 4) and the 4 year old cousin were in the cart being rowdy. My daughter was trying to calm them, the baby was fussy. She was obviously, stressed. A stranger, an older white woman walked over to her and shook her finger at her and said, "Thats what you get for sleeping around with every man in town."

My daughter told her loudly, to "FUCK OFF"!

I still laugh when I think of it!

[hiphopnation]

206. i get what you're saying

and see the point being made about the other thread. that being said, seems to me you (and all of us) need to be a bit more selective about the battles we choose - some are not only not winnable, they're simply not worth your time and energy.

if Mr. Obama's tenor during this whole primary and campaign season has taught me anything, it's that cool heads prevail. Coolness is the order of the day - spread the word.

keep cool, we're winning!! :hi:

[ContraBass Black]

207. I am often targeted with such behavior.

[bridgit]

208. I don't think you're being paranoid, I think you're being picky...

A form of tag team, this is an eloquent piece without doubt, as is ejbr's. Though does it not in the end...does it not from the beginning endeavor to circumscribe "form(s) of discrimination" that only AA's are able to identify? Only AA's are able to speak to, and everybody else is just plain dumb, un-cool, un-hip; especially, ahem, cough: our White...Friends?

I won't need to see some filthy, black dusted WV coal miner with his dirty boots up on a chair sipping a green tea latte in a Grosse Pointe, MI, Starbucks before I'll know that America has begun to heal. Nor do I see need to defend my dignity before every banal, perhaps even less specific; intercepted eavesdropped form of disembodied data, every utterance America is about to make in passing. Sometimes it's better to simply snap the laptop closed and sign off,

"This is Potpourri reporting from the belly of the American beast: Starbucks!!"

[tbyg52]

209. Thank you. This is why we read. nt

[annabanana]

210. I have seen this in action and it is infuriating..

My only personal experience of it (in a MUCH milder and less "fraught" form) was when I was traveling with what must have looked like a "hippie troupe" beck in the late 60's.

How much MORE infuriating it must be to have lived with it all your life and be unable to change the dynamic with a haircut or a change of clothes. You know it's aimed right at you, but you can't respond because it's not directed to you.

It gives a room a "fight just waiting to happen" charge that is poisonous.

Perhaps more people will be emboldened to stand up against it on behalf of the beleaguered with a new national dynamic.

[Chalco]

211. When you lance a boil, it's ugly and messy at first, but then...

the healing starts. This country has to go through this. It will be out in the open if Obama becomes president and yes it will be ugly but past the ugliness is a more healthy nation.

[JonLP24]

212. Yes being married to my wife I have seen much racism

The latest example is me and my wife used to live above a young white family. The woman would constantly complain about her kids and most of the time they were dumb complaints. For example, her daughter(instead of saying our I didn't father any of the children) was playing jacks with my wife's cousin and she went to complain that her kids were running around playing all that it wasn't true! They were just playing jacks. There was time she told my wife "Tell your kids not to leave skateboards in front of my door!" The thing was it didn't belong to us. I'm telling you for months she was complaining about literally nothing and you got to realize these are just kids. There is a time before we get home and they get out of school that they are home first, the oldest is 13 and he is capable of watching the others for a short period of time so she decided to call CPS!! Eventually my wife confronted the woman and told her enough about the complaints. We seperated, me and my wife shortly after this and she filed a police report on my wife saying that she threatened to kill her and was eventually taken to court. Now this woman had her daughter appear with her and both were saying pretty much the same thing that she threatened to kill her. My wife tried to get the judge to release the 911 tape to her but he declined and sided with the woman the whole time and she was forced to move. I wish I could've been there but for months my wife has been telling me about these complaints and she acted appropriately every time but eventually it got silly and understandably she got fed up with it. We've lived in several places and we never had one complaint. Except for one about 4 years ago when the kids were throwing rocks in the swimming pool at one complex. But for me personally, previous friends I have had that I could never imagine being racist, once I told them I had a black g/f they paused.. one told me that white people were becoming the minority and he needed me to populate more white babies. I told him he was out of his mind and cut him off. Many were just uncomfortable with it. Also when I joined the army and paticularly when white people found out I had a black wife I got made fun of, one would dramatize 'us' by using exaggeratted, stereotypical imitations of how she might talk. She grew up in Springfield, IL in a black community so she does have an accent like someone who grew up in rural Tennessee but it was nothing like the over the top impersonation that he did and she uses the same words we do. She is a little more excited as well as her family members when expressing them. Also people in stores give me second looks when they see me with my wife that I never get if I was in there by myself. So I understand exactly what you mean, there is just so much hidden racism that was never actually expressed to me until I had a black woman.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

213. As a white person I am aware this exists

and that's why I didn't post on that guy's thread that he had overreacted.

Many times I have been the other person in this equation: the Closest Available White Person. The one minding her own business when some shithead decides that, based on skin color, we share a point of view.

When some stranger nudges me in line and says of the people working at the counter, "They're taking their own sweet time, huh?" and I look and see all the workers are black, I know what he or she is saying. And I consider it my responsibility to shut that shit down. To reply loudly, "They look pretty busy to me." Even if they really are taking a long time. Because that's not what he's talking about.

Or if an acquaintance tells me how long it took her to check out at the grocery because the woman in front of her was using food stamps - "You know, they always have food stamps" - she knows I know who "they" are, so I understand that "always" means they prefer to live on welfare.

And again, it's the job of whites to shut that shit down. We can do it subtly with a cold smile and dismissive phrase, or flat out ask them what the hell they're talking about. I've got a whole repertoire of responses, unfortunately, because it's happened that often.

So I know it happens to you.

[Brazenly Liberal]

215. Actually I do know it exists because it has happened to me

It's passive-aggressive assholery and the loudmouth cowards who engage in it do so to intimidate others (from a safe distance). And they'll do it to anyone their pea-sized brains say is someone to be smacked down. If you're black, they'll start in on welfare or crime or whatever other hot-button issue their bigoted little minds think is appropriate. For me it was my gender. I worked at a company where the male members of management would routinely pull that crap on female members of management.

That being said, I am to this day amazed at how many white people deny racism still exists when it's perfectly clear that it does. I honestly don't get it. Seemingly very nice people will shock you by saying something out of the blue that is incredibly racist and then be shocked and offended when you object to it.

[Name removed]

219. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deaniac21]

222. I'm a very attractive woman. I get followed around everywhere I

go. Easy for me to relate.