What did the 9-11 terrorist do or say that ties them to Islam?

[Bandit]

How did our "War on Terror" get to be a religious battle? Who first said they were religious terrorists and what evidence was given? I personally think it has far more to do with the west stealing the resources of the east than any religious inclination..

[plaintiff]

1. You are joking, yes?

???

[Bandit]

2. What a great answer

Now I know how and why America is in a Religious battle... Thank you

[plaintiff]

4. You can count me as one on the front lines against fundamentalism

regardless of how they spell the name(s) of their imaginary deitiy(ies).

[jeff30997]

6. So you're including Christian fundamentalism too ?

I'm just curious.

[plaintiff]

7. Absolutely!

They are no different or better than any other religious nutballs.

[Gwendolyn]

18. That isn't so. The Amish have managed to live their faith without destroying

lives and the environment. The worst you can criticize them for is that moustachless beard style the men seem to favor. It isn't a good look at all.

[Cerridwen]

21. And, puppy mills.

A report from 1993

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CEEDF123FF933A1575AC0A965958260

A report from July, 2008

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/features_lifestyle_animal/2008/07/cops-raid-suspe.html

[Gwendolyn]

26. I didn't know that.

:(

Actually I was just trying to find something positive to say. All religious fundamentalists make me queasy.

It just seems to me that if I found myself lying in twenty blown apart, bloody bits 'n pieces outside a cafe, the Amish would be the least likely to be the cause of my unfortunate circumstance.

[Cerridwen]

29. I figured.

That's why I made a point of getting links.

Those who would excuse their hate or hateful actions on "religious" grounds are, as far as I'm concerned, the lowest scum on the planet. They are the scum that scum wipe off the bottom of their shoes.

No, I've never heard of "suicide bomber" Amish, but I'd keep my dogs far from them. :( A lot of people use the Amish as examples of peaceful, caring followers; and, with regard to their fellow humans, perhaps they are. Since most of us subscribe to some hierarchy of value, that may be enough to "make an exception" to their treatment of dogs; hey, they're just animals, right?

Unfortunately, the very same people who would leave you "lying in twenty blown apart, bloody bits 'n pieces outside a cafe" don't think much more of you than the Amish think of those dogs. It's just a matter of degree and location on the "food chain."

We've been fortunate in the US that most of our "religious" fanatics don't much care to blow themselves up with their targets. We're still very "individualistic" in our thinking and aren't prone to sacrifice for "the greater good." But don't kid yourself, there has been plenty of "faith based" violence in this country. It's usually reported as an anomaly rather than "the norm." If suicide bombers were reported as anomalies rather than a form of "Islamic fanaticism," we'd have a totally different picture of Islam.

[Jed Dilligan]

32. I've always assumed that just about everyone wants to kill me

for one reason or another. Being treated as subhuman is just par for the course if you live in this country and don't have ample means.

[Cerridwen]

42. Dickensian America? Yes, I know it well.

"Are there no workhouses?...

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?' said Scrooge.

"Both very busy, sir."

"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."

...

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population...."

Yeah, I'm a member of the "surplus population" as well. As a matter of fact, I believe there are about 98% who are considered such by, oh, say the 2%.

[Gwendolyn]

36. First off, thanks for the links!!!

I'm a firm believer in "the greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated... I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man."

Cerridwen, I don't kid myself at all. We have only to look to our recent past to see that our own faith-based violence was more the norm than anomaly. And all brands of fundamentalism, Jewish, Christian and Islamic, are equally frightening, or at least, saddening, to me. The arranged marriages, the homogenous modesty-based dress costumes, the bigotry regarding other faiths... not one is better than another in that respect, and includes the Amish.

By the same token, most enlightened people have no problem admitting what terrible injustices our "Christian" society has wrought. I wouldn't bat an eye in admitting to any of my Jewish friends that yes, before the rapture people decided they were useful, we treated Jews in a reprehensible way. I have absolutely no qualms in voicing my opinion that Christian abortion clinic bombers are murdering, terrorist, fanatics. Why then should we mince words when some other fundamentalist faction behaves similarly? Why should anyone embrace the murder of a critic of Islam or the burning of a London publisher's home for printing a romance novel about Mohammed by refusing to name the culprits, as it might insult people? We do happen to be occupying a country illegally, but that isn't the fault of the average working slob Londoner who rode the wrong tube at the wrong time. We wouldn't hesitate to name these people if they were Christian or Jewish fanatics.

I disagree that people automatically assume the acts of some reflect the thoughts of all others who happen to share the same faith. Some do, but certainly not everyone.

[Cerridwen]

41. You're welcome. I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was

making a case for or against any one particular group of fanatics. I am not.

If anything, I question the "reporting" we get about instances of "suicide bombers." You'll notice, we rarely, if ever hear of followers of Islam helping each other and helping those harmed by the fanatics. It has given "us" (perhaps not you and I or other DUers, but many in the US) a twisted view of Islam and its followers. Just as if the reports of violence in the US which were done in the name of "christianity" were the only reports we received about Christians. Our media, for whatever reason, focuses on the most horrific acts perpetrated by the most fanatical. It's a lopsided view.

Imagine if every criminal act or act of violence in the US included the religion of the perpetrator. "Baptist man murders his wife and children - news at 11." "Jewish woman found guilty of extortion - later in this hour." "Episcopalian owned business found dumping toxic waste in river - but first, a word from our sponsor." "Atheist saves kitten! Southern Baptists astounded! (sorry, I couldn't resist)" Anyway, I think you get the idea.

Tying violent and criminal acts to a person's religion makes no more sense to me that tying their acts to their skin color. Yes, I know, many of the fanatics use {insert God name or religion here} as their justification for their actions. I wish the media would quit obliging them. Hell, perhaps if the media quit obliging them and started calling them cowardly wankers and made fun of them, they'd lose the "cachet" associated with their acts.

Imagine - "Yet another coward claiming virgins were waiting for him in heaven blew himself to bits today. Fortunately, no others were harmed as he suffered from premature set-off bomb. Medics on the scene were able to recover his 1" penis. Those virgins are going to be disappointed. Later in the day supporters of 1" penis guy were confronted with the penis and asked to drop their drawers and prove they were worth the virgins. When last seen, the supporters were frantically searching for rulers to prove their manhood. Rulers and manhood were in short supply. Witnesses at the scene were unable to respond to questions as they were laughing so hard they couldn't catch their breath. Next up - britney spears sings 'Whoops, I did it again.'"

Sorry, I went off on a tangent. Perhaps I made my point. Or not. I think we're on the same page; mine, as you can see, includes cartoons. LOL

[Gwendolyn]

43. Bwahahaha! Thank you for the late night laugh.

:rofl: We're on the same page! Too bad you don't write for my local paper. I'd def read you without fail.

I guess though, even if the details of terrorist criminals are kept from the public, people would still "know" who's killing whom. It isn't Jews bombing Planned Parenthood, and Christians aren't blowing up night clubs halfway round the world. And, I do have to say it fills me with pleasure every time the news explodes that so-and-so got caught with a male prostitute, or with his naughty bits hanging out for sexual purposes in a public men's room, and his status as some prominent fundie christian is repeated over... and over! :)

[Aristus]

38. Part of their faith, too. A moustache is considered adornment; a symbol of vanity.

A beard is a symbol of the covenant.

[Gwendolyn]

39. I know. But the faith aspect doesn't make the look any easier on the eye.

:D

[timtom]

27. I guess we first have to consider

WHAT terrorists?

We have absolutely no reliable clue as to the identity of the perpetrators.

Of the ones earmarked as the perps, at least five were found to be still alive after the tragedy. And, I believe, two more had died prior to the event.

[BlooInBloo]

28. It must be a joke.

[stillcool]

3. A holy war sounds so much

better than a war of aggression.

[baldguy]

5. "Any serious effort at transformation must occur within the larger framework of..."

"...U.S. national security strategy, military missions and defense budgets...

...the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

from REBUILDING AMERICA’S DEFENSES - Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century.
A Report of The Project for the New American Century September 2000, pp 62-63

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf


Look at the "Project Participants" on the last page and see if you recognize anybody.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

9. You Might, Sir, Look To Their Own Statements

Such as the will left by Atta.

And you could also consult public statements by bin Ladin, many dating to some years before the attacks in 2001, in which he makes the root of his intentions, and the purpose of his organization, quite clear.

[JackRiddler]

10. Atta's will...

was a generic document of the Hamburg mosque he was with, as revealed in Der Spiegel right after by Mzoudi, one of the guys later prosecuted (but not convicted) for being Atta's friend.

It was found with other documents containing all 19 of the names and a pilot's outfit plus extra weapons on two bags checked in at Portland that, we are told, did not make AA11.

Uh-huh.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

11. About Atta.

Was his body found and positively identified?

[question everything]

12. No. Most of the people who died in the attack were never

identified.

Of course, there were no bodies, only pulverized tissues and bone fragments, from which attempts were made to extract DNA samples and to compare these samples to ones taken from relatives. Still, most remained unidentified.

[The Magistrate]

14. Which Hardly Suffices, Sir, To Argue He Was Not Motivated In Part By Religious Conviction

"It is important to keep an open mind, but not to keep it so open that the brain falls out."

[question everything]

13. A year or two before the 9/11 highjacking, an Egyptial plane flying

from Los Angeles to Cairo crashed. There were some tapes from the cockpit indicating that the co-pilot was wrestling with the pilot to get control of the plane, while saying Allah Akbar (God is great). At the time, this story made no sense and the Egyptian airlines, the family of the co=pilot and the Egyptian government vehemently denied that the co-pilot would do such a thing.

After 9/11, all of a sudden this made a lot of sense.

[wildbilln864]

23. you sir, might address and...

consider this statement by OBL himself. :popcorn:
and in December of that year he was buried!

[question everything]

15. You don't need 9/11. Remember the suicde bombing of the Marines

barracks in Beirut, in 1983?

What about all the suicide bombing in Israel, with videos of them prepared ahead of time, saying how they are ready for martyrdom? (Never mind the 70 virgins in heavens).

Extreme Islam has shown itself to praise and to encourage martyrdom while taking as many lives of no-Muslims ("infidels") as possible.

The extreme branch of Islam has shown to promote terror in order to... bring back the glory of Islam from the 7th Century.

Al Qaeda branched from the Muslim Brotherhood that was formed in Egypt in the 50s. The irony is, it was founded by an Egyptian who visited the US and was outraged by the "hedonism" of American society, the behavior of American women. And we are talking the 50s! Similarly, in England, many children of immigrants from Pakistan are enraged, same way, about the "permissive" society that they see around them.

Their solution? Bomb and destroy such societies.


So, yes, war on terror is war on militant Islam.

[EFerrari]

17. If "Islam" wanted to kill us, we'd be dead by now.

Imho, it's a mistake to make this about an idea and not about a handful of criminals -- no matter what they claim.

We just dignify their criminality and we insult hundreds of millions of people all around the world.

Every criminal has a story.

[The Magistrate]

19. An Excellent Point, Ma'am

[question everything]

22. Please note that I referred to exteme brach of Islam

and, yes, this branch wants to kill us all. Thankfully, we have security forces that prevent them.

Reducing this problem to a "handful of criminals" will not allow us to look at the root of the problem and does nothing to prevent further attacks.

Would you say that the Iraqis who beheaded hostages in front of a camera are just a "handful of criminals?"

[EFerrari]

25. Really? We have the security forces for that? Why the hell have they taken so long

then? No, we have no such thing.

The "War on Terror" has nothing to do with defending us from violent extremists. It has much more to do with crony contracts, domestic power grabs and using the structures of our government to enrich a very few felons.

And the provenance of those beheaders (who disappeared just when we really go our war on) is disputed. Where did they go, in your opinion? Those scary guys just gave up and went away?


The biggest threat we face is from an out of control Republican Party which will stop short of nothing, nothing. They lied us into war, they made us a torture state, they're sacking the treasury, they've spied on us and even kidnapped us and held us without charge. They beat and arrest our journalists for doing their job.

That's the REAL War of Terror. It's being waged against US and against the little democracy we still enjoy here.

Blaming radicals in other countries has nothing to do with the biggest threats we face today. It's bullshit, a distraction and a pretext. There are always external threats. But only in movies are there powerful global conspiracies that Harrison Ford has to attend to.

[Dark]

16. Well, Al Qaeda, which funded and planned the attacks, calls on all muslims to join a jihad

against the west for having troops in Saudi Arabia, which they consider a sacrelige.

Among other things, of course.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

20. It's not what they said....it's what they did

I believe that Atta and the boys were hanging out at Islamic topless clubs in Florida before September 11th.

Or did I mis-remember that? :)

[wildbilln864]

24. and living with or next to FBI informants....

coincidently of course. :sarcasm:

and in December of that year he was buried!

[pokerfan]

31. Islamic?

Pink Pony - Known for its simple décor and good drinks, Pink Pony is located at 642 N Ridgewood Ave. Just make sure you dress up a little, as it’s not quite the frat bar you’re used to from college.

http://www.clubplanet.com/Venues/102443/Daytona-Beach/Pink-Pony

[dantyrant]

30. Read the work of Daniel Hopsicker.

He found a lot of interesting facts about Atta, interviewed his girlfriend, etc...

Lots of interesting tidbits about that so called Islamist. For example, what was Atta doing on Casino Jack Abramoff's boat?? Blows your mind.

Video: http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-6618076520601759159&hl=en&fs=true

[Sebastian Doyle]

33. And what was he doing flying South American coke smuggling missions with Jeb's CIA buddies

Moe Atta was on the Bush Crime Family payroll. And not just as an "Al Qaeda" temp hired by Osama.

[dantyrant]

34. Indeed. This al Qaeda story, as it's been told to us, has gotten tiresome

and it hasn't worn well. Peter Hitchens even wrote in the Daily Mail:

There is no such organisation as ‘Al Qaeda’. The spooks know this, Cabinet Ministers know this and so do the ‘security correspondents’ who so readily trot out the spooks’ point of view on our broadcasting networks.

Of course, there are terrorists, and there are also fantasists, fanatics, low-lifes and camp followers who plot and attempt horrible things. Some of them even call themselves ‘Al Qaeda’ these days because they have learned that this is a good way to scare us.

But, while they are a menace, they are not as big or as organised a menace as the Government likes to make out.

Former Home Secretary John Reid reeled out a boastful, alarmist statement about some arrests of alleged terrorists

The State and the vainglorious bureaucrats of the ‘security’ services need to pretend that the terrorists are a tightly organised and terrifying threat, to make themselves look big as well – and to help them get hold of new powers to snoop on us and push us around.

Some of you may remember the rather squalid behaviour, back in the summer of 2006, by the then Home Secretary, the unrepentant ex-communist brute John Reid.

Lightly tossing aside the wise tradition that in free countries Ministers stay out of criminal justice matters, he reeled out a boastful, alarmist statement about some arrests of alleged terrorists, using words so preju-dicial that I will not reproduce them here.

When, two years later, a jury was unconvinced by many of the claims made by the authorities in this case, the same nastiness re-emerged in a different way.

Tame commentators were briefed to hint – baselessly – that the jury were stupid, inattentive or lazy, or even to blame the Americans for forcing our police to act before they were ready.

What is all this about? Remember, the authorities were tailing the alleged plotters from April to August. They had filmed them, recorded their conversations, searched their homes. If a real attempt had been made by the alleged plotters to blow up any planes, the police would have been able to prevent it.

But I suspect that someone, somewhere, wasn’t happy with that. What was wanted was not just the prevention of a potential outrage through diligent surveillance.

What was wanted was a nice big propaganda success, after which we would face another call for detention without trial, compulsory identity cards, and all the rest of the 1984 rubbish this Government wishes to impose on us.

[Pastiche423]

35. Uh, the "terrorists" din't say a thing

(Remember they are supposed to be dead.)

It was our lovely and wonderful government that made that crap up.

[treestar]

37. I don't think it was purely religious - mostly political. They weren't

attacking us for not being Muslim in the religious sense, but for being Western and politically against or interfering with what they perceived to be Arabic political interests (not that the majority of Arabs agreed with them at all - just what these few nuts thought).

[wildbilln864]

40. And don't forget about....

Operation Able Danger!
:hi: