Is Chavez a Dictator?

[Rage for Order]

From AP:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070124/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_opposition_2

President Hugo Chavez's political mentor — who once persuaded the fiery leader to seek power through elections after he led a failed coup — now says the regime has "all the characteristics of a dictatorial government."

snip

"This is a government with a hypocritical authoritarianism that tries to sell the world certain democratic appearances," said the 87-year-old Luis Miquilena, who has maintained a low profile since resigning from Chavez's government in early 2002. The government is not abiding by any rule. It has all the characteristics of a dictatorial government," Miquilena told reporters during a ceremony at the newspaper El Nacional, which is highly critical of the government."

Miquilena said he sees a clear effort to "centralize power." A former communist and pioneer of Venezuela's labor movement, Miquilena was a close collaborator who helped Chavez after he led a failed coup in 1992 against then-President Carlos Andres Perez. Miquilena provided financial support to Chavez's family while he was in prison for the two years after the coup attempt and convinced the former paratrooper once he was released to seek the presidency through elections.

Miquilena helped Chavez found the Fifth Republic Movement and formed alliances with other parties. As Chavez's interior minister in 1999, Miquilena earned the reputation as a conciliator between Chavez's fiery rhetoric and the nervous opposition. But he left the government in 2002 after quarreling with Chavez and denouncing his "autocratic style."

More at the link....

This should be interesting :popcorn:


<edit to add first name and header>

[Psephos]

1. Heh heh...this'll be better than the SuperBowl halftime show n/t

[Rage for Order]

4. You would think so

Most people seem to feel very strongly about him, in either a good or a bad way. I find that interesting. I don't care one way or the other, as I don't live in Venezuela and his policies don't affect me.

[me b zola]

8. So your intent is to put on a flame-throwing event?

:thumbsdown:

[dogday]

16. Let me just pull up a seat and I brought some extra

popcorn

[lvx35]

2. Sounds like good critique.

Especially the bit complaining about "21st century socialism" not based on theory. I would love to see a real theory of 21st century socialism emerge, that would interest me greatly. I wouldn't expect it from Chavez though.

[Rage for Order]

3. Well, then there's the meddling of the US from today

President Hugo Chavez warned Thursday that the U.S. ambassador could be asked to leave the country if he continues "meddling in Venezuela's affairs." The outspoken Venezuelan leader lashed out after William Brownfield said U.S. companies and investors must receive a fair price for their shares of Venezuela's largest telephone company when Chavez's government nationalizes it.

"If you continue meddling in Venezuela's affairs, first of all, you are violating the Geneva agreements and getting yourself involved in a serious violation and could ... be declared a persona non grata and would have to leave the country," Chavez.

The top American envoy to Venezuela told Caracas' Union Radio the planned takeover of CA Nacional de Telefonos, or CANTV, should proceed "in a transparent, legal manner" and that Venezuela's government must offer "fair and quick compensation to the people who are affected or the owners. "These are the only obligations that a government has when it decides to nationalize an industry," Brownfield added.

Brownfield said he was optimistic that shareholders would be fairly compensated. "I think it can be a process that concludes in a satisfactory manner for all those involved, that's my hope," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070126/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_us

Discussion in Latest Breaking News:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2703926

I'm not sure why asking for US investors to be paid a fair market price in a legal, transparent manner is considered "meddling". That's an interesting use of the word.

[lvx35]

6. Yeah, its a hazy line when it comes to

...obligations to investors when a country is nationalizing something...But history is very clear that it pisses people off. It was exactly this that prompted the Chilean coupe of 1973. I hope the US doesn't do anything that dumb, but I also hope Chavezz plays fair.

[rockymountaindem]

5. He's just a disgruntled member of the elite!

What, no? Then he's an embittered right-winger! He's not? Oh, then this Miquilena fellow must have been taken out of context... that's it. Yes, selectively quoted. There's a perfectly reasonable explanation for this that doesn't involve Chavez actually acting in a dictatorial manner, right? :sarcasm:

[1932]

7. Miquilena is a communist and the communist party has love-hate relationship

with Chavez. Sometimes they like him. Sometimes they hate him. There have been so many different parties with different ideologies on the left, and they have vied for control over the prevailing ideology of the government. Miquilena isn't the first person who participated in the coalition that forms Chavez's government who later crticized it bitterly after the government doesn't adopt that person's ideology.

Richard Gott's book Chavez has several examples of this.

[Raydawg1234]

9. Dictator? I dont know, but something tells me Chaves isn't about to give up power any time soon

[JCMach1]

10. He is facing the dilemma that Lenin faced... Once you start changing the system

the enemies come out of the woodwork.

The big question is what do you do about it?

The book is still out on Chavez.

[Solo_in_MD]

11. Looks like a ducl, quacks like a duck...

[tkmorris]

13. You appear to be wearing duck-colored glasses nt

[tom_paine]

12. I think he's even closer than Bush is to being dictator here

Bush held the lead for quite awhile, but recent Chavez moves and a Venezuelan Congress that makes the 109th look like the Founding Dads (not to mention his coercive slave labor program aborning) pulls him WAAAAAAY in the lead.

That's just my opinion, of course.

[Swamp Rat]

14. Though, Bushler has KILLED a lot more people.

[tom_paine]

15. That is correct. Little Boots Bushler is indeed a more prolific murderer

However, I wonder if it is simply a matter of scope, power, and opportunity.

If Chavez had a supine US Government and our tremendous military might, would his quest to socialize the nation turn violent. Would he go all Soviet and attack some country for falsified reasons, as Little Boots did?

Maybe.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. No.

A dictator is somebody who rules through absolute power.

Chavez's only power is what's granted to him by the Venezuelan people.

[Lord Byron]

18. Yes. He's a dictator

Democratically elected, but governs by decree. He also has the government firmly under the control and influence of the MVR (his party).

He's still a dictator.

[Judi Lynn]

19. "He has the government firmly under the control, etc.?"

Or is it more likely, of course, that the people of Venezuela, minus the oligarchy, which boycotted the last election, knowing it would lose wildly, have elected the Congressmen they wanted to represent them, as well as the President who is ALWAYS subject to recall, and serves at the pleasure of the people?

[Lord Byron]

20. Look

Dictatorships usually have the appearance of legitimacy. Saddam Hussein had elections. He had massive electoral support.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but Chavez made voters register their fingerprints at the polls. Now if I were Venezuelan, and I feared the country might turn into a dictatorship, I wouldn't want to be on Chavez's blacklist. That's scary.

[Judi Lynn]

21. I've never read on the fingerprint issue. Here's the first article which came up

in my search a moment ago:

US Works to Delegitimize Venezuela's December Presidential Election
by Chuck Kaufman
October 28, 2006

~snip~
Another issue raised by some in the opposition is requiring a voter to be fingerprinted and matched to a national database to insure against multiple voting. In 2005 the opposition complained that it would be possible to match a person's vote to their fingerprint. Voting machines and fingerprint machines have no physical or electronic connection making that charge impossible but the CNE decided not to use fingerprinting in 2005. Petkoff said, "I'm certain that it is impossible to identify a person's vote, but both sides had agreed not to use it."

Sumate is the most adamant against the fingerprint machines. They want the use of indelible ink to prevent multiple voting, although Ricardo Estevez, a founding member of Sumate also claimed it is a common practice for the ink to "run out, be knocked over, or just not be there." The many years of electoral fraud by Accion Democratica and Copei have raised the level of electoral distrust in Venezuela higher than it is in most other countries.

The Rosales campaign has not made an issue of the fingerprinting plan. In a televised speech during the delegation's visit to Venezuela we heard him say, "People in the Missions and the government agencies will tell you not to vote because the fingerprint will identify you. Don't believe them. It's not true."
(snip)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11282

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~2nd entry:

Venezuelan parliamentary election, 2005
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

~snip~
Secrecy of the votes
Just weeks before the elections, an audit was made in presence of the National Electoral Council (CNE), OAS international observers and several political parties. During the audit, the opposition started claiming that the electoral machines recorded the sequence of the votes, while fingerprint scanners recorded the information of each voter. However, though the fingerprint scanners were altogether not connected to and in different places than the voting machines, and the lines of voters at each of the machine groups were totally unrelated, the opposition put forward the case that it was possible to unscramble the information, stating that cross-matching the data between the two machines could potentially show the voting details of those who voted. The reconstruction of this data is considered possible by some characters, allegedly due to the requirement of access to the voting machines and knowledge of the password. As an extra measure of reassurance, the CNE agreed to format the data held on the voting machines as soon as these finished transmitting their precinct totals to the CNE. As long as every voting machine also printed its precinct totals, it was easy for all involved parties to check the validity of the data as reported in both instances, the printed precinct totals and the partial results reported in the CNE tallying center. <1><2>

A few days later, on 29 November, The CNE agreed to remove the fingerprint scanners in order not to discourage potential voters but stands by its claim that the fingerprint scanners are not usable to identify the votes. The same devices were used on the 2004 recall referendum, and the state governors' elections that same year. <3>
(snip)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_parliamentary_election,_2005

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you don't mind my saying so, I'm not too sure what you're talking about.....

Care to elaborate? Everything I've seen so far indicates they wish to keep people from voting more than once. I'm not too sure that's a bad idea. :eyes:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Third entry:

This is the html version of the file http://www.biometrics.org/bc2005/Bios/Briefs%20Bio_TuesAM.pdf.
G o o g l e automatically generates html versions of documents as we crawl the web.
To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:GB_WUOycPboJ:www.biometrics.org/bc2005/Bios/Briefs%2520Bio_TuesAM.pdf+Venezuela+%2B+election+%2B+fingerprints&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3


Google is neither affiliated with the authors of this page nor responsible for its content.
These search terms have been highlighted: venezuela election fingerprints

Page 1
Biometric Consortium 2005 Conference Wally Briefs
Senior Vice President
Cogent Systems Inc. 209 Fair Oaks Av South Pasadena, CA 91030
Phone: [phone]. [e-mail]
Topic: Venezuela Election - Fingerprints = "One Voter - One Vote"

Abstract:The Automated Fingerprint Identification and Voter Authentication System (SAV, Sistema Autenticacion de Votantes) was utilized during the Venezuela referendum and electoral procedures on August 15, 2004 and is intended for use in future elections, both local and National. The systemguarantees "One Voter - One Vote".

The project was contracted for 41 days prior to the election. During this short time, Cogent Systems, Inc. procured the equipment for Authentication stations, for a Central Site fingerprint matching system, provided customized software, configured hardware, trained operators and technicians, and distributed the stations throughout the country and was ready for the election.

The system was designed and delivered to handle One Million persons per Hour against a database of 10 Million voters. Over a period of ten hours, 5.5 Million peoples fingerprints were captured, processed, transmitted and searched. The average search time was 3 seconds.

To deliver this system in less than 41 days, Cogent established a Central Service Center in Caracas, Venezuela, hired and trained 90 technicians, created production lines and procured 12,000 IBM laptops that were configured at the service center, a single fingerprint scanner was installed, and the laptops were configured, tested, repackaged, distributed and installed and tested in 2,990 voting stations throughout the country by 500 Cogent trained technicians in three days. Cogent trained 500 “Train the Trainers” who in turned trained 16,000 operators to operate the Authentication Stations and perform the fingerprint capture and transmission and receive the results in less than 30 seconds.

Biography: Wally Briefs joined Cogent in April 1996. He currently serves as Senior Vice President, International and supports all new business activity from a strategic and client management perspective. Mr. Briefs responsibilities include business development, and marketing and sales. Prior to joining Cogent, Mr. Briefs served as a consultant to Cogent from January 1990 to April 1996. FromNovember 1966 through April 1996, Mr. Briefs served as a law enforcement official for several agencies, including the New York City Police Department. Mr. Briefs has over thirty-eight years experience in the identification of finger and palm prints, law enforcement, and crime scene investigation and over sixteen years experience in automated palm and fingerprint identification systems including design, procurement and management of local, state, and federal AFIS programs.
(snip/)

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:GB_WUOycPboJ:www.biometrics.org/bc2005/Bios/Briefs%2520Bio_TuesAM.pdf+Venezuela+%2B+election+%2B+fingerprints&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

[Lord Byron]

22. I think the fact that I was wrong might validate my point

I try to be well-read on politics and voting. Nevertheless, the fact that there were fingerprinting machines used made me think that the votes could be traced to the fingerprints. Maybe this is not so. In Venezuela, a good portion of the populace does not have internet access. They wouldn't be able to read. The mention of fingerprinting would intimidate an individual and make him more likely to vote for Chavez WHETHER OR NOT the votes are actually traced. Am I making sense?

[Judi Lynn]

23. Maybe you're not giving them enough credit! It may be easy to attribute

more ignorance to them than they deserve....

By the way, they are working hard to overcome all traces of illiteracy. From what I've read, they've been commended by large organizations on their efforts already, I think from UNESCO, very likely.

Any ignorance among most of the poor is thrust upon them by their circumstances, can be overcome by their own effort and guidance, and opportunity, when possible. Wilful ignorance, however, as in stubborn refusal to maintain an open mind is malignant.

Right-wing people and their narrow overfocus are wildly malignant. You'll hear a whole lot of absolute drool from them before you'll ever hear a whisper of the truth. Any story which reinforces their spoon fed propaganda sounds good to them.

If you're getting your information from right-wing sources, consider yourself in the hole, and you'll have to get yourself out by reading, and thinking for yourself.

[sufrommich]

24. He rules by decree.He's a dictator. nt

[Judi Lynn]

25. He is subject to recall, just as he was recently, when a U.S.-supported

opposition group organized and demanded a recall and got it, and their recall attempt failed.

He would be called the ELECTED PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA.

The special powers he was given are temporary, have an expiration date, and have been used by other Venezuela Presidents, who were not labeled "dictators" as they were regarded fondly by the U.S. since they were more than happy to bend over for U.S. interests, which is the WRONG thing to do for their country.

[KittyWampus]

26. And Bush was subject to impeachment for the last 6 years. If the GOP had kept

control of Congress would Bush be less a dictator just because Congress wouldn't impeach him?

I refuse to argue about Chavez.

Just making a simple point.

[Judi Lynn]

28. The information published last week said the term is for 18 months or something.

Don't recall. Could be shorter, just didn't pay too much attention, as I read it hurredly.

AS I said, the same powers were used by previous Venezeulan Presidents. This is not an anomoly in Venezuela, so it doesn't get any special right-wing spin value, as it has been falsely represented.

The recall thing is part of the new Venezuelan constitution. It offers that opportunity freely TO THE GENERAL POPULATION. It's not something which has to go through the process in the Congress. After you take the time to think, you'll recognize there's a difference.

Sure wish these right-wing idiots had paid this much attention to the fool who stole their own White House and killed so many Americans and slaughtered helpless Iraqiis who had NO WHERE to hide.

[sufrommich]

27. We'll see if they are temporary.

I did not make any distinction between him and any other Venezualan president.If they ruled by decree,then they too were dictators.Would you be O.K. with a U.S. president holding the same power?

[Judi Lynn]

29. You need to know what you're discussing. Take time out to get informed. n/t

[sufrommich]

30. What an incredibly pompous post..nt