I'm A Guy, And Anti-Abortion

[Prophet 451]

I wish we had 100% effective contraception. And I wish someone was interested in finding some.

I wish we had comprehensive sex education and high human intelligence so people would actually fucking use contraception.

I wish no woman was ever raped, or abused, or even coerced into sex. When I was a child, I was sexually abused by my foster uncle. It screwed me up for a while and it made me unsure about my sexuality for even longer but I'm a guy, I never had to think that I might be pregnant, I never had to deal with that decision and, with Lucifer as my witness, I cannot fault those who do have to make that decision. I wish sex was only ever a way to show love or affection or even just to have a good time and never used as a weapon.

I wish no woman ever had to choose between her health and her baby. I can't even imagine what that's like, weighing the baby you want against your own health, even your own life and I can't judge those who have to make that choice.

I wish every kid was born into a family that loved him, that protected him and had time to spend with him. I wish everybody that wanted a child could afford to care for one.

I'm anti-abortion. I think most people are. I've only ever met one person who was pro-abortion and he's in a secure unit until the doctors work out how to put his mind back together. No-one sane likes abortion, no-one celebrates it. I think most of us are anti-abortion but I also think most of us regard it as a necessary evil. We live in an imperfect world. I wish we didn't but we do. I wish that abortion didn't exist because it didn't need to exist but, for all the reasons I listed above and other besides, abortion exists and it needs to exist. It's not an ideal, it's not even close but it is, in an imperfect world, the best we can do right now.

Anyway, I just felt the need to say that.

[prayin4rain]

1. yep pro-choice is not-pro-abortion... that's ridiculous n/t

[jhrobbins]

48. Exactly, but try splainin that to the Palins of the world.

[Winterblues]

123. But "Pro-Life" is really just Anti-Abortion

Otherwise they would be against the Death Penalty, and War, and Tobacco sales, and Guns, and and and....But the truth is they are just anti-choice...

[Lorentz]

172. That's exactly what it is. You just need to re-define what pro-abortion means.

Pro-abortion, in my book, means that you will consciously allow abortion as an option if it is needed. Nothing more diabolical than that. It doesn't mean you want to kill babies. Only the right-wing thinks that way (and apparently many one-dimensional DUers).

[prayin4rain]

198. well that is not what "pro-abortion" means in "my book"

I think that choice is a wonderful and beautiful thing that is why I am pro-choice. I think abortion is necessary and sometimes a good thing, but not wonderful or beautiful and I am neutral-abortion at best. But I am pro women having that option available to them. And I don't need a lecture on being progressive or not liberal enough because I am not "pro-abortion" and I don't need to re-define anything.

Take it up with one dimensional Obama as he said he does not think ANYBODY is pro-abortion...guess he was wrong.
"Those are all things that we put in the Democratic platform for the first time this year, and I think that's where we can find some common ground, because nobody's pro-abortion. I think it's always a tragic situation." Obama at last night's debate

[Lorentz]

210. Obama is wrong. Being "pro-abortion" is radioactive and political suicide.

Of course he's going to be "against pro-abortion". He doesn't want to piss off the masses. As for "your book," it is written from this same biased view. There's a social stigma attached to it. But, it doesn't change the fact that if you are not anti-abortion, you are pro-abortion. That's the way it is. Tough luck if it hurts your sense of self, and you try to justify how you're only "partially" pro-abortion when it suits the situation.

That's, ironically, like being "partially pregnant".

[prayin4rain]

216. I'm not partially pro-abortion

I am one hundred percent not pro-abortion. You seem to lack the intellectualism necessary to comprehend that not everything is black and white. This is not a black and white issue where the only options are yeah abortions or boo abortions. There are many many issues surrounding the abortion debates. Even when it suits the situation I am STILL not pro abortion, I am pro a woman having the right to decide what to do with her own body. I am pro not allowing the state to commandeer a woman's body for 9 months. I get that you are pro abortion and the only scenario you can imagine is pro abortion and therefore pro choice or anti abortion and pro life. I don't agree that it is that simple and I do not agree with you that the only reason Obama says that he does not believe that anyone is pro abortion is because of politics. It's just that people who do not live in a black and white world sometimes forget that lots of people do.

[LynnTheDem]

2. I am anti-abortion and pro-choice.

While that's something republicans can't understand (they can't walk and chew gum at the same time, either), most sentient beings can.

[JerseygirlCT]

110. Me too. nt

[Kber]

156. Nor can they campaign and screw up and economic rescue package at the same time

But you can't fix stupid.

[Muttocracy]

3. I am woman and I can relate to a lot of that. I'm still waiting for anti-choice activists

to come out with their plan to stop rape and abuse.

I can be pretty sure to avoid needing an abortion via my personal behavior BUT if my rights and body are ever violated in a rape, I'll be damned if I have to carry a pregnancy from it or prove it in a court of law before I can have an abortion.

[redqueen]

5. You mean the anti-CHOICE activists. (nt)

[Muttocracy]

8. yes, corrected that and a typo, thanks. nt

[pink-o]

119. I'm also waiting for them to fix foster care, and make sure no child is ever raised in an orphanage.

I hope, like me, you're not holding your breath for those hypocrites to care for BREATHING children in their so-called culture of life!

[Muttocracy]

122. yeah, waiting like every few years

anything changed? nope? figured not...

[Prophet 451]

127. That would be nice

My grandmother ran an orphanage for disabled and disturbed kids late in her life and she told me some fairly hair-raising stories about what it was like when she first arrived there.

[pink-o]

120. Sorry. Dupe.

[stopbush]

4. There's no such thing as pro-abortion. There is pro women's rights.

One can be anti-war and pro-troops.

[qwlauren35]

185. Yes, a "pro-abortion" position exists.

The right to abort a fetus is only one in a collective of rights that women need.

I fervently believe in women's rights, and our right to choose MANY things!

But I'm not afraid to say that women should have the right to choose abortion.

Abortion is not a dirty word. It's polarizing, but it's not dirty.

To be "pro-choice", in many ways, is a relatively recent, compromise position. When I was coming up, the "choice" to raise the child as a single parent was NOT on the table. It amuses me that we have this new generation of girls and women who fight for the "right" to be single parents, as early as 13 or 16 years old. I can respect a woman in her 30's who says "now or never", and starts a family as a single parent, with a lot of planning and forethought.

But to choose single parenthood while living with your own parents... for starters, I consider that grossly selfish and manipulative. Does a girl have the right to assume that her parents will have her back??? I don't think so.

There are many ways to look at this. But as far as I'm concerned, abortion is a way of taking care of a crisis, and I support it 100%. Bringing an unplanned child into the world, without resources, and expecting everyone around you to just help out so that you can be a "single parent" is ridiculously selfish, and I am pissed beyond belief that we have moved in this direction, just to appease the "pro-life" movement.

[JohnMcCant2008]

6. I'm pro-choice.

My wife says nobody can legislate her body.

And since she owns all the fun parts, I agree with her.

:woohoo:

[LynnTheDem]

18. LOL!!!

:D

[CPschem]

7. Conservative brains can not comprehend shades of gray

They really think that pro-choice = pro-abortion. They can not get their brains around the fact that pro-choice people want abortion to be as rare as possible.

Just as importantly, they do not understand that their own policies INCREASE the number of abortions occurring in this country. Lack of comprehensive sex-ed and access to contraceptives will increase the number of women seeking abortion.

The conservative brain is frustrating in its dysfunction.

[Barb in Atl]

152. I disagree.

I think republicans have found the most attention-grabbing words that are sure to have the most negative connotations and scream it from daybreak to midnight. They do it because they want to determine the course of our rights, our lives, women's bodies especially.

And then they screw around on their spouses, turn out to be virulently hypocritical, make sure their family / friends / flings that need abortions get them...

...and then terrorize the 17 year old that doesn't want to be a mother yet going to Planned Parenthood for birth control.

They understand. They don't care. Do what they say or you're not <fill in the blank> enough.

[notadmblnd]

9. of course no one is pro abortion. You've bought into the RW talking point

What people are is pro choice and anti choice. The people that worry themselves into cold sweats for the unborn have shown time and time again that they have no regard for human life once it is born. Allowing these children to live in poverty, death sentences for minors, wars, corporate exploitation of humans, etc. have proven that over and over.

Yeah, it would be very nice if we all lived in a perfect world, but the powers that be will never allow that to happen. Why? Because there's no money in it. And if men were the responsible human beings that they should be, the would be stepping up to the plate and taking care of those children that are the result of a few moments of lust; instead of walking away, no woman would ever need to have an abortion.

[Prophet 451]

21. You kinda missed my point, that's what I was saying n/t

[Pastiche423]

164. That is NOT what you said

You used the right wing talking point - anti-abortion. Just like the fundies command.

I have had an abortion and have felt no guilt or any other negative feeling because of it, only relief. I am proud that I had the sense to do what was right for me. Living in an orphange taught me well. My heart would ache for the younger children on the Board of Regents day. (That's what it was called, but it meant people coming to maybe adopt one of my brothers or sisters.) No one ever was adopted - we were all too old.


Oh and, in case you were unaware, our earth can only sustain a finite amount of people and we are rapidly approaching that number.

[Prophet 451]

168. I am very aware of that

Yes, I used the term anti-abortion. Did you understand what I wrote? There is a difference between being anti-abortion because you are opposed to the reasons abortion is necessary (which i am) and being anti-abortion because you'd like to see it banned (which I am not). Respond to what I actually said (which was a defence of legal abortion), not what you think I said.

[Pastiche423]

179. In your title, you used the rw talking point

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BEING PRO-ABORTION!

Get it?

[qwlauren35]

187. YES THERE IS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lawdamercy. This is absurd.

[Pastiche423]

189. WTF are you yammering about?

[qwlauren35]

188. YES THERE IS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lawdamercy. This is absurd.

Example #1 - China. It's not about "choice" over there.

[varkam]

303. Context, my friend. eom

[Heathen57]

50. They're not just "anti-choice"

The people that worry themselves into cold sweats for the unborn have shown time and time again that they have no regard for human life once it is born. Allowing these children to live in poverty, death sentences for minors, wars, corporate exploitation of humans, etc. have proven that over and over.

I have taken to calling these types "Pro-Fetus" because they have no use for the child once it is born. Combined with their hate of contraception of any kind (except NFP) and you have someone who is not just anti-choice, they are anti-sex with the exception of what they consider 'proper'. No sex before marriage, no sex unless it has a chance of conception, etc.

It is about controlling the sex drive of a person, especially women. When you can do that, you have control of one of the basic human needs. It's about power.

[qwlauren35]

186. Once again, speak for your self.

YES, we "pro-abortion" people exist.

[notadmblnd]

227. Really? You actaully want to have an abortion?

You actually advocate other people having them? Because I can tell you, that I have exercised my right to choose in the past. It was a very difficult decision and a most unpleasant procedure. And there's is no way in hell that I would want to be in the position where I would need to make that choice again.

[underseasurveyor]

241. The decision isn't difficult for everyone

I'm sorry it was for you, really:hug: Every case is as personal and individual as the person making that choice. Now I could sit here and say or project onto you how ridiculous it was for you to feel that the decision was difficult just because it wasn't for me. Once the appointment was made I looked forward to that day. But that wouldn't be fair to you now would it. Just as it is unfair for you to imply that abortion would be difficult for every woman.

My point is that it's not always difficult and yes the procedure was unpleasant but so are the yearly exams, colonoscopy and mammograms.

[fudge stripe cookays]

317. That was your experience.

I had an abortion, and then I had a pregnancy I chose to keep, which led to a miscarriage. Of the two, the miscarriage was infinitely more painful and awful.

If I had to choose again, I'd pick abortion, hands down. Thank God I'm past that stage now. My partner has had a vasectomy, and I'm on the pill to control endometriosis. Even if I'm raped, there's little chance I'd become pregnant. But I would DEFINITELY end it of my own volition, and not "God's".

[underseasurveyor]

10. You know there isn't always this over-the-top-trauma-drama with every abortion

Having had two I can honestly say I have no regrets, no agony of guilt, or any other negative trauma (beit real or perceived) because I chose to end 2 unwanted pregnancies.

I think the more we feed into this notion that abortion is always traumatic for a woman the harder it's going to be to keep abortion available = legal, as a choice.

Abortions are not bad, good or evil... they just are. Abortion is a choice and should remain so.

[Mandate My Ass]

12. Thank you

I am unequivocally pro-choice, without any of the hand wringing about the chould-have-beens or should-have-beens by people not remotely involved in the process.

[hamsterjill]

107. Very well said!

For many woman, it is merely a medical procedure. And should be a private matter between her and her medical professional.

[fudge stripe cookays]

163. Heartily agreed.

I've had one, and one miscarriage. Both from failed birth control.

I drove past a bunch of idiots protesting the other day, and one had one of those signs: "Abortion Hurts Women."

Who, assholes? Whom does it hurt? Don't impose your damned values on ME! I was barely making $22,000 a year at the time, was drowning in credit card debt I was trying to pay off, and had just gotten back to school for the first time in 8 years.

It didn't hurt me a damned bit. I was free to finally finish my education. I am now the main breadwinner for my husband and I, and we have had a good life together. He probably would not be my husband if I'd had a child, because he wasn't looking for someone with a kid. Without that degree, I would not be pulling in the $58,000 a year that I make. It is the only thing that has kept our heads above water in this economy. And I JUST managed to get employed with some experience under my belt before Bush got in and fucked things up for everybody.

If I'd given birth, I'd now be a single, under-employed mom of a 13 year old and I'd be pretty desperate. I'd be miserable. But according to the anti-choicers, I'm selfish and I'm psychologically damaged from this experience.

Well you know what? I'm not, and I like my life. Fuck them.

[Extend a Hand]

182. The OVERWHELMING reaction

of women who have had an abortion is

RELIEF

abortion is not an evil, necessary or otherwise. Spontaneous abortion occurs in 15-20% of all pregnancies. Why would something that happens in as many as 1/5 of all pregnancies be "evil" when it is induced and not when it occurs randomly? I really don't get it.


OOPS I agree with you...I really meant to reply to the original poster-- sorry about that.

[underseasurveyor]

191. Never the less.. good answer

whether your reply was to me or the OP. I was very relieved.. twice.

[Prophet 451]

193. Not again

OK, the word "evil" was a poor choice on my part, it wasn't meant to imply a moral judgement. The article is defending the necessity of legal abortion, not condemning it.

[Extend a Hand]

199. I read most of the replies after posting a response...

and I see that you have since clarified what you meant BUT it still doesn't seem like you "get" why your post offended so many here. So I'll jump into the fray and give it a shot (as politely as I can).

When a woman chooses to end a pregnancy, she is not choosing between her health (or her well being) and a BABY. THERE IS NO BABY. That woman is making a life decision, much like she does when she decides to get married, divorced, or to intentionally get pregnant. A She's deciding what she wants to do with her life. There is only a BABY if the pregnancy is allowed to continue to term.

edited for spelling.

[underseasurveyor]

200. Perfect.. That's it!

Yes, Absolutely!

[Extend a Hand]

203. Thanks. I hope that Prophet 451

understands what I'm trying to say. It seems like he is still trying to work out his feelings about abortion.

[underseasurveyor]

205. I think Prophet is gettin' it

Sometimes it takes a well thought, very well said, and in a simply put way, the way you just did, to really bring it to a greater 'understanding' if you will.

I :applause: you, for you even helped clarify (to.. more simply put) it better for me.

[Prophet 451]

278. I need to clarify again

I used the term "baby" in the OP only in one circumstance and that's where a woman has to choose between her health and her pregnancy so I was defining "baby" as a wanted pregnancy because in my experiance, when a woman is intending to carry the pregnancy to term, she refers to the z/e/f as a "baby". With some distance from it, I can see how that could have been confusing to a reader but that's what I meant.

[DangerDave921]

258. very weird logic

You seem to be saying that because abortion occurs naturally, then it cannot be evil when done intentionally. That doesn't make any sense at all. Think about a live human being rather than a fetus. Every human being will eventually die of natural causes or an accident. That's not evil. But does that mean intentionally taking a person's life isn't evil?

It would be like a murderer saying, "Hey, people die all the time naturally. Why is it evil that I killed 10 more of them?"

[Extend a Hand]

300. oh good f*cking grief

:eyes:

You know perfectly well that that is a false analogy. That murderer is killing another person, not removing cells in his own body.

If an induced abortion is "evil" and a spontaneous abortion is an accident, then jerking off is "evil" but a wet dream is A-okay.

[DangerDave921]

313. your logic, not mine

You said that if something happens in nature, then it can't be evil. I was just applying your logic to another example. Maybe you need a better thought process to argue.

[Extend a Hand]

316. bullshit

[DangerDave921]

321. LOL

Why is it some people resort to cussing in an argument? To me, there is no clearer signal that that person has no legitimate argument in rebuttal. So he/she resorts to cussing and name-calling.

[Extend a Hand]

326. yawn

in this case it's just an expression of disgust at your sad little logical fallicies

[DangerDave921]

327. LOL Part Deux

That's the other favored tactic from someone who has lost an argument -- to feign lack of interest and boredom in the discussion. If I can't argue with you, I'll just pretend I don't care anymore. I am so above it all.

:)

[Scout]

328. perhaps they just believe, as i do:

"Argue with a FOOL, he does the same."

so why waste time, eh?

[Codeine]

208. Bravo!

About God-damned time somebody said it; an abortion is a fucking medical procedure, not a Lifetime Movie of the Week.

[underseasurveyor]

213. Well said yourself

"lifetime Movie of the Week" heh:thumbsup: :applause: bravo on you too

[Kajsa]

307. "Lifetime Movie of the Week."?

(same response applies here)

as someone who found it very gut wrenching and difficult,
knowing I'm not alone here,

I found your comment minimizing the emotions very offensive and tactless.

[Solly Mack]

234. I agree

[Kajsa]

306. "over-the-top-trauma-drama"?

as someone who found it very gut wrenching and difficult,
knowing I'm not alone here,

I found your comment minimizing the emotions very offensive and tactless.

[ismnotwasm]

11. A woman risks her health

With every pregnancy. Women also, at this point in our technology are the only ones who can carry a fetus to term. It's a gross violation of human rights to force a continued pregnancy on anyone.

No, nobody "celebrates" abortion, but some women do feel profound relief--I did. They shouldn't be taken to task for normal emotions, whether it's grieving or thank God it's over. I don't feel it's an "evil", as you do, and one of the problems with the so called abortion debate is the framing of it.

So Obama is right. Lets work together on comprehensive sex education, including birth control, pregnancy options, pre and postnatal care. Let us have a woman and child positive economy, so women who need to work can have safe and affordable daycares and make an equal and living wage. Let us stop over sexualizing our young girls and women, so they can recognize real sexual choices in a natural and guilt free way. Let men understand every ejaculate with a fertile woman has the possibility of pregnancy, and let those same men understand the risks and choices women face in a supportive and respectful manner, without trying to legislate or moralize what those choices should be.

Let women who take a forced birth position examine the mote in their own eye, and understand that it's an individual choice and stop projecting their own fears and prejudices on other women.

I'm a grandmother by that particular choice BTW, my grandson is the light of my life, and given the same circumstances, if it had been me at the time instead of my daughter, I would have made a different choice.

Let's work together to reduce the number of abortions without agonizing over the actual procedure, by remembering it's a woman's choice, and a woman's choice alone. Understanding choice, especially to some who work so hard to understand is one of the most respectful things we can do.

[Prophet 451]

22. I'm sure some do feel relief over it

I'm sorry, the "necessary evil" comment wasn't meant to imply that abortion was evil. I just meant it's an undesireable but necessary option. The use of the word "evil" was clumsy phrasing on my part.

[ismnotwasm]

38. I understand

Abortion is a medical procedure, and quite frankly, I don't want to have ANY medical procedures I don't have to. I'm a nurse and see poor outcomes of all types of surgeries and procedures. Prevention is always best. And that's something we can agree on I'm sure.

It's Another reason the rw talking points are so obnoxious, and why Obama, other than certain phrasing on "late term abortions"-(According to rightwing nuts,everyday there are women somewhere who wake up at 8 months and say, fuck it, I'm sick of this shit. I'm getting an abortion" the RW makes me sick, they forced this issue in an attempt to undermine Roe) was right on. He is endorsed by NARAL, and I listened to a speech he made at a NARAL event. It was clear he thought and cares about women and women's rights, he spoke of his daughters having the same opportunities a son would have, and choice was a big part of that

[Prophet 451]

60. Absolutely

Prevention is always a better option. Once we eliminate the things which make abortion necessary, we don't have a problem anymore because every pregnancy is wanted. That's pretty much what I was trying to say but it took me a dozen replies to think of how to phrase it properly.

Yeah, I haven't had enough coffee today...

[JerseygirlCT]

111. A woman's choice and a woman's choice alone.

Amen.

[MonteLukast]

13. I wish more people would emphasize the *nurturing* of children...

... and de-emphasize the physical *creation* of children.

Love should always be more important than biology.

Admittedly, it's hard for me to empathize with people who feel such an intense need to biologically create a child that they close their minds to everything else.

Adoption, sadly, is a longer and more painful process than we think. I mean... income requirements. Income requirements. In a recession.
Our big task here is to make adoption less expensive and painful. Adoptive parents already get a nice tax credit. But it's just a start. I'm so glad we're mostly free of the prejudices against adoptive and foster kids we had as recently as 30 years ago.

Actually, I wish more people would realize that maybe having children is NOT the most important thing a person can do. Maybe things like scientific research, music, poetry, literature, and small businesses are better "babies" for more people than we think.

*dons asbestos pajamas*

[REP]

221. Adoption is psychologically harmful to relinquishing mothers

I don't know how you're going to fix that.

J Obstet Gynecol Neonatal Nurs. 1999 Jul-Aug;28(4):395-400.
Related Articles, Links

Postadoptive reactions of the relinquishing mother: a review.

Askren HA, Bloom KC.

Deer Valley OB/GYN, Mesa, AZ, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To review the literature addressing the process of relinquishment as it relates to the birth mother. DATA SOURCES: Computerized searches in CINAHL; Article 1 st, PsycFIRST, and SocioAbs databases, using the keywords adoption and relinquishment; and ancestral bibliographies. STUDY SELECTION: Articles from indexed journals in the English language relevant to the keywords were evaluated. No studies were located before 1978. Studies that sampled only an adolescent population were excluded. Twelve studies met the inclusion criteria and were included in the analysis. DATA EXTRACTION: Data were extracted and information was organized under the following headings: grief reaction, long-term effects, efforts to resolve, and influences on the relinquishment experience. DATA SYNTHESIS: A grief reaction unique to the relinquishing mother was identified. Although this reaction consists of features characteristic of the normal grief reaction, these features persist and often lead to chronic, unresolved grief. CONCLUSIONS: The relinquishing mother is at risk for long-term physical, psychologic, and social repercussions. Although interventions have been proposed, little is known about their effectiveness in preventing or alleviating these repercussions.

Med J Aust. 1986 Feb 3;144(3):117-9.
Related Articles, Links

Psychological disability in women who relinquish a baby for adoption.

Condon JT.

During 1986, approximately 2000 women in Australia are likely to relinquish a baby for adoption. A study is presented of 20 relinquishing mothers that demonstrates a very high incidence of pathological grief reactions which have failed to resolve although many years have elapsed since the relinquishment. This group had abnormally high scores for depression and psychosomatic symptoms on the Middlesex Hospital questionnaire. Factors that militate against the resolution of grief after relinquishment are discussed. Guidelines for the medical profession that are aimed at preventing psychological disability in relinquishing mothers are outlined.

Community Health Stud. 1990;14(2):180-9.
Related Articles, Links

Erratum in:
• Community Health Stud 1990;14(3):314.

Social factors associated with the decision to relinquish a baby for adoption.

Najman JM, Morrison J, Keeping JD, Andersen MJ, Williams GM.

Department of Social and Preventive Medicine, University of Queensland.

Little is known about the characteristics, social circumstances and mental health of women who give a child up for adoption. This paper reports data from a longitudinal study of 8556 women interviewed initially at their first obstetrical visit. In total, 7668 proceeded to give birth to a live singleton baby, of which 64 then relinquished the baby for adoption. Relinquishing mothers were predominantly 18 years of age or younger, in the lowest family income group, single, having an unplanned and/or unwanted baby and reported that they were not living with a partner. These women were somewhat more likely to manifest symptoms of anxiety and depression both prior, and subsequent to, the adoption, but the majority of relinquishing mothers were of 'normal' mental health. The decision to relinquish a baby appears to be a consequence of an unwanted pregnancy experienced by an economically deprived single mother rather than the result of emotional or psychological/psychiatric considerations. These findings document a particular dimension of the impact of poverty on health.

[Dukkha]

14. it's all about anti-choice

no abortion, contraception, healthcare or education of any kind. They very naively believe abstinence is the only "choice", hence no choice at all.

[notalemming]

15. Also, I've never met anyone who's "anti-life"

But of course I never ran into Bush, Cheney, Ted Bundy or any other true sociopaths . Neither did Will Rogers.

[Prophet 451]

51. I've met a couple

Trust me, they are very frightening people. Interestingly though, they tend not to be initially frightening. What makes them so terrifying isn't any overt action on their part (although I imagine that would be scary too), it's when you've talked to them for a couple of minutes and the realisation suddenly dawns that these people have no moral compass whatsoever, that the very concept is entirely alien to them.

[Arugula Latte]

16. I think calling it a necessary "evil" is too extreme. I don't think abortion is "evil."

And if you were a woman, I don't think you'd use that word.

I am thankful I live in a time when this procedure is available for MOST women -- of course, many can't get abortions because of blockades and hurdles the psychoChristians have put up.

[Prophet 451]

23. Poor choice of words on my part

and I apologise for that. I didn't mean it in the moral sense.

[Jax]

25. then take it out

edit it NOW

[Prophet 451]

31. Time period expired

The time window to edit it has expired. All I can do is apologise, it didn't occur to me that anyone would read it that way.

[Jax]

52. oh gee how convenient for you

This post is pathetic. Evil my ass....

[Prophet 451]

56. Oh, piss off then

Look, I made a dumb choice of words, I've apologised for that and I tried changing it when it was brought to my attention but couldn't do so. If you want to paint me as some kind of monster instead of believing that I made an honest mistake, that's your problem.

[2speak]

66. Don't pay any attention to these what ever they are say about you.

This happened to me earlier also. These people are trying to alienate you from the board. They think they have a high intelligence but they do not. You can see right through them. The have their own personal agenda and it's not about the subject matter. It's about discrediting you. You don't have to have a literary major to be on this board. I personally like to hear many different views on any given topic. They however do not and that is why they nitpicked at your writing. It's all they can do. They are unable to have an itelligent conversation about the issue. It's always side stepping in some fashion. If they don't understand what you were trying to convey then all they need to do is ask. But you won't see that. They are only able to call you names either directly or indirectly that is it.

[Mandate My Ass]

70. Nobody is doing any such thing

You invited those attacks by calling another poster a racial epithet every time he disagreed with you. You were antagonistic and abusive and the OP is handling himself and the discussion very thoughtfully and decorously without your false accusations.

[2speak]

73. You just did it again. He is the one that called me names

indirectly at first then directly, it was only after repeated name calling by him that I lost my tolerance for such behavior. And to cover their tracks they have gone back and deleted the more damaging objects and words.

[readmoreoften]

17. I don't think it's any more "evil" than eating hamburgers or euthanizing stray kittens.

Women have been having abortions since time immemorial. When abortion wasn't possible, infanticide was the name of the game in antiquity. I don't fetishize the idea of abortion one way or the other. Abortion is a necessity in a civil society. Period. I personally wish we cared about the hundreds of millions of kids we destroy in the Southern cone with our economic policy. Funny how 'liking' the idea of abortion is something only institutionalized psychopaths could enjoy, but shrugging off "natural population control" caused by manmade disasters and industrial abuse of workers is normal to the Western mind.

[snake in the grass]

29. Excuse me,

but euthanizing stray kittens is fucking EVIL! That's another thing I like about Germany. They do not put their stray animals down unless they are very sick or hopelessly injured. It sickens me that animals are still considered things in the U.S. although I am pleased to see that there are some shelters that don't euthanize.

[jhrobbins]

61. Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!

[qwlauren35]

192. You have GOT to be kidding me.

Okay, explain the alternative. What do you do with over 1 million extra kittens per year?

My first thought is to feed hungry humans, but I realize that the thought will upset people... especially those who have never truly known hunger.

[snake in the grass]

247. Actually, I am very serious.

Admittedly, I love cats but my attitude stretches out to all species. I would straight up fund the shelters with public and private money and launch a campaign to make people aware of their RESPONSIBILITY when they choose to acquire a pet. It disgusts me that many U.S. Americans look at animals as disposable products, that are to be set out or killed when they are no longer convenient or cute. The perversion isn't to be found alone with the one killing the animals, but rather with the members of our society who tolerate this brutal attitude. In Germany the shelters are funded as I suggested and the animals live their lives happily or are adopted. The shelters also have a policy of mandatory castration to keep the populations under control. German laws also make it possible to punish a sadist with real jail time for cruelty to vertebrates. I grew up in Florida and knew people who took pleasure in drowning kittens, blasting them away point-blank with a shotgun, or throwing them against a brick wall. They justified their actions by saying they were being merciful to the animals that would have starved or what have you, but it was obvious that they took pleasure in it. Lack of respect for life starts out small, like with a kitten, a puppy, or a frog and eventually turns into the screaming hordes who cheer when Iraqi children are blown to bits.

As for eating them, that is a cultural thing and if we were to implement your suggestion, then at least the death would not have been in vain. In many countries cats are enjoyed with a good beer, but as a general rule, I would recommend against eating carnivores because of the health issues. Besides, how many would you have to eat before you've had your fill?

[Prophet 451]

280. I actually agree here

Admittedly, I also adore cats. Ours was a stray who adopted us. She's blind as a bat, half-deaf and likes to yodel in the middle of the night. She's also incredibly loving and has done more for my state of mind than all the meds I've ever been on. We did have another but he passed away of heart problems last month.

[qwlauren35]

282. Your views are colored by your experiences - for good reason.

If i had seen that level of cruelty, i would probably share your vehemence.

I have had 8 different cats. I have two now. I was too broke to neuter the first one immediately, and a couch suffered for it. But once I had a decent salary, every pet was neutered "on time". Not too early, not too late.

The closest shelter to me right now is about 40 minutes away and has crappy hours. However, I think most vets will accept "kitten drop-offs" the same way hospitals do. It just needs to be widely known. And I think vets are probably in a billion times better position to get the kittens adopted quickly - after all, all of their clients love pets.

However, when I think about what you've written, I think that part of why Germany can do what it does is because the cat population is under control, and there's a general positive mindset about cats... and sterilization. IF all Americans believed in sterilizing their pets, (HAH! fat chance!!!!) and we got the cat population under control, then I think we could save the "oops" kitties.

Similarly, if all Americans believed in using birth control regularly, consistently and carefully, then we could easily save many of the "oops" babies. However, I admit that it would be even better if they could be easily surgically removed from pregnant women and artificially incubated until they were ready for birth. That way the woman could walk away, and the baby would have adoptive parents ready and waiting.

IF we had our birth rate under control, and the majority of Americans were willing to exercise that level of discipline when it came to having protected sex.

NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

[DangerDave921]

68. Necessity?

I think you're misusing the term. Necessity is something one NEEDS. No one needs an abortion, unless it is for health reasons.

[Scout]

74. if i'm pregnant and don't want to remain so, i NEED an abortion n/t

[DangerDave921]

84. Wow - really self-centered

You are unfortunately confusing the word "want" with "need." Basically, you're saying that you want an abortion. Therefore, you need an abortion. Maybe it's you being self-centered, or maybe it's just the times we live in when our wants get morphed into "needs." Just because you want something -- and may want it really badly -- does not mean you need it.

[Lars39]

94. Wanting an abortion can be very necessary for a woman's mental health.

Having an aversion to being a mother and not wanting to risk possible life-time health problems or possible death are all very valid reasons.

[DangerDave921]

100. And I said up above

that abortion is not a need except in cases of the mom's health.

You're still talking wants when it comes to not wanting to be a mom or not wanting to risk your health. It's still not a need. I define "need" more strictly, e.g., food, shelter, clothing, etc. You know -- the basic stuff we need to survive. You're talking about a preference not to have a child, which is a want. Not a need.

[Lars39]

108. Nope, in the case of pregnancy, a woman's wishes rule.

A woman has to be willing to be pregnant,otherwise you're advocating forced pregnancy and birth.

[DangerDave921]

229. Not advocating forced pregnancy

I am not doing that. I am pro-choice. I am only saying that if a woman WANTS an abortion, she should honestly admit that. Not try and argue that she NEEDS it.

[JerseygirlCT]

269. There are many medical reasons that would indicate the necessity of an

abortion. Are you suggesting that a woman facing an ectopic pregancy merely "wants" an abortion?

And you do understand that pregnancy is far more dangerous, physically, than an abortion, right? Which is why it is absolutely imperative that no woman be forced to undergo a pregnancy she doesn't choose to carry through.

[DangerDave921]

299. how many times can i say this?

I agree that medical reasons can make an abortion a need. Geez, people. Am I writing in Chinese or something?

Yes - if a woman develops a medical complicaton that impacts her health, an abortion can very well be a need, not just a want. Do I need to state this again or is it clear now?

But what I am saying is that such life-threatening conditions are very rare with pregnancy. And very few abortions are because of health concerns; they are because the woman does not want to have a baby.

[ismnotwasm]

149. What the FUCK ever dude.

You don't fucking know me or my needs. Don't tell me what my life is about. You don't know. You'll never know. What I need might not have a fucking thing to do with what is real in your world. What bullshit. That is one of the most arrogant statements I've ever seen.

[DangerDave921]

228. Cuss at me a little more

Because that is always the hallmark of a great argument -- how many cuss words you can throw out.

[fudge stripe cookays]

318. Well...

it tends to happen to women who are passionate about this topic. Especially when dealing with judgmental assholes like yourself, who will never be faced with this decision.

I notice you didn't make a profile. Wonder why that is. What is your point coming here, anyway?

[JerseygirlCT]

261. Spoken like someone who'll never face that decision

The only person in a position to define "want" vs. "need" in the situation is the particular woman.

NO ONE else gets a say.

[DangerDave921]

264. I disagree

I'm not saying that the decision shouldn't be in the woman's hands. I'm just saying that many people convert wants into needs. Just an observation. And these people will vigorously argue that they need it. It just isn't true most of the time. They may really really really want it, but it's not a need.

Also, I don't subscribe to the theory that only women can have any input into abortion. Where did that reasoning come from that societal issues can only be decided by one gender?

[JerseygirlCT]

265. Uh. Not one gender. One *person*. The person who, in that particular,

unique, personal situation finds herself with a pregnancy she may or may not want to continue.

As a woman, I also don't get to decide for the next woman.

This is a private medical decision. It's no one's business but the woman whose body is involved. It is NOT a societal decision at all, and that it's been dragged into the public discourse is a huge problem.

[DangerDave921]

266. well

You did say in your last post, "Spoken like someone who will never have to face that decision" which clearly implies that, as a man, I should keep my mouth shut.

As for public discourse, you are misguided. If people hadn't dragged the issue of abortion into the public discourse 40 years ago, it never would have resulted in the national movement toward allowing abortion and the resulting Roe v. Wade decision. Of course it's a societal decision. Just like all acts that affect others become societal issues (and even some that don't directly affect others like drugs).

[JerseygirlCT]

268. It's pretty safe to say that a man will never find himself in that position

unless biology changes pretty drastically in the near future. So it's a safe bet that you'll never be that one person in a position to make a decision about your own health and life.

As to affecting someone else, that's the crux of the legal arguement, isn't it? I don't happen to believe that legally we ought to be considering a fetus a person. And that until viability is reached, no one, but no one, has a right to input into a particular woman's situation. Any more than society has a right to decide whether you get that gallbladder operation or not.

[Book Lover]

305. I want to understand what you mean by need

Your examples are food, clothing and shelter, but I can guess that you would refine those. Like, for instance, I don't need to have more than a cardboard box to sleep in at night as shelter, right? And if I had a good sleeping bag, that would be adequate as a shelter, so all I really need for shelter is a sleeping bag (and a tarp, I suppose, for when it rains). Would you agree?

Taking this back to elective abortions, you have said that no elective abortions are needed, because a woman's physical health is not endangered by pregnancy. And in those cases where her health is endangered, therapeutic abortions are needed. Can I assume you mean threatened by death only? Because, for instance, gestational diabetes is a threat to a woman's health, though the GD (likely, though no one can be certain), won't kill her, so I assume you would call her abortion elective and not necessary. Am I understanding you there? And if the GD did kill her, then she would have needed that abortion, which would have been identified as therapeutic and not elective?

And to go to a place where you don't in any of your posts: if a woman is pregnant and that puts her in danger because her partner will beat her, possibly to death, because she is pregnant http://pregnancy.about.com/od/domesticviolence/Domestic_Violence_in_Pregnancy.htm , would you call her abortion wanted or needed? The pregnancy isn't threatening her life, her partner is. Does she need the abortion or does she want the abortion?

Obviously you can see I'm trying to make a point. I think you are being too rigid in separating therapeutic and elective abortions. I also think that you are either ignorant or disingenuous later in this thread when you ask if a woman should be allowed to have an abortion at 8-1/2 months of pregnancy (because we define pregnancy length in weeks and not months, I assume you mean 38 weeks of gestation?) No doctor would perform an elective abortion at that time - for one thing, it would medically be defined as an induced labor and for another the procedure would have to be performed as such.

[DangerDave921]

101. And I said up above

that abortion is not a need except in cases of the mom's health.

You're still talking wants when it comes to not wanting to be a mom or not wanting to risk your health. It's still not a need. I define "need" more strictly, e.g., food, shelter, clothing, etc. You know -- the basic stuff we need to survive. You're talking about a preference not to have a child, which is a want. Not a need.

[underseasurveyor]

124. Oh now you're just quibbling over semantics

OK "NEED" The only thing a person truly needs is air, food, and water.

So ok I'll play... I don't need an abortion therefore I can't have one... SO now if I have no food for my baby and now I'll need to watch that baby die. Oh no I don't need to watch my baby die I can just leave him or her behind a rock and walk away.. Hey you're right I don't need an abortion.

Problem solved:eyes:

Ridiculous I know but so is playing with words to make ridiculous arguments.

On edit: forgot to spellcheck... No misspellings found.
whew;-)

[DangerDave921]

222. not semantics

It's the proper meaning of the words. Wants are not needs. And to be clear, I am NOT saying that because you don't need an abortion that you can't have one. Not at all. But I do advocate honesty and logic in explaining the rationale for laws. And at its heart, abortion is not a necessity. It is an option that women want to have available to them. I don't see what is wrong with taking that position, i.e., I want abortion to be legal in case I want to have one. Converting it to a "need" is really a way of distancing oneself from the decision-making.

And in addition to air, food, and water, we really need shelter too. It can get pretty cold where I live. :)

[underseasurveyor]

235. OK I got that...

I'm glad you brought up the need for shelter. You're correct, but depending on the type of climate a person lives in is related to whether or not you need shelter. If it's too hot or too cold or too wet then yes a person needs shelter or they will die. Where I live I don't need shelter since the weather is near perfect, IMHO.

But you need shelter where you live or you will die and dare I say there are many women that will die if they don't have an abortion.

And also since you put it this way, "I want abortion to be legal in case I want to have one." Yea you're darn right, if I want one I want them to be legal.

BTW I do get what you mean about need versus want but there are times when abortion is a need, just like shelter:-)

To you:toast:

[DangerDave921]

243. where do you live??

The weather is perfect? Tell me where! I'm in Maryland where it's starting to get chilly and the leaves are falling.

[underseasurveyor]

245. Southern California

'bout a half mile from the beach. DE-vined Decadence :-)

[DangerDave921]

250. I've never had the pleasure

of visiting your great state. Sounds beautiful.

What, you couldn't get a place right ON the beach?!? LOL

[underseasurveyor]

251. Then I just go over to my sister place which is on the marina

in Alamitos Bay OR I drive 3/4 of a mile to go hang out and sunbathe on my friends big luxurious boat IN the marina.

It's a tough life i know but I'm willing to take one for the team :evilgrin: Besides one of my part time jobs I work on and/or in the ocean. It's really not as glamorous as it may seem it's mostly collecting data and helping with certain surveys and LOTS of cleaning but I do love the ocean, it's gardens and the creatures that live there.

You really should visit So.Cal. some time. In late summer or early fall there are less people and the scuba diving is at it's best. And then there's Catalina Island:woohoo: We were there the beginning of Oct. for 5 days, on our friends big luxurious boat and the diving was some of the best I've experienced in a long while. The water was warm and clear and the vegetation (kelp, algae, sea-grasses)... SPECTACULAR. And fish and rays and seals n dolphin were everywhere.

My happy place is in the ocean:-)

[DangerDave921]

254. Oceans

There is something peaceful and almost religious about the ocean. I only go once a year, down to the beach on the Delaware shores. But sitting on the beach watching the rhythmic waves, or lolling in the ocean, just transforms life into a state of contentment. It's almost impossible to be tense or angry in the ocean. Unless Jaws was chasing me or something. Then I might get a little freaked.

Sounds like you have quite the life!

[Scout]

232. oh? who made you King Shit of what women "want" and "need"?

you're still wrong. i don't WANT to be pregnant, so i NEED an abortion.

and when it's my uterus, you are damn fucking right i will be "self-centered" about it.

:grr: :nuke:

[DangerDave921]

244. you can cuss so you must be right

Seriously, do people really think that cussing makes a stronger argument?

We're just going to disagree on this point. You can call it a need if that makes you feel better.

And I don't mean self-centered in the sense that it is or isn't your body. I mean self-centered in the sense that in today's world we are all conditioned to believe that just because we want something it is automatically a "need."

[Scout]

252. if cussing bothers you so much, you might want to try a different web site.... n/t

[DangerDave921]

255. Cussing doesn't bother me

It just tells that someone doesn't know how to formulate a coherent argument.

[Scout]

319. that's your opinion

doesn't make it true.

i just choose not to waste much time on the ignorant ... and to speak in simple language that they understand.

[mudesi]

75. Actually....

A pregnant woman who wants an abortion needs one.

[DangerDave921]

91. But

Wants are not needs. Needs are necessities. Wants are desires. A woman may want an abortion -- and have valid reasons for wanting it -- but that doesn't mean she needs it.

That's like saying I want a car, therefore I need one. That's silly. (and no I'm not equating cars with abortions so don't go there).

[Lars39]

97. If she wants it, she needs it. Period.

What you are advocating for is forced pregnancy, resulting in a forced birth against the woman's wishes.

[DangerDave921]

102. Then I need

a new car. I need a bigger house. I need to have sex with Salma Hayek. I need a raise at work. I need my kids to behave better. I guess there's no end to the things I "need" under your logic.

I am not advocating forced pregnancy. I am saying the desire for an abortion (except in cases of health) is not a need. It is a want. It is a desire. It is a preference. It is a choice. It is not a NEED.

[Lars39]

109. Not in any way the same....pregnancy could mean death or impairment.

[REP]

223. So is most non-emergent surgery; your point?

You wanting a thing is not quite the same as woman wanting medical treatment. Is your life threatened by the mere lack of a new car as a woman's is by the fact she is pregnant?

[DangerDave921]

225. a couple points

I don't mean to suggest that a desire for a new car is on par with desiring an abortion. Of course they are worlds apart. I was just trying to illustrate the difference between wants and needs. And of course abortion is a necessity in cases of the mom's health. I've said that several times already here.

I don't think abortion counts as simply medical treatment. Treatment for what? Pregnancy is not a disease. It is of course a medical procedure, but that's different. As for the mom's life being threatened, I'm not clear how being pregnant threatens a woman's life. Yes, there can be rare conditions such as eclampsia or complications during childbirth, but let's be honest. 99.9% of women getting abortions are not doing it because they are concerned that pregnancy may threaten their life. They're doing it because they don't want a baby. I just want that fact acknowledged rather than trying to hide behind these so-called health reasons.

I am pro-choice (at least for early pregnancies). But I want honesty and logic in the reasons why it should be legal.

[MissB]

236. You have no idea what a woman goes through during a pregnancy.

"I'm not clear how being pregnant threatens a woman's life."

Clearly you're oblivious.

[DangerDave921]

256. Not oblivious

I said there are some rare conditions associated with pregnancy that can threaten a woman's life. But they are very rare. The percentage of women who die from pregnancy-related illness is miniscule.

Also, the women having abortions are doing it so they won't have a baby. Not because they are worried about pregnancy-related threat of death. Let's be real here.

And I do have some idea what women go through. I have a wife who's had two kids. And I'm a medical malpractice attorney so I deal in medicine all the time.

[uppityperson]

291. forced pregnancy=new car or house?

Sometimes it is a need. Plain and simple.

[JetCityLiberal]

304. Same right wing bullshit you have that down

like you and all the 'daves' here. Pure right wing bullshit.

[readmoreoften]

138. No, I meant NECESSITY. It is a SOCIAL NECESSITY. As in it NEEDS to exist because they are NEEDED.

For instance, a friend of mine was told she could not have children. This was not clearly explained by her harried, city doctor and she thought she could not get pregnant. In actually, she could get pregnant but could not carry a fetus to term. Unaware, she became pregnant and while on a trip to a small town she began feeling very sick, the emergency room explained that she was pregnant and the fetus was most likely dead and rotting inside her causing a toxic response which could be fatal, but that since the hospital was a Catholic hospital, they said they were unwilling to give her a D&C because the 'baby' might still be alive.

Her fiance had to rush her back to a large city emergency room where after crossing through a line of anti-abortion scum accusing her of murder, she was given a D&C and proper medical care.

So...mind your own business and let doctors save the lives of actually existing people. Abortion is NECESSARY.

[DangerDave921]

219. one more time

As I said in my very first post, abortion can be a necessity in the case of mom's health reasons. So your whole post merely agrees with my position.

As for minding my own business, this is a public message forum. It's not like I walked up to you at a diner and started sharing my opinions.

[qwlauren35]

195. A "society" needing abortion is a different subject.

But perhaps a better word is "inevitable". In the same way that prostitution becomes inevitable when no other solution for sexual needs is achieved in that society. Frankly, as soon as prostitution exists, abortion becomes "necessary", because pregnant prostitutes can't work.

[DangerDave921]

220. good distinction

A society needing to have abortion is different from one person claiming it is a necessity. Many on here seem to believe that just because you want something, it means that it's a necessity. I disagree with that mindset.

[Prophet 451]

83. Poor choice of words on my part

I meant "necessary evil" as in an undesireable but needed option, not as a moral judgement. When I say that I am anti-abortion, I am saying that I am opposed to those things which make abortion necessary.

You make a good point about the differing ways we think about things and it's somethign I've wondered occasionally: What is it that makes babies or foetuses (foeti?) inherantly more valuable than any other human life? Why is it that if one person dies, it's a tragedy but a thousand dead is a statistic? Psychologically, it says something interesting about our culture but I'm not sure what.

[El Pinko]

231. Of course it's not about "liking", it'd doing what needs to be done.

Life is not pretty. It sure as hell is not the sepia-toned, starched-and-pressed lily-white Beaver Cleaver fantasy the repugs want us all to believe in...

[R. P. McMurphy]

19. Excellent post Prophet.

Wish I could have said it so well.

[LeftinOH]

20. My 8-year old niece was told by a schoolmate that Barak Obama kills babies..

...because her family has an Obama sign in the front yard (I gave them the sign). She's a sensitive, perceptive kid -and now her parents have to explain certain things...way earlier than they expected to. Our whole extended family is pro-choice, but also anti-abortion. Right- wingers simply don't get it.

[Bill McBlueState]

26. about the baby killing line

Until this year, I hadn't heard this charge levied against a Democrat for a while. I think they bring it out when they're getting desperate.

[rvablue]

39. And your niece's schoolmates' parents are child abusers

There is more than a likelihood now that Obama is going to president.

The fact that these parents put this scary, obscene image into their children's minds is abuse.

Can you imagine what these small children will think when they see Obama running the country and having nightmares and panics that he might come and kill them or their brothers and sisters.

Just plain disgusting. Can't these people just go and cast their vote based on their "beliefs" and leave the mental and emotional well being of their children out of it?

on edit: Sorry, I forgot to include how sorry I am that your niece had to go through this, but at least she has good parents who will help her from being scarred from this experience.

[Jax]

24. I am not anti abortion at all

It is a necessary medical procedure. I want abortion safe and legal forever.

I want unwanted pregnancy rare. Take the bullshit evil comment out of your post. Pathetic right wing talking points.

And my body is none of your business anit-abortion guy. You have no idea what most people believe, another right wing talking point.

[Mandate My Ass]

30. It never ceases to amaze me

with all the tragedy, violence, poverty, cruelty and plain old injustice in this world, people get their panties in a bunch over a legal medical procedure which is none of their business to begin with.

With that being said, I think the OP was more thoughtful and sincere than most anti-choicers, but anti-choicers should realize that framing the debate this way makes it more difficult for women than it needs to be.

[Prophet 451]

33. I'm not anti-choice

I'm making the distinction between being pro-choice and being pro-abortion.

[Mandate My Ass]

35. You're not?

Then why post about how abortion pains you and so many other people? Is that necessary or even relevant? I say no. I also say that I see some veiled misogyny going on in the OP.

[Prophet 451]

40. Because that was the point

That abortion is undesireable but it less undesireable than the alternatives, that there is a difference between being in favour of choice and being in favour of abortion. Being pro-abortion would be jumping out at pregnant women screaming "abort it!" or believeing that every pregnancy should be aborted and as I said, I only know one guy who thinks like that. Being pro-choice is exactly that, supporting either choice. If you'd like me to make it even simpler, what I am saying is "it would be nice if it were not necessary for abortion to exist but it is necessary".

As for misogyny, that's up to you. I certainly didn't intend to make it misogynistic and I don't think I did so (with the exception of my dumb choice of words in the "necessary evil" line but it's a common phrase, it didn't occur to me that anyone would read it as a moral judgement and I've already apologised for that).

[Mandate My Ass]

47. but by putting even that caveat on it

you are making it more difficult for women. You're saying "you have my support but your choice is disappointing and tragic to me and so many like me." That's finger wagging and it's counter-productive to women's rights and also to those unfortunate women who are guilt-prone through socialization.

You're straddling the fence basically -- having it both ways. For more in this vein, read impeachdubya's post below.

[Prophet 451]

55. Ah, ok

OK, that hadn't occured to me. I'll think on that and thanks for raising it.

[qwlauren35]

202. But that's how many Americans feel.

You have my support but your choice is disappointing and tragic to me and so many like me.


I think that's why I got so excited when RU-486 was invented. If no one even knows, and it's truly private, then there's very little else to say.

In fact, it's unfortunate that they require a prescription. I think you should be able to go into a pharmacy, take a urine test, and if it's positive, ask for the pill, pay in cash, get a 1 minute lecture on the time frame issue, and then walk away, no names, no questions asked.

In fact, if they had a more sensitive pregnancy test that could give an estimate what week you're in, then a "positive" test that indicated that the RU-486 is safe should replace the lecture.

But no, women should not have THAT MUCH POWER...

When the day comes that non-surgical abortion is 100% safe for females,, it will be harder to argue against making it available anonymously.

Frankly, if your parents don't even know that you're f*cking yet, they don't need to know if you get a 100% safe abortion.

[Jax]

53. Well said Mandate

you said it well, it is this framing of this pissed me off. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

[Prophet 451]

32. You've missed my point

The point I was making was that it is a necessary procedure, however undesireable it might be. I'm drawing the distinction between being pro-choice (which I am) and pro-abortion (which I am not). The "evil" bit wasn't meant to be a moral judgement and I apologise for the poor choice of words there.

And I do have some idea what other people believe because I ask them.

[Jax]

64. you made your "point"

You can piss off with the right wing crap here....

[Prophet 451]

69. Are you still here?

YOU are the one demonising me for a poor choice of words. YOU are the one who has decided that I couldn't possibly have made an honest mistake. YOU decided that I must have meant a very common phrase to mean a moral judgement. YOU are the one who has decided that I must be a knuckle-dragging misogynist. YOU are the one who was too fucking stupid to understand my point and YOU are the one who decided that I must be pushing some obnoxious right-wing point completely opposed to what I actually wrote. It is YOU who have a problem here.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

82. Right Wing Crap? ROFLMAO!!!!! You're A Hoot! I Love Knee Jerkers!

The OP did a fine job. Your attacks on the OP are without merit and somewhat irrational.

[prayin4rain]

151. necessary evil is a commonly used phrase used to describe difficult

things... it is an extremely common way to describe innocuous things... I don't like the dry cleaners down the road but the next closest one is 30 miles so dropping my shirts off there is a necessary evil. They have latched on to something that makes them feel like they are more progressive and righteous than you are.. they aren't going to let it go. I just hate to see you keep trying to plead your case and apologizing 200 times when nothing you say is going to bring them down from their indignant high.

[janet118]

43. My standard reply to all anti-abortion people . . .

Fine, don't have one.

[DangerDave921]

71. Really a wrong response

Because it applies a self-directed morality on the issue. Do we really want moral and societal issues to be decided by each of us according to our own views? By your logic, we could apply that analysis to any issue.

You think it's wrong to own assault weapons? Fine, done own one.

You think it's wrong to fire someone for being gay? Fine, don't fire that person.

[Quantess]

78. So, you want the government to get involved in the abortion issue?

[DangerDave921]

87. I'm discussing logic

not this specific example. I'm saying that you can't take a moral/societal/legal issue and just say, "Oh well if you disagree with me then just don't do it yourself." Because by that logic, one could be a total racist, discriminatory, unlawful jerk. And it would be OK under your view, because that person is just doing that they think is right. My point is that some things the government does have to step in and make rules for everyone, not just leave it in each individual's hands to do what he/she wants.

[Quantess]

95. So, you do think the government should make reproductive decisions for citizens, then.

Doctor-patient relationships be damned, the government knows best. I see what you're saying.

[DangerDave921]

98. Did you not read my post?

I am NOT talking about abortion. My point is you can't logically say "Well, just don't have one then." It is not a valid argument for ANY thing.

[Quantess]

105. I did read your post. You didn't answer the question.

From your elusive post, I surmised that you do think government needs to regulate and/or prohibit abortion. For you, this is merely an intellectual exercise. This is not merely an intellectual exercise for women. These are real life situations for women, and obviously to a larger extent than you realize.

[DangerDave921]

226. OK

I am pro-choice.

However, I have serious reservations about late-term abortions and partial-birth abortions. It's not scientific really, but once that little sac of cells in there turns into an actual baby bobbing around, I have a problem with killing it. To me, the toughest hypothetical is this: OK, if you support abortion, do you support the right of a mom to abort her baby at 8 1/2 months? To be perfectly honest, my answer is no. A fetus at that age is a real live baby. So I can't agree with killing it. And partial birth abortions just strike me as barbaric.

That's the best I can do.

[Quantess]

253. Thank you for your honest answer.

That's a moderate viewpoint that a lot of people share. I think this is one area the government needs to back off completely, because it is a doctor-patient decision, and really none of anyone's business. I have heard arguments that say, if we allow government to regulate reproductive choices, the government could just as easily require abortions in some circumstances. People scoff at that, because our current cultural values would never allow mandated abortions. Cultural values do change, though. Just a thought.

[DangerDave921]

257. You're welcome

It really is a tough issue. And I do fall in the middle. I don't want to eliminate all abortions. I equate early abortions more with miscarriages. But I would vote to ban partial birth abortions and late-term abortions (i.e., after 32 weeks say). I see my little kids and remember when they were newborns, and I just can't pretend that that living fetus inside the womb isn't a baby. Not when it has fully functioning organs and limbs and is viable. Would you support a woman's right to abort her baby a week before it's due?

And you're right -- cultural values change. I am aware of the potential danger of overly intrusive government.

[Quantess]

259. Would you support a woman's right to abort her baby a week before it's due?

Realistically, who would ask for an abortion a week before her due date, unless there was a life threatening reason? And realistically, what doctor would agree to do the procedure, unless there was a life threatening reason?

This is where John McCain thinks that the big scam is happening--that women are abusing (air quotes)"health of the mother" as a reason. Are people forgetting the countless millions of women that have died in childbirth over history? John McCain apparently misses those good old days.

Think about how heartbreaking it is for the parents to have to make that choice, so late in a pregnancy. And then, have insult upon injury, by having their motives questioned by ignorant government officials, some who think Jesus rode dinosaurs. I would not want to tell anyone in that situation, what is the right thing to do.

[DangerDave921]

260. Law School Hypo

Forgive me -- I'm used to getting unrealistic hypotheticals from law professors and judges in order to test the bounds of one's argument.

I would be OK banning late-term abortions, absent dire health reasons of course.

[janet118]

81. Why? It's still legal to have abortion, isn't it? n/t

[Incitatus]

27. I'm pro-abortion

but only for chickens

[KharmaTrain]

28. I've Never Met A Woman Who Wanted An Abortion

All those who have chosen to terminate a pregnancy do so with a lot of introspection. The term "pro-abortion" (a creation of the right wing) is not what this is about. Those in favor of a woman's right to choose are not advocating this procedure, never have...but to make it an option...a choice.

The wingnuts have long tried to tied abortion into the "lax of sexual morals" of my generation and Democrats...thinking if you shut down a young woman's utereus that somehow no one would have pre-marital sex. I have never met anyone who looks forward to an abortion or recommends it except as a choice.

I, too, would like to see a lot more sexual education available as well as contraception. Too bad those anti-choice hypocrites who believe "all life is sacred" scream about welfare babies and are against public education and other aspects that would affect the quality of life of the children they so claim to defend or are such rabid defenders of the death penalty. As George Carlin said about the topic "it's all in the timing".

Cheers...

[pitohui]

93. youve never met a woman who admitted to YOU she wanted an abortion

that suggests you either haven't met many women or that for whatever reason women can't admit this to you

abortion is often a very good thing and it's logical that women will want good things

as a woman i've certainly met women who have said (but not where men could hear) that their abortion was a life saver

[KharmaTrain]

116. I've Heard It Being A Life Saver...

Let me be more specific...I haven't met a woman who says the reason she got pregnant was to get an abortion. I've been close to several women in this situation and each make the decission that was most definitely one of the most difficult and intense they've ever had to confront.

The issue should be the focus of preventing women having to be put in this situation...to make affordable and accessible health care and to take the stigma away from both the teaching of sex ed and the distribution and use of contraception.

The thing that irks me is how the right wing frames those who favor a woman's right to choose as "pro-abortion" or "baby killers".

Cheers...

[noiretextatique]

34. i am totally pro-healthcare

that includes abortion.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. I agree that in an ideal world, every pregnancy would be deliberate. BUT:

And here's the proverbial big But:

In an ideal world, also, the human animal would be more inclined to worry about what he or she is doing with his or her OWN body, as opposed to the excessive amount of energy many of us seem to spend hand-wringing and moralizing over what others choose to do with THEIR OWN BODIES.

[Mandate My Ass]

41. I really like your big But

proverbial or not. :evilgrin:

[Prophet 451]

46. You like big BUTs and you cannot lie? n/t

[Mandate My Ass]

49. tee-hee

Great song from the blast-from-the-past archives! ;-)

[Prophet 451]

44. I'm not sure that's possible

I think it's human nature to have an opinion on what one's metaphorical neighbours are doing.

Thank you though for understanding what I was saying.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. It's completely possible. My head is attached to my neck and shoulders, and therefore,

it is expressly my concern what goes on with my bloodstream, my body, my reproductive system. If someone gets drunk and drives a car over me, that becomes my problem, too.

However, what other people choose to do with their bodies is generally not my concern unless they make it mine. And while I don't have a religious belief that life begins at the second of conception, if I *did*, I would also understand that not everyone shares that belief, and as such make a distinction between having an abortion myself (moot, because I'm a guy) and telling the rest of the world that they, too, had to abide by my personal religious belief that a fertilized egg is a full human being from the second of conception onward.

I don't actually tend to have much of an opinion on what my neighbors are doing with their own bodies, no. I consider it their business, and not all that much of mine. I realize I may be, unfortunately, in the minority-- although I'm reminded of a wonderful song that goes "when you mind your own bid'ness, you won't be mindin' mine"

[Prophet 451]

80. In the sense of consenting adults, you're right

But I was thinking more generally.

[cobalt1999]

37. Frankly, I'm all for abortion

First off, there are WAY TOO MANY people on this planet.

If I was in charge, there be a free government funded clinic on most corners, but in every High School too.

Not only that, but unless someone could prove they could afford to take care of the little rug-rat, I'd make the abortion mandatory.

[DangerDave921]

65. LOL - Please be joking

Make abortion mandatory? And they said that Democrats were about freedom! LOL

[cobalt1999]

67. Hyperbole

However, be VERY glad that I'm not in charge of the world. :)

[Jed Dilligan]

157. Afford? I would much rather pay for good poor people to raise kids

and stop the rich assholes from breeding altogether.

[Quantess]

42. That's nice. But do you want government to get involved?

I think that's great that people are anti-abortion, as long as they don't expect the government to mandate those beliefs on everyone else.

[Prophet 451]

45. Of course not

The point of the article is "it would be very nice if abortion weren't necessary but it is necessary". When I say that I am anti-abortion, I am saying that I am opposed to the things which make abortion necessary.

[Locrian]

54. thanks

I get you post - not sure why it was taken the wrong way.

[Prophet 451]

58. It's an emotive issue

Abortion is one of those issues that a lot of people react from the gut on. Witness those upthread who would rather believe that I was some misogynistic monster. And then there are those who believe that men have no right to have an opinion on abortion at all which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I have an opinion on the availability of estrogen-only contraceptive pills and the taxing of tampons as well, both issues men don't have to deal with but for some reason, if the topic is abortion, I shouldn't have an opinion.

[Quantess]

59. I read too quickly and I must have missed the subtlety.

:hi: In that case, I agree, and I think the majority of Americans would agree with you. Obama seems to agree with you.

Did you know that number abortions have risen during republican presidencies (Reagan, Bush I, and W), and declined during Clinton's presidency? Obviously, having a "pro-life" president doesn't reduce abortions.

[Prophet 451]

62. Didn't know they declined under Clinton

Logically, it's obvious that abortions would rise under Republicans but I wasn't aware that it declined under Clinton. I would imagine that's due to, among other things, better healthcare, better sex ed and contraceptive use and a reduction in poverty.

[Quantess]

72. I'll have to look it up to be sure.

I remember reading an article that said abortion rates rose during HW Bush, and rose again during W's presidency. Financial difficulty was cited as the biggest reason in the past 8 years, and the women were surprisingly older, on average, than before.

It seems that a common reason women get abortions is because they know they can't afford to have a baby or support a baby.

(edit to clarify)

[Quantess]

167. Actually it looks like abortions have declined, in general, over a 30 year period

I know I saw an article about abortion rates during specific presidencies, but I can't find it.
This is an informative article:

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2008/09/23/index.html

[Prophet 451]

170. That's interesting

Of course, there's no way of measuring how much of that is due to the demonising of abortion but I'd be interested to see if that correlates with patterns of income distribution.

[Quantess]

177. Here's an article about teen pregnancies, teen abortions in USA compared to Europe.

The figures are not good for USA (unless someone thinks teen pregnancy is a good idea)

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/factsheet/fsest.htm

[pitohui]

275. abortions have declined because they are no longer available to most women

would you know where to get an abortion in your state? i don't believe there is a single provider left in louisiana

poor and working class women can't get abortions any more, well, maybe in small northeast state w. good public transportation, i dunno, but for the most part, where would they go? how could they get there? how they could afford the travel expense on top of the cost of the procedure?

abortion has become a time waster to argue about because the rich and the upper middle class who value education can afford to seek out abortion as needed to secure their daughter's health and future, but the option is no longer available to many many many others

the forces of evil have won, and we continue to see poor women loaded down w. not just one but multiple children, which guarantees they have no hope for their own future and no hope for their children, but at least the fundies will have more hopeless folk to patronize and force to praise jesus for a hand out

[northernlights]

57. I own my own body and I'm anti-rape

no more to say on the matter.

[Prophet 451]

140. I would hope we all are anti-rape n/t

[Irishonly]

63. I am pro choice not a cheer leader for abortion

One of my daughter's friends came over a few weeks ago and he believes any woman having an abortion is headed straight for hell no matter what. I asked him what he thought pro choice meant. I am such a mom that I think that many people think I am conservative. That is until they talk to me.

My daughter's friend thought it meant to encourage abortions and my jaw dropped to the floor. Being pro choice is not standing on street corners trying to get pregnant women to abort their babies. He got a lecture about prevention-if it's not plastic, wear a condom. We ended up talking about birth control and spermicides. His perception was completely changed although I believe he still believes abortion is evil.

[Prophet 451]

76. My point exactly

When I say I am anti-abortion, I am opposed to the things which make abortion necessary. Sadly, it seems a great many people missed the point even though I thought I'd been pretty explicit about it.

Sorry, that's not about you, that's just me being annoyed.

[Irishonly]

104. Unfortunately, Rape and Incest Aren't Going Away

What a wonderful world it would be if contraception was available to everyone, if rape and incest would go away and all women had wonderful health care. I don't know anyone who is pro choice that doesn't wish for the same things we are talking about.

When my daughter was old enough to understand I taught her abortion should be legal and rare. She knew that she must use contraception and require condoms be used. Many of her friends didn't understand that a woman should be on birth control for a couple of months before it could be considered a useful contraception. I have lost count of how many friends of hers I have talked to about sex.

[Prophet 451]

106. Not yet but maybe in time

Amongst other things, I'm a perfectabilist. That's a fancy way of saying that I believe we can eventually evolve the perfect society. Certainly not in my lifetime, probably not for millenia and possibly never but the potential is there and by little steps, by a long road of reasoning and counter-reasoning, we advance a little more toward that.

[meow mix]

77. i am anti-slavery

and therefore pro-choice

[Evoman]

85. I'm anti-abortion because men can't have abortions.

It's not fair that women get to have them, but I can't make the choice with my own body. What if I want an abortion? It's not fair. It's sexism.

:sarcasm:

[Prophet 451]

89. LOL!

"It's symbolic of our struggle against opression / it's symbolic of his struggle against reality"

[underseasurveyor]

183. Two birds

Ha Ha :rofl: Abortion and sexisim.. Love it:toast:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

86. Great Post. I'm Against Abortion But Pro-Choice As Well. I Agree With You 100%.

And don't let the knee jerkers get to you. Just giggle to yourself. They're just silly. :)

[iamthebandfanman]

88. i love the "life, what a wonderful choice" signs

im glad all these people agree its A CHOICE.

[pitohui]

90. makes about as much sense as saying i'm a chick and i'm against bypass surgery

sometimes technology is the only way to save a life, to save health, to save body function, to save a future

you wouldn't say you were anti-bypass surgery (even tho we all wished we lived in a dream world where heart disease never happened)

why then say you are anti-abortion?

it's an important technology and should, in my opinion, be celebrated for the lives, health, body function, and futures it has saved

i'm tired of tiptoeing around to please the people who can't be pleased

abortion for many women has been a marvelous thing and why can't we acknowledge that? there's no use pandering to the know-nothings anyway

[Prophet 451]

96. "why then say you are anti-abortion?"

Because the necessity of abortion indicates that something has gone very wrong somewhere. I am anti-abortion because I am opposed to the things which make abortion necessary. Once those things are taken care of, the whole discussion becomes a moot point because every pregnancy is a desired one. That would be my desired outcome. By acknowledging that this is not the case, I am defending why abortion (or more accuratly, the legality of abortion) is a necessity.

[pitohui]

274. you just don't get it, do you? the necessity for ANY surgery means something has gone badly wrong

it is the nature of mortal life that things can and do go badly wrong

if a surgical procedure can fix something that has gone badly wrong, you don't crap on the surgical procedure and say "i'm anti-bypass surgery, i'm anti-abortion" or whatever just to make a cheap rhetorical point

that is in essence dishonest because i celebrate bypass surgery because it has saved lives dear to me, i celebrate abortion because it has saved lives dear to me

as long as you are ashamed of abortion and find it necessary to proclaim yourself "anti abortion" you're still part of the problem because you're agreeing w. the enemy that abortion is a bad thing that should never happen

in an ideal world where people never got sick, never got tired, never got raped, never got overwhelmed, then maybe then abortion would be neutral -- in THIS world abortion is a very good thing that has helped many women and families, maybe even some you know of -- just as in an ideal world where people never got sick, then bypass surgery would just be a nuisance money maker for the doctors but in THIS world it does save and prolong life

think about it

there is never anything good that will come w. agreeing w. our enemy that abortion is a bad, negative thing

like the lady said, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament -- it would be celebrated for the good it does

it's too cheap and easy to sing with the choir and say you're anti-abortion, it's human nature to want to conform, but it isn't helpful

[Hekate]

92. Well said. And by the way...

:hug:

Hekate

[Prophet 451]

103. Thanks

I'm taking comfort in the fact that at least some people got my point.

[slackmaster]

99. I think abortions are bad and should be avoided as much as possible

But I am not willing to have all of society assume accountability for the consequences of banning it.

Freedom of choice is good, even if it means people will sometimes make bad choices.

[Fly by night]

112. I wish that we were all sterile by default and that all it took for us to conceive was ...

... for the prospective father and mother to take an antidote together every day for 30 days.

That would end all unintended pregnancies (which is probably half of them, if not more.)

I also do not like abortion, and am always dismayed that abortions trend upward under Rethugligan administrations. I'm not even sure whether CDC is even releasing this information now. (I know they were sitting on it a while back.)

[ArmedAmerican]

113. well I'm a guy and I don't have a uterus

so fortunately neither one of us will ever have to get an abortion or give birth. Consequently I think neither one of our opinions are relevant, except to keep other people from telling women what they can and can't do.

[Prophet 451]

114. They might not be relevant but we can have them

I have opinions on the taxing of tampons and the availability of estrogen-only birth control too. I pretty much have an opinion on everything.

[PeaceNikki]

115. Let's be honest, you're not anti-abortion - you're anti-choice.

And your post reeks of judgment and complete lack of understanding.

The Case for Repealing Anti-Abortion Laws

Long, but a great read.

(PDF)http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/action/repeal.pdf

No country needs to regulate abortion via criminal or civil law. Only when abortion has the same legal status as any other health procedure can it be fully integrated into women’s reproductive healthcare.

by Joyce Arthur

The repeal of abortion laws is supported by evidence from Canada, the only democratic country in the world with no laws restricting abortion since 1988. Abortions have since become earlier and safer, and the number of abortions has become moderate and stable. Current abortion care reflects what most Canadians are comfortable with, and women and doctors act in a timely and responsible manner, with no need for regulation.

Several legal arguments help build the case for abortion law repeal. A constitutional guarantee of women’s equality can be used to overturn abortion laws, and ensure that abortion is funded by the healthcare system as a medically-required service. Freedom of religion, the right to privacy, and the right to self-defense can also be used to strike down laws. All anti-abortion restrictions are unjust, harmful, and useless because they rest on traditional religious and patriarchal foundations. Laws kill and injure women, violate their human rights and dignity, impede access to abortion, and obstruct healthcare professionals.

...

Abortion is not a “necessary evil.” Abortion is a moral and positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, and protects families.

[Prophet 451]

117. Did you actually read it?

I have already apologised for the use of the word "evil". That was clumsy wording on my part, it's a common phrase and it didn't occur to me that anyone would read it as a moral judgement. I've stated over and over again that when I say I am anti-abortion, I am saying that I am opposed to the things which make abortion necessary. This is simply an unusually long-winded way of saying that I think abortion should be as rare as possible and is the exact same position as everyone who describes their preferred position as "safe, legal and rare".

That leaves only four options. Either:
A) You did not read the post;
B) You did not understand the post;
C) You didn't read the thread or;
D) You go off half-cocked so you can insult people.

[PeaceNikki]

121. Sure did read it. And I stand by my statement.

If you took it as an insult, you clearly didn't read *MY* post. Your opinion on why abortions are necessary is, quite frankly, none of your business unless it's someone with which you're personally involved.

[Prophet 451]

125. Then you're an idiot

Taking an article which explicitly defends legal abortion as a necessity and claiming that the poster believes the exact opposite purely because he's male makes you a moron.

[PeaceNikki]

128. Heh, no. I'm a lot of things, but not an idiot.

And your opinion of me and on abortions means nothing.

You stand high on your horse and keep feeling real righteous, proclaiming how, in your perfect Utopia, there would be no abortions. But, in doing so, you're judging people. Even when you say you're not.

[Prophet 451]

131. You are telling me to stop defending a position because I have balls

1) It is possible to be sexist to men, you know.
2) Telling me I'm doing X despite the fact I haven't said anything remotely similar says that it is you inserting that view, not me.
3) Respond to what I actually wrote, instead of demonising me for being male or responding to what you think I wrote.
4) Pick a reason to hate me. Currently, you say it's because I'm "judging people" (except that I didn't and you are judging that I have no right to have an opinion on something). Last post, you were claiming that I was anti-choice despite the article saying the exact opposite.

[PeaceNikki]

134. Tell me, dear Prophet...

how do you feel about abortions that are a result of a "heat of the moment" affair - consensual sex between 2 adults without contraception?

[Prophet 451]

136. I think a couple of things

I think that firstly, it was dumb of them not to use contraception (and not just for pregnancy-related reasons), albeit possibly not their fault with the ridiculous sex ed currently in vogue. And then I would think that children should be wanted and loved and hope they make better choices next time.

[leftofthedial]

118. I'm pro-choice

and anti-abortion

and anti-anti-choice.

[PeaceNikki]

126. And, furthermore... it's a women’s reproductive healthcare issue.

It's a PRIVATE HEALTH CARE DECISION between a WOMAN and her doctor.

Your opinion really doesn't count.

[Prophet 451]

129. And yet, women get to have an opinion on testicular cancer

The fact that I am male doesn't matter since I'm fairly sure it would be easy to find a woman sharing the exact same views. oh look, there's several on this very thread. You are telling me that I have no right to state an opinion which explicitly defends legal abortion simply because I'm male and yet, I'd be bloody sure you'd decry sexism in any other walk of life.

[PeaceNikki]

130. If women said men couldn't/shouldn't get health care for testicular cancer

I'd take issue.

Your argument is rigoddamdiculous.

[Prophet 451]

132. And you're taking issue with me when I DIDN'T say anything remotely similar

Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, did I say women couldn't or shouldn't have the right to choose an abortion. I said that I wished abortion were not necessary. First, you said I was anti-choice, in defiance of reading an article from me saying the exact opposite. Then you said I was "judging people" (something you are yourself exhibiting) despite never saying anything remotely like that. Now, you're saying I'm telling women they couldn't or shouldn't have an abortion, again in direct opposition to what I actually wrote.

You are creating a fight with me either because you didn't bother to read the post and can't admit that you screwed up, didn't understand the post or just because I'm a guy who dares to have an opinion on something, even though my opinion is defending a woman's right to choose. That would make YOU the sexist here.

[PeaceNikki]

133. Ha.

You call me an idiot and a moron then accuse me of "creating a fight"!?

Classic.

[Prophet 451]

137. Oh sod this, welcome to Ignore

Population: You

Feel free to have the last word to yourself.

[babydollhead]

135. ABORTION: let the pregnant decide

the question has never been about whats ethical or not, the question is...Why make it illegal and unsafe? Women will throw themselves down stairs, jam hangers into their wombs, poison themselves, and get butchered in order to end an unwanted pregnancy. If you can't comprehend what it's like for someone who has been molested, raped, drugged, or had sex forced on them without being old enough or educated enough to know that fucking equals how babies are made, thank your lucky stars. Every variation on this theme is being acted out in all corners of the world every day. I hope I will never have to make the choice to end an unwanted pregnancy, as long as I am fertile, the risk exists. Abortions will happen as long as women can get pregnant.

[Prophet 451]

139. And that was the point I was making

I do know what some of that is like but thankfully, I didn't have to worry about pregnancy. The point I made, and I thought I made it quite explicitly, is that abortion might be undesireable but it's also a necessity, that when I say I am opposed to abortion, I am saying I am opposed to the things which make abortion a necessity (rape, abuse, faulty contraception, etc).

[qwlauren35]

141. I think abortion is a wonderful, wonderful thing.

Abortion is painful. It's not something that any woman physically enjoys. You're sick for hours, if not days.

BUT!!!! For most single women who are sexually active, not interested in having children and have an "oops", abortion is a blessed miracle.

No, it's not a child. For some of us, it's an oops. For some of it it's an "Oh SHIT!" for some of us it's just a plain disaster. And abortion lets us put it behind us and get on with life.

Yes, maybe someday down the road, we might think of what might have been. But I think the percentage of women who want to go back, revisit that moment, and revise it, bringing the pregnancy to term... is just not that large.

Now, those of us who have aborted, would do it again, and don't feel a lot of remorse, are being silenced by all of these "Of course *I* would never choose to abort a child, but..."

Oh crap. Do you REALLY know that you would carry a pregnancy to term, no matter how it happened? Would you carry a pregnancy to term if you got drunk one night and ended up sleeping with someone whose name you don't even know... and ended up pregnant?

Would you carry a pregnancy to term if you knew that the father of the child might kill you for doing so? Or would abuse the child and you wouldn't have the courage to stop him?

The thing about abortion that is so key is that if you're very, very careful, NO ONE ELSE EVER NEEDS TO KNOW. It's your business, it's the solution you've chosen, and it's a part of your past, but not your present.

And I am TIRED, TIRED, TIRED of people trying to silence me because I think abortion is a good thing, and think it's an option that more women should consider. I am not "pro-choice". I *AM* pro-abortion. Stop denying that I exist.

And stop saying that I'm insane.

[PeaceNikki]

142. Well said.

:thumbsup:

Abortion is a moral and positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, and protects families.

[Prophet 451]

143. I didn't say you were insane

I said that no sane person is pro-abortion and I don't think you are. You've just said that it's painful and something no woman physically enjoys. Are you really pro-abortion, do you think more women should have abortions rather than not getting pregnant in the first place, do you leap out at pregnant women shouting "abort the spawn!" or proclaiming that all pregnancies should be aborted? I doubt you are. I suspect that, like most of us, you wish abortion were not necessary, accept that it is currently necessary and wish more women would at least consider the option. Am I wrong? As I said, the only person I ever knew who was genuinely pro-abortion actually was clinically insane. I've never known anyone else even claim to be.

The point I was making (that about half the replies either missed or ignored) is that abortion may be undesireable but the world we live in makes it a necessity. When I say I am anti-abortion, I am saying that I am opposed to the things which make abortion necessary (faulty contraception, rape, bad sex ed, human stupidity, etc).

[ArmedAmerican]

144. I'm anti-surgery, anti-antibiotics, anti-vegetables, and I'm not that keen on toothpaste either

In a perfect world I'd eat macaroni and cheese constantly, never work out, never get fat, never need surgery, never get sick, never have to brush my teeth and never have to get my teeth filled. So I guess we're in the same boat in that we both agree in a perfect world everything would be perfect. That was your point, right? Either that or I missed the point of your post.

[PeaceNikki]

145. Beautiful!

Welcome to DU.

[Prophet 451]

147. lol, partly

My point was twofold: That in a perfect world, abortion would be unnecessary and that being anti-abortion means (being logically consistent) that one needs to be anti- the things which make abortion necessary.

So yeah, I guess you kinda got my point.

[Quantess]

204. I wish women had to sit on nests and hatch babies out of eggs

Anyone willing to sit on a nest for 9 months really wants that baby! :rofl:

Welcome to DU!

[pitohui]

279. you could just buy an incubator set to the right temperature

actually i don't understand why we don't get some research into something like this

it is ridiculous that in this day and age, a person should have to walk around with another person growing out of their body for an entire 9 months

if birds were civilized, no one would be sitting on the nest, a machine would be doing the grunt work and the world would be far better run and a lot more fair to the females as well as the males since there could be no excuses made to argue for females being inferior, no periods, no menopause, no pregnancy, no post partum depression...the list goes on to the health problems caused by doing it the way mammals do it

we really need to get some better technology, if i ran the world, there would definitely be some research going on in this area

how did we get to the 21st century w. so little progress????


especially as we DO have the example of the birds to prove that there is a much better way

[qwlauren35]

180. I'll just go back to your original statement.

Personally, I am 100% comfortable with being called pro-abortion.

And I accept that you're not comfortable with the fact that I define myself that way.

So, we must agree to disagree on that one.

But definitely, I hope that some day, birth control, for men and women, will be perfected. I am happy to agree on that. Fool-proof, easy, no side effects, unnoticeable, affordable, over-the-counter.

For women, I just want the shot to be perfected.

For guys... because I know how you are... I think a birth control pill or shot that made your member larger, your orgasms slightly longer and the "recharge" time shorter... would be something you would take pretty consistently.

Some day...

[Prophet 451]

194. LOL, I think you underestimate us

I always used to be terrified of causing my other half to become pregnant (that has been surgically prevented now) and of my friends, I'd say about a third are the same way.

[qwlauren35]

285. No, I don't underestimate you at all.

Some men are extremely conscientious about birth control, either out of respect for their partners, abhorrence of unwanted, unplanned children, fear of disease, perhaps some combination of the three, or some other very good reason.

Let's say 1/3 of all men feel that way! :-)

But there's another group that is ambivalent, another group that just refuses to think about it at all (it's her responsibility)...

And sadly, a last group that thinks that getting women pregnant is a sign of manhood, and they are happy to sire little bastards all over town, and financially/emotionally care for none of them.

It's middle group that might be swayed by a "combo pill". But as long as there are enough women who will sleep with the men in the last group, population control ain't gonna happen.

[Prophet 451]

287. Sadly, you're probably right there

In our case, we have the combined parenting instincts of an almond and personally, I'd hate to inflict my mental illness on a child.

[Mandate My Ass]

146. I'm a chick, and I'm anti-murder of pregnant women by sperm donors & others

Remember Laci Peterson, that gleefully pregnant woman happily awaiting the birth of her first-born son by her adoring husband?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/Story?id=522184&page=1

Why Pregnant Women Are Targeted
Expectant Moms Are Vulnerable to Both Male and Female Attackers

A study published in the March 2005 edition of the American Journal of Public Health found that homicide was a leading cause of death among pregnant women in the United States between 1991 and 1999. Data taken from the Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that the pregnancy-associated homicide ratio was 1.7 per 100,000 live births.


A 2001 study published by the Journal of the American Medical Association said 20 percent of Maryland women who died during pregnancy were murdered. Researchers found the same trend in New York from 1987-1991 and in the Chicago area from 1986-1989. According to the CDC, approximately 324,000 pregnant women are hurt by an intimate partner or former partner each year.

Experts say that while pregnant women are more commonly targeted by men -- particularly spouses, boyfriends or exes -- they also need to be wary of other women. Each has very different reasons for targeting expectant mothers.

When will we see 100+ response threads on DU about this tragic and all-too-common topic?

[Prophet 451]

148. I didn't know it was common

While I agree entirely that it's tragic and I'm shocked that it's common, what does it have to do with what I wrote?

[Mandate My Ass]

150. I'm shocked that you can't see the connection between the two

while abortion is sad and tragic to you -- the common slaughtering of women (and their precious fetuses) by the very people who should protect them at all costs -- perplexes you?

You said you wanted to see all the causes of abortion obliterated, but the fact that pregnant women (and their precious fetuses) are often murdered at the hands of those who should most want to protect them, is no big deal to you. :shrug:

[Prophet 451]

153. OK, now I'm with you

It's an attempt to claim that I value women only as incubators for their young, got it.


My OP was about abortion, this post is about murder. Yes, i have a problem with murder. Should I list everything I have a problem with, because that could take a while? While I agree that murder is tragic and I am genuinely shocked that murder of pregnant women is common, I still don't see a connection and the continuing effort to paint me as some rampant misogynist who views women as walking baby-factories just because I don't jump up and shout "ABORTION, HOORAY!" is both misplaced and insulting. About two-thirds of the people who've posted on this thread seem to have failed basic reading comprehension because they are repeatedly trying to twist a post that was defending the necessity of legal abortion into a statement of the exact opposite.

If that wasn't what you were insinuating, I apologise. I'm just kind of touchy after having read people all evening trying to claim things I didn't write and accuse me of views that I know damn well I don't hold.

[Mandate My Ass]

155. Life -- it's a beatiful choice.

Except for women who "choose" to bring a pregnancy to term, and whose chances of being brutally slain become much, much higher.

IMHO, any discussion of abortion rights should include an informed discussion of what significant danger women put themselves in when they decide to carry a pregnancy to term, whether or not the sperm donor is their husband, SO, BF, lover or stranger.

This is not an effort to paint you or anybody else as a misogynist, it's an attempt to educate anybody who cares to listen that pregnant women are often walking targets, knowingly or not.

Tragedies happen too often on both sides of the pregnancy issue and I just wish the two sides would concur that the death of a woman who voluntarily stayed pregnant is twice as tragic as those who decided to abort and lived to tell the tale.

[Prophet 451]

158. I'll agree with that

Thing is, I honestly can't figure out what thought process would lead to such a crime and therefore, how to prevent it. Most murders, I don't understand them but I can at least comprehend the thought processes that drive them. There's usually a train of logic there, however twisted or sick it might be, it's usually possible to comprehend what the murderer was trying to achieve. Sometimes it's greed or revenge or their own enjoyment (thankfully, those are rare) or even just removing a source of irritation and I suppose that if the woman and her killer are somehow connected, the crime might fit into one of those categories. But a stranger?

We can't prevent these crimes until we understand why they happen and this is one that baffles me.

[ArmedAmerican]

169. here's why you got the responses you did

What you said fell somewhere between unclear and contradictory.

First you said you're anti-abortion. You must be aware that "anti-abortion" is synonymous with pro-life, anti-choice, abortion banning. You can't really expect it to be interpreted any other way, no matter how much you try to refine your position or redefine what "anti-abortion" means to you in this particular thread.

If you meant "I dislike abortion", or "abortion makes me sad", or "it sure sucks that abortion is necessary sometimes, huh?" then you should have said that instead. Everyone can agree with that, because nobody has ever supported recreational abortion. It's not one of the more popular extreme sports. Everyone dislikes abortion, nobody enjoys it any more than anyone enjoys open heart surgery. There are a lot of reasons abortion is not pleasant, but not being pleasant or our disliking it is not reason enough to disapprove of it, to approve banning it. There are plenty of reasons that make it necessary just as there are plenty of reasons that make open heart surgery necessary.

If your point really was to say that abortion is a bummer, well yeah, that's stating the obvious. You could also have added that kittens are cute and mean people suck. It's not a perfect world, never has been and never will be. It's an imperfect world in which we live but it's the real world, so only real world solutions and analogies are relevant to our existence in it, and the choices we make in it.

The thing about unclear or apparently contradictory posts, especially ones with inflammatory thread titles, is that they can easily be mistaken for troll posts, which intentionally generate a lot of drama. Nobody wants that, and certainly you don't want people to think you're intending to do that.

[Prophet 451]

173. Thank you

You can put me in the "it sure sucks that abortion is necessary" camp. I thought (and goes to show my judgement) that the fact I'd laid out all those reasons why it could be necessary made that obvious. Guess not.

[PeaceNikki]

176. In addition (since OP is ignoring me now), it propogates the stigma that abortion is a "bad"

thing done as a result of "bad actions" by "bad people". It lumps adults who have consensual, heat of the moment sex in with rape and impending death and shit. That's where the tone of the OP can evoke such emotion.

We need to take the emotion out of it and the judgment out of it and understand that it is a private health care decision between a woman and her doctor. Women can and should be trusted to make it privately without being made to feel "dumb" for actions or need to justify the decision with anyone but herself.

The OP comes off as condescending and judgmental and leaves the reader with the impression that the decision is bad under the premise that what causes it is bad. Bullshit. If you think rape sucks, then start a thread saying rape sucks. If you think abstinence-only programs suck, start a thread stating they suck. If you think health care and social support programs suck, say they suck.

Abortion is the thing that helps women when these sucky things occur. It's the saving grace, liberation and safe option.

[MadMaddie]

154. Prophet 451 you have put into print what a lot of people

feel! I applaud you for sharing it with us!

[AwakeAtLast]

159. I wish birth control pills were covered by insurance like Viagra

That's not too much to ask, is it? :shrug:

[Prophet 451]

160. Fully agreed

I was bloody amazed to hear that they weren't covered. Here, if they're prescribed, you don't even pay the minimal contribution to drug costs that we pay for everything else. I mean, insurance shouldn't be necessary anyway but the disparity between those two just makes the whole game ridiculous.

[Jed Dilligan]

161. Why do you even think about it or mention it?

It's a women's health issue that has been discussed far too much in this country. Give it a rest. The only people who need to be discussing abortion are sex ed. teachers and students and pregnant women and the people they choose to go to for advice.

[Prophet 451]

165. Because I watched the debate earlier and it came up n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

178. Because jackasses keep buying into the idea

that it's any of their business. That's WHY politicians continue to discuss it uselessly.

[Hugabear]

162. As a guy, it is not my decision to make. EVER.

This is a decision that ONLY the woman affected can make. This isn't something that you (the OP) and I will never EVER have to face ourselves, so how can we possibly know what it's like.

[Prophet 451]

166. Perhaps by asking them?

You seem to be under a misapprehension. The OP was a defence of legal abortion. Nevertheless, not having a uterus doesn't disqualify me from having an opinion, I have an opinion on virtually everything.

[Flying Dream Blues]

181. Thank you! nt

[Lorentz]

171. Everyone is playing a semantics game to make themselves feel better about their stance.

If you are not anti-abortion, you are pro-abortion. Suck it up. It doesn't mean that you WANT abortions, it means that you will accept the procedure as someone's personal choice and/or a medically necessary one (e.g. ektopic pregnancy).

There's nothing wrong with being "pro-abortion". Don't let the right-wing scare you out of using the words.

[Prophet 451]

174. Actually, I was trying to make a point

which was, as one other poster put it, "it sure sucks that abortion is necessary". I thought laying out all those reasons why abortion might be needed would have made it clear that I was defending teh legality of abortion, not condemning it.

[Lorentz]

175. I think most people missed your point and got caught up in not trying to sound "immoral."

[davepc]

184. a wise woman once said "Safe, Legal, and Rare"

[Prophet 451]

197. And hopefully, it gets rarer and rarer

What I'd like to see is that as we solve the things which cause abortion to be necessary, it gradually becomes rarer and rarer until eventually, it falls into the category of obsolete.

[Mimosa]

190. It's your right to feel the way you do and this woman respects your POV

Prophet, I understand and respect where you're coming from. I've known a couple of young women who were pregnant in their teens and had abortion pushed upon them by mothers who 'knew best' and didn't want to cope with the conundrums presented by their daughters having pregnancies and the prospect of the daughters giving birth to kids they couldn't 'support.' They wanted their girls to 'get rid of the problem and get on with their lives.' One of the girls suffered so much from the abortion she could never have a child later. The other girl felt depression and guilt and ended up getting pregnant and married a year and a half later.

In the latter case my husband and myself, then younger, had offered to adopt the niece's baby if she bore it. That would have been the best solution. My sister told me 'it would hurt ***** too much to have the baby and give it away' But it wouldn't 'hurt' to have it sucked out of her very body? I didn't argue the point: it was too volatile.

I've also known married women with 1 or 2 children who didn't feel they could support a second or third child and got rid of the unplanned inconvenient pregnancies.

I liked Hillary Clinton all the better when she said abortion is "tragic." When we admit it, we're all better for it.

Prophet, ever since I was 14 I realised over-population is a terrible thing for the balance on our dear Mother Earth. There are too many people for dwindling resources. I think contraception is a good thing and I think adoption is a loving thing to do. Being life-affirming is being good. I understand where you're coming from.

But women must learn, know and make their choices. I appreciate it when men realise they have something to do with making new people.

The abortion issue should not ever be a POLITICAL wedge issue. Abortion should not be illegal if it is freely chosen. If a boyfriend's mom poses as a girl's mother and helps obtain an abortion that should be illegal. Ultimately it has to be a woman's choice no matter what the consequences are.

[Prophet 451]

196. No, it shouldn't be illegal

I just wish it wasn't necessary and after that, it becomes a moot point.

I'm no longer sure why I started this. I was intending to make a point to those pro-lifers here (and there are a few) that it is necessary for abortion to be legal and safe, maybe to remind people that a gay can have an opinion on teh subject that is more complex than "for" or "against" or even just to say "it sucks that abortion is needed". So few understood what i was saying, some demonised me for just having an opinion (and I have an opinion on virtually everything) and a surprising number wanted to think I was saying the exact opposite, that i wonder why I bothered trying to explain a nuanced view at all.

[Extend a Hand]

206. I think it's highly unlikely

that depression and guilt were physical consequenses of a D&C procedure. It's way more likely that a woman experiencing depression and guilt following an abortion is a victem were of idiotic social/religious norms that have been used to repress and control women for centuries.

[Mimosa]

215. Unlikely? Are you a psychiatrist?

sad_one, denying that women of any age sometimes experience post-abortion and guilt is odd. How many women have you known who have had abortions? Sisters? Cousins? Friends? You certainly haven't worked in counseling.

The procedure is physically and emotionally stressful, hardly a breeze. Women who have gone through childbirth have grieved to me about the coldness, the harshness of the abortion procedure and the depression afterwards. It's common, not rare. And it does not come from social/religious norms. Some women who go into denial about their sadness re:an abortion sublimate and start drinking or doing drugs. It happens. Nothing in life is without consequences.

Really good sex education as well as teaching girls to value themselves before puberty would be helpful to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

[REP]

217. Dulicate

[REP]

218. Abortion doesn't harm women. Here's some peer-reviewed studies

I know this isn't the same as your anecdotal bullshit you heard it somewhere from a friend of a friend's cousin that abortion is really, reaalllly bad, because these are peer-reviewed studies that shows that abortion does not harm women.

Abortion doesn't affect well-being, study says

New York Times (as printed in the San Jose Mercury 2/12/97)

Abortion does not trigger lasting emotional trauma in young women who
are psychologically healthy before they become pregnant, an eight-year
study of nearly 5,300 women has shown. Women who are in poor shape
emotionally after an abortion are likely to have been feeling bad about
their lives before terminating their pregnancies, the researchers said.

The findings, the researchers say, challenge the validity of laws
that have been proposed in many states, and passed in several, mandating
that women seeking abortions be informed of mental health risks.

The researchers, Dr. Nancy Felipe Russo, a psychologist at Arizona
State University in Tempe, and Dr. Amy Dabul Marin, a psychologist at
Phoenix College, examined the effects of race and religion on the
well-being of 773 women who reported on sealed questionnaires that
they had undergone abortions, and they compared the results with the
emotional status of women who did not report abortions.

The women, initially 14 to 24 years old, completed questionnaires and
were interviewed each year for eight years, starting in 1979. In 1980
and in 1987, the interview also included a standardized test that
measures overall well-being, the Rosenberg Self-Esteem Scale.

"Given the persistent assertion that abortion is associated with
negative outcomes, the lack of any results in the context of such a
large sample is noteworthy," the researchers wrote. The study took
into account many factors that can influence a woman's emotional
well-being, including education, employment, income, the presence of
a spouse and the number of children.

Higher self-esteem was associated with being employed, having a
higher income, having more years of education and bearing fewer children,
but having had an abortion "did not make a difference," the researchers
reported. And the women's religious affiliations and degree of involvement
with religion did not have an independent effect on their long-term
reaction to abortion. Rather, the women's psychological well-being before
having abortions accounted for their mental state in the years after the
abortion, the researchers said..

In considering the influence of race, the researchers again found
that the women's level of self-esteem before having abortions was the
strongest predictor of their well-being after an abortion.

"Although highly religious Catholic women were slightly more likely
to exhibit post-abortion psychological distress than other women, this
fact is explained by lower pre-existing self-esteem," the researchers
wrote in the current issue of Professional Psychology: Research and
Practice, a journal of the American Psychological Association.

Overall, Catholic women who attended church one or more times a week,
even those who had not had abortions, had generally lower self-esteem
than other women, although within the normal range, so it was hardly
surprising that they also had lower self-esteem after abortions, the
researchers said in interviews.

Gail Quinn, executive director of anti-abortion activities for the
United States Catholic Conference, said the findings belied the
experience of post-abortion counselors. She said, "While many women
express `relief' following an abortion, the relief is transitory."
In the long term, the experience prompts "hurting people to seek the
help of post-abortion healing services," she said.

The president of the National Right to Life Committee, Dr. Wanda
Franz, who earned her doctorate in developmental psychology, challenged
the researchers' conclusions. She said their assessment of self-esteem
"does not measure if a woman is mentally healthy," adding, "This requires
a specialist who performs certain tests, not a self-assessment of how
the woman feels about herself."

The Relationship of Abortion to Well-being: Do Race and Religion Make a Difference?
Nancy Felipe Russo and Amy J. Dabul
Professional Psychology, Research and Practice, 1997, Vol. 28, No , 23-31

Relationships of abortion and childbearing to well-being were examined for 1,189 Black and 3,147 White women. Education, income, and having a work role were positively and independently related to well-being for all women. Abortion did not have an independent relationship to well-being, regardless of race or religion, when well-being before becoming pregnant was controlled. These findings suggest professional psychologists should explore the origins of women's mental health problems in experiences predating their experience of abortion, and they can assist psychologists in working to ensure that mandated scripts from 'informed consent' legislation do not misrepresent scientific findings.


RUSSO, NANCY FELIPE
ZIERK, K.
Abortion, Childbearing, and Women's Well-Being
Professional Psychology, Research and Practice 23 (1992): 269-280. Also, http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research5.asp
Cohort(s): NLSY79
ID Number: 4029
Publisher: American Psychological Association (APA)

This study is based on a secondary analysis of NLSY interview data from 5,295 women who were interviewed annually from 1979 to 1987. Among this group 773 women were identified in 1987 as having at least one abortion, with 233 of them reporting repeat abortions. Well-being was assessed in 1980 and 1987 by the Rosenberg Self-Esteem Scale. The researchers used analysis of variance (ANOVA) and multiple regression to examine the combined and separate contributions of preabortion self-esteem, contextual variables (education, employment, income, and marital status), childbearing (being a parent, numbers of wanted and unwanted children) and abortion (having one abortion, having repeat abortions, number of abortions, time since last abortion) to women's post abortion self-esteem




Most Women Do Not Feel Distress, Regret After Undergoing Abortion, Study Says



The majority of women who choose to have legal abortions do not experience regret or long-term negative emotional effects from their decision to undergo the procedure, according to a study published in the June issue of the journal Social Science & Medicine, NewsRx.com/Mental Health Weekly Digest reports. Dr. A. Kero and colleagues in the Department of Clinical Sciences, Obstetrics and Gynecology at University Hospital in Umea, Sweden, interviewed 58 women at periods of four months and 12 months after the women's abortions. The women also answered a questionnaire prior to their abortions that asked about their living conditions, decision-making processes and general attitudes toward the pregnancy and the abortion. According to the study, most women "did not experience any emotional distress post-abortion"; however, 12 of the women said they experienced severe distress immediately after the procedure. Almost all of the women said they felt little distress at the one-year follow-up interview. The women who said they experienced no post-abortion distress had indicated prior to the procedure that they opted not to give birth because they "prioritized work, studies, and/or existing children," according to the study. According to the researchers, "almost all" of the women said the abortion was a "relief or a form of taking responsibility," and more than half of the women said they experienced positive emotional experiences after the abortion such as "mental growth and maturity of the abortion process" (NewsRx.com/Mental Health Weekly Digest, 7/12).

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cf...

The psychological sequelae of therapeutic abortion--denied and completed

PK Dagg
Department of Psychiatry, Mount Sinai Hospital, Toronto, Ont., Canada.

OBJECTIVE: The purpose of this article is to review the available literature on the psychological sequelae of therapeutic abortion, addressing both the issue of the effects of the abortion on the woman involved and the effects on the woman and on the child born when abortion is denied. METHOD: Papers reviewed were initially selected by using a Medline search. This procedure resulted in 225 papers being reviewed, which were further selected by limiting the papers to those reporting original research. Finally, studies were assessed as to whether or not they used control groups or objective, validated symptom measures. RESULTS: Adverse sequelae occur in a minority of women, and when such symptoms occur, they usually seem to be the continuation of symptoms that appeared before the abortion and are on the wane immediately after the abortion. Many women denied abortion show ongoing resentment that may last for years, while children born when the abortion is denied have numerous, broadly based difficulties in social, interpersonal, and occupational functions that last at least into early adulthood. CONCLUSIONS: With increasing pressure on access to abortion services in North America, nonpsychiatrist physicians and mental health professionals need to keep in mind the effects of both performing and denying therapeutic abortion. Increased research into these areas, focusing in particular on why some women are adversely affected by the procedure and clarifying the relationship issues involved, continues to be important.
Am J Psychiatry 1991; 148:578-585
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/14...


Psychological sequelae of medical and surgical abortion at 10-13 weeks gestation.

Ashok PW, Hamoda H, Flett GM, Kidd A, Fitzmaurice A, Templeton A.

From the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Aberdeen, Aberdeen Royal Infirmary, Aberdeen, UK.

Background. Although not much research comparing the emotional distress following medical and surgical abortion is available, few studies have compared psychological sequelae following both methods of abortion early in the first trimester of pregnancy. The aim of this review was to assess the psychological sequelae and emotional distress following medical and surgical abortion at 10-13 weeks gestation. Methods. Partially randomized patient preference trial in a Scottish Teaching Hospital was conducted. The hospital anxiety and depression scales were used to assess emotional distress. Anxiety levels were also assessed using visual analog scales while semantic differential rating scales were used to measure self-esteem. A total of 368 women were randomized, while 77 entered the preference cohort. Results. There were no significant differences in hospital anxiety and depression scales scores for anxiety or depression between the groups. Visual analog scales showed higher anxiety levels in women randomized to surgery prior to abortion (P < 0.0001), while women randomized to surgical treatment were less anxious after abortion (P < 0.0001). Semantic differential rating scores showed a fall in self-esteem in the randomized medical group compared to those undergoing surgery (P = 0.02). Conclusions. Medical abortion at 10-13 weeks is effective and does not increase psychological morbidity compared to surgical vacuum aspiration and hence should be made available to all women undergoing abortion at these gestations.
Acta Obstet Gynecol Scand. 2005 Aug;84(8):761-6.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retri...


Post abortion syndrome: myth or reality?

Koop CE.

What are the health effects upon a woman who has had an abortion? In his letter to President Reagan, dated January 9, 1989, Surgeon General C. Everett Koop wrote that in order to find an answer to this question the Public Health Service would need from 10 to 100 million dollars for a comprehensive study.

PIP: At a 1987 briefing for Right to Life leaders, the author--US Surgeon General C Everett Koop--was requested to prepare a comprehensive report on the health effects (mental and physical) of induced abortion. To prepare for this task, the author met with 27 groups with philosophical, social, medical, or other professional interests in the abortion issue; interviewed women who had undergone this procedure; and conducted a review of the more than 250 studies in the literature pertaining to the psychological impact of abortion. Every effort was made to eliminate the bias that surrounds this controversial issue. It was not possible, however, to reach any conclusions about the health effects of abortion. In general, the studies on the psychological sequelae of abortion indicate a low incidence of adverse mental health effects. On the other hand, the evidence tends to consist of case studies and the few nonanecdotal reports that exist contain serious methodological flaws. In terms of the physical effects, abortion has been associated with subsequent infertility, a damaged cervix, miscarriage, premature birth, and low birthweight. Again, there are methodological problems. 1st, these events are difficult to quantify since most abortions are performed in free-standing clinics where longterm outcome is not recorded. 2nd, it is impossible to casually link these adverse outcomes to the abortion per se. Resolution of this question requires a prospective study of a cohort of women of childbearing age in reference to the variable outcomes of mating--failure to conceive, miscarriage, abortion, and delivery. Ideally, such a study would be conducted over a 5-year period and would cost approximately US$100 million
Health Matrix. 1989 Summer;7(2):42-4.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retri...

Psychological sequelae of induced abortion.

Romans-Clarkson SE.

Department of Psychological Medicine, University of Otago Medical School, Dunedin, New Zealand.

This article reviews the scientific literature on the psychological sequelae of induced abortion. The methodology and results of studies carried out over the last twenty-two years are examined critically. The unanimous consensus is that abortion does not cause deleterious psychological effects. Women most likely to show subsequent problems are those who were pressured into the operation against their own wishes, either by relatives or because their pregnancy had medical or foetal contraindications. Legislation which restricts abortion causes problems for women with unwanted pregnancies and their doctors. It is also unjust, as it adversely most affects lower socio-economic class women.

PIP: A review of empirical studies on the psychological sequelae of induced abortion published since 1965 revealed no evidence of adverse effects. On the other hand, this review identified widespread methodological problems--improper sampling, lack of data on women's previous psychiatric history, a scarcity of prospective study designs, a lack of specified follow-up times or evaluation procedures, and a failure to distinguish between legal, illegal, and spontaneous abortions--that need to be addressed by psychiatric epidemiologists. Despite these methodological weaknesses, all 34 studies found significant improvement rather than deterioration in mental status after induced abortion. There was also a high degree of congruity in terms of predictors of adverse reactions after abortion--ambivalence about the procedure, a history of psychosocial instability, poor or absent family ties, psychiatric illness at the time of the pregnancy termination, and negative attitudes toward abortion in the broader society. As expected, criminal abortion is more likely than legal abortion to be associated with guilt, and women who have been denied therapeutic abortions report significantly greater psychosocial difficulties than those who have been granted abortion on the grounds of their precarious mental health. Overall, the research clearly attests that abortion carried out at a woman's request has no deleterious psychiatric consequences. Problems arise only when the woman undergoes pregnancy termination as a result of pressure from others. Legislation that undermines the ability of the pregnant woman to assess herself the impact of an unwanted pregnancy on her future impedes mental health and should be opposed by the psychiatric profession.
Aust N Z J Psychiatry. 1989 Dec;23(4):555-65
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retri...

Psychological and social aspects of induced abortion.

Handy JA.

The literature concerning psychosocial aspects of induced abortion is reviewed. Key areas discussed are: the legal context of abortion in Britain, psychological characteristics of abortion-seekers, pre- and post-abortion contraceptive use, pre- and post-abortion counselling, the actual abortion and the effects of termination versus refused abortion. Women seeking termination are found to demonstrate more psychological disturbance than other women, however this is probably temporary and related to the short-term stresses of abortion. Inadequate contraception is frequent prior to abortion but improves afterwards. Few women find the decision to terminate easy and most welcome opportunities for non-judgemental counselling. Although some women experience adverse psychological sequelae after abortion the great majority do not. In contrast, refused abortion often results in psychological distress for the mother and an impoverished environment for the ensuing offspring.
Br J Clin Psychol. 1982 Feb;21 (Pt 1):29-41.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retri...


In other words, your claims are nothing but lies, plain and simple.

[Extend a Hand]

233. Many

I've known many, many women who have had abortions, including me. In addition to my extensive anecdotal experience, study after study has shown that the overwhelming reaction to abortion is RELIEF, NOT guilt and depression.

Those women who DO feel guilt and depression, almost always are the victims of religious and family pressure. If you want to talk to women that feel guilt and depression, take a visit to some of the adoption boards and chat with a few birth mothers, particularly the older ones that were forced to bear children and give them up in closed adoptions before abortion was legal. Relinquishing a baby that is carried to term is FAR, FAR harder on a women than abortion.

Those religious groups that pretend to offer counseling to pregnant women in an effort to reduce abortions by attempting to guilt pregnant women into carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term REALLY piss me off to no end because the are SO harmful to women.

I hope you haven't been counseling women on abortion, given your appalling ignorance on the scientific research.

[ArmedAmerican]

248. doh...

...I misread which post you were replying to.

[Extend a Hand]

249. clearly the poster I was responding too

didn't bother to read it.

[uppityperson]

292. Many are relieved, few are depressed. I've known many and worked providing them.

And doing followup in a small community yrs back. I know many women who had them and only very rarely were they depressed by having the abortion. Some depressed at the situation they were in, but not for having an abortion. Or more than 1.

I agree that good sex ed and valuation issues would help, but sometimes there is a need for an abortion and the choice for a legal medical one vs back alley one needs to be kept a legal choice.

[Lucian]

201. I'm pro-choice. Not pro-abortion.

I don't know why wingnuts can't figure that one out. They both are very different from one another.

[Lorentz]

207. No such differentiation. You are pro-abortion if you are pro-choice.

Sorry to break it to you: pro-abortion means that you will consciously opt for abortion as an outcome of a pregnancy. That's what you are if you are pro-choice.

Tough luck that "pro-abortion" has entered the vernacular as per the right-wing definition. Say what you want to make yourself feel better, but that's what you are. Face it, accept it, and move on. And don't give a shit about the definition of terms.

[Lucian]

209. I can see your stay here will be short.

And no, pro-choice does NOT mean pro-abortion. Maybe if you were to use your critical thinking skills, you'd realize that.

[Lorentz]

212. If you allow abortion, under ANY circumstance, you are pro-abortion.

Sorry you can't accept that fact. You can play with words all you want to make yourself feel better about your position. But at the end of the day, pro-choice is pro-abortion. Stick that critical thinking skill where it's needed.

Oh, and by the way: I am pro-choice/abortion.

[fudge stripe cookays]

314. I call bullshit.

Anyone who actually knows what the mindset is about, calls it what it is. CHOICE.

I have made BOTH choices. I hope you're gone. But you weren't nice enough to provide us a profile so we could see where your REAL agenda lies. I'm hoping it sports a nice fat tombstone at this point, even though it's not visible to us.

[JerseygirlCT]

262. ABSOLUTELY incorrect

Hope you enjoyed your stay here, btw.

Pro-choice means exactly what it says: the choice is the woman's. She may opt for abortion; she might not. But those of us who are proudly pro-choice defend her right to make that decision for herself.

I would not choose abortion for myself, for instance. But I'll be damned if I think I have the right to make a decision one way or the other for any other woman. My choice is my choice; hers is hers.

[uppityperson]

293. Pro-choice is for keeping the choice of a legal medical abortion vs back alley one legal.

There have always been abortions. Women who had the money or connections could always get a hygienic medical one, when women who didn't had to go with illegal back alley ones. Roe v Wade made it possible for all to have the choice of a hygienic legal abortion. THAT is what Choice is about. Not about having an abortion, but the choice of how.

[Codeine]

211. Fuck that. I'm totally pro-abortion.

People fuck up and shit happens; the idea that a simple, safe medical procedure can spare a young woman from the lifetime of baggage that comes with an unwanted pregnancy makes it a wonderful thing. Creating all this pseudo-moral foofaraw around it and elevating it to the status of "evil" is the real root of the problem; we've created an environment where a legal medical act is the source of emotional pain.

That's the evil!

That's the source of the trauma!

Not the fucking abortion. That's less than nothing, or it should be, in a sane world.

[DangerDave921]

224. Can't say less than nothing

Early in the pregnancy, it seems that that little sac of cells is a more minor thing. It just strikes me as more of a medical procedure at that point. But man -- you get to 7 or 8 months and there is this little baby in there bobbing around. I think that's where the moral judgment gets injected into the mix.

There is no bright dividing line, but early abortion doesn't really bother me. But I can't stomach the idea of late abortion when there is a fully formed baby in there. In that case, you can't say that abortion is less than nothing. You do have to take into account the inconvenient fact that there's a baby in there late in the pregnancy.

[pitohui]

276. abortions aren't performed at 8 months except to save the life of the mother

so i don't know the hell you're drooling about

[uppityperson]

295. thank you pitohui.

[Codeine]

310. Seriously, that's just stupid.

The number of abortions occurring at that late stage are so infinitesimal as to be nearly non-existent, and those few that are performed then are entirely emergency-healthy related.

[Paladin]

311. You'd Think Somebody Claiming To Be A Medical Malpractice Attorney...

...would be aware of something like that, now wouldn't you?

[MissB]

323. My opinion is that poster is not what they claim to be.

[fudge stripe cookays]

315. Let me spell this out for you AGAIN...

Get it through your thick skull...ALL of you who have bought into the partial birth NONSENSE....

The ONLY women having abortions at 8 months are women who WANTED their pregnancies more than anything in the entire world. They have been told by their doctors that their fetus has abnormalities...horrible, disfiguring, and in most cases, will lead to painful death for the child before a year to ten years has elapsed. In most of these cases, these women may DID if they give birth!

These babies will end up malformed, blind, missing limbs, missing MAJOR VITAL ORGANS, and other horrific conditions.

Now, I don't know about you, but the thought of having to put a child through that much pain that might not even live to puberty is very intimidating. And I don't know how your health insurance coverage looks right about now, but most couples do not have the wherewithal-- mentally, emotionally, or financially to care for a child with that much that needs to be cared for.

WOMEN DO NOT JUST WAKE UP AT EIGHT MONTHS AND SAY "I think I'll go have an abortion today!" These are children who were wanted, needed, and their mothers are distraught with grief. That's not INCONVENIENT pal, it's a nightmare for them, but they are choosing to save that child a short, painful life.

[Book Lover]

214. I wish

Men embraced birth control.

[Prophet 451]

273. Well said n/t

[El Pinko]

230. I'm a guy and totally pro-abortion.

I'll qualify that by saying I'm for it, provided it's done early in the term, but personally, I'd rather a cell mass be sacrificed than for babies to be born to parents that are not equipped to raise them.

Wishing that abortion didn't exist is like wishing that we weren't brought into the world by fucking, or that we didn't have to shit and piss every day and wither up and die in a fairly short amount of time, but that's the breaks.

Abortion is the lesser of two evils in many cases, and if I had a pregnant teen daughter, I would MUCH rather she have an abortion than squander all of her opportunities on having a baby too soon.

It's too bad that a cell mass with the potential to be human someday has to be sacrificed, but goddamn it there are SIX BILLION+ people on Earth. We do not need more!

[Prophet 451]

272. Wishing that abortion didn't exist...

...is, to my mind, wishing that there were no faulty contraception, rape, poverty, sexual abuse, etc. That's what I was saying. That I am opposed to the things which cause abortion to be necessary. I was defending the legality of abortion as a necessity, not condemning it.

[El Pinko]

298. I understand that completely.

But I also tire of pro-choice people having to justify the legality of abortion by conceding that it is somehow an "evil", although a necessary one.

We may not be comfortable with it, but it is a net good.

[Kazak]

237. I'm Anti-Black-Market-Abortion...

Which is why I'm Pro-Choice.

[slampoet]

238. You're a guy? Call us when you grow up and become a man.

[Prophet 451]

283. Oh, do piss off

Impugning my masculity because you either disagree with or didn't understand what I was saying is a schoolyard game.

[slampoet]

289. I don't care about your poly sci. You are a self described "guy"....you made yourself what you are.

This has nothing to do with abortion. This has to do with you defeating yourself before you even speak because you describe yourself as a "guy".


If you really don't know how important semantics are in this then you really haven't grown up.

[Prophet 451]

290. Like I said, piss off n/t

[slampoet]

294. I crit your vocabulary and you prove my point.

I win.

[Prophet 451]

296. I Ignore you and don't give a shit n/t

[slampoet]

297. But you didn't ignore me. Now you can't even be depended on to do what you say.

Score two for me.


But i shouldn't be surprised. People who call themselves "a guy" are rarely dependable. Just ask anyone who hires people.

It's like they say... let the asshole have the last word.

[OnionPatch]

239. I think you have a right to feel this way.

Society as a whole makes most moral decisions and men are part of the whole reproduction thing, obviously.

I agree with everything you said. I am not one to think abortion is as okay as removing an ingrown toenail and I think those who do are in the minority on the left. There is definitely an valid moral issue here but the scariest part of their wanting to outlaw abortion is that the grounds they use will be "murder". Once that precedence is set, get ready for the uterus police investigating every miscarriage for foul play. Say good-bye to our most reliable birth-control forms. (They may on a rare occasion "kill" a fertilized egg.) It's all too frightening to imagine.

If conservatives would work toward the things you mention to lower abortion rates instead of forcing a law against it, I would be much more on their side of this issue.

[Time for change]

240. Very well said

Democratic politicians should read this.

[Neshanic]

242. "I can't even imagine what that's like". Correct. You are male, so therefore you have no say

about it unless it is YOUR baby that you are talking about.

What women have is called the right to their own body and their own decisions, without anyone telling them what they MUST do.

If you have a significant other that is going to have your baby, then that is beteween you and her. Nobody else. Ultimately though it is the woman with the baby that makes the decision.

If males had babies there would be drive thru service.

[Prophet 451]

288. And where have I said what women must do?

I have lamented the fact that abortion is necessary, I have defended it's legality as a necessity but I have not, at any point, said what any woman must do and I'm getting just a little sick of being accused of attitudes I know damn well I don't hold just because I happen to have testicles and a nuanced opinion.

[SpookyCat]

246. I am stunned by the responses/interpretations of this post...

I just spent a few minutes reading the OP being called ignorant, right wing, misogynist? I had to re read the OP again, because I had initially found it to be insightful, thoughtful, and welcome. I thought I must have missed something for it to provoke such open hostility.

But no, I didn't, and I've read other posts elsewhere by this OP and can't say I've ever seen anything to suggest to me that he means anything other than what he has said. And the fact that he gave us an insight into his own experiences and made himself vulnerable in doing so seems to be overlooked. Thank you Prophet for sharing with this forum something so deeply personal and painful.

I know that this issue is extremely provocative, and when you're dealing with such a personal issue people can get very angry very quickly, but if we can't discuss this civilly between ourselves, how on earth can we ever expect to reach a consensus with the other side? It makes me sad to see these attacks against "one of our own."

[Quantess]

263. Abortion is a topic that instantly causes high blood pressure

try bringing it up at a polite tea party, and see how long people keep their composure, or keep their voices down.

That's why this is a huge distraction that the McCain campaign is hoping will get voters sidetracked. We can discuss it, but everyone please remember that the economy is still the #1 topic of discussion right now. Don't stop talking about the economy!

[Prophet 451]

271. *hugs*

Thank you.

[spoony]

277. Indeed.

I thought the OP was perfectly reasonable, which apparently means I hate women and want them to die in alleys. I was, to say the least, surprised to learn this.

Sarcasm aside, well put Spooky. And Prophet.

[mainegreen]

324. There is some very evident lack of reading comprehension skills on display on this thread.

It's really very sad. If people can't take the time to read and understand a post, they really shouldn't bother replying.
What the OP posted made perfect sense, and I think you really hit something there about people attacking to quickly.

[Odin2005]

325. I am actually quite disturbed by such posts, actually

I am pro-choice because I consider abortion to be a necessary evil. These arguments that it is "just" a medical procedure churn my stomach.

[Hubert Flottz]

267. How can you be "pro-life" and pro-war?

How can you be "Pro-Life" and uphold the death penalty?

How can you be "Pro-Life" and be against every person in America having health care?

You can be "Pro-Life" and a hypocrite at the same time.

BTW, I'm a white male too.

[Prophet 451]

270. I subscribe to the "just war" theory

Essentially, just war theory states that a war can only be morally justified if the war would result in less loss of life than allowing the situation to continue. For example, the Taliban were so brutal that a war to remove them would have (in theory) claimed less lives than leaving them in power.

As far as the death penalty goes, I'm for the death penalty under very, very guidelines. Essentially, for the very few offenders who are so incredibly dangerous that we as a society simply cannot take even the slightest chance of them getting loose again.

I'm very much for universal healthcare though. I actually live in Britain, under the NHS and if you check my journal, you'll find a fair few posts about how much the US needs proper healthcare.

[Hubert Flottz]

284. Things that happen in "Just Wars" are very Anti-Life.

The Fire-bombing of Dresden
An eye-witness account

Since the facts of the combined USAF and RAF raids on Dresden became known, mostly through the novel 'Slaughterhouse Five' by Kurt Vonnegut, there has been great controversy as to why this appalling raid was considered necessary.

The city had no military targets to speak of, and it was known that it was packed with civilian refugees from the east. Here is an eye-witness account by Lothar (shown here with his sister), just nine years old, who survived.

It was February. 13th, 1945. I lived with my mother and sisters (13, 5 and 5 months old twins) in Dresden and was looking forward to celebrating my 10th birthday February l6th. My father, a carpenter, had been a soldier since 1939 and we got his last letter in August 1944. My mother was very sad to receive her letters back with the note: "Not to be found." We lived in a 3 room flat on the 4th floor in a working class region of our town. I remember celebrating Shrove Tuesday (February 13th) together with other children, The activities of the war in the east came nearer and nearer. Lots of soldiers went east and lots of refugees went west through our town or stayed there, also in the air raid night February13th/14th.

About 9:30 PM the alarm was given. We children knew that sound and got up and dressed quickly, to hurry downstairs into our cellar which we used as an air raid shelter. My older sister and I carried my baby twin sisters, my mother carried a little suitcase and the bottles with milk for our babies. On the radio we heard with great horror the news: "Attention, a great air raid will corne over our town!" This news I will never forget. More...

http://timewitnesses.org/english/~lothar.html

George Bush and Tony Blair caused an Unjust War in Iraq, based on lies. Bush, to this day, claims to be "Pro-Life"...I'm glad I don't have to live with that kind of thing.

[Prophet 451]

286. Yeah, I know

It must be said that a war satisfying the conditions for a Just War doesn't mean that every action pursued during that war will be justified. The firebombing of Dresden was an atrocity and the only reason it's not a war crime is that the laws of war at the time didn't cover such a contingency.

Iraq failed the criteria for a Just War, that's why so many theologians spoke against it.

[JetCityLiberal]

301. Great post.

I am a white male too and this is bullshit right wing flame bait that he posted.

Got the GOP talking points down well.

What happened to the fucking 'underground' here? This is right wing BS. Period.

I see the usual right wing idiots have shown up to defend him as well.

[w8liftinglady]

281. In Remembrance: Women Who Died from Illegal and Unsafe Abortions

http://www.now.org/issues/abortion/120904women-who-died.html

The seven women below are just a small representation of the countless women who have died because they did not have access to safe and legal abortions. Most of these women died before Roe v. Wade offered them a safe alternative. However, women continue to die and suffer injury due to current restrictions that particularly affect young women and poor women.

Our government is now controlled by conservative leaders who are extremely hostile to women's reproductive rights. If more retsictions on abortion are enacted, and especially if Roe v. Wade is overturned, this list of lives cut short could grow to include our daughters, sisters, mothers, best friends, wives, partners, granddaughters and other special women and girls...


Clara Bell Duvall
Dec. 23, 1896 - March 27, 1929
Clara Duvall, her husband and five children (ages 6 months to 12 years) were living in Pittsburgh, Pa., with her parents due to limited financial resources when she learned she was pregnant again. Clara attempted a self-abortion with a knitting needle. Her doctor, knowing she was seriously ill and in severe pain, delayed sending her to a hospital for several weeks. The Catholic hospital where she died chose to list the cause of death as "pneumonia."

Ruth Irene Friedl
Aug. 24, 1901 - Aug. 21, 1929
Denied a legal abortion though her pregnancy was diagnosed as life-threatening, Ruth Friedl attempted to self-abort by drinking a plant poison, ergot apiol. That night at the dinner table of their home in Denver, Colo., with her husband and two small children present, she collapsed and died.


Pauline Roberson Shirley
June 22, 1910 - August 22, 1940
Pauline Shirley and her six children were living with her mother in Arizona while her husband sought work in California. After an illegal abortion, she began to hemorrhage and was hospitalized. She needed massive transfusions. While Pauline's mother searched the community for donors, Pauline bled to death.



Vivian Campbell
December 12, 1925 - May 6, 1950
Vivian Campbell was the mother of two children ages five and three. She was newly separated from her husband when she realized she was pregnant. Sending her children to stay with her parents, she sought and obtained an illegal abortion. She sent for her husband, but by the time he arrived at the hospital it was too late. She died in agony of peritonitis.

Geraldine Santoro
August 16, 1935 - June 8, 1964
The photo of Geraldine Santoro dead on a hotel room floor has become a symbol for the horror of illegal abortion. Gerri, as she was known, lived on her family farm in Coventry, Conn., with her two daughters. At the age of 28, separated from her abusive husband, she became pregnant by another man, Clyde Dixon. Afraid that her husband would kill her if he found out, she and Dixon looked for ways to terminate her pregnancy. With no other options, they attempted to perform the procedure themselves. When the operation went awry, Dixon fled, leaving Santoro behind where she bled to death. A chambermaid found her body the next morning.


Rosie Jimenez
1950 - Oct. 3, 1977
A single mother with a 5-year-old daughter, Rosie Jimenez of McAllen, Texas, was a scholarship student six months away from her teaching credential. She was the first known victim of the Hyde Amendment, which cut off Medicaid funding for abortion to women on public assistance — women who by the government's own definition cannot afford health care. Too poor to pay for the procedure at a private clinic, she died in agony from a botched illegal abortion.


Becky Bell
August 24, 1971 - Sept. 16, 1988
At 17, Becky became a victim of an Indiana state law requiring parental consent for a minor to obtain an abortion. Unable to bring herself to disappoint her parents by telling them she was pregnant — or go before a judge to bypass the law — Becky sought an illegal abortion. When she became seriously ill, her parents rushed her to the hospital. In severe pain from a massive infection, Becky still could not tell them, and despite the efforts of the doctors, she died.



Sandy Rapp's song, "Remember Rose: A Song For Choice", recalls the story of Rosie Jimenez. It's a fitting soundtrack on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade. This version features vocals by feminist Congressmember Bella Abzug. Listen to "Remember Rose".

[JetCityLiberal]

302. You sound like all the right wing 'morans'

with this stupid post. What a load of BS crap.

Apologies DU Women, you deserve better than this shit.

Paul

on edit: and DU wonders why donations are down, this is misogyny 101 and bullshit to match.

"pro war" "evil" fuck off with this crap.

[Prophet 451]

312. Did you read it?

Did you understand it? I was defending the necessity of legal abortion, not condemning it. By saying that I am anti-abortion, I am saying that I am opposed to the things which make abortion necessary.

[DailyGrind51]

308. Prophet, I'm with ya, Bro! I bet a lot of the young women making the decision are against it too!

However, I can't imagine what it would be like to deal with that decision, and I have dealt with two cancer surgeries! I can't, in all good conscience, deny women the right to make that decision, and, if any friend or family member needed a ride to a clinic, I would be there for her and hold her hand, if she asked.

[litlady]

309. A friend in high school had two children from her uncle...

he raped her repeatedly for years. She already had a child with him by the time I met her (12). She was devastated emotionally but her family made her have the children. Many who knew her actually hoped she would have an abortion for the second child. Instead, she dropped out of high school and I never saw her again. I have no idea what happened to her. As long as there are people like her uncle, abortion must be there. This is why parental notification is so scary. That is why Palin's view is so deeply offensive. This story is one that I have thought about numerous times over the last decade. Sure, like Obama said in the final debate, most are not pro-abortion. But abortion is an absolute necessity in some cases and it needs to be available in every state. If only my friend had not been so afraid, her life may not have been essentially over.

[ibegurpard]

320. I'm a guy and I have no opinion on abortion

And consider it to be none of my business nor any of yours nor any of the government's.

[Odin2005]

322. This guy agrees with you 100%

Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.