My brethren and sistren, please go to church!

[xfundy]

Let's all go to church! Seriously, it's time to see for ourselves what they're saying and report them if/when they violate the IRS laws or foment hatred.

Anybody with me? Say GLORY!

[goddess40]

1. I already go but I don't think we have to worry about the UU's

But I'm with you all the way.

[LiberalEsto]

67. I'm a UU and we are so careful about this

in my congregation.

[garlicmilkshake]

2. I think that's a great idea! I've been considering it myself the last few weeks

although I haven't set foot in a church in 50 years. (Oh, except for my brother's wedding in 1978) :-)

[southpaw]

3. From another ex-fundie

You have my support in this endeavor.

I, however, will not likely be attending church anytime in the forseeable future.

A bit of advice... take a small video camera or a phone that captures video. At the very least, get audio recordings. Heresay won't hold up.

[TornadoTN]

4. Couldn't pay me enough to endure that fear-mongering and social control

Ugh - just thinking about it makes me physically ill. You'll have to find someone else who will take one for the team!

[cynatnite]

5. Haven't set foot in a church in ten years. I couldn't hack it then and I can't now n/t

[SoxFan]

6. Those of us who go to church...

can do without your self-righteous slumming, thank you.

[gratuitous]

16. And thank you

From a member of a liberal congregation who's seen more than his share of the self-righteous come through the doors with their own agenda that has nothing to do with building community and feeding the hungry and everything to do with drawing lines and determining that you or I are on the wrong side of it.

[SidneyCarton]

23. Thank you.

Not all of us, even in the more conservative sects, are raving lunatics seeking theocracy. Some of us are genuinely trying to serve our neighbors.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

47. Funny thing...not just Right Wing ideology in church that causes trouble

We are currently having a separation of church and state debate in my own LIBERAL church - this involves whether the church should continue to advertise (read promote) political events hosted by a very powerful local 3rd party that is borderline Communist but is also in lockstep with developers and real estate agencies... Some say if the church promotes this party's events, they have to promote other party's events, to avoid appearing partisan, and making members feel they are pressured to be on a certain side of the "line" of which you speak. Others don't see any problem...

[Two Americas]

84. well said

Thank you.

[southpaw]

22. I'm pretty sure the OP wasn't referring to progressive congregations

But you know that, don't you?

[SidneyCarton]

25. Of course the OP wasn't talking about progressive congregations,

But not all of us attend churches that have been properly vetted and considered "ideologically compatible with DU"

[southpaw]

27. I would hope that you would properly vet your own church

I sincerely hope you are not forced to attend a church that preaches beliefs incompatible to your own.

I've been in that situation, and it's hell. Of course, I didn't have much to pick from in the way of progressive congregations.

Once I saw the error of my ways, the cognitive dissonance vanished like phychic abilities at a James Randi event.

[SidneyCarton]

31. I am not forced to attend my church.

As to cognitive dissonance, I would be truly troubled if I ever found myself in a situation where there was absolutely none, such a situation would suggest that I had finally sunk deeply within my own delusions.

[SoxFan]

35. What do you consider "progressive"?

UU, Reform Judaism, and most Episcopal churches, I'll grant you.

But what about the United Church of Christ? It encompasses Jeremiah Wright, but it also includes a whole lot of very conservative small town Republicans in Maine and New Hampshire. My parents have a neighbor who is a UCC minister and this guy would never vote for a Democrat in a thousand years.

What about the Roman Catholic Church? Get beyond abortion, and you have a denomination that is downright left wing on the death penalty, poverty, foreign assistance, etc. Pretty much every Catholoc priest and religious I know leans Dem.

[southpaw]

37. Hard to say

I'm thinking in terms of individual congregations, not national or even international denominations.

I know UU and Reform Judiasm are pretty consistent from congregation to congregation. Episcopal, First Christian (Desciples of Christ) and Lutheran can vary pretty widely from one congregation to the next.

Catholicism is, as you point out, somewhat split on particular issues.

As an athiest former fundie, I find it difficult to understand how any denomination can claim to believe the bible, yet be pro-GLBT, pro-women's equality or pro-choice without either cherry-picking the bible to pieces or claiming only to follow the parts in red, which doesn't allow as much leeway as many people think.

[bobbolink]

63. NO< WE DON"T

[Common Sense Party]

66. Probably not, which is hypocritical.

Progressive churches preaching politics are just as guilty as conservative fundy churches who do it.

[bobbolink]

62. Amen.

The broad-brushing is just as damaging coming from "liberals" as it does from the fundies.

Enough!

[Ilsa]

7. Not just any church. Try the Southern Baptists,

evangelical presbyterians, Missouri synod lutherans, and some Roman Catholic churches. I don't know that they are more likely to say something political, but they are more likely to disagree with some of the Democratic platform.

[SammyWinstonJack]

8. Ah no thanks.

[Joiwind]

9. The Eastern Orthodox are OK

We've kind of learned our lesson about mixing politics with religion.

[knitter4democracy]

32. Yeah, we pray for the politicians, but we don't preach on them

Unless we're in Metropolitan Maximus's jurisdiction, and then we just sit there and listen to whatever he feels led to preach on. He visited during the war in Kosovo, and his sermon on the bombing of the churches on our Easter was quite something. He was pissed!

Our priest often pauses a bit after praying for the president and sighs. :)

[spoony]

10. So, spy on each other.

Nice.

[norepubsin08]

15. Yup I agree with this

in fact when Obama becomes president I think he should send IRS agents to act as worshippers in the fundie churches...get tight with the pastors and then bust their asses when they step over the 501 (c) 3 line!!!

[spoony]

21. Do you want him to tap their phones, too?

Why not, right? As long as we're the ones in power, why not act like Bush and company! Ideals and values be damned!

[conscious evolution]

43. No need for taps

When they are breaking the law right out in the open.
If taps are needed then get a warrant first.What is being said in open church services should be enough probable cause needed to secure a warrant.
The idea that a church should be exempt from prosecution for breaking laws is ridiculous.

[norepubsin08]

53. I'm with you 100%

[SidneyCarton]

28. Or better yet, we should just establish Unitarianism as the national church

And tax heavily all non-communicants? We've seen this before, the British had this system for nearly 300 years. It is one of several reasons why we have a First Amendment that specifically defends freedom of religion.

Tolerance does not require that we agree with the fundies, but it does require that we accept their right to worship. I agree that the encroachment of religious belief into the political arena has been harmful to our democracy, but a wholesale assault on conservative religious belief will not correct this problem.

If we want President Obama to restore the Constitution, this is not the way to start.

[norepubsin08]

39. Bullshit

these mother fucking fundie asshats have been given way too long a leash, it's time to rein these pieces of shit in. The only way to do that is to catch their sorry asses in the act and then squeeze them financially.

[SidneyCarton]

44. So what do you suggest my friend?

An inquisition?
A loyalty oath?
An edict outlining "acceptable doctrine?"
State imposed orthodoxy?

The fundies are psycho, and their practices threaten democracy, but so do the activities of many other groups which we find ways to tolerate in our nation. The main danger the fundies hold over us, is that progressives tend to rip each other apart more than focus on common goals. Hence, the more focused fundies win victories against a divided and cantankerous progressive movement. If we are mobilized, motivated and organized, we can effectively combat anything that they throw at us.

That said, any religious litmus tests in the government must be thrown out, and the continued attempts to evangelize our military must end now. The governmental institutions of our nation must remain secular.

[norepubsin08]

48. My suggestion:

make sure that they adher to the 501(c)3 status that they have. If not, yank it...nothing speaks better to these guys than money.

Also, if they are getting a tax break and are preaching or agitating for violence in anyway-get rid of their tax exemption.

[JNelson6563]

68. Seems to me you are

likening completely reasonable suggestions to extreme measures. Having someone attend a service that is open to the public to verify they are adhering to the regulations involved with their priveledged tax-free status is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. It does not attack any sort of belief system, it's not a litmus test, it is nothing like the inquisition, a loyalty oath or any of the other outrages you have or may come up with.

As to "us tearing ourselves apart", I'd say you are demonstrating nicely how this occurs with your oversensitive and unreasonable reaction to this topic.

Julie

[SidneyCarton]

72. Do you really understand what you are advocating here?

You are advocating that observers need to go to worship services, to assure that what is being taught or preached there is acceptable. This may indeed be nothing but an innocent desire to defend the separation of Church and State. However, it sets a very dangerous precedent, one that, assuming that the Republicans will still exist after November, and still contain a dangerous Authoritarian/Dominionist streak, we might think twice before establishing. After all, should a Palin ever end up in office, such precedents would effectively give her carte blanche to eviscerate the first amendment.

I don't think that organized spying on religious groups will get you the outcome you desire, I do think it will end up further eroding civil liberties in our nation.

As to your tone, you are correct, I got too hot, no one is suggesting an inquisition, I apologize for my outburst.

[JNelson6563]

86. It's all good.

I do not think spies should be sent to churches to make sure teachings and preachings are "acceptable". I do believe there should be some sort of way to ensure that organizations who are enjoying the priveledge of not paying taxes meet the requirements they agree to in order to get that status. I do not think churches/religions should be singled out in this respect, I believe there should the same accountability for ALL the organizations with non-profit status.

Just as we taxpayers are held accountable for our own tax related obligations (i.e. audits if something's not right) so should all.

Julie--who believes in equal opportunity accountability

[HillbillyBob]

17. on the other hand they send spies to protest group meetings for

instance. I sampled churches before I could admit to myself and the world that I am gay.
Being in the South most were hateful to progressives, gays, blacks, on and on.
I was looking for acceptance or at least tolerance.
I learned way more than I wanted to know. I attended a few of the Church of God-pentecost as well as evangelical Baptists, Methodist, MCC, UU . It seemed to me that the Methodist, MCC and UUs were accepting and Tolerant. the others were scary. Even the First Presbyterian Church in Lighthouse Point Fl where D James Kennedy spared little time in telling me just how UNwelcome I was there.
I thought it was funny when someone was watching Ted Haggard on tv one Sunday, I said there is something not right. Privately I thought he seemed to be gay and on speed. I said that something nasty will come out about him in 2 weeks or less...it was 4 days later that it broke that he was having gay sex with a hustler and doing meth. Part of it is that I have decent Gaydar, and have seen way too many folks that had coke or meth addictions while living in SoFla.
The Pentecostal church I attended for several months preached about being Soldiers of Gawd, I mean armed soldiers and kill the heathens and unbelievers, gays, divorced people. people who danced (other than in church) ,men or women of "loose morals" meaning anyone who had gasp premarital sex, and demoncrats..the list went on. By that time I had decided that I had enough I should have stayed longer, but I could not stomach it.
I have kind of watched the growth of the republican machine , wild eyed religious types and the money crowd. This was in Alabama, that I realized something fishy was going on, for years I have spoken about this Theo-Fascist unholy union grow and fester. Few listened others sneer or jeer or tell me I am paranoid.
Recall how many times Fallwell, Dobson, Robertson, et al blames us for the country's ills?
Perhaps we do need to spy don't ya think, when folks worship and claime to hear G'd tell them to go out and do missions, both religious and military, and convert the heathens or kill them,
I think this is a threat to us all.
Some of the more rabid Dominionists are Eric Prince (ceo/owner of Blackwater USA, Mr and Mrs Devoss Amway founders and ceo , Mrs DeVoss is EPrince's sister, Richard Mellon Scaife, Revs Moom, Tim LaHaye, Pat Robertson (worth billions from his ministries and the CBC network/700 club, and a bunch more, but I am sure you get the picture.
Yes SPY on them, they do not hesitate to spy on you and try their damnedest to put a theo-fascst government over us.

[spoony]

19. So, "the RW does it" is now an excuse for the same behaviour?

No, sorry, bullshit.

[garlicmilkshake]

34. sometimes turning the other cheek just gets you

a seven iron up the ass.
:shrug:

[SidneyCarton]

45. So in order to avoid such a fate...

We should preemptively shoot the other guy and burn down his house, right?

[garlicmilkshake]

55. I'm amazed you can find time to post here what with your obvious career in

fantastic extrapolation. ;-)

[SidneyCarton]

29. So, instead of restoring democracy and the Constitution...

an Obama administration is just to get a little righteous payback? Now it's our turn to take all of Rove's and Bush's dirty tricks and use them against the otherside, and establish a Permanent majority of our side?

That's brilliant, just brilliant. When prey tell will you be on the next Hannity documentary, you are the stuff that Right wing smears are made of...

[Goblinmonger]

50. I would argue that if we have laws in place

we should either enforce them or get rid of them. If a church violates the code, they should no longer have tax-free status. Is that something you disagree with? I'm not saying put them in jail, or kill them, or burn down the church, just make them start paying taxes. That's it. Fork over some of the money you bring in because you don't fall into the tax code exception you wanted to fall into.

[garlicmilkshake]

56. See what you get when you say something reasonable? Crickets, that's what.

:D

[SidneyCarton]

73. Some of us do not live on the board,

as such, we cannot check every 5 minutes to see if someone has responded to our arguments.

You want to start this, fine. Start taxing churches that do not act as you would like. Set up a system of informers to make sure that we all tow the new Federally-mandated orthodox line. And when a Fundy/Dominionist Republican gets elected, as is both possible and likely sometime in the future, congratulations, you have now handed the psychos absolute control of the state, including control over all progressive religious institutions.

Depending on the degree to which this works, I'm sure that informers in all political, social and cultural groups would soon follow. In the end we would find ourselves in a dominionist version of the Soviet Union, awaiting the Rapture instead of the World Revolution.

[spoony]

59. Which places you in the same league as people

who record TV programmes to skim them for swear words to send to the FCC and people who call the homeowner's association if someone's blinds aren't an approved colour. Technically in the right, and wrong in every other way.

I mean, really. What's next, going undercover in the Salvation Army?

[Goblinmonger]

60. Not at all

I just expect that if there is a law in place we should either change it if it is crap and enforce it if it isn't. The question is, do you think the law is crap or not. I don't think so. They can say what they want to say, they just have to consider whether they want to be tax exempt of not. There is no abridging speech, just a tax benefit if you don't endorse a specific candidate. Why is that so shitty?

[Dogtown]

65. Reporting lawbreakers and tax-cheats

Just your honorable neighborhood watch at work, spoonful.

:patriot:


I'd suggest displaying the microphone after the prohibited speech. Just remember that the Saved Ones are legally authorized to carry their firearms to church in Georgia.

[nosillies]

11. I already go, no politicking in mine

Contrary to popular belief, many churches do teach love and acceptance. But nobody pays attention to us in the middle of the road, because we're too busy ducking the stones hurled over our heads from the glass houses of the loudmouth fundies and religion-haters.

[HillbillyBob]

20. We do appreciate your position, and love our Christian brothers and

sisters. WE would also ask that you speak up more for real Christian action and take the
megaphone away from the haters. I do realize they are a smaller group, but the get all the attention because they shout louder, pay campaign bribes and get hard rightwingers to run for office.
It is past time that we take it back from the Kreestians

[southpaw]

24. The haters are a smaller group?

I guess that depends on where you live.

Down here in the heart of dixie, moderate and liberal christians are almost unheard of.

Practically every church is filled with and led by narrow-minded bigots.

[nosillies]

26. Thanks, Hillbilly

Us Methodists are pretty chill -- we probably don't get our hackles up as often as we ought to. But with every new wingnut LTTE in my local paper in which the writer presumes to lecture us on why God hates liberals, I get more and more fed up. I've recently started shouting back!

[Lint Head]

12. I agree. Let's go to church and expose Benny Hinn, Paul and Jan Crouch

and more for the despicable liars they are! Hey Benny! My father's been gone for a while. Can you raise him from the dead so I can see him again and he can enjoy his grandchildren? Don't you think that an 'evangelist healer' would already have a video on YouTube if he caused an amputee's arm or leg to grow back?

Oh by the way, George Bush has lied in the face of Jesus Christ! No real Christian can be a republican. Republican's choke when they have to speak the words of Jesus. Things like take off all you clothes and give them to the poor. Turn the other cheek. Let not one man suffer. Protect the living children and elderly. Take care of the diseased.

I've never once heard a right wing nut job re-pubic-rat say that Jesus' words should be posted on the lawn of the court house.
:dem:

[JoDog]

13. It's all good at the temple

The only thing the rabbi has said is to encourage us to use our votes responsibly. That's it.

[norepubsin08]

14. I go to First United Methodist Church in Tacoma, WA

and am the MICAH Project chairperson...I can tell you from being a part of 16 different congregations in 5 denominations that they are as liberal as they come!

[KSDiva]

18. That's what I was going to post

We got a countdown to the election prayer calendar, and it didn't specify any candidates, top topic issues or party. Each day gave us something to pray over -- that the lines moved quickly, that there would be no problems with the machines, that every vote was counted, that everyone made thoughtful decisions based on heart and mind -- stuff like that. I was impressed.

And yeah, guys, I'd say lots of liberals are Christians. The difference is we're faithful and quietly go about our faith -- as opposed to the religious zealots. :-)

[norepubsin08]

40. thank you and welcome to DU!

where are you from?

[Goblinmonger]

51. And none of that violates the tax code

so tax exempt you stay. Those that do violate the code should lose that status.

[Generic Other]

69. I can vouch for this as a non-church goer from Tacoma

We have many liberal churches in our community who believe in social justice. Methodists, Catholics, Quakers...these are the folks I have seen at the anti-war rallies. Very liberal congregations.

I'd hate to see them lose their tax exempt status for their decidedly anti-Bush stance in the last few years!

On the other hand, I don't think any of these churches told their congregations how to vote (perhaps other than asking them to vote their consciences).

:hi:

[Sebastian Doyle]

30. I started a thread about this on Sunday

Specifically about Fundagelical nutcase (and former official McCain campaign advisor) John Hagee, whose Sunday afternoon TV program began a series of sermons called "Vote the Bible" which will continue through (as you might have guessed) Sunday November 2. While he was careful not to mention any names (at least not in the first episode) he did say to "Never vote for a pro-abortion candidate". Well of course not John! Instead we should vote for a so called "pro-life" candidate who agrees with your sickening plans to incite Iran & Russia into invading Israel to fulfill the prophecies of Ezekiel 38, and kick off Armegeddon. Yeah, that's so much better :eyes:

Every fundagelical church in the country will have some hateful pro-McCrazy sermon on 11/02. You can bet on it. I hope somebody gets the video from Moosealini's church in Alaska. That will probably be the most psychotic of them all.

[Arugula Latte]

33. Church! UGH! Noooooooooooo!

:o

Even the smell of churches makes me want to hurl (that nasty, musty smell x( ), let alone the crap that is said in them.

[SoxFan]

36. You know what I heard about on Sunday evening?

The poor in Haiti and El Salvador. Archbishop Oscar Romero being martyred while consecrating the Eucharist. The need to see Christ in the eyes of the least of our brothers and sisters.

And yes, I'm Catholic. I belong to one of those denominations that the oh-so-enlightened on DU seem to enjoy insulting with a disturbing level of zeal.

[norepubsin08]

41. Oscar Romero is one of my heros

I wound up running against our congressman because of the El Salvador situation. In 1990 I ran in the primary against him from the left. I got 42% of the primary vote, more than anybody has before or since in a primary. It was mainly over his funding the SOA. After the election he changed his vote. I LOVE!!! the liberal wing of the Roman Catholic Church.

[Goblinmonger]

52. There are times when the RCC needs to be insulted

would you disagree with that? Certainly some of the stands of the church are troublesome, no?

What you describe at the church doesn't violate the tax code so there isn't a problem. What about those churches that DO violate the code and do it with zeal?

[earth mom]

38. Take your video camera and/or audio recorder if you do. nt

[spoony]

58. Then what are they going to point at their neighbours' houses?

Not everybody has the money to spy on everyone at once.

[SidneyCarton]

76. And that, Spoony is why we wiretap, and install cameras in their houses while they're out.

If they aren't necessarily doing anything wrong, well, the naughty stuff can be entertaining. And anyway, when the fundies take over, all the interesting stuff can be sent to President Palin, so she can more accurately cleanse our nation.

:sarcasm:

Does anyone else think our sudden drunkenness with power and desire for payback is a little disturbing?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. I already go, and my clergy don't promote candidates

Most mainstream clergy are quite scrupulous about this.

[madokie]

46. Only for a funeral will I

darken those doors. Its a good idea for those who can do it.

[kineneb]

49. only if they pay me to play the service music

Yes, I am a music mercenary.

[Greyhound]

54. I already know how sausage is made, I have no need to report on it. n/t

[xfundy]

57. Dude, you owe me a keyboard.

That was so good.

I'm glad to see my little post got some people talking, and especially nice to hear from the self-righteous crowd telling me how self-righteous I am. (Not you, I just didn't want to waste time replying directly to those God™® and Baby Jesus™® and/or Vishnu™® or Alllalallalala™® or whatever invisible man whosoever claims to get power from loves so much better than the rest of us.)



Your milage may vary. Professional driver on closed course; do not attempt. Some persons taking conservatism report internal cramping, intestinal disfortitude, cognitive dissonance, unintentional hilarity, and various recto-cranial symptoms. Some do not report these symptoms, as they are pathological liars. Take two aspirin and keep away from children. (Sorry, when I get in mouse-type mode, it's hard to stop.) ©2008, whoever or, if you prefer, whosoever.

[bobbolink]

61. Of which "churches" are you speaking?

The liberal, democratic ones?

It's time to recognize reality, and stop this false hype.

[spoony]

70. Well that's the next step

They'll strike back by going after liberal churches. Not that any of the people advocating such things care, since they want them taxed, too.

[fascisthunter]

64. interesting... it's ok for Churches to Get Involved in What Government Does...

but it's an obvious no-no other way around.

[SidneyCarton]

74. No, neither is ok.

Our nation and Iran are good examples of what happens one way...
And England under Henry VIII is a good example of what happens the other way.

What you are advocating has been tried before, and the results were not encouraging.

[fascisthunter]

78. What am I Advocating?

[SidneyCarton]

80. Are you not advocating for government oversight of what is preached in church?

If not, my apologies, I obviously passed judgment too quickly.

[fascisthunter]

82. no way...

Each should not interfere with the other.

And apology accepted...

[proud patriot]

71. been going to church weekly for about 2 months now

a co worker invited me ..

I figured it can't hurt.

[RB TexLa]

75. I already go every Sunday.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

77. I can't. It's the consecrated ground. My feet burn. n/t

[sam sarrha]

79. do i get a God Squad badge and decoder ring..??

[dhpgetsit]

81. I keep thinking of other things I'd rather do.

Like go geocaching.

[BlooInBloo]

83. Uhh.... no.

[ileus]

85. I'm there every Sunday year around for real reasons.

And our preacher is a democrat BTW.