Do You Think Felons Should Be Allowed To Vote?

[Dinger]

If they are 18 and an American citizen? I think Maine & Vermont allow inmates to vote.

[gravity]

1. Only after they've served their sentence

[cali]

44. In my state incarcerated felons are allowed to vote, and I completely

support that.

[backscatter712]

57. I'm all for it too.

Prisons should be distributing ballots to inmates and collecting them so their voice is heard. Of course, measures should be taken to prevent shenanigans (these are convicts, after all,) but assuming they're capable of casting a ballot within the rules, they should be able to do so.

Too often, a tactic for disenfranchisement and voter suppression includes targeting minorities and political opponents with criminal prosecution, so they can be branded as convicts and barred from voting.

[Xithras]

95. The problem with that is a logistical one.

How do you deal with states like California which likes to put prisons in thinly populated rural areas? A bored group of inmates could have a major impact on a local county or town election, even though those inmates have no connection to the county or town aside from the ballot box.

The simple solution would seem to be that they must vote in their home precincts, but what if they were homeless? Even if they weren't, how would you handle balloting in a prison where the inmates could conceivably come from hundreds or even thousands of different precincts? It becomes a logistical nightmare very quickly.

[dysfunctional press]

113. let them vote absentee ballots from their home district...

isn't that how it's done in the military? :shrug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. What about during probation?

A person in that situation is functioning within society. They work, pay their bills, have residence etc.

[cascadiance]

70. i support this. It's an incentive for felons to return as law abiding citizens...

... if they are allowed to be a part of society again later with all of their rights, provided they pay their dues with the sentence, etc. they incurred for the crime they committed.

One thing though that I think we need to look closely at is to ensure that law enforcement doesn't have a lot of those "vagrancy" laws, etc. that they selectively apply to people of color and less means so that they can turn them into slave labor without rights, etc.

David Blackmon has a new book out, "Slavery by Another Name", which looks at these very issues, and how in effect slavery continued beyond the civil war into last century and still has some vestiges in our huge minority laden prison population of today.

http://www.slaverybyanothername.com/

Though logically, I don't want REAL criminals to vote until they served their time, I also don't want the government to have felons serving time not being able to vote be a part of a set of incentives to go after people of color to incarcerate them to use them for slavery and limit their rights to vote as well. We need to find ways to also not incentivize that sort of abuse of our justice system, even if we don't allow felons serving sentences the right to vote.

[napi21]

2. Only after they've served their sentence and are free citizens again.

I do think it's wrong for any State to not reinstate someone's rights after they have paid the penalty for thsir crime. I know some States still do that.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

3. Yes, once they've served their sentence...

[ananda]

4. after they get out

nt

[Quantess]

5. Some ex-felons happen to be wonderful, intelligent, people.

They aren't all rapists or murderers. But even if they are, if they've done their time, I don't see why voting rights shouldn't be restored.

[tblue]

17. Racists created this ban to prohibit black people from voting

It wasn't all that hard to get convictions and, once convicted, the 'felons' lost their right to vote. And there are STILL barriers to black people voting to this day.

[awoke_in_2003]

23. never thought of it that way...

but it definately makes sense

[garlicmilkshake]

49. I find it awfully hard to believe that there have ever been enough bogus convictions to detectably

affect the elections. Not to say there have not been quite a few but I don't believe that was the motivation. It would be horrifically inefficient.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Around 50% of inmates are african-american.

Despite being about 10% of the general population.

So there's your huge pool of bogus convictions.

African-Americans vote some 90% for the Democratic ticket.

And the U.S. has by far the highest percentage inmate population of any industrialized country.

So there's really no doubt the justice system is racist and affects elections.

[garlicmilkshake]

73. Yes I keep forgetting no African American ever committed a crime.

...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. So basically...

if you arguing that the ~50% of inmates being black despite only being 10% of the population, you're arguing that white people are morally superior to black people.

Sorry, kiddo, I reject white supremacy.

[garlicmilkshake]

75. No, I made a sarcastic comment to counter your own implication.

An observation of fact is not really an argument unless you decide to make it one. I reject that sort of inanity.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. Yeah, I know.

But it's predicated on the belief that the discrimination against black people is justified.

If it were a just system, then black people would be 10% of the prison population, given a 10% general population.

[bertman]

107. Seems to me you're making a leap in logic on this one Bornaginhooligan. I'm not a

statistician or a criminologist, but I suspect, just suspect mind you, that being in the historic underclass, being discriminated against for more than a century after having been allegedly freed from centuries of being enslaved, living in poverty, getting inferior or no education, having fewer decent employment opportunities, and generally being forced to live in poverty and neglect in ghettos and substandard conditions, the black population, like any other population that had to exist under those circumstances might be expected to have a significantly higher percentage of its population turn to crime as a last resort. That alone would logically account for a higher than proportionate representation in the incarcerated population--even if justice were blind.

Of course, that does not, in any way, relieve us of the moral obligation to do everything we can to right these wrongs and insure that all Americans receive equal opportunity and equal justice under the law.

Also, to answer the poster's question: yes, after they have paid their debt to society.

[readmoreoften]

79. Uh, no. You have two choices. White supremacy or admitting the system is racist.

If 12% of Americans are African-American but 50% of convicted felons are African-American, you can only come to two conclusions:

1) Black folks are predisposed to criminal behavior.
2) Black folks are targeted for arrest.

Considering all the white kids who do drugs and deal drugs and never get caught--let alone have the book thrown at them--I'm going with the latter. You can choose to live in a racist fantasy world if you want.

And your post "I made a sarcastic comment to counter your own implication" is an abstract way of saying "I wrote a sarcastic put-down in response to your implication that the system is racist."

Your second comment is ("An observation of fact is not really an argument unless you decide to make it one. I reject that sort of inanity.") is meaningless gibberish put forth in abstract terms to make you sound intelligent without really saying anything at all. You were the one who instigated an argument with your childish (and lets face it, racist...) non sequitur.

[garlicmilkshake]

87. You are attempting the old 'excluded middle' logical fallacy which ignores

(in this case) another entirely possible conclusion.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

92. After your post #73, you have no business complaining about others using fallacies. -nt

[EstimatedProphet]

104. OK, so what's the fallacy?

What's the error in logic? Or should we all just accept that you say there's an error in logic and not bother to find out what it is?

[garlicmilkshake]

106. You will be happier if you accept and don't try to find out what it is.

Sorry but that's how I feel about it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

126. Actually there IS a neglected possibility in readmoreoften's posts, and here's why you don't say it:

Because it's against your ideology.

What readmoreoften omitted is that black people are targets of historic discrimination that limits their economic prospects, driving more of them into poverty and therefore increasing crime. People who get by OK, economically, tend to not consider crime as an alternative.

[EstimatedProphet]

130. That has to be one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard

"You're making a mistake in your reasoning! I won't tell you what it is, but you're making one! I win!"

No, you lost. There is no excluded middle here, as you just proved.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

91. That was hugely, gloriously stupid. Most blatant straw man EVER. -nt

[garlicmilkshake]

98. You need to send in your sarcasmometer for calibration.

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

99. Oh, I got the lame sarcasm you used to deliver the straw man. -nt

[garlicmilkshake]

103. Well, I'm sure your Brazillion opinion is of the utmost moment up here.

Who the hell would refer to himself as a commie dirtbag...besides a commie dirtbag?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

124. I chose this username to piss off jerks and assholes.

Works wonders.

[raccoon]

52. I think so too. nt

[Dinger]

89. That's Kind Of What I Was Thinking

Jim Crow in the 21st Century.

[treestar]

6. When they have served their sentence the punishment should end

We don't need to have people free out on the streets who have no stake in our society. The vote symbolizes that stake. Don't take away their motivation to fit in, especially when they are out of jail.

[leftofthedial]

7. yes. after they've served their sentence.

[alfredo]

8. After they have served their sentence.

[notheyrejustwrong]

9. Once they've left office

And only if they are not on their way to The hague

[G_j]

94. good call

welcome to DU!

[JonLP24]

10. Hell yes

After they do their time would probaly be more appropriate but ex-felons are people just like you and me and should definately have a say in how things are run. They live here too.

[Book Lover]

11. I agree with Maine and Vermont here

Every citizen has the right to vote. I believe that right should be recognized during a period of incarceration as well.

[LiberalHeart]

12. Only if they're not Republicans.

[blue sky at night]

13. vote yes..........

just not hold public office while they are committing their felonies.

[awoke_in_2003]

24. We wouldn't have any politicians then

:)

[tblue]

14. Once they've paid their debt to society, they've paid their debt to society.

[norepubsin08]

15. Yes and after a period of 5 years of

law abiding behaviour they should be allowed to run for office. I also think that after 12 years, if there were no other crimes commited their records should be expunged.

[norepubsin08]

16. Yes and after a period of 5 years of

law abiding behaviour they should be allowed to run for office. I also think that after 12 years, if there were no other crimes commited their records should be expunged.

[norepubsin08]

18. Yes, and after a period (after release from incarcaration) and law

abiding behaviour of five years, they should be allowed to run to run for office and after 10 years, their records should be expunged

[Jed Dilligan]

19. I don't see why not

There aren't exactly any pro-felon candidates for them to choose from, so the argument that they could disrupt the political process are moot.

[SeattleGirl]

20. They are here in Washington, once they've served their

sentence and are done with parole. They have every right to vote then, and I think it's great.

[Incitatus]

21. I see some people said no but failed to give a reason, please respond.

[Incitatus]

30. Come on, I'm not looking to attack you

I'm just curious if you can competently defend your position.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

56. You know the reason. They think you're one of the Inferiors. -nt

[norepubsin08]

22. I am an ex felon

I got cancer twice, the second time I was uninsured (previous insurance dropped me)and almost died. 163,000.00 (1992 dollars) in medical bills. I kept on filing for bankruptcy and not completing the process in order to stave off the creditors and to be continued to be treated. I was convicted of abuse of the US Bankruptcy process. Would I do it again, fuck yes! In a heart beat and I would encourage anybody else to do it also. It kept me alive, however with consequences. I can't vote in my own state..I have an address in neighboring state that allows felons to vote..so I can at least cast a vote for President and I also do so for US Senator and Representative. This to me is an indictment both on our legal system, our enfranchisement system and our health care system. I am still paying for it too, I might add. $546.00 a month and will be until September 2009. Payments started out at 1,005.00 per month. When I get done they will be 311.00 I spent 13 months in a Federal Prison in Oregon.

[Forkboy]

25. Sorry to hear about all that, especially the cancer.

I hope you're doing well now.

[garlicmilkshake]

77. I believe it is possible to be guilty of a crime, yet not be a criminal.

The problem with a legal recognition of that theory is of course that's so terribly subjective. Kinda like "I can't define obscene, I just know it when I see it."

I like how this principle is addressed in Plato's _Republic_ even though it doesn't really get resolved. :shrug:

[pitohui]

93. jesus god what a terrible story

i am glad you were brave enough to do what you needed to do to survive

abuse of the bankruptcy process indeed

may the same happen to that judge that he wished on you

[Iggo]

26. We are allowed to vote.

Sheesh.

[endthewar]

28. Depends on the state

[Iggo]

43. 14 states (11 of them in the South...hmmm)...

Ban felons from voting for life. 36 states do not.

[TXDemGal]

27. After they're out of the slammer. n/t

[struggle4progress]

29. Of course, once the sentence served

[Alexander]

31. After they serve their sentence, yes.

[TexasObserver]

32. Yes. There's no reason a conviction should void one's right to vote.

[Waiting For Everyman]

42. Especially these days, considering our criminal (in)justice system.

Besides, the worst criminals, the rich unconvicted, are voting. What's the difference? Why shouldn't all of them, then?

[Brucie Kibbutz]

33. I voted NO...

...in regards to violent offenders. Convicted murderers,rapists,and child molesters don't deserve to vote.

[lligrd]

35. But un-convicted ones do?

And let's be serious, I consider voting more of a duty than a right. I doubt most convicts (besides those working for Faux News) really give 2 chits arbor voting.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

54. What else they don't deserve? Eating chocolate perhaps? -nt

[lligrd]

34. If Rove, Cheney, Rummy And Bush Still Have The Right

I see no reason to deprive anyone else of the right. Actually, I think that for the most part their records should be cleared after serving their sentence.

[OakCliffDem]

36. Once a person has 'paid their debt to society' they should be allowed all rights of citizenship

If they haven't 'paid their debt', they should still be in prison.

[flstci]

48. I don't think I can go there.

Are you saying you are ok if someone has gunned down a person, serves their time, they should be allowed to own a gun?

[dysfunctional press]

114. yes, they should.

once the debt is paid, it's paid.

if they wanted a gun for nefarious purposes, it probably wouldn't be too hard for them to find one on the black market.

as long as citizens are allowed to own firearms for home/self protection, so should those citizens who have paid their debt.

in your opinion- should someone convicted of vehicular homicide be allowed to own a car/motorcycle once their sentence is over? :shrug:

what about someone who went to prison for stabbing someone to death- should they be allowed to purchase/own flatware? :shrug:

[OakCliffDem]

127. If a former criminal has paid their debt to society, the should have all the rights of society

Even convicted Felons have the right to self defense. The right to self defense is inalienable from God, and it is not within the power of Government to give that right.

If you have doubts about an individual's being rehabilitated upon release from prison, then that person should not be released.

[mittenlandgirl]

37. Yes and even while they are serving time

If lawmakers make it a felony to protest and a life sentence is mandatory...
If lawmakers make it a felony to be liberal and a life sentence is mandatory...
If lawmakers make it a felony to question the lawmakers and a life sentence is mandatory...

Someone becomes a felon because they broke a law. Laws are made by those who we vote for.
People should be able to vote for (or against) those who made those laws...

Who has more interest in voting for lawmakers than those the laws effect most?

[MrSlayer]

38. No, you forfeit your rights when you enter the penal system.

Once freed, you can vote but not while you are down for a long piece.

[Cobalt Violet]

39. Which rights?

All your rights? Are you saying prisoners don't have any rights?

[MrSlayer]

40. Very few.

You have no right to privacy, no right to free speech, no right to bear arms, no freedom of assembly, you get religion and petition, for all the good it will do you. Take the Bill of Rights and see how many apply to you in prison.

By choosing to be a felon, you forfeit your rights as a citizen.

[Goblinmonger]

66. let's take away their 4th, 5th, 14th amendment rights, too

while we're at it since they are felons, who gives a crap.

Is there any logical reason why their right to vote should be taken? I mean, I get why they can't bear arms in prison. Why not vote?

[MrSlayer]

123. 4th amendment rights are gone in prison.

Bend over, spread em and give me two big coughs. You do retain your 5th and 14th amendment rights. Your citizenship is not taken away. I have no problem with felons voting once they are released.

[Two Americas]

122. unalienable

...endowed by their Creator... all are created equal...

[BlueIris]

41. Yes. Which they can in Oregon so neener, neener, neener! nt

[cali]

45. I believe VT and ME are the only two states which allow incarcerated felons to vote

can you provide a link showing that OR does too? Thanks.

[BlueIris]

85. In Oregon, you can vote from jail if convicted for felony as long as it was less than one year

before the election in which you're trying to vote.

[cynatnite]

46. After they paid their debt to society there is no reason to deny them voting rights n/t

[goddess40]

47. Wisconsin - they can vote after they are "off paper"

They've served all their time and have paid the debt that society says they owed.

[slackmaster]

50. Once their sentences are served, they should have ALL civil rights restored

Including the right to keep and bear arms.

[spoony]

51. I don't see where anyone is served by denying them that right.

I get denying them their freedom of movement during their sentence, but how is society safer by them not voting? Of course they should be allowed to vote.

[Greg K]

53. They should be allowed to vote once they've served their sentences. nt

[backscatter712]

58. Allow them to vote, even inside prison.

Even convicts should have a voice.

[brentspeak]

59. Yes, but not violent felons

[Goblinmonger]

67. why would a violent felon

be uniquely halted from voting compared to a white collar criminal? wouldn't the white-collar person be more likely to affect something related to their crime than a violent criminal? they could vote for McCain and his deregulation. The violent criminal won't have many options to vote for someone saying they will make violent crime legal.

[Uncle Joe]

60. If they're freed from prison and not on parole, they've paid their debt to society

and as such, I see no reason, they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

To do otherwise will only serve to disenfranchise an increasing number of people; who could go on to make valuable contributions.

[Common Sense Party]

65. Yes, I agree. They should be off parole. n/t

[aikoaiko]

61. After serving all time and reparations, all rights should be restored.

But if you can't be trusted to walk among us, then you can't be trusted to vote.

[Goblinmonger]

68. So the mentally handicapped that live in a group home

should have their voting rights taken away from them?

[aikoaiko]

80. We're talking about persons who are convicted of felonies -- not mental illness.

Its an interesting question whether or not someone who is adjudicated to an instutition due to mental illness should be allowed to vote. I'd have to think about that one.

[madinmaryland]

96. What about people with Alzheimers? They can still vote.

:shrug:

[aikoaiko]

116. Having Alzheimers is not a felony -- let em vote.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. yes i do think they should.

[Spirochete]

63. Yes

Everyone of age should be able to vote on the laws they have to live under - even if they tend not to obey most of them.

[MgtPA]

69. At the very least, allow felons convicted of victimless crimes vote (i.e., a few pot plants...

...in the basement). IMHO, victimless "criminals" don't owe a debt to society.

[JimWis]

71. Not until they have served their time. Then - Yes.

[eauclaireliberal]

72. Yes, so asshole pollsters in places like Florida

can't pull off any of that "...name is close enough to a convicted felon so they aren't allowed to vote" shit.

[mwooldri]

78. If this was Europe, then the Court of Human Rights has ruled on this.

Felons inside prison should have the right to vote, according to them.

My personal feeling is that for human rights violation crimes those criminals have given up their human rights until they've earned them back. If the Yorkshire Ripper is going around denying multiple people their human right to exist, then denying him the right to vote is OK by me. However the guy who got caught having a Class B drug (e.g. Cannabis) on them for their own personal use - I think that they should vote because they haven't violated anyones' human rights.

Mark.

[Rancid Crabtree]

81. slaves with weekends off already vote

it's in the book, or something...dead people vote, so why not felons!

[Dora]

82. It depends on the crime.

Personally, I'd love to see voter fraud prosecuted. I say it's fair punishment to restrict the voting rights of those who would tamper with the electoral process.

[Runcible Spoon]

83. Of course. I even think neocons should be able to vote! anything less than voting rights for ALL

defeats the democratic purpose. If there are politicians pushing laws that directly affect you, and that is EVERYONE, felon or not, you should get to vote. Period.

[rvablue]

84. Ex-felons: yes, if they are reinstated. Current Felons: definitely not!! n/t

[Versailles]

86. Still a citizen...

Even as a felon, you are still protected by the rights guaranteed by our constitution and its amendments; therefore, I don't see any reason why the right to vote should be repressed. If you are incarcerated, you don't suddenly lose your citizenship and all citizens are given the right to vote.

[old mark]

88. I think they should be allowed to petition for a return of their

voting rights when they are completely free (not on parole, etc.), and I would be interested how many actually would do so.

Should not be automatic.

mark

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

90. What's wrong with it being automatic? -nt

[Lautremont]

97. Of course they should.

What are they, un-people? Have they lost their citizenship? No? Then they should be allowed to vote. I can't comprehend thinking otherwise.

[dhpgetsit]

100. Not until they have done their time.

After they are out, then yes.

[dudewheresmycountry]

101. The constitution states,

Every American 18 years or over has a right to vote, I truly believe even it you have been convicted or are serving time for any reason, your right to vote should be honored.........That would also include all the republicans that are or will soon be in prison....

[cherokeeprogressive]

102. Depends... will they be voting Dem or rethug? n/t

[LaydeeBug]

105. They have paid their debt to society...

so they should be able to vote.

[Geronimo12]

108. The Constitution makes no exceptions against fellons

They are as American as you and I.

[Two Americas]

109. of course

What could be controversial about this?

[wisteria]

110. As part of rehabilitation-granted to those who understand the honor and privilege. n/t

[pleah]

111. 180th yes vote. n/t

[alarimer]

112. I don't understand why they lose their right to vote in the first place.

I mean, as an incentive not to commit crimes, it's pretty lame. They don't have to give up other rights, like freedom of religion or speech.

[dysfunctional press]

115. when the law was enacted especially- there was a good enough chance the felon was black.

[mitchum]

117. Yes, even while incarcerated

[mitchum]

118. Yes, even while incarcerated

[LibbyTreehugger]

119. After they paid their dues to society

I see no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

[JackRiddler]

120. Of course, it's an inalienable right... but...

Punishment for crime shouldn't have anything to do with it, and voting is an integrative process. However, given how things are with the propaganda machinery's treatment of noble causes like ACORN, the Machiavellian in me does imagine certain scenarios in which the Felon Vote is turned into a mammoth emotional hammer with which to club the minds of the rest of the electorate, with rabid right-wing majorities spun out of it... I mean, look at what they did just with Willie Horton, now imagine Willie Horton gets the vote. Imagine you have polls showing 70% of prisoners support a Democratic candidate, do you want them deciding your president, blah blah blah. See what I mean?

[The Inquisitive]

121. Not while serving out their sentence

Using social contract theory I would argue that if an individual decides to violate the mutually agreed upon laws of society then society has the right to retract the offenders right to influence the outcome of future laws and political affairs for whatever period of time the state justice system deems adequate. Once there sentence is up however, I believe this right should be unquestionably restored.

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. I think prisoners should be allowed to vote

Unless they are guilty of some type of voter or election fraud, they should be able to vote.

Besides, you know they would vote Democratic. :)

[PVnRT]

128. Yes, with a but

I have no problem allowing those that have committed non-violent crimes (drug posession) or people who are within a year of getting out by election day. Violent criminals and capital offenders, though, no, not until they get out.

[Dinger]

129. Thank You For Your Responses Everyone

I appreciate it, and I voted yes.

[mainegreen]

131. Yes. Everyone here in Maine can vote. It boggles my mind that is not true elsewhere.

I guess we just value democracy higher here in Maine.