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Shout out to Barney, the loveable pink DINO!!

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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 10:17 PM
Original message
Shout out to Barney, the loveable pink DINO!!
Isn't he wonderful? I just LOVE getting reamed to the tune of a trillion dollars in a single day! Hey, it's only money, and like Barney always says, I love you, you love me, we get fleeced just wonderfully!!



:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. "The great purple evil one"
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oh, it all came out of YOUR pocket? What a relief!
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That Guy 888 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Why do you love this bailout so much?
Find an economist with no personal connection to bush or Goldman Sachs (and the rest)who think the bailout is as good as you apparently do.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I think that was sarcasm
Welcome to DU, by the way.

:hi:
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That Guy 888 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I don't
Edited on Sat Oct-04-08 12:01 AM by That Guy 888
:hi: Thanks for the welcome.

I recognized the name from another post on the bailout.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4166159#4166234

It annoys me that all of the "pro-bailout" people just see this as another vote. Maybe I'm overreacting, but my sister showed me this white paper that spells out how disastrous the bailout might be. I've looked around a bit and haven't seen any economists who think this is a good plan or that it will definitely be successful.

Even though Paul Krugmann supports it, he does so only because he seems to think our representatives would need a flashlight and both hands to find their own butts economically speaking. As for paulson's plan, he says this in his blog: "So am I for the bill? Yuk, phooey, I guess so. And I’m very angry at Paulson for putting us in this position." Hardly a ringing endorsement.

pdf link to white paper if your curious http://solari.com/blog/docs/Final-Bailout-White-Paper.pdf

Edit to clarify: The white paper is about the original bush-paulson plan. I don't think there were significant enough changes to invalidate the warnings in the paper.
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Okay, then I *HOPE* it was sarcasm...
But I fear that you're correct.

Well, hell. I've got $700B just sitting in my basement collecting dust. They can have it, if it'll let those poor CEOs vacation on the Riviera again.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. No, yours. I'm a Goldman Sachs exec
and don't pay taxes. Now you'll have to excuse me as I'm getting ready to make a multi-million dollar wire transfer into one of my offshore accounts.

:hi:
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-03-08 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. I would like to ask Barney one question...
Why, in September of 2003, did he declare that there was no financial crisis at Fannie Mae and that he would resist any attempts to limit the size of Fannie Mae's portfolio or tighten regulations?
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
8. What you love apparently is spreading misinformation
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. You might want to read this
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D6123BF932A2575AC0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&&scp=3&sq=%202003%20fannie%20freddie%20labaton&st=cse

New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae
September 11, 2003

The new agency would have the authority, which now rests with Congress, to set one of the two capital-reserve requirements for the companies. It would exercise authority over any new lines of business. And it would determine whether the two are adequately managing the risks of their ballooning portfolios.

The plan is an acknowledgment by the administration that oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- which together have issued more than $1.5 trillion in outstanding debt -- is broken. A report by outside investigators in July concluded that Freddie Mac manipulated its accounting to mislead investors, and critics have said Fannie Mae does not adequately hedge against rising interest rates.

''There is a general recognition that the supervisory system for housing-related government-sponsored enterprises neither has the tools, nor the stature, to deal effectively with the current size, complexity and importance of these enterprises,'' Treasury Secretary John W. Snow told the House Financial Services Committee in an appearance with Housing Secretary Mel Martinez, who also backed the plan.

snip

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''
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That Guy 888 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Why do you think the bailout will be successful?
I've seen a few pro-bailout posts from you, but they never contain any supporting information. Could you provide some?
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. I and several others have been citing facts, correcting misinformation and giving analysis all week
Edited on Sat Oct-04-08 02:41 AM by depakid
typically it falls on deaf ears- or makes them cling to misinformation even more strongly:

As the study referenced here notes (about Republicans):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x385486

Perhaps the most accessible analysis I have seen was James Galbraith's piece the other day (which among other things- tell us why it's not a $700 Billion dollar giveaway of tax dollars, despite what people keep posting).

His conclusion is about the bill (he opposed the initial Paulson Plan) pretty much mirrors what I think:

"In short, as I said at the beginning, the bill is a vast improvement over the original Treasury proposal. Given the choice between approving or defeating the bill as it stands, I would urge supporting the bill. I do so without illusions. There need be no pretense that it will solve our underlying financial and economic problems. It will not. The purpose, in my view, is to get the financial system and the economy through the year, and into the hands of the next administration. That is a limited purpose, but a legitimate purpose. And it may be the most that can be accomplished for the time being."

The alternative would have been to let the sitation keep spiraling out of control- with credit freeze ups, companies in every sector of the economy unable to fill orders and make payroll- and ramping up layoffs to level not seen in 25+ years (which is what happens when short term credit is not accessible).

Some people clearly want that kind of crash- others are in denial of what would happen- and still others don't care to learn enough to understand, preferring simplistic ideology knee jerk responses to critically thinking.

More from Galraith on that point:

"Will this bill "unblock the channels of credit" and restore the economy to normal? I would answer in two parts. First, if it is the case that runs on money market funds are threatening the liquidity of the corporate financial system, urgent measures including the Treasury's insurance facility should be put in place to prevent that. Here the TARP plays a somewhat tangential role. Think of it as a slush fund with which Treasury can recapitalize banks as needed, for a time. But even though it is tangential, it may be a useful and perhaps necessary part of a program to prevent, or defer, a disaster.

Second, neither this program nor my FDIC proposal will prove sufficient to restore economic growth and high employment. For that purpose, resolution of the underlying housing problem, of the revenue problem of state and local governments, and of the wealth and income problems of retirees and other asset-dependent parts of the population are all essential. Those measures lie ahead; they will not be part of this bill.

However, the fate of this program will depend on the willingness of Congress to solve these problems at a later date. If the economy is allowed to stagnate, foreclosures will multiply and the financial system will continue to implode. Only a comprehensive approach to deal with the deeper issues of jobs, wages, pensions, and housing can generate the income streams necessary to make the mortgage burdens sustainable over time."

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=how_much_will_it_cost_and_will_it_come_soon_enough





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That Guy 888 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Thanks for your reply
First off, to clarify things, I'm not hoping for the destruction of our economy and a new great deppression. My opposition to this bill is based on somewhat shaky ground, basically a combination of the following:

1. A white paper from Weiss Research Inc. my sister's employer passed around titled "Proposed $700 Billion Bailout Is Too Little, Too Late to End the Debt Crisis; Too Much, Too Soon for the U.S. Bond Market" that did not go into the immediate credit shortfall, but instead took a look at the long term ramifications of the original bush plan.

2. Mistrust of bush and any crony/expert in his employ. No need to elaborate on that here, right? :)

3. Most of the economist that have articles online do not like the bush/paulson plan at all.

I think we're talking apples and oranges, reletively speaking. You are apparently correct about the credit crisis, but I'm worried about the long term consequences, included the theory that the bailout will soak up monetary resources limiting an Obama administrations choices and resources.

There doesn't seem to be any economists who feel this is a good bill beyond the short term fix to the credit crisis. A small sampling


from the James K. Galbraith article you cited titled How Much Will It Cost and Will It Come Soon Enough?

The question now is could the purposes of this bill be met with a smaller appropriation. In my view, the best way to answer that question is to ask: What problem does $700 billion solve? The answer to that is, we do not really know. On the face of it, the exposure to bad mortgage-backed securities is considerably larger; the purchase plan in the bill would inevitably bail out some inessential as well as essential investors and institutions, thus wasting a fraction of the resources; and we do not know the full extent to which banks need new capitalization in order to remain solvent. The reasonable presumption, therefore, is that TARP would buy time; one hears estimates that the authority would be used at a rate of $50 billion a month, though the basis for that estimate is not clear. A smaller appropriation would buy less time.

How much time is needed? There is in my view very little prospect that economic recovery will restore housing prices and personal incomes within a reasonable time -- that is, before the $700 billion runs out. Therefore, it seems to me unlikely that this issue will finish here; more will be needed at a later date. However, on the assumption that one can trust and monitor the actions of the Treasury to assure that it carries out its mandate in good faith, there is an argument for appropriating the full sum now: It will help ensure that the system will hold into next year. A smaller appropriation increases the risk of a major crisis in the relatively near term. By how much and when? No one can say.

If one does not trust the Treasury to act in good faith and in compliance with the spirit and letter of the monitoring and enforcement provisions, then of course there is no case for this bill.

Many are concerned with the fiscal implications of this bill, so let me turn to that question. Despite the common use of language, the capital cost of this bill does not involve "taxpayer dollars." It authorizes a financial transaction, exchanging good debt (U.S. Treasury bills and bonds) for bad debt (the "troubled assets"). Many of those troubled assets will continue to earn income for some time, perhaps a long time. The U.S. Treasury commits itself to paying the interest on the debts it issues. The net fiscal cost -- which is also the net fiscal stimulus -- of this bill is the difference between those two revenue streams. Given the very low rate of interest presently prevailing on Treasury bills, this is likely to be somewhere between $20 billion per year and zero from the beginning, even if the Treasury were to issue all $700 billion in new debt at once. It is a mistake, in short, to count the capital cost as a "cost to the taxpayer." This is not the war in Iraq.

here's an excerpt from the executive summary from the white paper that "had my hair on fire"(it does refer to the original bush/paulson plan) :
http://solari.com/blog/docs/Final-Bailout-White-Paper.pdf
Executive Summary
New data and analysis demonstrate that the proposal before Congress for a $700 billion financial industry bailout is too little, too late to end the massive U.S. debt crisis; and, at the same time, too much, too soon for the U.S. Government bond market where most of the funds would have to be raised.

I. Too Little, Too Late to End the Debt Crisis. Congress should
1. Disregard data based on the list of troubled banks maintained by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). The FDIC’s list currently has 117 institutions with $78 billion in assets. However, based on a broader analysis of recent FDIC call report data, we find that institutions at risk of failure include 1,479 FDIC member banks and 158 thrifts with total assets of $3.6 trillion, or 36 times the assets of banks on the FDIC’s list...

II. Too Much, Too Soon for the U.S. Bond Market. There should also be no illusion that the market for U.S. government securities can absorb the additional burden of a $700 billion bailout without putting dramatic upward pressure on U.S. interest rates.

The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) projects the 2009 federal deficit will rise to $482 billion. But adding the cost of announced and proposed bailouts, now approximately $1 trillion, it is undeniable that the federal deficit could double or triple in a short period of time, driving interest rates sharply higher and aggravating the very debt crisis that the bailout plan seeks to alleviate.

and from Paul Krugmann's blog

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/

Stockholm Syndrome

On Olbermann a few minutes ago (that basement classroom with the heavy paper over the windows and camera sure has come in handy lately!) a phrase popped out of my mouth: “Stockholm Syndrome”, with regard to the bailout rescue.

Here’s the thing: it’s very hard for Congress to originate complex financial rescues, so it’s normally up to the executive to put things together. Unfortunately, Paulson came up with an awful plan. Ideally, the Dems would have ripped the thing up and started over, but that was never realistic. So instead they made it significantly better, but still building on the original, misconceived structure; it became better than nothing, but not good.

And then it failed in the House, so the Senate has larded it up, with stuff like SEC. 503. EXEMPTION FROM EXCISE TAX FOR CERTAIN WOODEN ARROWS DESIGNED FOR USE BY CHILDREN.

I think that Congressional leaders know that it’s a bad bill, but feel compelled to defend it, because they’re (rightly) scared of the financial consequences of a second rejection. And to some extent economists like myself are in the same position; I think I called it the “hold your nose caucus.”

So am I for the bill? Yuk, phooey, I guess so. And I’m very angry at Paulson for putting us in this position.



October 1, 2008, 10:08 am
Bailout narratives


...There’s a reason Paulson et al had such a hard time communicating the case for their plan - they didn’t have a very good case. To this day they’ve never been able to explain clearly why buying up bad mortgage assets at market prices will solve the credit crunch. The Wise Men, as far as I can tell, have never had a clear idea of what they’re doing.

My view, which I think is now shared by many economists, is that Paulson grabbed hold of the wrong end of the stick - he should have been seeking to expand bank capital, taking an ownership share in compensation, rather than trying to push up the value of toxic paper. In the end, that’s what we’ll probably do.


On the other hand, the way that Paulson et al have been blundering around puts the lie, I think, to the idea that this is a cynical ploy. Ideology certainly played a role - it’s probably a lingering distaste for Evil Socialism that made Treasury go for buying toxic waste rather than injecting capital. And if the Bush years have taught us anything, it is that sometimes conspiracy theories are right. But in this case the performance has been more Keystone Kops than Star Chamber.

So now what? Like Jamie Galbraith, I’d rather see Dodd-Frank-Paulson, which is much better than the original plan, pass than not. The true cost to taxpayers will probably be close to zero, and it would buy some time. But I’m not passionate about this. The real financial rescue still lies in the future, probably under the Obama administration.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. What are you talking about?
When he starts with that cute little lisp I just melt! He can sell me down the river anytime.

:loveya:
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. you op and this comment are yucky
and nothing but anti-gay stereotyping.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Have you got a problem with loveable pink dinosaurs?
So defensive.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
12. LOL
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
15. The propaganda meme keep changing;
first it was, pass this now, or Depression! then, credit has dried up, and now, pass it so they can fix it later. What will it be, next?
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Next? We need more money!!! nt
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. That's right! Forgot that one from today.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-04-08 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
18. He's happy, happy, happy ...
capitulist. Maaaaaaaaaarvelous.
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