How many believe our economy would have collapsed without this bailout bill passing as is?

[yurbud]

[shugah]

1. i know of no one who has a job offer

or any extra money to pay the mortgage since this bill passed. :shrug:

[yurbud]

2. they could have at least frozen foreclosures and forced them to renegotiate

[Virginia Dare]

10. The Federal Government will own those bad mortgages now..

and I hope that is what they'll do with them, I don't see any other option. Now at least the money will come back to them, and not straight back to the banks.

[yurbud]

14. it would have been a more ''market-based'' to make lenders do and make them clean up their own mess

[Virginia Dare]

15. True, but I guess they were past that point...n/t

[yurbud]

20. and on to the hor d'oeuvres at the country club

[Virginia Dare]

27. That's the good old American way...

and it has been going back to the Virginia Company days. Nothing changes. Hey, we're making history again, yay us!

[WhiteTara]

38. while they are waiting for their planes

to the Bahamas or Cayman Islands

[Laelth]

36. Sorry, but that's not my understanding.

The federal government won't own any mortgages. They will be buying toxic "mortgage-backed securities," not the mortgages themselves. Foreclosures will continue, and the securities backed by those mortgages will continue to be worthless. We are getting ripped off. We are buying worthless paper.

-Laelth

[renie408]

26. You mean, you don't know anybody who has gotten a job offer in the past 2 hours?

[Swamp Rat]

3. biggest heist in history

[fascisthunter]

32. It Really Is....

[TexasObserver]

4. No, the economy is going to whatever regardless of this.

It's just too bad congress didn't pass a law prohibiting water from flowing into New Orleans once the levees broke.

[OhioChick]

5. No Jobs = No Money for Mortgages, Credit Cards, etc.

This bailout is a joke for "mainstreet." The economy will tank and a depression will come.....people need JOBS.

[AndyA]

6. This is going to turn into a huge, stinking, nasty mess...

...about 4-6 months after Obama takes office. And the Republicans will nail him to the cross over it, like it's all his fault. He better start dealing with it NOW. Obama will be a one term President and we will lose Congress in 2010...it's all in the plan.

[Virginia Dare]

11. Luckily Obama is smarter than they are by a wide, wide margin..n/t

[Pastiche423]

31. Smarter?

He voted FOR the bailout.

That is not smart in my book.

[snappyturtle]

7. Something needs to be done to reign in the fat cats but this wasn't it

by a long shot. We've been had once again. There are other solutions that were posed and the elected 'representatves' chose not to take the time to consider them. They caved in to Paulson's threats. Time will tell us more.

[yurbud]

9. I had a strong preference for tar and feathering ANIMATION:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJzJuc69YgU

[ben_meyers]

8. Nothing that FDR and the government could do

did anything to end the depression until "Lend Lease" and WW ll. Who ever inherits this cluster fark is going to have to face the crap hitting the fan, and the new face of the bailout is Barney Franks and the Democratic Party.

Good luck.

[pleah]

12. We've just been raped and charged for the rape kit!

[yurbud]

16. then they will charge us for bleeding on the carpet.

[pleah]

17. Yep! n/t

[moodforaday]

37. That's a pretty good summation! (nt)

[Strelnikov_]

13. Seems the opinion on DU is evenly divided n/t

[tom_paine]

59. Divided into the usual division: Those who believe what their TVs and the Bushies tell them

and those of us who can SEE THROUGH IT.

You'd think at DU, there would be a higher-proportion of one-third who can see and two-thirds blind and following the "conventional wisdom" which is now Bushie Wisdom.

Of course, even now with so many people pissed yet not knowing what they are pissed at, that number in the "Real World" is probably about 1%, so DU "delivers the goods", given that everything is relative.

But 30% conscious self-awareness, in what is likely to be one of the most conscious self-aware places on the web...DU?

That simply doesn't bode well for the idea that America will ever be free again. It mean, I think that we simply don't have enough people "seeing through the eyes of the Founders" to turn back the clock.

TV says Tim Russert was a great journalist. 2/3rds of DUers maintain Tim Russert was a great journalist.

TV says panic and fear and bailout. 2/3rds of DUers say panic and fear and bailout.

Don't know whether to laugh or cry. Can ANY nation survive with such a 1930s German mentality, where even among the most conscious and aware, two-thirds have Blindness and Slavish Devotion to Conventional Wisdom (which is now 100% Bushie Wisdom)?

I think not. Every day the proof rises here at DU and out in the Real World. Point of no return...passed. America free? Never again.

The evidence is overwhelming. We have reached a critical mass of mental-weakness, ignorance, apathy, and zombificiation by TV and the Bush False Reality Bubble. Two thirds of us (I am speaking of the Real World here, not DU) are 1930s Germans. One-Third of us are Bushie-Nazis, more than enough to man the watchtowers and stoke the crematoria (or whatever it will be THIS time around).

And 1% of us can see. 30% at DU. We have the most to fear from the coming storm, for traditionally, it is the conscious and the intellectuals who are the first to be targeted. Current Bushie Inverted Totalitarian Doctrine, becasuse of the need to keep mass expressions of tyranny to a minimum, currently focuses on silencing and ignoring and drowning out such people, rather than beating and killing us.

I think that Bushie Inverted Totalitarianism will by necessity quickly revert to it's brutal Classical Totalitarian Form when the economy gets REALLY BAD or the Bushies 9/11 us again.

There is probably less than a 1% chance of coming back from that which is so very vry VERY far gone.

Now, go pay you $810,000,000,000 to your Masters, 2/3rds of DU and 99% of the Amerikan Subject Populace. And do it with a SMILE or the Bushie HS will see you.

[girl gone mad]

18. You need an option for:

We missed our chance to pass something that would have worked.

[yurbud]

22. that's a good question for a different poll.

[lostnotforgotten]

19. Bend Over Democrats - You Have A Reamin a Comin!

eom

[yurbud]

21. Obama might still win, but Dems just made Congress competitive for GOP

they have a knack for shooting themselves in the foot whenever they're ahead (or behind or in a dead heat).

[lostnotforgotten]

23. Yep! Agreed! We Lose All Round!

eom

[Sebastian Doyle]

25. Which is EXACTLY what the DLC wants.

Because if we have a REAL majority, they run out of excuses to act like the cowardly Repukes that they are.

[Virginia Dare]

28. No, the people are clamoring for more government now, not less..

the sheeple wake up when their pocketbooks are effected.

[yurbud]

34. problem is, Dems just made it look like they are for corporate-owned government

[Sebastian Doyle]

24. Chimpy just got away with the same scam that his grandpa & Herbert Hoover set up.

The Second Bush Crime Family Great Depression will still happen, but the billionaires will be able to secure their money in the Caymans or where ever, and Chimpy himself will be safely in South America (like any good retired Nazi dictator) before the artificial floor drops out and the repukes blame it all on President Obama. :grr:

[Virginia Dare]

29. The stage was set long before today..

they just made sure that this was the only option available. Something tells me it wasn't supposed to start before the election, but the Chinese may have given it a little push.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. The same people that P.T. Barnum was so fond of.

[jtrockville]

33. Ya got that right!

""

[Douglas Carpenter]

35. collapse is a strong term - I'm not sure that is the term I would use

Almost all economist agree and all evidence indicates that there is a dangerous drying up of the credit markets - the capital necessary to provide loans. Without these loans - particularly short term loans - many businesses and much state and municipal government services will simply grind to a trickle. Without loans, major purchase such as cars, houses and will simply grind to a trickle.

To reduce the danger of such an economic depression it is absolutely necessary to take dramatic measure to restore confidence in banks so that capital will once again flow into the investment instruments which support lending.

Will this "bailout" provide that confidence? It hopefully will help make a very bad situation only very bad instead of very, very, very, bad.

Could it have been approached different? I definitely think so. But that was not the deal on offer.

[yurbud]

41. I'd modify it to whatever level of crisis Paulson & Bush were claiming

[JackRiddler]

39. It will collapse anyway, but the money won't just go for Wall Street...

Much of it will be recycled back to holders of US mortgage securities in the countries of the foreign central banks, who are going to buy much of the $700 billion (actually $830 billion) in T-bills the Treasury will have to issue for this boondoggle.

!!! 1.2 TRILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT !!!

[depakid]

40. The panic would have continued unabated

which apparently is what a lot DU'ers wanted. Some of the posts in that regard were quite explicit and vidictive.

[TexasObserver]

42. So it's 15% that are making all the noise here in support of the bailout.

A tiny number of posters who are each vehemently supportive of the bailout. Hmmmm.

[Douglas Carpenter]

43. along with the nice gentleman in your avatar and his running mate

[Douglas Carpenter]

50. which was Joe Biden - who you have just decided to remove from your Avatar, well okay

[TexasObserver]

54. Yes, President Bush, Dick Cheney, and the entire GOP leadership in congress agree with you.

[Douglas Carpenter]

55. along with Barack Obama, Joe Biden and the entire Democratic leadership along with

Barney Frank - one of the most progressive members of the House of Representatives and Chris Dodd one of the most progressive members of the the Senate - those two practically wrote the revised version of the bipartisan recovery package.

Anyone is welcome to check my journal if they wish and they will see that I am one of the most left-wing members of DU. I like my parents am a lifelong democratic-socialist. Backing this bill certainly does run counter to my ideology and even my principles. But there is a time in which humanity must take precedence over ideology. There is a time when facts must take precedence over emotions.

[depakid]

44. It's surprising that many are willing to hang in against mob rule

and try to offer reason.

[Douglas Carpenter]

46. IF...........

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

by Rudyard Kipling



.

http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_if.htm

.

sorry for the 19th century personal pronouns -- It was written more than a hundred years ago.

[countryjake]

47. That's the Way that the World Goes 'Round

I know a guy that's got a lot to lose.
He's a pretty nice fellow but he's kind of confused.
He's got muscles in his head that ain't never been used.
Thinks he own half of this town.

Starts drinking heavy, gets a big red nose.
Beats his old lady with a rubber hose,
then he takes her out to dinner and buys her new clothes.
That's the way that the world goes 'round.

That's the way that the world goes 'round.
You're up one day and the next you're down.
It's half an inch of water and you think you're gonna drown.
That's the way that the world goes 'round.

I was sitting in the bathtub counting my toes,
when the radiator broke, water all froze.
I got stuck in the ice without my clothes,
naked as the eyes of a clown.
I was crying ice cubes hoping I'd croak,
when the sun come through the window, the ice all broke.
I stood up and laughed thought it was a joke
That's the way that the world goes 'round.

That's the way that the world goes 'round.
You're up one day and the next you're down.
It's half an inch of water and you think you're gonna drown.
That's the way that the world goes 'round.

[Fire Walk With Me]

45. The economy is in bad shape and could easily get worse

but just like WMD, "failing" Social Security, Al Queda in Iraq, no war for oil, support our troops (google cuts at VA hospitals), and everything else out of their mouths, NO.

Always remember. They want something, so they create the conditions in which to get it. If they ever ask for something, look to see if they've done nothing (or worse, done something) to get to where they feel safe to ask for it.

It does look to get a lot worse, however, due to these same liars having their fingers so deeply in it. A body won't heal unless the cancer is fully removed.

[Greyhound]

48. It's not often that our polls are this clear. Here's a kick. n/t

[countryjake]

49. As a prelude to debtor camps, soup lines, gassing, rubber bullets, who knows what else...

we just got beat with that proverbial rubber hose.

[depakid]

51. When people hear things like that

They think- looney left.

It destroys anyones credibility to get anything done.

[countryjake]

64. As opposed to being sold down the river by Corporate Rule?

Do you even know anyone who has to rely on food banks to put decent suppers on their tables? Or already waits patiently in line for that free meal that gets offered toward the end of each month? Or received grapefruit-sized bruises from the projectiles fired into folk who object to supporting and maintaining the humongous military industrial conglomerate that the USA stands on...innocent peace-loving people who were already gagging on the chemical irritants they were sprayed with?

Sorry that in your world nobody seems to be aware that most common people are already suffering and have been for years, now. That the trust and respect for the ability of our government to even give one shit about hard working folk, small struggling farmers, aging vets, desperate single moms, and millions of sick, literally, dying people...is long gone. Kaput!

The people who I know believe it cause they can see it already, right now, in their everyday lives and they have no qualms about the failures of this system we live under, since they've had first-hand experience with "bought the farm" as their four generation land was auctioned off for chicken feed, then watched as their husband, son, brother, died a slow death trying to make it in a filthy hovel, only to be left with a mountain of unpayable medical bills.

People who've worked their fingers to the bone, faithfully making-do each month, just so they could put away a little into that retirement account, then finding that merely eking could no longer heat the house each winter, and being forced to tap into their old-age. Those sort of folk, who trusted that they were doing the smart thing, only to discover that they'd been tossed aside and forgotten, in the name of sustaining some imaginary "war on terror" and securing American "interests", run-away shops of repression, in far-away lands, to line the pockets of the few who profit from such naked aggression.

Nope. What very few of the reliable left that truly does exist and has actually spent years agitating and educating and organizing folk to see the rot that is the core of our entire government system, can only gain further credibility, as the entire shebang implodes upon itself, whilst all the red, blue, green, and white parties scramble to claim that they have the "remedy" and only lead us further down the abyss.

Not a thing "loony" about it. It is real, too real.

[roamer65]

52. We simply are not going to have a deflationary depression.

The gov't and the Federal Reserve are injecting massive amounts of freshly created currency into the markets in order to prop themup and we have not seen the end of it yet.

[TexasObserver]

53. We just gave a fat bonus to Wall St. and it's all going into their off-shore tax haven accounts.

[Douglas Carpenter]

56. do you have ANY evidence to support that charge?

[TexasObserver]

60. Do you even know what "evidence" is?

[Douglas Carpenter]

61. so you don't have any evidence. That's what I thought

[TexasObserver]

63. That's what I thought. Someone who doesn't know evidence when he sees it.

Kid, waste someone else's time. Your level of knowledge is so limited, you should be talking to kindergarten children about your ideas.

[upi402]

57. thotso n/t kick!

[johnaries]

58. Wait a minute, "as is"? I don't like your qualifier, so I can't vote.

But it would have collapsed if we hadn't passed a bill.

[Buns_of_Fire]

62. It just passed the House and was signed by chucklenutz on Friday.

I was thinking, y'know, maybe we should give it few days at least -- a few business days, not just the weekend -- and see how it looks like it's shaking out. I didn't expect a chorus of angels to descend the moment pres. shit-fer-brains put his "X" on the bill, and neither did I expect the firmament to be rent asunder. It took a while to dig in this deep, I expect it to take more than a weekend to start digging out -- or perhaps digging deeper.

Just a thought before the fors and the antis begin baring their teeth at each other.