Kucinich: "This plan is immoral, it's a disgrace."

[JonLP24]

That is all I needed to know.

[magellan]

1. I'm with DK and the Progressive Caucus

But they aren't being listened to.

One day, not too long after the $700 billion bailout goes through, and things keep getting worse, and BushCo and the Fed "scare" another bailout out of the corporatists on both sides of the aisle, I predict we'll see the makings of the next step: martial law.

[dkf]

2. Listening to Kucinich makes me scared.

He is such an impractical person. His "solutions" wouldn't address the liquidity problems that we are facing. I get the feeling he wouldn't care if our financial system collapsed.

[lostnfound]

6. Growing up in a car and fighting your way into Congress makes you so impractical.

Not.
He cares deeply and single-mindedly about the financial system of America's working class (as well as its poor), and he cares about fairness.
I highly recommend reading Shock Doctrine, and considering the investigation into whether or not the current crisis has been intentionally manufactured.

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. Why do you believe throwing money at the perpetrators will fix somethng?

And how, exactly is it going to work? What happens to the money? Why can't we prosecute them if they steal it? Why should some of them not already be in custody awaiting trial?

They could tell us all of the above in ten minutes. Why won't they tell us? Why and WHAT are they hiding? WHAT do they intend to do with that cash, exactly? I know you don't know the answer to these questions. So why are you on their side?

[dkf]

15. The problem is that our financial companies have mortgages

whose collateral (houses) are collapsing in value.

When these values fall and continue to fall and their owners default, the companies are having to write down a whole lot of assets. Now they are clogged up with bad loans and can't make new ones because their capital is all tied up.

And when they look at the financial companies that they need to deal with in order to conduct their normal business, they think everyone around them is on the verge of collapsing too so they are too scared to transact with everyone else.

If we can't get this crap off their books, any of these institutions may be on the verge of failure.

Frankly, the first people who will suffer are the poor and the middle class who use their credit cards to get from paycheck to paycheck. When banks start chopping credit limits and even canceling cards for those with not so hot fico scores, its not the rich who will suffer. When companies can't make their payrolls because their line of credit has been cut, its not the rich who will suffer. The rich have a cushion, the middle class/poor don't.

Yes, the rich will be less rich, but its the middle class/poor that won't be able to pay their bills.

But Dennis Kucinich would let the financial system fail because he doesn't want to "bail out" the rich.

I find that ironic.

[Cronus Protagonist]

18. You did not answer even ONE of my questions

Not one. Have you ever considered being a politician? They are good at not answering simple questions too.

[dkf]

20. Umm...your "throwing money at the perpetrators" equals my

"getting the crap off their books".

I answered your question, you just didn't understand it.

And what happens to the money is we give them the money, they give us the crap loans...eventually the crap loans will recover and we will get a lot of our money back, maybe even more than we gave.

[Cronus Protagonist]

31. Oh, I see, you beleive that throwing money at the perpetrators WILL do something magical

OK, I understand that belief, but it appears to be baseless, hopeful, yes, but baseless. Now for question #2, HOW is this bailout going to FIX the problem? I think you know where I'm going with this, so I won't list the rest of the questions that you cannot answer.

Remember, the person controlling the money will be an uninidctable Wall Street financier, industry lobbyist and influence peddler.

Now tell us all how handing him NNN Billion bucks is going to help? (this is something that even Paulson himself has not answered, so I'd be impressed if you could)

If you'd like to also answer my other questions, this would go a little faster. And feel free to address the clear cut conflict of interests inherent in this bail out. You get extra credit for that :P

[dkf]

38. It will fix the problem we have right now, which is that financial

companies capital is in bad shape.

That means they need an infusion of $ somehow.

But if you just buy equity or preferred shares to infuse them with cash, they are still vulnerable to subsequent declines in the values of their mortgages. If you buy it off them, then they don't have to keep on trying what the value of this stuff is worth and needing more capital when it falls.

[Ghost in the Machine]

21. No, the problem is with people who keep borrowing when they *know* they can't pay

.. and speaking of ironic:

"Frankly, the first people who will suffer are the poor and the middle class who use their credit cards to get from paycheck to paycheck. When banks start chopping credit limits and even canceling cards for those with not so hot fico scores, its not the rich who will suffer. When companies can't make their payrolls because their line of credit has been cut, its not the rich who will suffer. The rich have a cushion, the middle class/poor don't."

These are they very people I'm talking about. People who go out to eat and spend $30 -$40 on dinner once or twice a week (or more) and charge it. These people who keep trying to live above their means while going deeper and deeper in debt. It's crazy the way some people always feel the need to have the newest car, biggest house, latest cell phone or other gadgets.

Credit cards should be reserved for emergency use only. The *only* thing anyone should *need* credit for is buying a home or vehicle... or for a major appliance, should one quit working and needs to be replaced quickly. Then you should try to pay that appliance off in a '90 days same as cash' deal.

People need to quit trying to keep up with the Trumps and/or Hiltons and start thinking really hard about the difference in what they *want* and what they *need*. Live within your means and be happy doing it... your life, and your bank account, will be much better because of it...

[dkf]

23. That is a problem also.

I live by the one credit card rule myself. Even when I was in college I always had a decent cushion in cash. Thank goodness for state universities!

I hate debt.

[Ghost in the Machine]

27. I've used a credit card two times in my life.. and I'm 45 years old...

I just can't imagine getting so deep in debt using credit cards that your whole paycheck is going toward paying the monthly minimums on them. I knew someone like that... she had about 12 freakin' credit cards for *everything* from gas stations (BP, Shell, Exxon) to department stores (Dillard's, Sears) and VISA, Master Card & Discover Card. She was over $30,000 in debt and was bringing home $700/wk (sometimes more) and was always broke. That's no way for *anyone* to live, yet there are millions out there living exactly that way.... and all it takes is one accident or illness, the paychecks stop coming in and you're losing everything you've got...

I hate debt, too... that's why everything I've got is paid for..

[dhpgetsit]

34. I believe there are better ways to solve the problem

The bill that almost passed was deeply flawed. Built into it were provisions that there could be no oversight and no prosecution as a result of misuse of the money.

If we take a deep breath and allow cooler heads to prevail, a better bill can be crafted that would better protect the taxpayers.

It takes real guts to stand up for what's right sometimes, and Kucinich does that consistently.

[dkf]

37. Kucinich hasn't suggested anything that will work immediately.

Like I said, he is does not address what needs to be done NOW. The pain can't wait for this $ to trickle up.

[The 12th Guru]

30. The Indian PM, a finance expert sees the liquidity problem

And I trust him even though Bush loves the guy which is something that could make anyone stink.

Here is excerpt from his Speech a few days ago at the India EU summit. If your wondering about his qualifications, he got his masters in finance at Cambridge, where he received the Adam Smith Prize of the University of Cambridge and the Wright's Prize for Distinguished Performance at St. John's College in Cambridge. He has his PHD from Oxford, and has been awarded numerous honorary degrees from prestigious universities for his post grad work, especially as finance minister of India from 91-96 when he liberalized the Indian economy and is credited with starting the globalization of their economy, and in 2004 he became PM and continueing down that path.

PM's speech at the Indo-EU Business Summit


September 30, 2008
Paris, France

The global economy faces uncertain times. The crisis in the financial markets has cast its shadow on global liquidity. We have also seen sharp rises in petroleum and food prices. It is unfortunate that just as many developing countries were beginning to benefit from the positive potential of globalisation, the tide has turned and the economic prospects have deteriorated.


I emphasise the urgent need to restore confidence in the functioning of international financial markets and in the collective ability to coordinate macro economic policy in the major economies in a manner conducive to the restoration of global growth.


http://pmindia.nic.in/speech/content4print.asp?id=722

[w4rma]

8. The financial system can be saved in other ways than bailing out a select few large buisinesses.

Kucinich proposes other methods. In fact bailing out these select few big businesses will probably NOT save our system.

[dkf]

17. He wants to pay for the mortgages of people in default.

Do you know how long it will take for that to trickle up to the institutional level? By that time the whole thing is screwed.

Like I said, the guy is impractical.

He is trying to solve a longer term problem, while letting the short term collapse.

[depakid]

12. My thoughts exactly

[Greyhound]

3. Obvious K&R.

Off to the greatest with 2 replies.
:D


WAKE UP AMERICA!

[Waiting For Everyman]

4. God bless him for speaking up for sanity.

You know, the banks haven't been lending to Main Street all summer anyhow. Eventually they are going to have to lend to somebody. They don't a problem, they are simply on strike. They get money for less than 2% and lend it at 9 or 15 or 20 or 30%. Come on, now. Even their "normal operations" are absurd.

They get money almost for nothing, and their response to everything, including the crisis which their own shady loans caused, is to CHARGE MORE for "greater risk"??? Give me a break! Everything is an excuse to gouge more and more and more... they're just like the "say anything" Repub politicians.

This is all theater. The $700bn will not loosen up lending to Main Street anyway. They will have to be ordered to do it, and how to do it, and with interest caps on doing it, and this bill is our only way of accomplishing that. Or... sane lending just won't happen.

[TexasObserver]

5. I'm behind Obama even with his support of this, but I agree with Kucinich, Doggett and others.

[aquart]

14. Obama is our candidate. He has one job now: Get elected.

And I'm not one as ever expected him to be my savior so I'm not dithering that he's taking the party's idiot position. It won't be the last time.

But you know, I like my Mayor Bloomberg who frequently gets incorrect notions. God bless our contentious state and local governments who refuse to let him have congestion pricing (clears Manhattan streets for limos) or westside stadium (with no increase in westside subway lines and no parking whatsoever) or the Olympics (just what a terror-struck town wants, a fucking bullseye).

It is not our job to obey him. It is his to get us what we want as cheaply and excellently as possible. We do not want this stupid stupid excuse for a bailout of billionaires.

[Pooka Fey]

9. Dennis nails it, again. The bailout plan has 'shock doctrine' written all over it. nt

[Alpharetta]

10. I trust him. He's probably right

Candidates have to "do something" or they'll get tagged with "doing nothing" about the traumatic stock correction we cannot avoid.

DK knows it will probably make things worse. More money printed, higher treasury yields will be needed to keep our overseas investors funding our ballooning deficit, higher interest rates overall as a result, more foreclosures and tighter credir, more bank failures despite the bailout.

[Norrin Radd]

11. kr

[Peace Patriot]

13. K&R! Fund the people at the BOTTOM, not the top, and they will re-capitalize

the economy, as usual, with their hard, productive, loyal WORK.

And why the rush? Elections are one month away; a change of administrations is only three months away. And politicians with a 10% approval rating (Congress) are giving this stupid, murderous, lying, lame-duck president, with a 25% approval rating, a bottomless cup of Fool's Gold, starting with $700 BILLION??!!

It's nuts. Let the next president and the next Congress do it, whatever it's going to be. New faces will bring NEW THOUGHTS--and maybe some great old ones (like FHA loans to the poor!).

I repeat: WHY THE RUSH, a month before elections?

[MrSlayer]

16. But he's a radical whacko who claims he was abducted by aliens.

Kooch is one of the very few real, old school Democrats out there. It's tragic that he is marginalized, even by his own. He is where our party should be.

[Ghost in the Machine]

19. Please provide a link to Dennis Kucinich saying he was "abducted by aliens"...

Thanks...

[MrSlayer]

24. I was being sarcastic.

Parodying what a right-wing propagandist might say about him. I thought the body of my post would have conveyed my true feelings about the man.

[Ghost in the Machine]

25. Ok, cool... thanks..

I'll get my sarcasm detector recalibrated later today...

Personally, I know a few people who I think are whacko, but they do a lot of good work for a lot of people so I overlook the little 'whacko' part... so I could see me making a statement like yours without being sarcastic..

:hi:

Peace,

Ghost

[lamp_shade]

22. Dennis being Dennis. I'm unaffected.

[screembloodymurder]

26. Denis is the only man I trust.

Marcy Kaptur too.

[The 12th Guru]

28. His view is too simplistic and misleading

He keeps saying taxpayers are giving 700 billion

I heard the final plan calls for only 250 billion at first and maybe thats all it will take

He argues that borrowing from a bank to give to a bank doesn't make sense

Borrowing another 250 billion and using it with appropriate transparency and oversight to help American corporations not die, help confidence return atleast partially, help our market not collapse, is a good thing. Saving american jobs, americans retirement funds, and preventing a situation where the collapse of our banking system and stock market cause a global recession.

Why don't we roll Iraqs 79 billion surplus out of their treasury in wheelbarrows to start with, and tell them the tab for trying to keep the place stable for the last few years is a few hundred billion more that we are going to pump out of their sand. I would rather 250 billion spent on this than the 250 billion Iraq is still going to supposedly cost us till we are out of there.

[druidity33]

29. the place was stable

before we got there. The only problem was that they were HEAVILY sanctioned... by guess whom?

:eyes:

[The 12th Guru]

32. Iraq, Brits created it, and its always has been a military controlled state

They occupied it for 30 years and finally gave up

A General and his army took over the power vaccuum

US propped up a freindly General, Saddam in his place, armed him with missiles and biologicals and supplied him with cia intelligence from satellites on enemy positions so he knew where to strike Iran during there war, and then continued to sell him along with other countries a huge amount of arms. He was our ally and his military power, secular beliefs and crazyness acted as a counterbalance to the region and prevented the middle east from joining together in some fundamental islamic oil kingdom.


Both Bushes went there for oil reasons, the father was smart enough to keep him alive and in power, just let him know that stoping that oil contract with kuwait and his buddies was the wrong thing to do and convinced our allies to give us the troop support and I believe iraq paid for our costs. Dubya was an idiot plus he had some crazy fundamentalist beliefs like God told him to attack iraq and it was his job to lead a crusade to the holy land, and he had the whole crew behind him manipulating the truth and convincing him this would bring him historical greatness, lol. He even figured out he was an idiot and got rid of his own Bush Doctrine, lol.

[jonnyblitz]

33. handing over billions of dollars to the criminals who CAUSED

this mess is SHEER INSANITY and the dipshits that support this insanity have the fucking audacity to call those of us against this STUPID? i suggest their IGNORANT asses look in the MIRROR.

[bdamomma]

35. kick

[xiamiam]

36. Kucinich supports a plan..just not this plan..I trust him and his lion heart..

the rush is the problem...we've been rushed into giving the president unprecedented war powers, the patriot act, rushed to fund no bid contracts...and now rushed to give unprecedented power to spend unprecedented money with mimimal intervention and no pay limits for ceos.....if Dennis says its a disgrace, it most probably is...