23 reasons this bailout is a stick up and worse.

[undergroundpanther]

Let me start with this..
It is obvious as jobs go overseas that America has become a DEBTOR nation which means we don't even OWN all of our own country anymore.China owns alot of OUR country because we are in DEBT to them for all the cheap or toxic Chinese goods we imported,and than hand China IOU's for it. What if China said pay up up on those IOU's USA? WE WOULD BE Sooo FUCKED..Walmart would be freaking out for sure.
On top of being a debtor nation who likes things cheap as possible(read something for nothing) we do not PRODUCE much of our own wealth here anymore. This is a HORRIBLE position for a nation to be in.

When was it decided that America would be a DEBTOR/CONSUMER nation? How did that come to be? And how is being in hock up to our eyeballs consuming and consuming but not producing all that much wealth to export suddenly become sound financial planning?
And..Wall street it does not NEED this bailout RIGHT NOW.
It can WAIT. Don't let Wall street pigs EXTORT the American People with this stick up, the fear is all bull shit.Let the banks holding guns to their own heads threatening doom, shoot themselves.

I oppose the bailout Because...

# 1 Bernanke and Paulson can not explain the problem that caused this mess coherently.Maybe they can't think of a plausible lie that would sound good enough or complicated enough to justify bamboozling people to accept this stick up.

#2 These are toxic trash loans the government would be buying from the banks..They cannot be "valued" accurately.Really nobody knows the actual value of these bad assets the banks claim they won't touch it.Would you invest in something that you had NO CLUE of how much it was worth,or would you? Would you buy it if you knew it was worthless and just hold onto that four leaf clover and rabbits foot and hope you didn't just do something you will regret? Would you buy it after the bubble busted and everything drops closer to it's actual value.. meaning the inflated cost of 7 billion dollar bet is mostly lost money once actual values of said properties return to sane levels.

Say goodbye to universal health care.Exactly what these bankers DO NOT want us to have.Because foreclosures go to the BANKS,and the biggest cause of foreclosures? MEDICAL BILLS.And Michael Moore is correct on THAT.

This guy is from MIT and he knows the value of these bad loans cannot be figured out.
Please indulge a retired MIT Engineer here at 9000 feet in Colorado, and comment please :
These toxic CDOs in the most part will never mature because of the foreclosure rate of underlying liar loans - thus hold -to-maturity is meaningless and Bernanke certainly knows this. More importantly, how de we unwind the securities that were created from hundreds of thousands of loans hashed by Wall Street Banks into millions of individual securities then sold to thousands of investors world wide………if you know, please post ? I contend this is why no one can cleanly valuate the securities and retrieve real assets (houses) from the swamp.
You may have the answer and the devil is in the hashing and reverse engineering of these securities back to assets.
Help please or direct me to someone who can discuss this with me. Also, a WSJ or other newswire article on this precise topic is long overdue.Don Reynerson
[e-mail]


#3The 700 Billion number was pulled out of someones ass, literally .They just picked a REALLY BIG NUMBER. NOW that's real sign of having financial smarts isn't it? And that isn't including the $1 trillion or so of the money about to arrive to the banks when all those Adjustable rate mortgages start going up next year.These wall street pigs speculate to create bubbles of speculation without creating ANY wealth to back it up. No wonder it POPS and the American people LOSE..

#4 Ever notice how the market jumps when people lose jobs or disasters occur or war breaks out? See Naomi Klein's book Shock Doctrine.


#5 There is a minority of powerful people,Who own too much.



#6 Short Sellers and Upticks.
Short selling thugs claim that removal of the uptick rule had nothing to do with this market fall. BULLSHIT!! The evidence proves it DOES. When this abusive short selling shit is controlled and regulated or even eliminated..Remember SEC did this with a temporary order, financial stocks recovered a little. If you want to prevent criminal short selling, and the shit that causes this kind of mess, reinstate the uptick rule.Dammit.


#7 If Goldman claims that current prices are such a bargain why aren't’t other private parties rushing in to buy them and there is no market for them?

#8 Why use the bailout $$ just to prop up middlemen that do nothing of real value and shift numbers around ,gamble with other people's money and get overpaid for it?

#9 “The world,” explained Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, “no longer has the capacity to absorb fake U.S. dollars.”

#10 America and its citizens need to learn how to better live within their means.It means saving up for a big purchase.Or going without it and asking do I really NEED this? Or learning how to barter and Share.

#11 all the banks and other corporations WHO DID NOT BUY INTO THIS GIANT PONZI SCHEME WILL BE JUST FINE.It is the criminals that will have to take the hit,and SHOULD.

#12 This mess is the result of HOUSE STEALING.

'House Stealing' Scam Combines Identity Theft, Mortgage Fraud
Thieves steal and sell your house, leaving you stuck with the mortgage!!
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/03/house_stealing.html
Why are the housing brokers being investigated by the FBI for?
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/09/24/fbi-investigation.html
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article4815532.ece
http://www.wabusinessnews.com.au/en-story/1/66770/AIG-faces-FBI-investigation
(regardless of what's built there LAND is a kind of wealth,because if you exist you need a PLACE to exist at.This whole speculation bubble the arms all of it was a land grab to force people to have no place to LIVE.Without having to PAY someone to exist there,and if they can't afford it,they'll be homeless and therefore they can be controlled.made to heed a 'master, maybe a financial dictator like Bush's buddy Bernake?..
"It sounds like Paulson is asking to be a financial dictator, for a limited period of time." --Historian John Steele Gordon

#13 And have you noticed?? This bailout drama,and all the fear mongering,and such has successfully DISTRACTED US from these SERIOUS FBI investigations into major players in the speculation and housing markets that created this mess doesn't it?

#14 It is not NECESSARY!! OR URGENTLY NEEDED NOW!!!
Ely: Look, all of the fallout we are seeing in the markets today is part of clearing the detritus from the last speculative bubble. The housing bubble has to be allowed to collapse in order to clear the markets.
http://www.rgemonitor.com/financemarkets-monitor/253730/banking_expert_bailout_not_necessary_industry_can_take_losses
http://www.truthout.org/092608R
http://www.miamiherald.com/692/story/701956.html

#15 This part of the original bill said:
"Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-re-viewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. This puts the Treasury's actions beyond the rule of law. This is a financial coup d'etat"
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/why-you-should-hate-treasury-bailout.html
Since Paulson had the AUDACITY to put that kind of language in the original bailout.. why on EARTH would you TRUST these traitors to do what's right for the PEOPLE?? Isn't it kinda stupid to give money to such treasonous greedy criminals? Criminals UNDER INVESTIGATION already by the FBI.

#16 Ben Bernanke, secretly handed over $200 billion in a tryst with *mortgage bank industry speculators*. Bernanke was using government taxpayers money to fund that 200 billion.
If He can just pickpocket 200 billion and it disappears what do you think will happen with the 700 billion?
http://www.gregpalast.com/elliot-spitzer-gets-nailed/

#17 Bush has already sidestepped congress and gave $680 Billion of OUR money to wall street criminals..
680 billion Plus 700 billion Equals FUCK!! Add in the TRILLIONS we already have in Debt before all this shit and it's Double FUCK!FUCK!
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/09/29/bush-sidesteps-congress-630-billion-to-be-pumped-into-economy-despite-house-bailout-rejection/
Bush has ignored congress before concerning large sums for his cronies.What makes you think he won't do it AGAIN.

#18 This bailout will be at least $700 billion in new debt on top of the existing $9.8 trillion national debt.That 700 billion will double the budget deficit overnight. There will be more and more bailouts until this criminal pyramid scheme collapses.
Looks like it already has started more bailouts bush went over congress and bailed out at the tune of 680 billion now this 700 billion is ANOTHER bailout on top of all the other bailouts...

#19 This has opened the door for McCain and right-wing House Republicans to posture as opponents of Wall Street and identify themselves with massive popular opposition to the bailout. The faction of House Republicans who have denounced the measure represents right-wing libertarian elements within the party who identify social spending and government intervention in the capitalist “free market” with what they consider the ultimate evil—socialism.
http://vtindymedia.org/newswire/display/388/index.php


#20 Taxpayer money in tends to disappear without a trace.12 billion went poof in Iraq..
Between April 2003 and June 2004, $12 billion in U.S. currency--much of it belonging to the Iraqi people--was shipped from the Federal Reserve to Baghdad, where it was dispensed by the Coalition Provisional Authority. Some of the cash went to pay for projects and keep ministries afloat, but, incredibly, at least $9 billion has gone missing, unaccounted for, in a frenzy of mismanagement and greed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/08/usa.iraq1
http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/503538

#21 WRONG PRIORITIES!!
Isn't it strange this government claims it simply cannot afford universal health care or effective poverty reduction or to fund any number of programs that would improve the lives of poor and middle class people can overnight find billions of dollars to save the greedy pigs who ran these Wall Street scams? Why do they waste so much on so FEW who already HAVE so much? WRONG PRIORITIES.

#22 We will face financial hardships either way.Bailout or no bailout. Because Debt is not real wealth,even when a smooth talking con man tries to tell you it IS.A mortgage is a debt until it is paid off you do not OWN the house until it is paid off.And if you do not pay property tax after you have paid off the banks you can still lose your house. WHO owns it really?
The top 1 percent wealthy that own around 80-90% of EVERYTHING.
The 1 per centers extorting OUR government right now! And causing wall street to shake,if they don't get their way NOW.The top one per centers are having Temper tantrums because they can't get what they want,basically which is to be financial dictators.And Abuse the people financially in any way they want to..

#23 The Ownership society. The right wing believe in the Divine Right of Kings.It is a core belief of Conservatism. The right wing tyrants wants full spectrum domination of we the people.The PNAC spells it all out,folks..The bullies want a feudal/theocratic state. They will do ANYTHING to get what they want like petulant children. A society made of Masters and servants,and no one else. Made of owners(Lords) and Peons totally dependent upon fawning and pleasing these land owning bullies for their existence and they will be by their own needs forced to obey the massah of the manor..or else.
Find out what conservatism really is.
http://www.unknownnews.org/060502a-Panther.html

[sniffa]

1. There's something fuzzy about all this

:shrug:

[undergroundpanther]

2. fuzzy and predatory

it's like warm fuzzy distraction to the uncertainty and anxiety people feel about unknowns.. But it will bite and hurt us.

To use an analogy it is like giving a rabid puppy to someone , it looks harmless enough, it does give that person a distraction from anxiety,something to instill hope,but it looks a little strange though..than..chomp.

By the time this scam bites us all badly in the ass,we might as well realize the chains these over- wealthy megalomaniacs monsters have carefully crafted and concealed and lied about and put lipstick on to keep us clueless for decades will be put around our necks,as the curtain of democracy will be swept aside to reveal the fascist machinery that was pulling our strings behind it.I sense by than escaping the domination and dependency upon this bad bunch of tyrants and their 'systems' will be nearly impossible with the horrible weapons and crowd control devices they have at the ready to crush any revolt.We can only hope the world that is sick of the stupidity of the red states and religious fuck ups will come to our aid and remove the heads of this rogue nation.
I hope this doesn't sink like a stone.

[snot]

3. hey, can anyone help: i saw something w/in last few days re- the uptick rule --

might have been an OP or might have been a reply, but it did a good job explaining what the uptick rule was AND how some players might be exploiting its elimination to deliberately drive prices DOWN so as to gain through shorting. Been searching for it without luck; can anyone help?

[crickets]

5. This excellent post from McCamy Taylor

explains the uptick rule, the effects of its elimination, and some of the subsequent corporate shenanigans:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4138042

It may not be the post you were thinking of, but I hope it helps.

[snot]

7. Hey, that was it, thanks!!

[Citizen Kang]

4. Someone is holding a gun to our head

And the M$M won't tell us who it is. They are just there to rally public support for this fraud and misinform the public.

I wrote about this on DU, it got two responses.

I am ashamed that my party has sided with the Bush Crime Syndicate yet again. This country is hopeless.

[crickets]

6. You're channeling my rant notes.

I hadn't managed to pull my two pages of anti-bailout thoughts together to coherence, hee. You beat me to it, touching on almost every single point and even adding a couple I missed. Well done.

[Desertrose]

8. Too late to R but I can kick this.

Good post undergroundpanther.You make/bring up some good points.



I want to know why the big rush...I mean really?