Dealership Disaster

[joeunderdog]

Here's the short version of a very long car dealership story...

My wife and I went in to buy a Prius in April and were persuaded bythe salesman to take the car for an extended test drive for a couple days. This was our 4th time in 4 years at that dealership trying to buy a car and we had closed 2 deals with them. The salesman was a real good guy. When we brought the car back, we got an offer from the General Manager of the dealership written on one of the company scratch sheets. As we always do, we said we’d think about it and get back to them after the weekend. Then the price of gas went up about 40-50c in an instant and the dealership was flooded with Prius buyers. When we called back, they were avoiding our calls, stalling, being evasive about the negotiation. After weeks of delays, they finally told us the deal was off the table, essentially blaming us for dragging our feet. We protested and protested. Finally we agreed to a lesser deal after my wife exchanged hard numbers on the phone with the dealership GM. She then gave updated personal information to the salesman as he wrote up the agreement and everything looked all set. But the fax of the agreement never came, and we couldn’t get a return call to find out why. When we finally able to corner the salesman, he said that the GM refused to sign the agreement that he himself had made! The salesman was beside himself.

I called the GM. He basically said “too bad.” I wrote to Toyota. They called me back, were pleasant and said they’d look into it. I was called by a Customer Relations person from the dealership who had heard from Corporate. She tried to help, but like Corporate, concluded that the GM has the ultimate authority at a dealership and could not directly intervene at a local dealership. I stated that while it is up to the GM to make deals, it is not within his authority to break deals, according to the laws that businesses must adhere to in this state. He had broken a clear, oral contract. “It’s only the signed offer sheet that counts,” I was told. I then pointed out that those contracts are merely more provable and not more valid than oral agreements, and that these business practices were illegal, deceptive practices as described by the Attorney General’s Office. Both Corporate and the CR person seemed to agree with these points after I explained them in this way. I then went on to say that we would likely win an AG complaint if we filed one, given that the salesman was sympathetic to us. Additionally, my wife, who was instrumental in this process, happens to be an attorney of high ethical standards who makes a living out of understanding the details of negotiations.

Instead of filing, however, we looked up then name of the (absentee) owner of the dealership and sent him a certified letter. The very moment I received my return receipt, the phone was ringing off the hook with the dealership “wanting to make us happy.” We told them that we would only accept the original deal, given all we’d been through. In the next few months, we got offered every color car we didn’t want until finally a silver one came in with the right option pkg. We insisted on a fax of the agreement before coming in. And wouldn’t you know, that bastard wrote up the deal for $1600 more than agreed on! The nerve! We hit the roof. We told them we wanted them to fix it N-O-W, or we were moving on.

They finally cried uncle. Yesterday, we got the Prius, an ’09 with a few extra options on it, for the price of the less expensive ’08. In the meantime, my trade had depreciated, so it made the deal that much better. Essentially, we paid $2K less than sticker. Wasn’t worth the hassle, but the end sure was better than the process. Ultimately, the GM was just too determined to win this (as he always does, I’m sure) but it ended up costing him more. I believe the owner understood that it would cost him more to defend an AG complaint—even if he won--than to cut the deal he had no personal stake in. More important, perhaps, is that companies are justifiably afraid of public complaints that stay on consumer websites and dissuade potential customers from doing business. An AG complaint remains a matter of public record. A lot of people threaten filing, but it’s important to let them know you mean business. We did so by writing the owner and keeping records of our good faith efforts to resolve the matter in other ways.

At least my horror story had a happy ending. Let’s hear some of those other dealership disasters. I know they’re out there…

[orwell]

1. Enjoy the Prius! n/t

[AllieB]

2. Sounds like a Herb Chambers nightmare.

We bought our Prius at Acton Toyota. Do the '09s come with heated seats? That's the only thing I miss in the winter.

[flyingfysh]

3. Congratulations! You'll love your Prius

Everyone knows about Prius mileage, but what most people don't know is: the car is ultra-reliable.

I have driven my 2006 Prius over 60000 miles (I have a long commute to work), and the *only* things that have gone wrong are one headlight and one taillight. That's it! I have only done routine scheduled maintenance.

[napi21]

4. Good for you! Congrats! Far too many peple are so easily intimidated,

they back off way too soon. I think that's why the GM'S are like they are...they know it almost always works!

Every time we've ever bought a car, as soon as we start talking price, my husband stands up, says "That's HER department, and she embarrasses me!" He then walks out and lets it up to me. Personally, I don't care. In a way, I think it helps my effort because it puts my intimidation skills on top of the deck.

[kristopher]

5. Personally I think your actions are reprehensible.

Personally I think your actions are reprehensible. You were offered a deal under prevailing market conditions, not a never ending offer. While there MAY be a legal basis for your claim, your actual problem is one of regret that you didn't take advantage of the opportunity to buy when conditions favored you. Instead of accepting the consequences of YOUR decision to pass on the deal at that time, you want to pick the dealer's pocket and manipulate them to your cheap-assed advantage.

Way to go, I know you are proud of screwing them.

[joeunderdog]

7. A bit short on the facts here.

While it is the industry standard, making and breaking agreements is illegal. In a call with the GM, my wife agreed--did not refuse and regret--a deal with specific HARD numbers which was then sent to the salesman *who confirmed this* to be written up. The GM, not me or my wife, then had remorse and backed out. Then he lied about it. Why lie if your business practices are above board?

We didn't shake anyone down on this. The salesman himself told us that the other sales managers agreed with us that the deal should have been honored. He felt betrayed by his boss, too.

Who's actions are reprehensible?

ps--The heart of the matter is that we DO (not may) have a legal basis here. My wife worked for the AG's office early in her career. The majority of the complaints she handled were about--you guessed it--the sales and repair of automobiles.

[kristopher]

8. You are full of it.

Your wife worked for the AGs office, eh? Have you ever heard of the logical fallacy of "false appeal to authority"?

There are a lot of variables that go into making a contract, including YOUR actions related to accepting the deal. YOU DID NOT ACCEPT THE DEAL THEREFORE THERE WAS NO CONTRACT. "I'll think about it" is not an acceptance of the contract. That is just one wrinkle in your tale, here is another altogether more serious one. You are falsely relating the events that occurred. At no point have gas prices jumped anywhere near the amount you indicate over the period of a weekend. Over a period of a WEEK in mid september (10th-17th) the price increased about $0.20.
So either you sat on the negotiation for a much longer period than you are letting on and then went back or you are exaggerating the gas price increase and consequently, relaying false information about the motives involved for the dealer.

As to the salesman agreeing with you: WOW what a surprise. He is dependent on commissions from individual sales to feed his family, what do you expect him to say?

to answer your question: Yours are.

[NashVegas]

9. Nevermind

I'm talking September, too.

[joeunderdog]

13. Let me guess...

you sell cars. What's with the hostility? If your biggest point is the bounce in gas prices during the last week in April/1st week of May, then you are splitting hairs--it was at leaset a quarter around here.

In English again, WE ACCEPTED A DEAL WITH HARD NUMBERS. PERIOD. So, by your logic, there WAS a contract. If you read the OP, you will see that we AGREED to a lesser deal than the original offer. At what point is a deal a deal?

Enough with your attacks--I'm not "cheap-assed" or dishonest in any way. You are perpetuating the myths of manipulative car salesmen.

:wtf:

[datasuspect]

18. was it a buyer's order?

or did you go through the F&I process and have the vehicle registered in your name? did the bank/lender purchase the deal?

either party can walk out during the negotiation phases.

it sounds like you were shopping, jerked off someone else's time, had way too much time of your own, and generally became a nuisance.

[Xithras]

64. Legally, the OP is right and you are wrong.

In most states, a verbal agreement is just as legally enforceable as a written one. The manager could have avoided all of this by simply appending a "...but this offer is only good today" to his quoted price. A failure to accept within the quoted timeframe would have nullified the verbal contract and freed the dealership of any responsibility. I should point out here that practically every dealership I've ever visited (and I've purchased six new vehicles over the course of my life) does exactly that, for this very reason. When the OP decided to walk and said they wanted to "think about it", the PROPER response from the dealership should have been to illustrate that point diplomatically (i.e.: "Well sir, prices probably won't change between now and Monday, but that price is only guaranteed today.")

If a verbal purchase contract is made and no termination clause or date is given, the onus falls onto the dealership to prove that the delay in completing the contract was "unreasonable", and that the dealership had no practical reason to expect it to be concluded. In most courts, you're probably looking at a minimum of several weeks for that argument to gain any weight.

Any GM making open-ended verbal purchase contracts with potential buyers should be fired, because they obviously don't know how to do their job.

By the way, just to clarify whether or not this is a contract: To qualify as a contract, two requirements must be met. An offer must be made, and an acceptance of that offer must occur. You are assuming that acceptance is the same as a purchase, but you'd be wrong in that. If I am looking at a car and you offer it to me for $25,000, I can ACCEPT your price without accepting purchase. We have a valid verbal contract (offer made and accepted) for the transaction price of the vehicle, even though we have not yet concluded a sales contract for the actual transfer of the vehicle. I may not get the actual vehicle if I sue you for later changing your mind, but your losses incurred in defending the case will almost certainly exceed any additional profits you may have gained by jacking up the price. The moral? ALL CONTRACTS MUST HAVE ESCAPE CLAUSES.

My mother (a practicing attorney for many decades) once argued a case similar to this. Two neighbors owned land abutting each other, but one of the lots had no road access. The neighbor without road access could only reach his property using a small unimproved dirt easement along the other landowners property. The roadless owner wanted to improve his property, so both landowners came to an agreement wherein the roadside owner would subdivide his 40 acre lot to create a second narrow strip of property along one edge. That property would then be sold to the roadless owner for a fixed price so he could build a proper driveway.

Somewhere along the line, the landowner along the road decided to subdivide his 100+ acre property into even more lots to resell and make a profit (he kept half, but generated a bunch of smaller 2 acre "estate" lots for sale to others). Over a year later, after the property subdivision was done and a developer was selected for the subdivided lots, he went back to the roadless landowner and demanded a new price for the strip of land that was substantially higher than the original (IIRC, it was originally offered for around $10k, but ended up asking for almost $80k). The roadside landowner claimed that his newly created "estate lots" improved the value of the surrounding land, justifying the new price.

A judge eventually disagreed. It was found that the two landowners had a verbal contract for the subdivision and exchange of the land EVEN THOUGH NO SALES CONTRACT WAS CREATED (they couldn't create one at the time because the lot didn't exist yet). Because no escape clause was included in their contract, and because the subdivision process had been proceeding during the interim year (which lead the roadless landowner to believe that the terms of their verbal contract were proceeding normally), the judge found it valid and ordered the landowner to abide by the original terms. The generous attorneys fees charged to the original landowner also bought my mom a new car that year (with the profits he saw from the estate lot subdivision, I doubt he even noticed the loss).

ALWAYS HAVE AN ESCAPE CLAUSE.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

67. You are wrong.

"I'll have to think about it" is the VERY DEFINITION of a lack of "meeting of the minds" or lack of acceptance.

edit to add:
you even illustrate my point with this: "A failure to accept within the quoted timeframe"

[Xithras]

68. Nope. Depends on what they were "thinking" about.

Here's where it get sticky.

You say: I'll sell you this car for $25,000.
I say: That price is acceptable, but I need to think for a day about whether I want to buy a car at all.

We now have a verbal agreement for the sales price, but not the transfer. The price is binding, but the sale isn't. If you disagree with that, you're lawyers simply aren't as good as mine. As a business owner I keep an attorney on retainer and have been involved in more than a few contract disputes. In almost all cases, the suits boil down to the fine nuances of the words used. My attorney could certainly win a case based on these facts.

Which is why smart sellers say: I'll sell you this car today for $25,000.

Now that I've explained that, let me show you where you're right.

You say: I'll sell you this car for $25,000
I say: I dunno, I'll have to think about it.

No contract has been made. You have offered a price, but I have failed to accept it in any form. The catch? How are you going to prove in court that I said the SECOND thing, and not the FIRST.

Again, it's all about having the escape clause. Debate over whether the contract was accepted becomes moot if the contract establishes a clear point of termination.

[tammywammy]

69. In Texas a "Buyer's Order" is non-binding

It maybe different in your state, but here it's definitely non-binding.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

71. You can't have a contract without consideration............

You can't agree to give me $25,000 for some non-existent purchase that you haven't agreed to make. The fact that YOU admit YOU didn't know if YOU intend to even BUY a car speaks to your lack of meeting of the minds or acceptance of the dealers consideration for YOUR money. "I have to think about IT"..........."it" being delivery of the vehicle ......means there is no contract.

"Thanks, I'll be back next week".......could be a verbal contract. "I don't know if I want to buy a car".... means no deal.

That's the academic argument.

My real world experience of 15 years in the business (8 in F&I and 7 in wholesale lending to dealers) answering countless AG complaints that NEVER went anywhere tells me this whole deal is mental masturbation as it pertains to ANY court.........and/or the attorney general threat cited by the OP.

If you have an attorney that would take this abortion of a case to court on your dime I suggest you fire him/her 'cause they aren't doing you ANY favors except racking up billable hours.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

73. P.S. i hope i don't come across too strong - I enjoy the discussion

:)

[Toucano]

79. No meeting of the minds here.

The dealer and the buyer had totally different ideas and intentions about the offer.

The buyer thought the offer was open ended, the dealer thought the negotiation was over when the offer wasn't accepted.

No verbal contract here.

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. !!!

:thumbsup: :applause: :thumbsup:

[trof]

19. I agree. We bought a Prius last November.

We had discussed it for a few months.
I drove it about 5 miles.
My wife drove it around the parking lot.
The dealer offered what I thought was a fair price for the car and our trade.
We bought it.

My main concern was how the Prius would work with my 6'2"/235 frame.
It works just fine.

I'm pretty sure we couldn't get one now for the same price we paid back then.

[King Coal]

25. God, I swear, there always has to be a contrary fuddy-duddy.

ON EDIT: I don't mean the OP!

[Cronus Protagonist]

58. The OP is a grinder

Having worked on the other side, I know the type well. They try to get everything at a better price than anyone else, they will haggle over a $20 floor mat for an hour or more and when they eventually, grudgingly, take their car, they always feel that they left a nickel on the table or worry that they dropped a dollar on the floor of the dealership and spend the life of the car never very happy with it. I guarantee the salesman made between $75 and $150 on that car (minimum commmission) and he's finally glad to see the back of them.

[ogneopasno]

6. But...then you ended up with a Prius!

Had to say it; I can't stand them.

[Occulus]

10. I recently had a similar experience with a moving company

I was in a bind and the company agreed to squeeze me in over Labor Day weekend. Their price was $60 to move ome boxes (and only boxes) full of "stuff" from my old place to the new; boxes that wouldn't fit into my car.

Lo and behold, a friend came through for me and let me use his truck, so I called and canceled their appointment before they ever showed up.

About a week later, I got a call from the moving company telling me that they were going to charge $120 to my credit card- a cancellation fee. Now, when I called them, I needed their help the very next day; when they called me about the cancellation fee, I found out from them- for the first time- that there was a fee for canceling less than 48 hours in advance.

I was never told about this. I didn't initially speak to the person who called me the second time; I spoke to his wife. She never mentioned the cancellation fee, and myself and my roommate spoke to her at length about them getting my move squeezed in.

I told the man that, if he charged my card for so much as a penny extra, I would put the charges in dispute, as we were never told about this fee. Given that there was less than 24 hours between calling them and the appointment, had I known about the fee, I would never have asked them in the first place, as there was a chance- which came through- that a friend could help me out instead.

"The next time you need help moving, call Two Men & a Truck instead of us." Those were his words, I kid you not. I didn't think to tell him at the time, but they were the ones I called first- I settled on his company.

If you're going to move to the SW Michigan area, or if you live here already and are moving, don't use Crosstown Movers. They will try to give you the shaft, and cut their own nose off their face to spite you if there's a problem.

Unlike newspapers and many other people, where businesses are concerned, I make it a personal requirement to point fingers and name names if they screw me over, specifically to cost them future business.

[kristopher]

11. I love it.

You have a dire need.

You call a business and beg them to work around their needs and their other customer's needs and place YOUR needs first.

You then cancel on the day you have asked for services.

And you think that either:

the business is unreasonable to not want to eat the costs of the labor they hired for the day; or

The labor they hired for the day is unreasonable for wanting to get paid for blocking out that day to do your bidding.

Have I missed something?

[Indenturedebtor]

14. I'm with you. n/t

[liberalhistorian]

34. Yeah, you're missing something. How about the fact

that they never once mentioned a cancellation fee, especially one double the price of the original charge? They are ALWAYS supposed to let you know of all terms, including cancellation fees. Businesses nowadays are more and more likely to nickel and dime you to death with their fees and "extra" charges every single chance they get, without even telling you about them in the first place. Too many businesses don't know the meaning of customer service anymore and customers are considered nuisances instead of their very lifeblood.

[Indenturedebtor]

12. I sold cars for three years. Most of my dealership disasters involve customers making me work for

60 hours and then getting paid 150 dollars. Normally throughout that process those customers were insulting and abrasive, condescending, etc. Those same customers were apt to come into the dealership every other month with some request for free stuff. They would show up unannounced and harass me on busy days. I had a lot of customers call me on my one day off every week (Sunday), or late at night.

I'm sure that the dealership said to you at some point "this deal is good for x amount of time." There's a reason for that: time is money in two ways. First if they don't sell they dont eat. They likely could have sold 3 cars in the time it took to deal with you. Secondly market conditions change. While you're dragging your feet their incentives, bonuses, market values.. everything changes.

I understand where you're coming from but you need to realise that there are two sides to every story. Customers make and break oral contracts every day in every dealership across the country. The reason why the owner finally caved for you is that he will eat no matter what deal the dealership takes. I'm sure that salesman had quite a bit harder time paying his bills because of your buying habits. A lot of times no deal is better than any deal.

[alarimer]

22. Customers are abrasive because car salesman SUCK.

The whole process sucks and they rip you off every single time.

[Indenturedebtor]

23. I wish you were right about ripping people off every time. Not all customers are abrasive

But the ones that are we did everything we could to fuck them. No offense but unless you've sold cars for a few months you know next to nothing about how it really works.

[liberalhistorian]

33. Jesus Christ, and you wonder just WHY

people can be difficult when dealing with car salesmen? Newsflash. We're not buying a blanket or plastic doodad or something like that. We are making a MAJOR purchase that will affect our financial and work lives for years. So if people seem just a tad bit edgier when buying a car, maybe, just maybe, that's why.

And boo-hoo on "not knowing what it's like." No one forced you to do it and if a dealership doesn't want to deal with people except only the way THEY want to, then they shouldn't have to worry about that for too long 'cause they ain't gonna be in business for too long.

[Indenturedebtor]

36. Not true, there are plenty of people who are reasonable when buying cars

I can't tell you how many people we kicked out of the dealerships I worked at. Hell I probably broomed every 5th customer. And before you ask I was reasonably successful at selling cars. Most of the money is made on the service end of a new car dealership... that's something that most buyers don't understand.

"Jesus Christ, and you wonder just WHY
Posted by liberalhistorian
people can be difficult when dealing with car salesmen? Newsflash. We're not buying a blanket or plastic doodad or something like that. We are making a MAJOR purchase that will affect our financial and work lives for years. So if people seem just a tad bit edgier when buying a car, maybe, just maybe, that's why."

And the folks at the dealership need to make a profit that will pay their bills. You see, both sides are invested. It's not a hobby.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

47. "broomed"

This thread is bringing back bad old memories...... :)

Brooming customers, phony attorney general complaints, whinny ass customers bitching because the dealer didn't honor their imaginary one sided "legally binding" contract.

My favorite was when customers wanted to "think" over the weekend about a particular car and them scream bloody murder on Monday after some other customer took delivery the same vehicle.


The OP doesn't realize it, but the moral of this story is to get to the owner because they don't like to deal with any bullshit. My owner used to say "best way to get even with a jag-off is sell 'em a car." The legal threats had nothing to do with it - and 'attorney general' complaints were, for the most part, not worth the paper they were written on.

[Indenturedebtor]

50. Yeah lol my favorite was the "24 hour right of return" myth

I usually started out nice with those but finally ended up saying that I would be happy to see if my manager would accept a couple grand to pay for all of the time and resources that had been put into selling them a car and extra depreciation. We always offered to move them into another out of our 3,000 car inventory if they were unhappy but it was always "Wahh you do what I say, I'm the customer!" Uh... no. Business takes two parties.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

74. LOL. Our customers though they had "72 hours".............

I would ask them if they thought we were trying to put Budget Rent-a-Car out of business by letting people drive 3 days for free.

[King Coal]

27. Two wrongs (such as breaking oral contracts) don't make a right.

[liberalhistorian]

32. Ya know, if there's one thing I can't stand it's

salespeople complaining about how "hard" they had to work for a customer and how "little" they then got paid for it. Specifically, and especially, car salespeople, who are some of the worst, sneakiest salespeople I've ever had to deal with. If you don't like dealing with people and customers and actually having to be honest and treating them right, and if you don't want their business, then find some other job. Period. It appears that customers are more and more considered nuisances anymore, instead of the very source of money that keeps you in business in the first place.

[Indenturedebtor]

38. It depends on the customer. Many customers think that anything they do is ok

People forget that just because they might potentially spend money that doesn't mean that the business or the people who operate it should have to put up with whatever crap the customer wants to fling at them.

Especially in situations where you're not paying for the time directly. There are dealerships where there is no negotiation. Why not just go there and buy a car? Oh that's right... because you're hoping to be sneaky, intimidating, manipulative, etc in order to hopefully screw the dealership. :eyes:

Some customers are nuisances and aren't worth the money. Can I insult you, call you all hours of the day, make you walk 5 miles, drive for two hours, make you call me 20 times, show up 2 hours late for an appointment, ask you to work till 3 in the morning on a holiday for 8 dollars an hour? Would you do that? That's what many buyers want. Oh but the customer is always right! Hah.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

63. There's two sides to that coin.......

Unfortunately, the manufacturers, the dealer owners AND the customers treat the transaction like a commodity transaction and then wonder why they get piss poor service from the sales staff.

[tammywammy]

61. I always like hearing customers that don't believe the invoice when shown

:eyes:

[catnhatnh]

75. You worked 60 hours and were paid $150.00???

Do you feel you are actually representing your job fairly? Because most car sales positions are based on a basic draw plus commision. If that were not the case, of course, you would have received less than minimum wage, a federal violation and at $2.50 an hour a labor lawyer would gladly jump in

Or are you actually saying that in spite of a much higher base pay and commission that occasionally, during spare time, you spend spare time with hard negociators and eventually close a deal with them even though they are knowledgeable and reduce your profit?

Because in the first case you would be a fool, and in the second a whiner.

The third case is that you are not telling the truth.

[datasuspect]

15. sales orders/purchase agreements are not binding.

anyone can walk out of a car deal up to the point that a lender purchases the "paper."

[Indenturedebtor]

24. Varies by state, but here in AZ so long as they sign with F&I and F&I gets the terms agreed on

from the bank it's binding.

This whole discussion is just like people explaining why they don't tip waiters. Only people who are like that are folks that have never waited tables.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

29. The bank doesn't even have to agree to the deal........

The dealer is the lender and sells the "paper" AFTER the car is delivered. The contracts contain an escape clause for the dealer if he can't secure a buyer for the paper but that is a one sided escape clause favoring the dealer. (I spent 8 years in F&I)

[Indenturedebtor]

30. But if the rate goes up the buyer is not obligated to sign at a higher rate... or if more money down

Or longer term. The deal is for the deal that is agreed to.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

37. You are correct................

......that does serve as a de-facto escape clause for the buyer if and only IF the dealer is forced to change the terms of the finance agreement. My point is, buyers don't get to cancel the agreement before the loan is purchased because the dealer can, and sometimes does, act as the ultimate end lender.

We were a pretty aggressive dealership in that we put everything on the street before we had bank approval. My job was to use my best judgment to figure which bank would buy a deal and structure it accordingly. Once in a while we/I would make a mistake - I usually tried to protect myself by writing the deal at a worse case scenario and re-write the customer on better terms once the deal was worked out. On the occasion where I was caught with my pants down, I had the rather unpleasant task of calling the buyer back in. Nine times out of ten, the buyer knew there was a potential problem (it helped to wait for the buyer to receive the credit denials from the lender(s) in the mail) and would work with us rather than give the car back.

I've known of some unscrupulous dealers that would write people on terms they had no way of honoring with the hope the buyer would fall in love and/or be too embarrassed to give the car back once they showed the neighbors their new purchase.

[Indenturedebtor]

40. Yeah I worked for a store that rolled everything for a few months

I couldn't take it. On the other end of things there are plenty of buyers that lie on their credit apps or lie about down payments. Both behaviors are extremely shady.

[Midlodemocrat]

16. Why did you take so long to make up your mind? You test drove

the car for a 'couple of days' an then needed to 'think about it'?

Not getting that part. My last car I searched for on the 'net, drove to the dealer's, signed the paperwork and drove away with the new car.

I think your dragging your feet here is what caused this.

[joeunderdog]

20. deleted

double post

[joeunderdog]

21. We actually never asked for an extended test drive.

It's just that the salesman had known us from other sales and frankly was in no hurry on the process. Prius sales were only OK at the time, and we were repeat customers, so he wanted us to get a feel for it even though I already told him I liked it. We took it from Tuesday to Friday, got their initial offer Friday and said we would call them back after the weekend (we were attending the Nikon School both days.) We never make split second decisions. We actually called on the way back on Sunday. They had sold 6 Priuses that weekend according to the salesman, so the GM pulled the offer. And while I agree that these offers don't last forever, they gave no indication that Sunday was too long.

I accept your point about customers spending dealerships' time, but I thought that we were being reasonable.

[Toucano]

26. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. How is that a "split second decision"?

It doesn't matter whether you asked for the extended test drive or not. You took the benefit of it.

I don't think your actions are "reprehensible", but I think you brought this "disaster" on yourself.

I don't understand how you can even categorize it as a disaster when you came out smelling like a rose.

Remember:

"He who hesitates is lost."

"Opportunity is not a lengthy visitor."

"Time stands still for no man."

[Last Stand]

35. I believe he said he got his initial offer on Friday.

Are you in the habit of taking the first offer from the first dealership you visit? Seems like some posters here are trying to say that the buyer the problems were his fault for not biting on the initial offer. That kind of negotiating is foolish and will likely cost you alot of money. Most car dealerships will not give your their bottom line offer til the third round. You can't blame them for that. And you can't blame a customer for not jumping right in.

I would say that he who doesn't hesitate and make careful decisions about major financial transactions loses. That can lead to personal ruin and is essentially at the root of our current financial crisis on a larger scale.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

39. You are correct but................

...............most buyers don't threaten to sue, fabricate imaginary binding contracts, and make some poor schlep salesman's life miserable because they snoozed while the market changed.

[Toucano]

78. There was ample time for the buyer to determine

1. If he wanted the car.
2. What he thought was a fair price.

The buyer could easily have researched other dealers prices while he had the car for THREE DAYS and entered negotiation knowing HIS bottom line price. The buyer should be smart and well-informed BEFORE entering the negotiation.

Walking out of a negotiation saying, "Let me think about it," is not the ordinary way of negotiating. If there's a deal on the table and you walk out, you can assume the deal is withdrawn. Nothing about and offer to sell you something is binding or a "verbal contract".

I don't think the dealer did anything untoward in this. The buyer badgered and threatened until he got what he wanted, and that's one way to go about it.

[SoCalDem]

28. Wow.. we have bought many cars and never had problems..

We went to a lot, found a car, and drove it home..every time :)

[donco6]

41. Me too. And got a good deal.

The internets are my friend.

[Indenturedebtor]

43. I like internet buyers. They know what they want and you don't make almost any money on em

But you end up making about 15 bucks an hour and having a pleasant interaction most of the time.

[SoCalDem]

44. Research online..and show up with cash.. You can always get a good deal

:)

[Indenturedebtor]

51. You're better off financing and paying off quickly

While with new car dealerships you 99% of the time will get the same or better rate as walking into a bank, the dealership will factor in their cut of your interest payments into their bottom line. NEVER pay with cash.

Just pay the loan off in 2 months.

[SoCalDem]

53. We've done it both ways.. we still prefer cash..

We just make sure they give us the "perks" that would have gone with the deal, had we financed.. No one has ever turned down a sizeable stack of benjamins yet:)

The only hassle is the "large cash transaction" form....but we can easily prove that the money existed before we showed up at the dealership :)

[Indenturedebtor]

55. Even beyond the perks it's more negotiating power

If the dealership gets 2 percentage points from the bank that can be a couple more grand for their bottom line. They are then more apt to agree to a redline deal on the front end.

[Midlodemocrat]

80. Yup. Exactly what I did. I knew the exact van I wanted

and brought a check in the amount that I was willing to pay.

It wasn't painful at all.

[Vinca]

31. Until we started buying Toyotas, every car we had was a disaster.

There was the brand new Pontiac that stalled about a half mile from the dealership and wouldn't start again. That turned out to be a pattern, so we traded it in for a new, early model, lightweight Subaru that would spin you around on ice so fast it was a miracle no serious injuries were ever involved. That was traded rather quickly for the new Ford pickup. It rattled from front to back and on inspection was found to have almost no bolts on the body tightened. I bought a new VW Rabbit once and the first week the gear shift lever disengaged on its own and flopped in the breeze and the car had to be towed. I think that's when we started buying Toyotas and we've never had a problem. Some we've kept in excess of 150,000 miles.

[Indenturedebtor]

42. Pontiacs are my "never ever buy" brand

I know some who've had success with them but I've seen too many Pontiacs with 12,000 miles on em and 50 problems.

Mazdas are really reliable as well, and Nissans are quite good. A lot of Fords will hold up really well and are more affordable than Toyotas. I'm generally just not a big fan of GM products.

[Diclotican]

57. Vinca

Vinca

I am not sure how long 150.000 miles are, compared to KMs.. But my old Toyota Corolla 1.6 16v have been used for 323.000km now, and still kicking pretty good.. Yes the old lady is old, rusty, but have still a engine and the rest of a body of a clean, mean machine, who are given beating to both BMW and AUDI.. Not on the Highway maybe, but on the ordinary roads.. The old lady are beating BMW and Audi every time..

But I know my old lady is on the last leg.. 22 year old, rusty, and in dire need of a real body work overhaul I know it is soon time to let her rest.. But I Cherish every minute I have had her.. A lovely lady she have been, and have been a nice car to have.. Cheap om petrol. Cheap when needed work on her.. And the best is, if anything broke down, it is always a spare some where...

I would miss here, but I know it is time to let her rest.. January would be the moth I would give here up to scrap.. But in the meantime. I would love here, and do my best to keep her together.. But I do would miss her, when she is gone... :cry:

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[Vinca]

59. We would have kept the Toyota with the 150,000 miles on it, but it

got so rusty it wouldn't pass inspection. The one we bought last year is treated somehow so it doesn't rust, so maybe it'll be good for more than 150,000. Wow - 22 years for a car is amazing!

[Diclotican]

65. Vinca

Vinca

Yes it is, pretty amazing. And if it was not for the ***** rust, I would say the old lady would be kicking around for another 10 year, at least of the paste she are in today..But I know she would never pas the inspection. SO it is better to do the honorable thing.. I would always have the memory;) The engine alone would survive the rest of the car by years.. It is tight, and very impressive when driven hard.. I would really miss the handling she can do with ease.. One time I was traveling over Dovre to Trondheim (dovre is a montainrange, who are pretty steep) on the way down to the other side (Trondheim side) a BMW was working hard to get past my, flushing his light and so on.. I got little pissed off by it, and decided to se if he wanted to play along.. My little car outrun the big BMW down the slopes right to the bottom, where a better road was coming.. Then the BMW was past my by seconds.. But for a hour and a half, my little car was really playing with the larger, heavier, and faster car... Very funny, and pretty impressive.. The other gay, was not exactly fearless. And I know the road. And I do know how the car was handling the road:).. I love it.. And I have to say, my next car would very possible be an Toyota too.. Even that I want a newer one..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[apocalypsehow]

45. I'm sure our UAW DU'ers thank you.

:thumbsdown:

[ogneopasno]

46. Trashing American cars in 3...2...1...

I'm not sure when "Buy American" became something to be embarrassed about or contemptuous of.

[apocalypsehow]

48. Me either - my Uncle worked for GM for years and while they have had some problems at times,

they still put out a very high quality product. Ditto Ford & Chrysler. I wouldn't buy a vehicle that didn't have the UAW label.

[ogneopasno]

49. I wouldn't either.

We just got a Ford Focus and are pulling down 36-40 mpgs. AND it was put together by UAW members. Some "progressives" really love to put down American cars, and it chaps my ass.

[Indenturedebtor]

54. Some American cars are pieces of shit. And a lot of "foreign" cars are built here

You actually have to look at the "Percentage parts content". You can buy Nissans that are more American than GMs.

[ogneopasno]

56. Thanks for the tip.

Being an informed consumer who looks for the union label, I know how to find what I'm looking for.

[Romulox]

84. Almost no Japanese cars are "built" here; several are ASSEMBLED here, though.

"You actually have to look at the "Percentage parts content". "

Not exactly; the Federal Trade Commission defines "Made in the USA", and very few Japanese models qualify, save for the vehicles made with joint ventures with the Big 3.

If Hondas could legally advertise themselves as "Made in the USA", they would.

[Orsino]

62. I bought three Japanese hybrids a few years ago.

Lo and behold, American companies are finally getting off their asses to offer them. I would have loved to have bought American, but American wasn't ready.

They're almost ready now, and for that (in small part) you can thank Americans who didn't buy American, who led instead of following.

[apocalypsehow]

66. I understand this puts a lot of folks in a bind, as far as being socially responsible.

Do I support the Union label or do I support the environment? Hopefully, with the Big Three starting to get in the hybrid game, this will become less of a conflict.

[Indenturedebtor]

52. Sorry I don't like GM. Like I said though I do like fords

My Mazda 6 was built nearly entirely in the US... matter of fact it's basically a Ford. My wife's Nissan was 50% built in the US.

[Raineyb]

70. Uh, I think the GM in the OP stands for General Manager.

The story's about a Toyota dealership.

Regards

[Shakespeare]

72. That's not the poster's point.

His (or her) point is that the OP bought a Toyota, not an "American" car (hard to say just what constitutes an American car anymore).

[Romulox]

83. Psssst. The Prius is not an "American car" no matter how you slice it. nt

[Shakespeare]

87. Psssst. I wasn't suggesting that it was. n/t

[Romulox]

82. But Hank Paulson says WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER! (I guess that doesn't apply to auto workers.) nt

[tammywammy]

60. It sounds like you were doing a "Buyers Order"

And both the customer and the dealer can stop negotiations, the buyers order isn't binding.

[Contrary1]

76. Dealer Disaster...their's not mine

Not similar to your situation at all, but we had an interesting experience with a dealer a few years back.

Our daughter had a mediocre credit rating, but needed a new car. So, her dad and I went with her to look around. She found one' a brand new Toyota that she liked, and could also afford the payments on.

We co-signed on the loan, which is what we wanted to do, in order to help build up her credit score. Dealer said no problem, she qualified. So, off she went in her new car.

Three days later, they called. Slight problem. They told us that the bank said we needed our names to be at the top of the application, with our daughter's name as a co-signer. Having worked in the office of a used-car broker, I knew it was BS when the dealership told me that it would still look good on her credit.

So, I called the bank. No record of a loan request under either our names or the daughter's. They had sold her the car under false pretenses.

I told the dealer, no problem; we would be happy to bring back the car, as soon as my daughter came back from her trip, that there would probably still be less than 800 miles on it. (Ok, I lied - no trip.)

Amazingly, in three hours they were able to find financing for her, just as we had originally requested. Her name was on the loan, we were the co-signers. Better yet, it was at a lower rate.

She made her payments on time, and nine years later, she still has the car.

[dana_b]

77. I love hearing stories like this

good for you and your smart wife! Enjoy the car.

[Romulox]

81. Basic contract law: merchant's offers must be in a SIGNED WRITING to be held open

Oral contracts for sales of goods worth more than $500 ($1000 in my state) are not enforceable.

The first is a function of the Uniform Commercial Code's "Merchant's Firm Offer" provision. The second point is a result of the "Statute of Frauds" that goes back to 17th century England.

In short, the dealership was right, and you were wrong.

[workinclasszero]

85. Damn! You and your wife kick ass!

Can you come with me the next time I buy a car? :)

[LeftyFingerPop]

86. You were in the wrong.

No binding contract because there was not an acceptance.

How long should they be expected to keep the offer open?

1 day? 2 weeks? 3 years?

Just because they are a dreaded car dealership does not mean that you have the right to jerk them around.