Sense of DU on investments-A community college prof. with $50,000 TIAA-CREF stock for retirement is

[HamdenRice]

I'm just puzzled by some of the posts I'm reading, so I'm trying to get a sense of DU's feelings -- yes, feelings not analysis -- about the very idea of savings and investment.

Please feel free to -- in fact please do -- elaborate on how you feel by replying to the OP.

[dmallind]

1. OK so this one is looking clear,

How about we go to, say (and this is not me or anyone in my family) a middle management type in a co-op utility company who over 25 years has a 401K balance of $300,000? Parasite or saver?

(eventually we will reach a job and savings level where people become parasites not savers and I am as curious as the OP appraently is to find out where that shift occurs.....)

[HamdenRice]

8. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to find out

I guess I'm doing a "feelings" auction, and your scenario somewhere next!

:rofl:

[gateley]

2. Although I understand the argument that investing in the market is just

gambling, it's not that cut and dried.

Historically, the stock markets have performed well.

People were able to put money away into their 401Ks, able to defer income tax on the amount contributed.

Some businesses offered a matching plan which made it even more attractive.


I don't for a moment think that your professor is greedy or reckless for 'gambling'.

People felt the return would be the best for their investment - almost like comparing banks to choose which pays the higher interest.

These are good, hard working people, doing what they can so they can survive in their retirement years.

And I don't have a 401K.

[Frustratedlady]

4. I never felt like I was gambling or a leech when investing in a mutual fund.

I was saving toward retirement.

When I questioned the possibility of another Depression, I was told that would never happen, as safeguards had been put in place to protect the market from failing.

Then came George.

[harun]

3. Depends

If the person gives a bit to charity each year then B. If not, A.

[hack89]

6. Looking out for your family first makes you a parasite?

OK :eyes:

[kath]

23. You don't think that even people of modest means should give a bit to charity each year?

Sheesh.

Even when we were still paying off student loans and money was fairly tight, we still gave a little to charities like Doctors Without Borders and Habitat for Humanity. We've added other charities over the years, and increased the amounts. When the big tsunami hit, we dug deep and donated to CARE. They're now on our annual list.
We don't have a college fund, we drive old cars, etc. But I just wouldn't feel right if we weren't doing *something* to help the poor and hungry.

[hack89]

25. Don't put words in my mouth

the question is why failing to give to charity makes someone saving for retirement (and the kid's college, and the elderly parents) a parasite?

I don't see the connection.

[murdoch]

5. You are petit bourgeois

The world has several billion people in it.

The majority of adult people in the world have no money to investment - not as landlords, not as stock (capital) investors or employers, and for the most part, not as moneylenders (although people who get a few dollars interest on their checking accounts spreads it out).

Every dollar made on rent, profit or interest is money made as a rentier. It is unearned money, parasitism, money made off others labor. Period.

It is the real world, not some religious moral thing. My checking account has a low interest rate, but it still has one. I don't flagellate myself due to this.

The money doesn't matter. The real question is the relationship. As a stockowner, you have a relations to the means of production, a relationship to the people doing the work. They work, they create the wealth. The first few hours a day they work for themselves, they create their wages. At the end of the day, you are not paying them for their work, they are working for your profit. This is your relationship to them.

[HamdenRice]

10. I assume you don't mean "you" personally

This isn't based on me. I'm asking about a hypothetical person.

[dmallind]

20. So help me out here

What exactly is "labor" that it alone creates value. Is labor only physical work? If it's mental work too (which would include teachers, doctors and so on) what attributes of mental work that apply to seeking returns based on profit make them parisitism? Where exactly does it begin?

[DrDan]

22. This is not necessarily parasitism.

Parasitism usually infers one of a pair is rewarded at the expense of the other. Mutualism, on the other hand, both benefit. In most cases you cite, this is the case. Someone has a property and makes some money on its rental - the other benefits by obtaining a place to live - without having to buy a home of their own. Or someone loans some money at an interest - the other benefits from having the capital for their use.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. Not really a saver, since you never see your 401k deduction

and seriously, $50,000 won't even get you through a year after you retire. I switched my meager account to mostly annuities years ago, and I'm now withdrawing it over time to put it into a self-employed IRA that I can actually add to at a decent rate, now that I no longer teach.

[Indiana_Dem]

9. Here are some other scenarios:

Someone who had nothing most of their life and inherited $1 million from a parent who worked as a railroader and pipefitter for Chrysler who saved that money their entire life.


Another person who won the lottery.

parasite and leach?? Don't think so.

[CoffeeCat]

11. I'm failing to understand...

...how anyone could ever think that someone who SAVES and INVESTS money is--in any way--bad.

Someone who works hard--while saving and investing their money--is doing all of the right things.

I'm astounded that anyone would characterize any such person as "a parasite."

That would be bizarre and outrageous.

Maybe such a person needs to pick up a copy of "The Millionaire Next Door."

[HamdenRice]

13. I'm not saying that. I'm asking. But look around DU the last few days. nt

[CoffeeCat]

21. Oh, I know...

I haven't seen the DU comments that prompted your OP, but I was responding
to anyone who would make such a comment.

I know you weren't suggesting that about the community-college professor in your example. :)

I guess I just have to wonder...what have we become? People who live conservatively and
save/invest their money--instead of blowing it on lavish vacations, more Pottery Barn
and a television that covers and entire wall--are seen as bad, by some?

The circle drives of our suburbs have become America's joke. So many people competing
with each other and accumulating things, trinkets and status symbols that they cannot
afford.

If we want to judge someone--let's throw a few stones at the Biff and Muffy--who
both work and have about $30,000 in credit card debt, 2 cars that they're leasing for
a combined total of $1,100 a month and a $300,000 mortgage that they can't afford.
They save nothing--even though they make a combined six-figure salary--because they'd
rather impress the neighbors with their $3,000 grill that is the size of a small car.

We've got our priorities out of whack in this country, and it's about to come crashing
down all around us.

God bless the college professor who has had the good sense to invest wisely and spend
responsibly. He's the HERO in all of this--because he didn't capitulate to the rampant
hyper-consumerism that has metastasized in this country.

Anyone who hasn't lived beyond their means in the past 20 years, is a courageous trailblazer,
in my opinion. That's how down-the-drain our country is!

[HamdenRice]

24. I'm very encouraged by how much fat there is to trim, actually

We talk about an energy crisis, but teenagers drive to the malls of our suburbs and circle aimlessly, mindlessly looking at each other.

I live in NYC -- the far edge of the outer boroughs -- but even here, I walk and use buses and the subway to get everywhere. I have a car, but walk to the grocery store. It's just such an efficient way to live.

My cousins live in suburban Richmond, and they have to spend probably $1 on gas to buy $2 worth of milk. The suburbs (the real ones, not the fake Archie Bunker style subway suburb I live in) are crazy!

Btw, I always wanted to ask you, is Husb2Sparkles your husband?

Sorry if that is presumptuous.

[CoffeeCat]

26. Yes, the suburbs...

...have become bastions of silliness. I count myself in engaging in some of that silliness, but
at least we try to be aware of it, and change it!

No, Husb2Sparkles isn't my husband. I think his wife is a DUer though. I think I've seen
them posting about each other. :)

I applaud all of your walking and subway riding. That's so cool. I love those "Archie bunker" style
suburbs. So much character! Ahhh...I long for the days where you could walk to the corner grocer
or hardware store. Sounds like you've got that.

I'm in silly suburbia. It's too far to even walk to my children's school! Everyone drives...300 mothers descend
on this school, in their SUVs every day. It's nutty.

Hey, I appreciated your previous posts on finances, in particular the one about intra-bank borrowing that stopped
for a bit last week. Haven't heard a word about that from the MSM. Isn't that totally amazing????

[Junkdrawer]

12. Strawman. Believe it or not, that's not who Paulson is trying to save. n/t

[slipslidingaway]

18. Agree...

"Believe it or not, that's not who Paulson is trying to save."

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

19. See #17

[2speak]

14. skewed

you need to have a choice for invested in a system that was designed by crooks for crooks and furthering their goals and the tools for the demise of the American people. Like the moment we are in now supposedly and were in 1929.

[Coventina]

15. I can't believe some of the stuff I've been reading on DU recently

I can't even believe that you would even have to ask such a question.

I have 401k plans because that's what big companies have now, not traditional pension plans. It wasn't my choice to be a "leech" or a "parasite", unless you want to call my working for those companies a choice to become a leech or parasite. But, gee, I have this bad habit of trying to eat a few times a day.

I now have a job with absolutely NO provision for retirement at all. So all I have is what WAS in my 401k plans, plus whatever Social Security might be able to give me when I retire.

I barely make 5 digits a year.

But hordes of posters are super-pleased that I "gambled" and lost.

Just unbelievable.

These attitudes are not liberal or progressive.

[slipslidingaway]

16. If someone is invested mostly in stocks they need to realize

that the market can go sideways for a number of years.

Take a look at a long term chart and note the period of the 1960's, 1970's and early 1980's, unfortunately too many people remember only the 80's and 90's.

:shrug:

http://stockcharts.com/charts/historical/djia1900.html

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

17. Change the example to, let's say, Hank Paulson.

Different answer.

[HamdenRice]

27. So far: 8% think that a community college prof with TIAA CREF is a bloodsucking

capitalist parasite.

Interesting.